Re: [Frameworks] {Disarmed} Re: Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
The long films were made with an Auricon single system camera that records sync
sound directly onto the film (either optical or magnetic). This is what Warhol
used for the long take sound films and, if I'm not mistaken, also used for
films like Bike Boy, where there are loads of in-camera edits, resulting in
flash frames and blips on the track.
NIcky Hamlyn.
-Original Message-
From: Steve Polta stevepo...@yahoo.com
To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com
Sent: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 7:18
Subject: Re: [Frameworks] {Disarmed} Re: Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI /
Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
As I just posted, what Pip states is indeed the case. I'm sure this is
documented in some Warhol catalog somewhere down to the exact frame count but
the original footage used in SLEEP (i.e. not looped or repeated), in my
estimation, cannot be more than perhaps 20 minutes, if that.
Yes—the films consists of long sequences of the same shot being repeated over
and over again, in one case—and I certainly could be mistaken about this—I seem
to recall an entire 30 minute reel consisting of repetitions of the same shot,
definitely less than a minute. Each shot is, of course, very slow, involving
minimal motion. The entire film is a fairly high-contrast black-and-white with
each individual image in itself a striking study in bw photographic
composition. In addition to (occasional) on-screen motion (the sleeper shifts,
for example) or hand-held camera motion, some shots feature exposure changes
within the duration (e.g. it gets brighter or darker). Through the repetitions,
these abstract image qualities really emerge as essential the experience of the
film: the gentle slow shifts in the image become familiar and ones attention
shifts to them rather than the images pictorial content. And notably, all of
the motions and exposure changes mentioned above are minimal details and seem
more-or-less accidental or arbitrary (i.e. not deliberate), making their
significance as repeated elements all the more profound. Additionally,
occasional laboratory glitches (a surprise flare-out for example and, if I
recall correctly, printed-on splice marks) appear here and there as surprising
punctuation.
In this sense—and I'm just realizing this as a write this although to others it
may be obvious—the film very much is in line with Warhol's industrially
produced series paintings/screen printings. For example, on a trip to
DIA:Beacon in 2005 or '06 I saw an entire (huge) room dedicated to the display
of a Warhol work depicting an abstract shadow—dozens of this angular black
abstraction on variously colored grounds. The effect of them all together
vibrating in their similarity and differences was really really amazing and
much like the experience of SLEEP's slow-rolling repetitions (except, you know,
happening in time instead of space). Really amazing profound work and really
far beyond the (easy) stereotype of Warhol as a bored put-on artist...
Steve Polta
--- On Sun, 2/12/12, Pip Chodorov framewo...@re-voir.com wrote:
From: Pip Chodorov framewo...@re-voir.com
Subject: Re: [Frameworks] {Disarmed} Re: Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI /
Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com,
con...@buffalo.edu
Date: Sunday, February 12, 2012, 10:34 PM
I thought SLEEP was shot with just a few 100-ft loads, repeatedin the contact
printer to stretch it out to five hours and twentyminutes. Anyone have more
information?
-Pip
At 1:09 -0500 13/02/12, Damon wrote:
Between Giorno and P. Adams Sitney, thereare claims from both ends of the
spectrum (poet to historian) thatWarhol shot Sleep with 100' foot rolls.
Giorno evenclaims in the MoMA interview that Warhol was even hand winding
thecamera at the beginning of filming.
