Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I can't resist either. I must bring closure to part of this thread, just in case somebody has a time machine accident or stumbles into a worm-hole and finds themself back in 1986. :-) There were several ways to eject a disk on a Mac. 1) Select the disk icon and choose Put Away. 2) Select the disk and choose Command-e or Eject. (Newer Finder versions) 3) Press Command-Shift-1. 4) Drag the icon to the trash. If the normal methods weren't working, you would just hold down the mouse button when you started up the computer. The paper clip was a last resort for cases like a dead power supply. If a disk got corrupted, the usual problem was a corrupted "desktop" file. That's the hidden file with the disk content database. To rebuild this file, you held down the Command (pretzel) and Option keys when you inserted the disk. You'd be asked if you wanted to rebuild the desktop file. Click OK, and most of the time you were back in business. It goes to Jeremy's point -- to get the best results from a tool, you need to learn as much about it as you can. E-mail lists like this help make that easier today than it was in 1986. Steve
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I can't resist either. I must bring closure to part of this thread, just in case somebody has a time machine accident or stumbles into a worm-hole and finds themself back in 1986. :-) There were several ways to eject a disk on a Mac. 1) Select the disk icon and choose Put Away. 2) Select the disk and choose Command-e or Eject. (Newer Finder versions) 3) Press Command-Shift-1. 4) Drag the icon to the trash. If the normal methods weren't working, you would just hold down the mouse button when you started up the computer. The paper clip was a last resort for cases like a dead power supply. If a disk got corrupted, the usual problem was a corrupted "desktop" file. That's the hidden file with the disk content database. To rebuild this file, you held down the Command (pretzel) and Option keys when you inserted the disk. You'd be asked if you wanted to rebuild the desktop file. Click OK, and most of the time you were back in business. It goes to Jeremy's point -- to get the best results from a tool, you need to learn as much about it as you can. E-mail lists like this help make that easier today than it was in 1986. Steve ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
"If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job..." This is what makes America great! Bravo! Rick -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McDaniel Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:54 AM To: Jeremy H. Griffith; framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) "If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job..." (Standing ovation)...Kelly. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Jeremy H. Griffith Sent: Thu 4/16/2009 6:46 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:13:06 -0400, Jim Owens wrote: >Nancy mentioned that her client insists on Webworks 7, so all other >options are moot. > >Without knowing anything about the situation, I'd still venture that >it's not in her client's interest to use something that's been >discontinued. Can they be talked into a more sensible decision? I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as kmcdan...@pavtech.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/kmcdaniel%40pavtech. com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as rmelan...@spirecorp.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/rmelanson%40spirecor p.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
True. At least not until I get a bag of marshmallows and a pointed stick. =D *scampers off* Nadine > And you *don't* want to get me started... ;-) > > -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. > http://www.omsys.com/ > >
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Tell us another story from the old days, Grandpa. Nadine, who also could not resist ;-) Jeremy H. Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:32:12 -0600, Patrick Fortino > wrote: > > >> But imagine it's 1986 and you are in a computer store looking at >> computers. >> > > I can't resist. ;-) In 1986, I was working at a company that > had pretty much standardized on Macs. People loved them. I had > one of the older DOS boxes, with a special drive that allowed > it to read and write Mac disks (for conversion purposes). Macs > were so "special" other machines couldn't read the disks at all, > even at the record level, much less write to them. > > >> One the hand, you have DOS with it's blinking cursor waiting for >> instructions from you. If only you knew what those instructions were. >> > > Yes, it did call for knowing what you were doing. ;-) But > so did the Mac. How long did it take *you* to figure out that > the way to eject a floppy, other than the paperclip taped to > every Mac, was to drag it to the Trash??? This was intuitive? > > >> On the other hand, you have a Mac Plus, it's friendly face and graphic >> interface inviting you to experiment. Both computers will pretty much >> do what you want, the big difference being ease of use and cost. Macs >> were easier to use and cost a LOT more (I'm not trying to start a >> windows v mac battle here: I use both and think they are now pretty >> even on ease of use). >> > > Back then, Macs had another interesting feature. If anything > went wrong during a write to the floppy, a daily event, the > entire disk became unusable. You discovered this the next time > you inserted your wonderful project, and the Mac offered to > format the "damaged" disk for you. You could literally hear > the screams from one end of the office to the other. > > So on that DOS box, I studied the Mac filesystem on the disks. > After a while I worked out the rules for it (Apple wouldn't > tell you, unlike, say, IBM), and wrote a simple program to > fix up a very common (and harmless) error made by the Mac if > it wasn't totally done with the disk before it was removed. > (It wasn't updating the free list until then, so a block just > written would be in both the used and free lists, and the Mac > threw up its hands. I just removed any used blocks from the > free list and updated it.) > > After a while there was a steady stream of folks with tearstained > faces gingerly clutching a floppy coming to my desk. It took a > few seconds for my program to fix them up. They went back to > work on the easier-to-use system... much happier. > > My point? It's *not* that easier is worse. It's that every > tool has its use, and if you master them all, you are better > off than those who limit themselves to one. Even if you think > it's the easiest. ;-) > > And what did you expect, on Friday afternoon? > > -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. > http://www.omsys.com/ > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as generic668 at yahoo.ca. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > >
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
True. At least not until I get a bag of marshmallows and a pointed stick. =D *scampers off* Nadine > And you *don't* want to get me started... ;-) > > -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. > http://www.omsys.com/ > > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I'd second David's opinion and experience. And as a beneficiary of one of Jeremy's free licenses during the last tech crunch, it gave me a new tool and skill set and resulted in a steady string of license purchases from companies that I've worked for since then. Good product, great support, and even better people. Art Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:14 PM, David Spreadbury wrote: > Patrick, > My opinion, and experience, with Mif2Go is just the opposite. > > I have been using Mif2Go for several years and have learned how to use the > User's Guide. Yes, it takes a while to find things, sometimes, but this is > because Mif2Go can do a lot. > > If you install Mif2Go and just take the default configuration file, you will > get very close to the finished product. It won't have all the bells and > whistles that you are probably looking for, that's where the book comes in, > but you can get working HTML, CHM, Java, Oracle Help for Java, and others, > "Right Out of the Box"!! > > -Original Message- > From: framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com > [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Fortino > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:32 AM > To: framers > Subject: RE:Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) > > Opinions are like... noses. Everyone has one, but some are bigger than > others. > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. >
