[Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0
On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves r...@eurotux.com wrote: Steve McMahon wrote: My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome. This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor set of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity. I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0 instead of 3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes sense to me — so +1 on that decision. One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern along the way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm currently applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from the plone.org redesign along with a color-neutral design for the navigation and other UI elements. The goal is to make something that you can put the company logo on, and it looks relatively decent, no matter what your company colors are. This would make 4.0 seem fresh out of the box, make it look like an application from 2009, and let us ship with considerably more efficient/smaller CSS files. The risk would be that we need to do some IE6 testing on it, but that might not be a bad thing, since we know much more about IE6 workarounds at this point than we did when the original CSS was written. -- Alexander Limi · http://limi.net ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0
Alexander Limi wrote: On Tue, 05 May 2009 15:56:36 -0700, Ricardo Alves r...@eurotux.com wrote: Steve McMahon wrote: My only concern about calling Hanno's incremental change list 4.0 is that we don't suffer from big-number expectation syndrome. This is the biggest risk I guess, a major release with just a minor set of visible (UI) improvements, will bring bad publicity. I agree — this is the biggest risk in terms of calling it 4.0 instead of 3.5. The consensus to call the 2009 release 4.0 makes sense to me — so +1 on that decision. One way to mitigate this — and make Plone seem a bit more modern along the way — could be to apply the new typography/theme that I'm currently applying to trunk. This is essentially the typography from the plone.org redesign along with a color-neutral design for the navigation and other UI elements. The goal is to make something that you can put the company logo on, and it looks relatively decent, no matter what your company colors are. This would make 4.0 seem fresh out of the box, make it look like an application from 2009, and let us ship with considerably more efficient/smaller CSS files. The risk would be that we need to do some IE6 testing on it, but that might not be a bad thing, since we know much more about IE6 workarounds at this point than we did when the original CSS was written. I'd support this, *if* it follows the usual PLIP process and we actively encourage outside review from the get-go. That process may mean the theme change gets a thumbs-down. Personally, I think it's a good idea, but in the past, we've had a lack of commitment/follow-up with CSS/theme stuff, and a last-minute rush to put in dozens of template and CSS changes which then cause breakage in release candidates. We'd also need to find a way to not break all existing themes. A small visual refresh would be welcome, though. Plone is looking a bit last millenium. :-/ Martin -- Author of `Professional Plone Development`, a book for developers who want to work with Plone. See http://martinaspeli.net/plone-book ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
Re: [Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0
Can we please stop the cc-o-rama? Seeing the entire thread tree times is a bit much.. Previously Martin Aspeli wrote: I'd support this, *if* it follows the usual PLIP process and we actively encourage outside review from the get-go. That process may mean the theme change gets a thumbs-down. Personally, I think it's a good idea, but in the past, we've had a lack of commitment/follow-up with CSS/theme stuff, and a last-minute rush to put in dozens of template and CSS changes which then cause breakage in release candidates. +1 Wichert. -- Wichert Akkerman wich...@wiggy.netIt is simple to make things. http://www.wiggy.net/ It is hard to make things simple. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: [Plone-developers] The new Plone 4.0
On Sat, 09 May 2009 05:09:07 -0700, Martin Aspeli optilude+li...@gmail.com wrote: I'd support this, *if* it follows the usual PLIP process and we actively encourage outside review from the get-go. That process may mean the theme change gets a thumbs-down. Of course. We'd also need to find a way to not break all existing themes. It will break (ie. slightly change) themes that reuse parts of the original Plone CSS as part of their theme. Luckily, the fix is easy: make a copy of the old CSS in your product. Few themes do this anymore though — it's mostly for the editing/authoring bits, which would still work (although they will change slightly too). Again, very easy to copy the old CSS into your theme if you want to keep the old style. It's a x.0 release, so slight breakage like this shouldn't be a big issue. A small visual refresh would be welcome, though. Plone is looking a bit last millenium. :-/ Yup. -- Alexander Limi · http://limi.net ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: Re: Plone Messaging
On Tue, 05 May 2009 23:41:55 -0700, Matt Hamilton ma...@netsight.co.uk wrote: Now I know that Alex is often (and I hope you don't mind me saying this Alex) quite ambitious in his visions for Plone in some of these talks, but I think that is a good thing. :) That's spot on, my role isn't always to be correct, it's to show what potential we can realize if we do certain things, and why we want to do it. I know very well that a lot of the stuff we talk about ends up landing in a later release — but I have stopped worrying about scheduling. We've been at this for 8+ years, we have some of the best people in the business working on our product, and a healthy, fun community. That's what counts, and why I'm not worried. How that will now relate to the release manager type role I'm not sure. Ie. I think Hanno would be in a much better position to say what is or isn't upcoming. But I think Alex does a very good spokesperson (dare I say BDFL?) type role. I'm probably the de facto BDFL these days, backed up by Hanno, Martin, Laurence et al on the technical front, which I think is a good solution too. The vision for the product and the user experience is something that lends itself to a small group, technical leadership within a certain domain is easier to distribute. And I certainly think the structure we have now with release manager (with veto powers ;) + framework team is a really good solution. Even Mozilla is interested in how we do these things, and whether there's something they can learn from it. Alex is doing something at the Plone Symposium East for this: http://weblion.psu.edu/news/alexander-limi-to-open-plone-symposium-east-2009 And Geir is doing a similar talk at the European Symposium. It will also be the main focus of the Plone Conference 2009 talk, so it's good that we have these events a few months earlier to refine and update the message. I think this is a great avenue for communicating the message to the community on where Plone is going. One thing we could probably do better is to communicate this outwards. There's been a resurgence of interest from the press in Plone lately, so I'm hoping to get this stuff published in publications outside of just the Ploniverse too. -- Alexander Limi · http://limi.net ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
[Framework-Team] Re: [Evangelism] Re: Re: Plone Messaging
Documentation is still an issue and I think the board needs to consider hiring someone to manage that area (like we do our release manager). The documenation team is great and hard working but everyone has to work full-time and can only dedicate xx amount of time (I keep trying to contribute but time and life get in the way, which I know is true for everyone). Paying a manager for the documentation section isn't going to solve the root of the problem: we don't have enough people contributing correct documentation that is broad enough to apply to most use cases of Plone. If you want to pay someone to do documentation, pay them to write it, not to manage the section. ( and no, that is not a viable solution either) The majority of our doc Editors are doing a better job than anyone could have expected. I'm not inclined to change how we're operating until we've completed our current work. Plus, paying someone doesn't change the fact that we are busy with work and have lives outside of work and Plone. Doesn't really solve any of the issues we have with documentation, in my not so humble opinion. ___ Framework-Team mailing list Framework-Team@lists.plone.org http://lists.plone.org/mailman/listinfo/framework-team