-Inline Attachment Follows-
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
[Frameworks] Vexing
I've also see the research that connects Satie with Warhol (my partner did research on Sleep), but can't fill in as I'm traveling. Ironic that a nice piece of curation is called impatient and pandering by people who can't read to the end of a paragraph. Chris who are the brain police? - Zappa On 2012-02-13, at 3:25 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: My reading of the announcement is that the Vexations concert in Providence is 45 minutes long, and that it precedes the screening. --Eric ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] {Disarmed} Re: Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
Regarding SLEEP: the definitive source on Warhol's filmmaking, Callie Angell, explains that SLEEP was indeed made with the Bolex using 100- ft. rolls, on which Warhol made multiple shots (i.e. not simply letting the full 100 feet run in one take as in the screen tests), which were subsequently optically printed and then edited together - the film is heavily edited, though it lacks the flashy, more jarring in-camera editing that Nicky mentions. As an example, Angell mentions that reel 5 of SLEEP has 133 splices, varying between shot lengths of 10-20 feet each repeated 10-20 times. Regarding projection speed: since correct projection speed is a matter of shooting speed, the technically correct projection speed of Warhol's silents is 24fps, since that's how fast he shot them. But of course he stipulated that they be shown at silent speed, which, again according to Angell, was re-standardized from 16 to 18fps around 1970 (according to her, to reduce noticeable flicker). Is there a record anywhere of Warhol specifically saying 16fps rather than just silent speed? I don't know the extent to which EITHER 16 or 18 fps was ever REALLY the standard; certainly during the silent era, both shooting and projection speed were so varied as to thoroughly complicate the idea of a standard.* Which is to say that making do with 18fps seems entirely legit. Warhol himself could be pretty cavalier about projection - the correct order of reels in THE CHELSEA GIRLS, for instance, has a history that begins with Warhol dropping the reels off to the projectionist and saying good luck. Best, Jonathan *of course, we're talking about 35mm in that case, but presumably the elusiveness of the standard was carried over into 16mm technology. On Feb 13, 2012, at 3:26 AM, nicky.ham...@talktalk.net wrote: The long films were made with an Auricon single system camera that records sync sound directly onto the film (either optical or magnetic). This is what Warhol used for the long take sound films and, if I'm not mistaken, also used for films like Bike Boy, where there are loads of in-camera edits, resulting in flash frames and blips on the track. NIcky Hamlyn. FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks Jonathan Walley Associate Professor of Cinema Denison University wall...@denison.edu ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
[Frameworks] Hermitage Film Program No.Ten - 2/16 - Brooklyn, NY
I'm posting this for the good folk at The Brother Elysium. * * Hermitage Film Program No. Ten ***Thursday February 16th, 8pm* *The Arm - 281 N7th St. Brooklyn NY* * * *We will be screening the following four films for this program:* * * James Benning - Chicago Loop 1976 16mm 8min Stan Brakhage - Two: Creeley / McClure 1965 16mm 5min Larry Jordan - Visions of a City 1957/78 16mm 8min Bruce Baillie - Mass for the Dakota Sioux 16mm 20min More information on the films listed here: http://thebrotherinelysium.tumblr.com/ Screening will begin shortly after 8pm. Seating is limited. Feel free to byob, etc. $5 Admission. The Arm is located on N7th Street between Havemeyer and Meeker. 2 blocks from the Bedford St. L train stop. -- www.ryanmarino.com www.imminentfrequencies.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
ok, I see the problem about the projectors. Guess I am a bit out of
touch about that situation these days.
I guess I was thinking of that story about Stan Brakhage who
apparently did not at all like the film at 24fps, but when he saw it
over again at silent speed {presumably 16fps (?) } it was a
revelation. I would want to see what I think he saw, to see for
myself.
Granted, the difference between 16fps and 18fps would probably not
concern Warhol, but Brakhage may be a different matter. The
difference apparently was enough for the industry to eventually
change over the projectors, and I am sure I could tell the
difference because of the nature of the flicker, not to say it is all
that critical to the upcoming showing, however, the sound is another
issue because then it becomes an expression or aesthetic assertion of
someone other than the artist, unless we have it on record that the
artist said play my film with whatever sound you want as part of
his intentions.
Myron Ort
On Feb 12, 2012, at 10:04 PM, David Tetzlaff wrote:
But if one is going to the trouble of presenting actual film, why
not round up a couple of the correct projectors
Easier said than done. If you're screening with dual projectors for
reel changes, they ought to have the same brightness and CT lamps
and the same focal length lenses, no? The folks in Providence have
figured out their space calls for a 1lens and a bright (i.e.
halogen lamp). I'm pretty sure there aren't any projectors with
halogen lamps that run at 16fps. So where exactly would you go to
find two 16fps projectors equipped with brand new 1000W
incandescent lamps and 1 lenses? The Eiki slim-line with the 18/24
pulley is a rare beast as it is. Eiki SLs came with 50hz/60Hz
pulleys stock, and the 18/24 pulleys had to be custom ordered.
Josh Guilford put out a post on Frameworks asking to borrow a
silent speed projector so they could have two projectors for their
performance. AFAIK, I was the only person who answered the request.