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:15:42 -0400, Writer wrote: >Tell us another story from the old days, Grandpa. > >Nadine, who also could not resist ;-) LOL! Actually, I may get to be a great-grandpa soon, if my grandson gets married as young as I did... And you *don't* want to get me started... ;-) -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 20:15:42 -0400, Writer wrote: >Tell us another story from the old days, Grandpa. > >Nadine, who also could not resist ;-) LOL! Actually, I may get to be a great-grandpa soon, if my grandson gets married as young as I did... And you *don't* want to get me started... ;-) -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Tell us another story from the old days, Grandpa. Nadine, who also could not resist ;-) Jeremy H. Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:32:12 -0600, Patrick Fortino > wrote: > > >> But imagine it's 1986 and you are in a computer store looking at >> computers. >> > > I can't resist. ;-) In 1986, I was working at a company that > had pretty much standardized on Macs. People loved them. I had > one of the older DOS boxes, with a special drive that allowed > it to read and write Mac disks (for conversion purposes). Macs > were so "special" other machines couldn't read the disks at all, > even at the record level, much less write to them. > > >> One the hand, you have DOS with it's blinking cursor waiting for >> instructions from you. If only you knew what those instructions were. >> > > Yes, it did call for knowing what you were doing. ;-) But > so did the Mac. How long did it take *you* to figure out that > the way to eject a floppy, other than the paperclip taped to > every Mac, was to drag it to the Trash??? This was intuitive? > > >> On the other hand, you have a Mac Plus, it's friendly face and graphic >> interface inviting you to experiment. Both computers will pretty much >> do what you want, the big difference being ease of use and cost. Macs >> were easier to use and cost a LOT more (I'm not trying to start a >> windows v mac battle here: I use both and think they are now pretty >> even on ease of use). >> > > Back then, Macs had another interesting feature. If anything > went wrong during a write to the floppy, a daily event, the > entire disk became unusable. You discovered this the next time > you inserted your wonderful project, and the Mac offered to > format the "damaged" disk for you. You could literally hear > the screams from one end of the office to the other. > > So on that DOS box, I studied the Mac filesystem on the disks. > After a while I worked out the rules for it (Apple wouldn't > tell you, unlike, say, IBM), and wrote a simple program to > fix up a very common (and harmless) error made by the Mac if > it wasn't totally done with the disk before it was removed. > (It wasn't updating the free list until then, so a block just > written would be in both the used and free lists, and the Mac > threw up its hands. I just removed any used blocks from the > free list and updated it.) > > After a while there was a steady stream of folks with tearstained > faces gingerly clutching a floppy coming to my desk. It took a > few seconds for my program to fix them up. They went back to > work on the easier-to-use system... much happier. > > My point? It's *not* that easier is worse. It's that every > tool has its use, and if you master them all, you are better > off than those who limit themselves to one. Even if you think > it's the easiest. ;-) > > And what did you expect, on Friday afternoon? > > -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. > http://www.omsys.com/ > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as generic...@yahoo.ca. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:32:12 -0600, Patrick Fortino wrote: >But imagine it's 1986 and you are in a computer store looking at >computers. I can't resist. ;-) In 1986, I was working at a company that had pretty much standardized on Macs. People loved them. I had one of the older DOS boxes, with a special drive that allowed it to read and write Mac disks (for conversion purposes). Macs were so "special" other machines couldn't read the disks at all, even at the record level, much less write to them. >One the hand, you have DOS with it's blinking cursor waiting for >instructions from you. If only you knew what those instructions were. Yes, it did call for knowing what you were doing. ;-) But so did the Mac. How long did it take *you* to figure out that the way to eject a floppy, other than the paperclip taped to every Mac, was to drag it to the Trash??? This was intuitive? >On the other hand, you have a Mac Plus, it's friendly face and graphic >interface inviting you to experiment. Both computers will pretty much >do what you want, the big difference being ease of use and cost. Macs >were easier to use and cost a LOT more (I'm not trying to start a >windows v mac battle here: I use both and think they are now pretty >even on ease of use). Back then, Macs had another interesting feature. If anything went wrong during a write to the floppy, a daily event, the entire disk became unusable. You discovered this the next time you inserted your wonderful project, and the Mac offered to format the "damaged" disk for you. You could literally hear the screams from one end of the office to the other. So on that DOS box, I studied the Mac filesystem on the disks. After a while I worked out the rules for it (Apple wouldn't tell you, unlike, say, IBM), and wrote a simple program to fix up a very common (and harmless) error made by the Mac if it wasn't totally done with the disk before it was removed. (It wasn't updating the free list until then, so a block just written would be in both the used and free lists, and the Mac threw up its hands. I just removed any used blocks from the free list and updated it.) After a while there was a steady stream of folks with tearstained faces gingerly clutching a floppy coming to my desk. It took a few seconds for my program to fix them up. They went back to work on the easier-to-use system... much happier. My point? It's *not* that easier is worse. It's that every tool has its use, and if you master them all, you are better off than those who limit themselves to one. Even if you think it's the easiest. ;-) And what did you expect, on Friday afternoon? -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 10:32:12 -0600, Patrick Fortino wrote: >But imagine it's 1986 and you are in a computer store looking at >computers. I can't resist. ;-) In 1986, I was working at a company that had pretty much standardized on Macs. People loved them. I had one of the older DOS boxes, with a special drive that allowed it to read and write Mac disks (for conversion purposes). Macs were so "special" other machines couldn't read the disks at all, even at the record level, much less write to them. >One the hand, you have DOS with it's blinking cursor waiting for >instructions from you. If only you knew what those instructions were. Yes, it did call for knowing what you were doing. ;-) But so did the Mac. How long did it take *you* to figure out that the way to eject a floppy, other than the paperclip taped to every Mac, was to drag it to the Trash??? This was intuitive? >On the other hand, you have a Mac Plus, it's friendly face and graphic >interface inviting you to experiment. Both computers will pretty much >do what you want, the big difference being ease of use and cost. Macs >were easier to use and cost a LOT more (I'm not trying to start a >windows v mac battle here: I use both