It wasn't like anybody said, Hey, the 18fps on your Eiki is too
fast, but I've got two 16fps projectors you can use instead or
but I know where you can borrow two 16fps projectors. These folks
have done their best to arrange a screening at 'silent speed', and
it's just absurd fault them for that being 18fps since thats the
closest thing they can find.
I also notice that while Nicky vaguely remembers using a 16/24
projector in the distant past, not one post has identified a
specific make and model of a projector that will do so, or even a
specific make and model of projector that runs at 16fps period and
might be found floating around somewhere.
I have the feeling that a lot of people have projected films at the
'silent speed' of their projectors, thinking it was 16fps when it
was actually 18fps, and never knowing the difference. The
difference between 16fps and 24fps is a lot: 150%. Between 16 and
18 not so much, only an eighth faster.
Of course, if Warhol shot Sleep on his Auricon with the 1200' foot
mag, then he shot it at 24fps. And if he wanted to project it at
silent speed to stretch the duration, I'm guessing he was happy to
take whatever the projectors available to him offered, and he
wouldn't have given a rat's ass if that was 18fps or 16fps.
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Vexing
I stand corrected. I see now from the original advertisement that the music performance is not simultaneous. I jumped to premature conclusions because I know there is a lot of that going on these days. On Feb 13, 2012, at 12:40 AM, ch...@signaltoground.com wrote: I've also see the research that connects Satie with Warhol (my partner did research on Sleep), but can't fill in as I'm traveling. Ironic that a nice piece of curation is called impatient and pandering by people who can't read to the end of a paragraph. Chris who are the brain police? - Zappa On 2012-02-13, at 3:25 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote: My reading of the announcement is that the Vexations concert in Providence is 45 minutes long, and that it precedes the screening. --Eric ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
Quoting Myron Ort z...@sonic.net:
ok, I see the problem about the projectors. Guess I am a bit out of
touch about that situation these days.
I guess I was thinking of that story about Stan Brakhage who
apparently did not at all like the film at 24fps, but when he saw it
over again at silent speed {presumably 16fps (?) } it was a
revelation.
As I wrote in another post in this very same thread, Brakhage always,
and often angrily, denied that there was any truth to this story. He
said it never happened.
Fred Camper
Chicago
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
huh, guess I missed that yesterday when I was hurrying out of the house.
How and why do stories like that get started anyway?
On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:55 AM, Fred Camper wrote:
Quoting Myron Ort z...@sonic.net:
ok, I see the problem about the projectors. Guess I am a bit out of
touch about that situation these days.
I guess I was thinking of that story about Stan Brakhage who
apparently did not at all like the film at 24fps, but when he saw it
over again at silent speed {presumably 16fps (?) } it was a
revelation.
As I wrote in another post in this very same thread, Brakhage always,
and often angrily, denied that there was any truth to this story. He
said it never happened.
Fred Camper
Chicago
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
Fred,
Is that erroneous story actually in print somewhere? I think that may
be how and why I even knew of it, and is this discrediting of the
story also in print somewhere? Probably should be.
Myron Ort
On Feb 13, 2012, at 9:55 AM, Fred Camper wrote:
Quoting Myron Ort z...@sonic.net:
ok, I see the problem about the projectors. Guess I am a bit out of
touch about that situation these days.
I guess I was thinking of that story about Stan Brakhage who
apparently did not at all like the film at 24fps, but when he saw it
over again at silent speed {presumably 16fps (?) } it was a
revelation.
As I wrote in another post in this very same thread, Brakhage always,
and often angrily, denied that there was any truth to this story. He
said it never happened.
Fred Camper
Chicago
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: How and why do stories like that get started anyway? That particular story got started because Jonas Mekas told it. It continues to be told because it's a good story, and it's lodged in the collective memory due to the problematic but always cited early literature on Warhol's filmmaking. --Eric ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
In which of the many books scattered around my house did I surely encounter that story? Myron Ort On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Eric Theise wrote: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: How and why do stories like that get started anyway? That particular story got started because Jonas Mekas told it. It continues to be told because it's a good story, and it's lodged in the collective memory due to the problematic but always cited early literature on Warhol's filmmaking. --Eric ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
Only you can answer that... On 2/13/12 10:35 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: In which of the many books scattered around my house did I surely encounter that story? Myron Ort On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Eric Theise wrote: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: How and why do stories like that get started anyway? That particular story got started because Jonas Mekas told it. It continues to be told because it's a good story, and it's lodged in the collective memory due to the problematic but always cited early literature on Warhol's filmmaking. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
The essay with the apocryphal story is in Notes After Reseeing the Films of Andy Warhol by Jonas Mekas. First published in Andy Warhol by John Coplans in 1970. Reprinted in Andy Warhol Film Factory by Michael O'Pray in 1989. ~ Greg ps: More later. : the warhol: Greg Pierce Assistant Curator of Film and Video 117 Sandusky Street Pittsburgh, PA 15212 T 412.237.8332 F 412.237.8340 E pier...@warhol.org W www.warhol.org W http://members.carnegiemuseums.org The Andy Warhol Museum One of the four Carnegie Museums of Pittsburgh : -Original Message- From: frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com [mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] On Behalf Of Adam Hyman Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 1:43 PM To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects Only you can answer that... On 2/13/12 10:35 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: In which of the many books scattered around my house did I surely encounter that story? Myron Ort On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Eric Theise wrote: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: How and why do stories like that get started anyway? That particular story got started because Jonas Mekas told it. It continues to be told because it's a good story, and it's lodged in the collective memory due to the problematic but always cited early literature on Warhol's filmmaking. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks The information contained in this message and/or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any system and destroy any copies. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
Delete in after is as you read. Thanks -Original Message- From: frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com [mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] On Behalf Of Pierce, Greg Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 2:05 PM To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects The essay with the apocryphal story is in Notes After Reseeing the Films of Andy Warhol by Jonas Mekas. First published in Andy Warhol by John Coplans in 1970. Reprinted in Andy Warhol Film Factory by Michael O'Pray in 1989. ~ Greg ps: More later. : the warhol: Greg Pierce Assistant Curator of Film and Video 117 Sandusky Street Pittsburgh, PA 15212 T 412.237.8332 F 412.237.8340 E pier...@warhol.org W www.warhol.org W http://members.carnegiemuseums.org The Andy Warhol Museum One of the four Carnegie Museums of Pittsburgh : -Original Message- From: frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com [mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] On Behalf Of Adam Hyman Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 1:43 PM To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects Only you can answer that... On 2/13/12 10:35 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: In which of the many books scattered around my house did I surely encounter that story? Myron Ort On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Eric Theise wrote: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: How and why do stories like that get started anyway? That particular story got started because Jonas Mekas told it. It continues to be told because it's a good story, and it's lodged in the collective memory due to the problematic but always cited early literature on Warhol's filmmaking. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks The information contained in this message and/or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any system and destroy any copies. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