and think they are now pretty >even on ease of use). Back then, Macs had another interesting feature. If anything went wrong during a write to the floppy, a daily event, the entire disk became unusable. You discovered this the next time you inserted your wonderful project, and the Mac offered to format the "damaged" disk for you. You could literally hear the screams from one end of the office to the other. So on that DOS box, I studied the Mac filesystem on the disks. After a while I worked out the rules for it (Apple wouldn't tell you, unlike, say, IBM), and wrote a simple program to fix up a very common (and harmless) error made by the Mac if it wasn't totally done with the disk before it was removed. (It wasn't updating the free list until then, so a block just written would be in both the used and free lists, and the Mac threw up its hands. I just removed any used blocks from the free list and updated it.) After a while there was a steady stream of folks with tearstained faces gingerly clutching a floppy coming to my desk. It took a few seconds for my program to fix them up. They went back to work on the easier-to-use system... much happier. My point? It's *not* that easier is worse. It's that every tool has its use, and if you master them all, you are better off than those who limit themselves to one. Even if you think it's the easiest. ;-) And what did you expect, on Friday afternoon? -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Patrick, My opinion, and experience, with Mif2Go is just the opposite. I have been using Mif2Go for several years and have learned how to use the User's Guide. Yes, it takes a while to find things, sometimes, but this is because Mif2Go can do a lot. If you install Mif2Go and just take the default configuration file, you will get very close to the finished product. It won't have all the bells and whistles that you are probably looking for, that's where the book comes in, but you can get working HTML, CHM, Java, Oracle Help for Java, and others, "Right Out of the Box"!! -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Fortino Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:32 AM To: framers Subject: RE:Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) Opinions are like... noses. Everyone has one, but some are bigger than others.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Just charge "them" the time you spend (waste) on doing the job without the right tools. I'm sure you will come up with a figure which is a multiple of the price of MIF2Go (or even WebWorks ePublisher). Both MIF2Go and WebWorks ePublisher are GREAT value for money. There is no such thing as a free lunch, even when Jeremy is so generous as to offer one. ;-) Cheers Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Nancy Allison wrote: > Jeremy wrote: > > > I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it > > appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" > > to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have > > to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, > > project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it > > with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. > > > Right you are! Webworks 7.0 Standard simply chops up the Framemaker file > into HTML files at the level you specify (ChapTitle, Heading1, Heading2) and > also saves all your graphics as .gif files with major color and pixellation > problems (and also restores all scaled drawings to their original, in some > cases immense, proportions). > > You then load all these files into HTML Help Workshop and manually create a > TOC, which includes typing in a name for each book and topic (I have only a > couple hundred HTML files, so this didn't take too long. Not in comparison > to the project I have coming up, anyway . . . ) > > Now I am trying to find out why my Note, Caution, and Warning icon > graphics have become as big as tablecloths and what I can do about them. > > I see so many things I could make so much better if I had the time and the > right tools, but alas, it is not to be. > > But wait! Jeremy wrote: > > If the client is merely trying to save money by using a > "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody > should have to go through that process to keep a job... > > -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. > http://www.omsys.com/ > > Jeremy, do you really mean it? I would be thrilled. I think I could > convince them to accept it. I think. > > --Nancy > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as yves.barbion at gmail.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/yves.barbion%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. >
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I'd second David's opinion and experience. And as a beneficiary of one of Jeremy's free licenses during the last tech crunch, it gave me a new tool and skill set and resulted in a steady string of license purchases from companies that I've worked for since then. Good product, great support, and even better people. Art Art Campbell art.campb...@gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 5:14 PM, David Spreadbury wrote: > Patrick, > My opinion, and experience, with Mif2Go is just the opposite. > > I have been using Mif2Go for several years and have learned how to use the > User's Guide. Yes, it takes a while to find things, sometimes, but this is > because Mif2Go can do a lot. > > If you install Mif2Go and just take the default configuration file, you will > get very close to the finished product. It won't have all the bells and > whistles that you are probably looking for, that's where the book comes in, > but you can get working HTML, CHM, Java, Oracle Help for Java, and others, > "Right Out of the Box"!! > > -Original Message- > From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com > [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Fortino > Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:32 AM > To: framers > Subject: RE:Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) > > Opinions are like... noses. Everyone has one, but some are bigger than > others. > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campb...@gmail.com. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Patrick, My opinion, and experience, with Mif2Go is just the opposite. I have been using Mif2Go for several years and have learned how to use the User's Guide. Yes, it takes a while to find things, sometimes, but this is because Mif2Go can do a lot. If you install Mif2Go and just take the default configuration file, you will get very close to the finished product. It won't have all the bells and whistles that you are probably looking for, that's where the book comes in, but you can get working HTML, CHM, Java, Oracle Help for Java, and others, "Right Out of the Box"!! -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Fortino Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 11:32 AM To: framers Subject: RE:Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) Opinions are like... noses. Everyone has one, but some are bigger than others. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:37:06 -0500 (CDT), Nancy Allison wrote: >Jeremy, do you really mean it? I would be thrilled. Of course I mean it! The next two posts will contain the password and download instructions. (But we won't CC the list with those, sorry folks! If you're an unemployed TW, or an underemployed consultant, write to with subject Mif2Go and you can get one too. We've been doing that for years. ;-) >I think I could convince them to accept it. I think. They'd be fools not to agree to something that would save them a lot of money (for your extra time). But we already knew that about them. So you can always *tell* them you used WWP and did some "cleanup", and bill them accordingly, then use Mif2Go and do it all in an hour. When they have the group secretary do the next update, to save more money, they will find out what they were demanding. Perhaps. ;-) -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:37:06 -0500 (CDT), Nancy Allison wrote: >Jeremy, do you really mean it? I would be thrilled. Of course I mean it! The next two posts will contain the password and download instructions. (But we won't CC the list with those, sorry folks! If you're an unemployed TW, or an underemployed consultant, write to with subject Mif2Go and you can get one too. We've been doing that for years. ;-) >I think I could convince them to accept it. I think. They'd be fools not to agree to something that would save them a lot of money (for your extra time). But we already knew that about them. So you can always *tell* them you used WWP and did some "cleanup", and bill them accordingly, then use Mif2Go and do it all in an hour. When they have the group secretary do the next update, to save more money, they will find out what they were demanding. Perhaps. ;-) -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