Still not sure which book I saw the story, but I did find this, so the discrediting was in print: Pittsburg Post Gazette, Weekend Mag, Friday, February 6, 1998 Legend has it that Brakhage was watching Warhol’s “Sleep” (which consists of a sleeping person) and hated it. Someone in the room suggested that instead of watching it at 24 frames per second, he slow it down to 16 frames, which is the way it was intended to be seen. At the slower speed, Brakhage allegedly had a change of heart. Brakhage: It’s a great story, but it’s not true. “I never did like it, It’sinconceivable that I would sit all the way through ‘Sleep.’ I don’t know very many people who have, inclulding Warhol. “My interest in Warhol as a film-maker is that he turned the anthropological camera on his own world with honesty. I think ‘Chelsea Girls’ is wonderful. All of his greatness as a filmmaker is in that film.” On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:42 AM, Adam Hyman wrote: Only you can answer that... On 2/13/12 10:35 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: In which of the many books scattered around my house did I surely encounter that story? Myron Ort On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Eric Theise wrote: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Myron Ort z...@sonic.net wrote: How and why do stories like that get started anyway? That particular story got started because Jonas Mekas told it. It continues to be told because it's a good story, and it's lodged in the collective memory due to the problematic but always cited early literature on Warhol's filmmaking. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
Not impossible that there was an offhand, perhaps even sarcastically intended, remark that Mekas repeated or wrote down in his column and which Brakhage just forgot making. Print has an odd power to take slight anecdotes and give them a status beyond their initial intent. (My own remembering, which may be accurate or not, is that Brakhage said that he now saw the point of the film but still was largely unimpressed.) But of course the real issue is whether the shift in projection speed really does have the affect that the anecdote attributes to it. Neither the authority of SB's statement nor his disavowal has all that much relevance to that. Certainly there are instances where such shifts are transformative -- Ernie Gehr's step-printing of the source of Eureka --but it needs to be taken on a case by case basis. I've only seen excerpts of Sleep, so can't judge. j On 2/13/12 2:05 PM, Pierce, Greg wrote: The essay with the apocryphal story is in Notes After Reseeing the Films of Andy Warhol by Jonas Mekas. First published in Andy Warhol by John Coplans in 1970. Reprinted in Andy Warhol Film Factory by Michael O'Pray in 1989. ~ Greg ps: More later. : the warhol: Greg Pierce Assistant Curator of Film and Video 117 Sandusky Street Pittsburgh, PA 15212 T 412.237.8332 F 412.237.8340 E pier...@warhol.org W www.warhol.org W http://members.carnegiemuseums.org The Andy Warhol Museum One of the four Carnegie Museums of Pittsburgh : -Original Message- From: frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com [mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] On Behalf Of Adam Hyman Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 1:43 PM To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects Only you can answer that... On 2/13/12 10:35 AM, Myron Ortz...@sonic.net wrote: In which of the many books scattered around my house did I surely encounter that story? Myron Ort On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Eric Theise wrote: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Myron Ortz...@sonic.net wrote: How and why do stories like that get started anyway? That particular story got started because Jonas Mekas told it. It continues to be told because it's a good story, and it's lodged in the collective memory due to the problematic but always cited early literature on Warhol's filmmaking. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks The information contained in this message and/or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any system and destroy any copies. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects
Of course, Gehr's extension of A Trip Down Market Street into his EUREKA (by step-printing each frame in original eight times (I believe)) is separate from projection speed; Gehr's EUKEKA is properly run, for the record at 24fps. Notably, this sound/speed silent speed results in other effects than merely slowing down motion or extending time. For example, I can recall Hollis Frampton's ORDINARY MATTER projected at 16fps and noting a very strange clarity and stillness to each frame, which I recognized as possibly the result of a pixilated shooting technique slowed way down. Notably this is a sound film, with sound played double system (i.e. not on a mag track). Similarly, in a film like Ken Jacobs' TOM TOM...—created, it is worth noting by filming a film as it is projected (i.e. not optically or contact printed—am I wrong about this?) the pulsing projection (at 16fps, or 18 if you must) places the pulsing projection as a subject of the film. Another well-known proponent of silent speed is of course Nathaniel Dorsky, who shoots his own films at a variety of camera speeds but almost always dictates a projection speed of 18fps. Hearing him speak in the late '90s when presenting selections from Stan Brakhage's ARABIC NUMERAL series (which, until Dorsky convinced him otherwise were always screened at 24fps), Dorsky discussed how 18fps placed the films at the threshold of flicker and introduced intimation of instability into the visual experience. He has since said as much about his own decision to present his films at this speed. Note well that the perceptual/physiological experience of viewing a film projected in this manner is completely different from viewing a step-printed film projected at 24fps. Steve Polta --- On Mon, 2/13/12, John Matturri jmatt...@earthlink.net wrote: From: John Matturri jmatt...