"If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job..." This is what makes America great! Bravo! Rick -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com [mailto:framers-bounces at lists.frameusers.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McDaniel Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 5:54 AM To: Jeremy H. Griffith; framers at lists.frameusers.com Subject: RE: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) "If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job..." (Standing ovation)...Kelly. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Jeremy H. Griffith Sent: Thu 4/16/2009 6:46 PM To: framers at lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:13:06 -0400, Jim Owens wrote: >Nancy mentioned that her client insists on Webworks 7, so all other >options are moot. > >Without knowing anything about the situation, I'd still venture that >it's not in her client's interest to use something that's been >discontinued. Can they be talked into a more sensible decision? I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as kmcdaniel at pavtech.com. Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/kmcdaniel%40pavtech. com Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as rmelanson at spirecorp.com. Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/rmelanson%40spirecor p.com Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Opinions are like... noses. Everyone has one, but some are bigger than others. I respectfully disagree with SOME of the webworks bashing. - It's true that Webworks has the worst support...on the planet. In fact, I wouldn't even call it support. Example, if you have trouble installing webworks, expect to pay for a support case to get help. What? Yes, you heard me correctly. And their installation instructions are lousy and obviously missing key information: specifically, no mention of the fact that your install will fail if you have multiple versions of frame on your machine, something I assume is pretty common with Frame users. - the user guide is more like a functional specification than a user guide; it tells you about every function the program has, it just doesn't tell you how you might use them in the REAL world. - They have a Draconian licensing structure. A real PIA. - Webworks is a company I love to hate. If there were anything better and easier to use, I'd buy it in a minute. Which leads to my disagreement. I don't think you can beat epublisher pro for ease-of-use. If you need to convert a frame doc AND you want to have a single source for content, and you have one day, epub will get you there quite nicely. There is no doubt that webworks software is a little quirky, but I've used it since 1998 and epub is a great improvement and VERY easy to use. Example: I had a project with an engineering firm that wanted to convert a large suite of documents to html format, several thousand pages in all. Also, they wanted to be able to maintain this on their own once I got everything set up. On the one hand, I could save them a LOT of money up front by buying Mif2go, and I downloaded it and spent several days reading and scratching my head. Sure, it would work. But imagine it's 1986 and you are in a computer store looking at computers. One the hand, you have DOS with it's blinking cursor waiting for instructions from you. If only you knew what those instructions were. On the other hand, you have a Mac Plus, it's friendly face and graphic interface inviting you to experiment. Both computers will pretty much do what you want, the big difference being ease of use and cost. Macs were easier to use and cost a LOT more (I'm not trying to start a windows v mac battle here: I use both and think they are now pretty even on ease of use). So, if you are a techie, the kind of person who likes UNIX command line, perl script, and is familiar with java scripts and code, you can probably get mif2go to do what you want, but it will take TIME and time = $. If you are in a big hurry, or prefer a program that will give you great conversions, from scratch, in about 3 hours, epublisher is a better bet. Money = Saved Time. For the engineering firm, I chose epublisher pro. If figured the days or weeks it would take us to figure out mif2go would offset the cost of webworks publisher. I don't even consider Robo Help as it's not really a single source solution and I've ALWAYS hated the program's interface. I don't even like the name ;) -- Pat Fortino writenowdesign.com >>| - Website Design - Joomla Website Design - Ecommerce Websites - Technical Writing Get Firefox, a Safer, Faster, and Better Browser
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I'm surprised with your install comments. I had no problem installing the last version of ePub, and I had two versions of FM on my computer. Do you mean updates or fresh installation? I've never had to call about support, but WW is pretty responsive to questions on the Yahoo wwp user group. But you are right about their documentation. Considering who their target market is, they could/should do a lot better than that. I think they rely a bit too heavily on actual users creating and uploading articles to their wiki. Nadine --- On Fri, 4/17/09, Patrick Fortino wrote: > From: Patrick Fortino > Subject: RE:Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) > To: "framers" > Received: Friday, April 17, 2009, 12:32 PM > Opinions are like... noses. Everyone has one, but some are > bigger than > others. > > I respectfully disagree with SOME of the webworks bashing. > > - It's true that Webworks has the worst support...on > the planet. In > fact, I wouldn't even call it support. Example, if you > have trouble > installing webworks, expect to pay for a support case to > get help. > What? Yes, you heard me correctly. And their installation > instructions > are lousy and obviously missing key information: > specifically, no > mention of the fact that your install will fail if you have > multiple > versions of frame on your machine, something I assume is > pretty common > with Frame users. > > - the user guide is more like a functional specification > than a user > guide; it tells you about every function the program has, > it just > doesn't tell you how you might use them in the REAL > world. > > - They have a Draconian licensing structure. A real PIA.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Nancy Allison wrote: > I see so many things I could make so much better if I had the time and the > right tools, but alas, it is not to be. > > But wait! Jeremy wrote: > >> If the client is merely trying to save money by using a >> "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody >> should have to go through that process to keep a job... > > Jeremy, do you really mean it? I would be thrilled. I think I could convince > them to accept it. I think. He means it. Jeremy is one of the most stand-up guys you could ever hope to meet. -- Lin Sims