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Date: Monday, February 13, 2012, 11:24 AM Not impossible that there was an offhand, perhaps even sarcastically intended, remark that Mekas repeated or wrote down in his column and which Brakhage just forgot making. Print has an odd power to take slight anecdotes and give them a status beyond their initial intent. (My own remembering, which may be accurate or not, is that Brakhage said that he now saw the point of the film but still was largely unimpressed.) But of course the real issue is whether the shift in projection speed really does have the affect that the anecdote attributes to it. Neither the authority of SB's statement nor his disavowal has all that much relevance to that. Certainly there are instances where such shifts are transformative -- Ernie Gehr's step-printing of the source of Eureka --but it needs to be taken on a case by case basis. I've only seen excerpts of Sleep, so can't judge. j On 2/13/12 2:05 PM, Pierce, Greg wrote: The essay with the apocryphal story is in Notes After Reseeing the Films of Andy Warhol by Jonas Mekas. First published in Andy Warhol by John Coplans in 1970. Reprinted in Andy Warhol Film Factory by Michael O'Pray in 1989. ~ Greg ps: More later. : the warhol: Greg Pierce Assistant Curator of Film and Video 117 Sandusky Street Pittsburgh, PA 15212 T 412.237.8332 F 412.237.8340 E pier...@warhol.org W www.warhol.org W http://members.carnegiemuseums.org The Andy Warhol Museum One of the four Carnegie Museums of Pittsburgh : -Original Message- From: frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com [mailto:frameworks-boun...@jonasmekasfilms.com] On Behalf Of Adam Hyman Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 1:43 PM To: Experimental Film Discussion List Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Andy Warhol's SLEEP / Providence, RI / Feb 18 / Magic Lantern + RK Projects Only you can answer that... On 2/13/12 10:35 AM, Myron Ortz...@sonic.net wrote: In which of the many books scattered around my house did I surely encounter that story? Myron Ort On Feb 13, 2012, at 10:30 AM, Eric Theise wrote: On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Myron Ortz...@sonic.net wrote: How and why do stories like that get started anyway? That particular story got started because Jonas Mekas told it. It continues to be told because it's a good story, and it's lodged in the collective memory due to the problematic but always cited early literature on Warhol's filmmaking. ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks The information contained in this message and/or attachments is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain
[Frameworks] 50ft Lomo Tank
Does anyone have a 50ft Lomo Tank for sale with all its bits? Kev ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
[Frameworks] US civil rights related films?
Hey folks a friend of mine is looking for films about civil rights issues in the US - historical or contemporary (eg: the prison industrial system, the school to prison pipeline, the justice system, death row, police brutality c c) - for a series of screenings in New Orleans any ideas? cheers Moira www.moiratierney.net ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
[Frameworks] 100D problem / silicone?
any idea where to get pure silicone (as advised in one of the earlier posts)? cheers moira www.moiratierney.net www.soluscollective.org From: Kevin Timmins on-on...@hotmail.com To: FrameWorks frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2012 12:49 PM Subject: Re: [Frameworks] Canon 1014XL-S/ 814XL-S problems with 100D film stock This sounds ominous as I did indeed purchase the stock from Turkey in a large block to save money in the long run. I will test another cartridge and let you know how I get on. The seller on ebay is 'Super 8 dealer' based so I would steer clear of stock he might be selling for now. I will test another few cartridges in different cameras and see how I get on. Kevin From: kenpaulrosent...@hotmail.com To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:30:12 -0800 Subject: [Frameworks] Canon 1014XL-S/ 814XL-S problems with 100D film stock This issue first cropped up--for me--back in 2000 when I was teaching abroad in Singapore for a couple of years. I was purchasing large blocks of super 8 film from Europe--all stocks--and was receiving cartridges that had broken spindles, or would stop mid-filming wherein the camera would flash the internal 'exposed' signal. This was primarily happening with Kodachrome cartridges, years before the EK 100D was released. From around 2004 to 2009, my students and I shot dozens of EK 100D rolls for for hand processing tests/projects and I don't recall a single cartridge issue, though its certainly possible the quality control has plummeted. Anyway, when this issue occurred for me, I'd take note of how much footage I'd shot, then pop the cartridge out, re-insert and continue shooting. Most of the time that worked, but some times it did not. I strongly suggest giving Marvin a call at Photo Center in LA. He's the man when it comes to Super 8 camera issues and may suggest something apart from a cartridge specific issue. It's possible that finer cameras, such as the 814 and 1014XLS are more sensitive to cartridge irregularities. Ken www.crookedbeautythefilm.com (Academic) www.crookedbeauty.com (Public) www.kenpaulrosenthal.com ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] US civil rights related films?
*The Murder of Fred Hampton* (1971).. By Howard Alk and Mike Gray of The Film Group Inc. -- an often forgotten or unknown assassination of a 21-year old Human Rights leader orchestrated by J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI's Cointelpro program and the Chicago Police. Available on video at Facets. If you're looking for film prints, the Chicago Film Archives preserved the Film Group Inc's *Cicero March *(1968) a few years ago. A piece documenting Dr. King's unsuccessful peace March from Chicago's North Lawndale neighborhood (mostly black residents) into Cicero (nearly all Italian at the time). This piece is also on Facets' DVD release of *The Murder of Fred Hampton *(1971)... Warren On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:56 PM, ev petrol epetr...@yahoo.com wrote: Hey folks a friend of mine is looking for films about civil rights issues in the US - historical or contemporary (eg: the prison industrial system, the school to prison pipeline, the justice system, death row, police brutality c c) - for a series of screenings in New Orleans any ideas? cheers Moira www.moiratierney.net ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] US civil rights related films?