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Jeremy wrote: > I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it > appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" > to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have > to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, > project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it > with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. Right you are! Webworks 7.0 Standard simply chops up the Framemaker file into HTML files at the level you specify (ChapTitle, Heading1, Heading2) and also saves all your graphics as .gif files with major color and pixellation problems (and also restores all scaled drawings to their original, in some cases immense, proportions). You then load all these files into HTML Help Workshop and manually create a TOC, which includes typing in a name for each book and topic (I have only a couple hundred HTML files, so this didn't take too long. Not in comparison to the project I have coming up, anyway . . . ) Now I am trying to find out why my Note, Caution, and Warning icon graphics have become as big as tablecloths and what I can do about them. I see so many things I could make so much better if I had the time and the right tools, but alas, it is not to be. But wait! Jeremy wrote: If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ Jeremy, do you really mean it? I would be thrilled. I think I could convince them to accept it. I think. --Nancy
Re: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Just charge "them" the time you spend (waste) on doing the job without the right tools. I'm sure you will come up with a figure which is a multiple of the price of MIF2Go (or even WebWorks ePublisher). Both MIF2Go and WebWorks ePublisher are GREAT value for money. There is no such thing as a free lunch, even when Jeremy is so generous as to offer one. ;-) Cheers Yves Barbion www.scripto.nu On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 3:37 PM, Nancy Allison wrote: > Jeremy wrote: > > > I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it > > appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" > > to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have > > to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, > > project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it > > with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. > > > Right you are! Webworks 7.0 Standard simply chops up the Framemaker file > into HTML files at the level you specify (ChapTitle, Heading1, Heading2) and > also saves all your graphics as .gif files with major color and pixellation > problems (and also restores all scaled drawings to their original, in some > cases immense, proportions). > > You then load all these files into HTML Help Workshop and manually create a > TOC, which includes typing in a name for each book and topic (I have only a > couple hundred HTML files, so this didn't take too long. Not in comparison > to the project I have coming up, anyway . . . ) > > Now I am trying to find out why my Note, Caution, and Warning icon > graphics have become as big as tablecloths and what I can do about them. > > I see so many things I could make so much better if I had the time and the > right tools, but alas, it is not to be. > > But wait! Jeremy wrote: > > If the client is merely trying to save money by using a > "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody > should have to go through that process to keep a job... > > -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. > http://www.omsys.com/ > > Jeremy, do you really mean it? I would be thrilled. I think I could > convince them to accept it. I think. > > --Nancy > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as yves.barb...@gmail.com. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/yves.barbion%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 9:37 AM, Nancy Allison wrote: > I see so many things I could make so much better if I had the time and the > right tools, but alas, it is not to be. > > But wait! Jeremy wrote: > >> If the client is merely trying to save money by using a >> "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody >> should have to go through that process to keep a job... > > Jeremy, do you really mean it? I would be thrilled. I think I could convince > them to accept it. I think. He means it. Jeremy is one of the most stand-up guys you could ever hope to meet. -- Lin Sims ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Jeremy wrote: > I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it > appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" > to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have > to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, > project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it > with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. Right you are! Webworks 7.0 Standard simply chops up the Framemaker file into HTML files at the level you specify (ChapTitle, Heading1, Heading2) and also saves all your graphics as .gif files with major color and pixellation problems (and also restores all scaled drawings to their original, in some cases immense, proportions). You then load all these files into HTML Help Workshop and manually create a TOC, which includes typing in a name for each book and topic (I have only a couple hundred HTML files, so this didn't take too long. Not in comparison to the project I have coming up, anyway . . . ) Now I am trying to find out why my Note, Caution, and Warning icon graphics have become as big as tablecloths and what I can do about them. I see so many things I could make so much better if I had the time and the right tools, but alas, it is not to be. But wait! Jeremy wrote: If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ Jeremy, do you really mean it? I would be thrilled. I think I could convince them to accept it. I think. --Nancy ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
"If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job..." (Standing ovation)...Kelly. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Jeremy H. Griffith Sent: Thu 4/16/2009 6:46 PM To: framers at lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:13:06 -0400, Jim Owens wrote: >Nancy mentioned that her client insists on Webworks 7, so all other >options are moot. > >Without knowing anything about the situation, I'd still venture that >it's not in her client's interest to use something that's been >discontinued. Can they be talked into a more sensible decision? I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as kmcdaniel at pavtech.com. Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/kmcdaniel%40pavtech.com Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
"If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job..." (Standing ovation)...Kelly. -Original Message- From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Jeremy H. Griffith Sent: Thu 4/16/2009 6:46 PM To: framers@lists.frameusers.com Subject: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:13:06 -0400, Jim Owens wrote: >Nancy mentioned that her client insists on Webworks 7, so all other >options are moot. > >Without knowing anything about the situation, I'd still venture that >it's not in her client's interest to use something that's been >discontinued. Can they be talked into a more sensible decision? I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as kmcdan...@pavtech.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/kmcdaniel%40pavtech.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:13:06 -0400, Jim Owens wrote: >Nancy mentioned that her client insists on Webworks 7, so all other >options are moot. > >Without knowing anything about the situation, I'd still venture that >it's not in her client's interest to use something that's been >discontinued. Can they be talked into a more sensible decision? I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
On Thu, 16 Apr 2009 11:13:06 -0400, Jim Owens wrote: >Nancy mentioned that her client insists on Webworks 7, so all other >options are moot. > >Without knowing anything about the situation, I'd still venture that >it's not in her client's interest to use something that's been >discontinued. Can they be talked into a more sensible decision? I just checked in the FM7 book Sarah O'Keefe wrote, and it appears Webworks *Standard*, the one Nancy was "required" to use, does not even support HTML Help at all. You'd have to use the regular HTML output, then create the index, toc, project file, alias and map files by hand, or at best do it with HTML Help Workshop, which is almost as bad. If the client is merely trying to save money by using a "free" tool, we'll *give* her a copy of Mif2Go. Nobody should have to go through that process to keep a job... -- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc. http://www.omsys.com/
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Nancy mentioned that her client insists on Webworks 7, so all other options are moot. Without knowing anything about the situation, I'd still venture that it's not in her client's interest to use something that's been discontinued. Can they be talked into a more sensible decision? Joseph Lorenzini wrote: . . . if you already have to use Acrobat Professional and > FrameMaker, then you might as well purchase the suite and get the most bang > for your buck (the combined cost of acrobat and FM equals the suite). While > RH may not be the best tool out there is certainly good enough for creating > a help system.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Hi Nancy, I would recommend purchasing the technical communications suite 2.0 and then using RoboHelp to create your help system. RoboHelp has built-in functionality to import FrameMaker books directly into RoboHelp projects and then generate HTML files from the Frame files in the book. I have done this myself successfully, and as a bonus you can create Adobe AIR applications for your help system as well. Now there's a couple caveats to this recommendation. I am NOT suggesting that RoboHelp is the best HAT out there, Mif2go is an excellent tool as is Madcap Flare. However, if you already have to use Acrobat Professional and FrameMaker, then you might as well purchase the suite and get the most bang for your buck (the combined cost of acrobat and FM equals the suite). While RH may not be the best tool out there is certainly good enough for creating a help system. On the other hand, if you aren't using FM and Acrobat professional, then my advice may not appply. -- Sincerely, Joseph Lorenzini
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Nancy mentioned that her client insists on Webworks 7, so all other options are moot. Without knowing anything about the situation, I'd still venture that it's not in her client's interest to use something that's been discontinued. Can they be talked into a more sensible decision? Joseph Lorenzini wrote: . . . if you already have to use Acrobat Professional and > FrameMaker, then you might as well purchase the suite and get the most bang > for your buck (the combined cost of acrobat and FM equals the suite). While > RH may not be the best tool out there is certainly good enough for creating > a help system. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Hi Nancy, I would recommend purchasing the technical communications suite 2.0 and then using RoboHelp to create your help system. RoboHelp has built-in functionality to import FrameMaker books directly into RoboHelp projects and then generate HTML files from the Frame files in the book. I have done this myself successfully, and as a bonus you can create Adobe AIR applications for your help system as well. Now there's a couple caveats to this recommendation. I am NOT suggesting that RoboHelp is the best HAT out there, Mif2go is an excellent tool as is Madcap Flare. However, if you already have to use Acrobat Professional and FrameMaker, then you might as well purchase the suite and get the most bang for your buck (the combined cost of acrobat and FM equals the suite). While RH may not be the best tool out there is certainly good enough for creating a help system. On the other hand, if you aren't using FM and Acrobat professional, then my advice may not appply. -- Sincerely, Joseph Lorenzini ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I second John's views, and to some extent Zoe's. Mif2GO is a great tool, and it's priced right. If you want to pay a lot more, you could consider ePublisher. People seem to like it, and XML-based publishing is definitely the way of the future. WWP 7 Standard Edition is obsolete. Don't waste your time learning it. John Sgammato wrote: > We abandoned WebWorks in favor of Mif2Go a couple of years ago.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
We abandoned WebWorks in favor of Mif2Go a couple of years ago. Mif2Go can do more things and is much cheaper. It doesn't look as slick and was harder to learn to the 80% mark, but WebWorks always had some bizarre things that I never did get used to. Mif2Go has awesome support, which WebWorks never could say when I was using it. After switching to Mif2Go I was able to add some additional deliverables that I think WebWorks could not produce, like an images-only library that Sales uses instead of pestering me for screenshots, and MS Word output that I am using to set up kits for the customer to use when rolling out our product to end-users. The biggest drawback is the (virtual lack of a) user interface. Once you grok how it all works and you get used to using the massive, comprehensive user guide, then you can work miracles with it. IMO the bottom line was the initial learning curve for the rational Mif2Go was well worth it compared to the irrational (to me) WebWorks weirdnesses, like that annoying splash screen. ymmv, etc john From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Nancy Allison Sent: Wed 4/15/2009 9:38 AM Cc: framers at frameusers.com Subject: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it is again, slightly improved: At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use Webworks Standard Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of curiosity, is WebWorks still in common use? Has it been surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much effort to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as really immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. --Nancy ___ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as jsgammato at imprivata.com. Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jsgammato%40imprivata.com Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
WW hasn't shipped with Frame for two releases; the publishers have changed the name and product significantly with ePublisher. And as far as Standard WW goes, it doesn't support modified templates, so it's of limited usefulness. And I don't think it was ever in common use -- it was a freebie from a third party that Adobe threw into the package as a stop-gap until it got its act together to provide a stronger tool. I wouldn't bother learning it at this point unless an employer who hasn't moved forward requires it. Either RoboHelp (as in Tech Comm Suite) or MIF2Go would be much more current, appropriate, and functional. Art Art Campbell art.campbell at gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Nancy Allison wrote: > Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it is again, slightly > improved: > > > At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use Webworks Standard > Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of curiosity, is WebWorks still in > common use? Has it been surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much > effort to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as really > immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. > > Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. > > --Nancy > ___ > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campbell at gmail.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. >
Re: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it is again, slightly improved: At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use Webworks Standard Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of curiosity, is WebWorks still in common use? Has it been surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much effort to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as really immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. --Nancy ___