Lynne Sachs' Investigation of a Flame? --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Warren Cockerham warrencocker...@gmail.com wrote: From: Warren Cockerham warrencocker...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Frameworks] US civil rights related films? To: ev petrol epetr...@yahoo.com, Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 12:53 AM The Murder of Fred Hampton (1971).. By Howard Alk and Mike Gray of The Film Group Inc. -- an often forgotten or unknown assassination of a 21-year old Human Rights leader orchestrated by J. Edgar Hoover, the FBI's Cointelpro program and the Chicago Police. Available on video at Facets. If you're looking for film prints, the Chicago Film Archives preserved the Film Group Inc's Cicero March (1968) a few years ago. A piece documenting Dr. King's unsuccessful peace March from Chicago's North Lawndale neighborhood (mostly black residents) into Cicero (nearly all Italian at the time). This piece is also on Facets' DVD release of The Murder of Fred Hampton (1971)... Warren On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 at 8:56 PM, ev petrol epetr...@yahoo.com wrote: Hey folks a friend of mine is looking for films about civil rights issues in the US - historical or contemporary (eg: the prison industrial system, the school to prison pipeline, the justice system, death row, police brutality c c) - for a series of screenings in New Orleans any ideas? cheers Moira www.moiratierney.net ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks -Inline Attachment Follows- ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] US civil rights related films?
IN LOVING MEMORY by Robert Todd is a poetic and emotional film about death row inmates. You may also consider A PERFECT FILM by Ken Jacobs. -JH ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
[Frameworks] more on projector speeds
That graphic I was sending to Josh Guilford notes an interesting feature of the Pageant 250S, which relates to the whole discussion of how projection affects the 'look' of a film, not just the duration. Almost all projectors have a 3-blade shutter, so at 16fps they flicker 48 time-per-second, at 18 fps they flicker at 54 times-per-second, and at 24fps they flicker at 72 times-per-second. Now, I can definitely see 48 pulse projector flicker, and find it annoying (and I have trouble watching PAL TV, because I can see the 50Hz flicker and it bugs me). But those specs, 50Hz TV and 48 pulse film projection were set because MOST people supposedly cannot perceive flicker at those rates. I think it's safe to say, though, that 24fps/72 pulse flicker, and good old NTSC (59.97 field pulses/sec) look the same to pretty much everyone. Anyway, not ALL projectors have 3 blades. Telecine projectors have five-blade shutters, with narrow openings at that (too dim to use for public projection). And some projectors have 2-blade shutters. The 250S has a Kodak Super-40 shutter, which has spring-loaded movable blades. At the silent speed (18fps) the springs keep the blades in a three blade configuration, yielding 54 pulses per second. At 24fps though, the centrifugal force on the blades overcome the spring tension and the blades move into a two blade configuration, yielding 40 percent more screen illumination' and a 48 pulse flicker. However, depending on whether you change the speed before or after the projector is in forward motion, you can get the other shutter configuration with either sound or silent speed. That is, you can get 18fps in 2 blade mode (yielding 36 pulse flicker) or 24fps in 3 blade mode (yielding 72 pulse flicker). -- So if we really wanted to get anal retentive about how filmmakers intend their work to be shown, we'd have to know not just the frame rate, but the number of shutter blades. And the shutter-angle of however many opening there are... And, really, 2fps one way or the other is one of the smaller variables between different instances of projection. Are the projectors in a booth so their mechanical noise is muffled, or out in the open where the projector noise is audible? How big is the image on screen relative to the audience-screen distance. How bright is the image? What's the color temperature of the lamp? (warning: irony ahead) So if Warhol showed 'Sleep' with a 16mm projector running at 16fps, with a three 60-degree blade shutter, in an open room, 25 feet away from the screen, burning a 1000W incandescent lamp, through a 38mm f.1.8 lens, then that's the way to screen it, damnit. No messing with the flicker, no hiding the projector noise, no Xenon lamps that produce a cooler monochrome, or put out more light (unless you compensate the f-stop of lens to keep the lumens on screen constant, natch), no 25mm or 50mm lenses... Anything else is ILLEGITIMATE! Why, you might as well put Schwechater on a looper and run it in a museum gallery where people are walking in and out of the room all the time, and there's enough ambient light so they don't trip over each other, when we all know they should be in individual seats with side blinders locked in for the duration with one of those locking bars across their laps like a ride at Disney World! Show it RIGHT or don't show it at all! ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