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I second John's views, and to some extent Zoe's. Mif2GO is a great tool, and it's priced right. If you want to pay a lot more, you could consider ePublisher. People seem to like it, and XML-based publishing is definitely the way of the future. WWP 7 Standard Edition is obsolete. Don't waste your time learning it. John Sgammato wrote: > We abandoned WebWorks in favor of Mif2Go a couple of years ago. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I'm with Zoë. I've been using WW/ePublisher for quite some time. I've also used RoboHelp X5, but it's not the appropriate tool for me. The yahoo user group that Zoë mentioned is a fantastic resource, and you usually get your questions answered very quickly. The WW folks also participate in that group. Once you've set up a project, and got it looking the way that you want it to look, ePublisher provides a good inline, just-click-a-button process, IMHO. WW has also announced that they are adding the ability to format PDF output from within ePublisher. If they pull that one off (and it meets my expectations of how it should work), we'll eat like kings (*nyuck*). Nadine --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Zoe Lawson wrote: > From: Zoe Lawson > Subject: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) > To: "Nancy Allison" > Cc: fram...@frameusers.com > Received: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 9:56 AM > To the best of my knowledge, help conversion tools produced > by the Quadralay/Webworks company (they've rebranded, > and I never remember what their 'real' name is) are > still in common use. > > However, I do not believe that Quadralay/Webworks is really > actively supporting 7.0 that much (or if they are, for very > much longer). > > In version 9 (rebranded to ePublisher), they completely > changed their paradigm, so most anything you'd learn in > 7.0 would not be useful in current versions of ePublisher > (current version is 2008.4). > > Also, you can not edit your styles, etc. with Standard > Edition. It will convert your Frame to help and that's > it, you can't really customize at all. > > I strongly believe in ePubisher. The paradigm shift has > moved it towards a publishing engine, so you can point it at > FrameMaker, Word, XML, or combination of files and generate > output. If you're willing to learn XSL, you can > customize their output choices to do almost anything you > want. > > For more information about Webworks and ePublisher, poke > around on www.webworks.com and the yahoo user group, > wwp-users. There's also wiki.webworks.com which goes > into a lot of nitty gritty details about customizing > ePublisher. > > You can contact me off list if you have other questions. > > Zoë Lawson > > > > > > From: Nancy Allison > Cc: fram...@frameusers.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:38:25 AM > Subject: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) > > Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it > is again, slightly improved: > > > At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use > Webworks Standard Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of > curiosity, is WebWorks still in common use? Has it been > surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much effort > to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as > really immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. > > Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. > > --Nancy > ___ > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as > messalin...@yahoo.com. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/messalina17%40yahoo.com > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. > Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as > generic...@yahoo.ca. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. > Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
I'm with Zo?. I've been using WW/ePublisher for quite some time. I've also used RoboHelp X5, but it's not the appropriate tool for me. The yahoo user group that Zo? mentioned is a fantastic resource, and you usually get your questions answered very quickly. The WW folks also participate in that group. Once you've set up a project, and got it looking the way that you want it to look, ePublisher provides a good inline, just-click-a-button process, IMHO. WW has also announced that they are adding the ability to format PDF output from within ePublisher. If they pull that one off (and it meets my expectations of how it should work), we'll eat like kings (*nyuck*). Nadine --- On Wed, 4/15/09, Zoe Lawson wrote: > From: Zoe Lawson > Subject: Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) > To: "Nancy Allison" > Cc: framers at frameusers.com > Received: Wednesday, April 15, 2009, 9:56 AM > To the best of my knowledge, help conversion tools produced > by the Quadralay/Webworks company (they've rebranded, > and I never remember what their 'real' name is) are > still in common use. > > However, I do not believe that Quadralay/Webworks is really > actively supporting 7.0 that much (or if they are, for very > much longer). > > In version 9 (rebranded to ePublisher), they completely > changed their paradigm, so most anything you'd learn in > 7.0 would not be useful in current versions of ePublisher > (current version is 2008.4). > > Also, you can not edit your styles, etc. with Standard > Edition. It will convert your Frame to help and that's > it, you can't really customize at all. > > I strongly believe in ePubisher. The paradigm shift has > moved it towards a publishing engine, so you can point it at > FrameMaker, Word, XML, or combination of files and generate > output. If you're willing to learn XSL, you can > customize their output choices to do almost anything you > want. > > For more information about Webworks and ePublisher, poke > around on www.webworks.com and the yahoo user group, > wwp-users. There's also wiki.webworks.com which goes > into a lot of nitty gritty details about customizing > ePublisher. > > You can contact me off list if you have other questions. > > Zo? Lawson > > > > > > From: Nancy Allison > Cc: framers at frameusers.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:38:25 AM > Subject: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) > > Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it > is again, slightly improved: > > > At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use > Webworks Standard Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of > curiosity, is WebWorks still in common use? Has it been > surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much effort > to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as > really immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. > > Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. > > --Nancy > ___ > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as > messalina17 at yahoo.com. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/messalina17%40yahoo.com > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. > Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > > > > > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as > generic668 at yahoo.ca. > > Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/generic668%40yahoo.ca > > Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. > Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
To the best of my knowledge, help conversion tools produced by the Quadralay/Webworks company (they've rebranded, and I never remember what their 'real' name is) are still in common use. However, I do not believe that Quadralay/Webworks is really actively supporting 7.0 that much (or if they are, for very much longer). In version 9 (rebranded to ePublisher), they completely changed their paradigm, so most anything you'd learn in 7.0 would not be useful in current versions of ePublisher (current version is 2008.4). Also, you can not edit your styles, etc. with Standard Edition. It will convert your Frame to help and that's it, you can't really customize at all. I strongly believe in ePubisher. The paradigm shift has moved it towards a publishing engine, so you can point it at FrameMaker, Word, XML, or combination of files and generate output. If you're willing to learn XSL, you can customize their output choices to do almost anything you want. For more information about Webworks and ePublisher, poke around on www.webworks.com and the yahoo user group, wwp-users. There's also wiki.webworks.com which goes into a lot of nitty gritty details about customizing ePublisher. You can contact me off list if you have other questions. Zoë Lawson From: Nancy Allison Cc: fram...@frameusers.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:38:25 AM Subject: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it is again, slightly improved: At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use Webworks Standard Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of curiosity, is WebWorks still in common use? Has it been surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much effort to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as really immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. --Nancy ___ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as messalin...@yahoo.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/messalina17%40yahoo.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
To the best of my knowledge, help conversion tools produced by the Quadralay/Webworks company (they've rebranded, and I never remember what their 'real' name is) are still in common use. However, I do not believe that Quadralay/Webworks is really actively supporting 7.0 that much (or if they are, for very much longer). In version 9 (rebranded to ePublisher), they completely changed their paradigm, so most anything you'd learn in 7.0 would not be useful in current versions of ePublisher (current version is 2008.4). Also, you can not edit your styles, etc. with Standard Edition. It will convert your Frame to help and that's it, you can't really customize at all. I strongly believe in ePubisher. The paradigm shift has moved it towards a publishing engine, so you can point it at FrameMaker, Word, XML, or combination of files and generate output. If you're willing to learn XSL, you can customize their output choices to do almost anything you want. For more information about Webworks and ePublisher, poke around on www.webworks.com and the yahoo user group, wwp-users. There's also wiki.webworks.com which goes into a lot of nitty gritty details about customizing ePublisher. You can contact me off list if you have other questions. Zo? Lawson From: Nancy Allison Cc: framers at frameusers.com Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 9:38:25 AM Subject: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it is again, slightly improved: At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use Webworks Standard Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of curiosity, is WebWorks still in common use? Has it been surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much effort to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as really immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. --Nancy ___ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as messalina17 at yahoo.com. Send list messages to framers at lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscribe at lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/messalina17%40yahoo.com Send administrative questions to listadmin at frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
RE: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
We abandoned WebWorks in favor of Mif2Go a couple of years ago. Mif2Go can do more things and is much cheaper. It doesn't look as slick and was harder to learn to the 80% mark, but WebWorks always had some bizarre things that I never did get used to. Mif2Go has awesome support, which WebWorks never could say when I was using it. After switching to Mif2Go I was able to add some additional deliverables that I think WebWorks could not produce, like an images-only library that Sales uses instead of pestering me for screenshots, and MS Word output that I am using to set up kits for the customer to use when rolling out our product to end-users. The biggest drawback is the (virtual lack of a) user interface. Once you grok how it all works and you get used to using the massive, comprehensive user guide, then you can work miracles with it. IMO the bottom line was the initial learning curve for the rational Mif2Go was well worth it compared to the irrational (to me) WebWorks weirdnesses, like that annoying splash screen. ymmv, etc john From: framers-boun...@lists.frameusers.com on behalf of Nancy Allison Sent: Wed 4/15/2009 9:38 AM Cc: fram...@frameusers.com Subject: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher) Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it is again, slightly improved: At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use Webworks Standard Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of curiosity, is WebWorks still in common use? Has it been surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much effort to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as really immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. --Nancy ___ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as jsgamm...@imprivata.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/jsgammato%40imprivata.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Re: Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
WW hasn't shipped with Frame for two releases; the publishers have changed the name and product significantly with ePublisher. And as far as Standard WW goes, it doesn't support modified templates, so it's of limited usefulness. And I don't think it was ever in common use -- it was a freebie from a third party that Adobe threw into the package as a stop-gap until it got its act together to provide a stronger tool. I wouldn't bother learning it at this point unless an employer who hasn't moved forward requires it. Either RoboHelp (as in Tech Comm Suite) or MIF2Go would be much more current, appropriate, and functional. Art Art Campbell art.campb...@gmail.com "... In my opinion, there's nothing in this world beats a '52 Vincent and a redheaded girl." -- Richard Thompson No disclaimers apply. DoD 358 On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 9:38 AM, Nancy Allison wrote: > Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it is again, slightly > improved: > > > At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use Webworks Standard > Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of curiosity, is WebWorks still in > common use? Has it been surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much > effort to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as really > immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. > > Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. > > --Nancy > ___ > ___ > > > You are currently subscribed to Framers as art.campb...@gmail.com. > > Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. > > To unsubscribe send a blank email to > framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com > or visit > http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/art.campbell%40gmail.com > > Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit > http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info. > ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
Usage of WebWorks (ePublisher)
Sorry for sloppy subject line in my previous post. Here it is again, slightly improved: At this late date, I am getting my first chance to use Webworks Standard Edition 7.0 to create HTML Help. Out of curiosity, is WebWorks still in common use? Has it been surpassed by other tools? I'm wondering how much effort to put into learning this, or if it would be as wise as really immersing myself in an ancient copy of ForeHelp. Any knowledge on this topic greatly appreciated. --Nancy ___ ___ You are currently subscribed to Framers as arch...@mail-archive.com. Send list messages to fram...@lists.frameusers.com. To unsubscribe send a blank email to framers-unsubscr...@lists.frameusers.com or visit http://lists.frameusers.com/mailman/options/framers/archive%40mail-archive.com Send administrative questions to listad...@frameusers.com. Visit http://www.frameusers.com/ for more resources and info.