Re: [Frameworks] more on projector speeds
Brilliant, especially the last bit, which raises the whole issue of whether it's appropriate to show older work on new equipment. There was a great show at the Hamburger Bahnhof in Berlin about four years ago called Beyond Cinema: The Art of Projection, in which all the work was shown on equipment that was current at the time, including, eg a Peter Campus projection that used an original 1960s or (70s ?) video projector. This has also be an issue recently in representing early British video work, ie whether to show it on period cathode ray tube domestic TV sets, as some of the work, such as David Hall's, implicitly requires or assumes, or to show it on a modern CRT or, much worse, a flat screen. Nicky Hamlyn. -Original Message- From: David Tetzlaff djte...@gmail.com To: Experimental Film Discussion List frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com Sent: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 5:49 Subject: [Frameworks] more on projector speeds That graphic I was sending to Josh Guilford notes an interesting feature of the Pageant 250S, which relates to the whole discussion of how projection affects the 'look' of a film, not just the duration. Almost all projectors have a 3-blade shutter, so at 16fps they flicker 48 time-per-second, at 18 fps they flicker at 54 times-per-second, and at 24fps they flicker at 72 times-per-second. Now, I can definitely see 48 pulse projector flicker, and find it annoying (and I have trouble watching PAL TV, because I can see the 50Hz flicker and it bugs me). But those specs, 50Hz TV and 48 pulse film projection were set because MOST people supposedly cannot perceive flicker at those rates. I think it's safe to say, though, that 24fps/72 pulse flicker, and good old NTSC (59.97 field pulses/sec) look the same to pretty much everyone. Anyway, not ALL projectors have 3 blades. Telecine projectors have five-blade shutters, with narrow openings at that (too dim to use for public projection). And some projectors have 2-blade shutters. The 250S has a Kodak Super-40 shutter, which has spring-loaded movable blades. At the silent speed (18fps) the springs keep the blades in a three blade configuration, yielding 54 pulses per second. At 24fps though, the centrifugal force on the blades overcome the spring tension and the blades move into a two blade configuration, yielding 40 percent more screen illumination' and a 48 pulse flicker. However, depending on whether you change the speed before or after the projector is in forward motion, you can get the other shutter configuration with either sound or silent speed. That is, you can get 18fps in 2 blade mode (yielding 36 pulse flicker) or 24fps in 3 blade mode (yielding 72 pulse flicker). -- So if we really wanted to get anal retentive about how filmmakers intend their work to be shown, we'd have to know not just the frame rate, but the number of shutter blades. And the shutter-angle of however many opening there are... And, really, 2fps one way or the other is one of the smaller variables between different instances of projection. Are the projectors in a booth so their mechanical noise is muffled, or out in the open where the projector noise is audible? How big is the image on screen relative to the audience-screen distance. How bright is the image? What's the color temperature of the lamp? (warning: irony ahead) So if Warhol showed 'Sleep' with a 16mm projector running at 16fps, with a three 60-degree blade shutter, in an open room, 25 feet away from the screen, burning a 1000W incandescent lamp, through a 38mm f.1.8 lens, then that's the way to screen it, damnit. No messing with the flicker, no hiding the projector noise, no Xenon lamps that produce a cooler monochrome, or put out more light (unless you compensate the f-stop of lens to keep the lumens on screen constant, natch), no 25mm or 50mm lenses... Anything else is ILLEGITIMATE! Why, you might as well put Schwechater on a looper and run it in a museum gallery where people are walking in and out of the room all the time, and there's enough ambient light so they don't trip over each other, when we all know they should be in individual seats with side blinders locked in for the duration with one of those locking bars across their laps like a ride at Disney World! Show it RIGHT or don't show it at all! ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks ___ FrameWorks mailing list FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
