Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Sean Weitzel]

The Chinese Technicolor Ib facility was razed many years ago.
On Dec 19, 2015 9:54 AM, "Robert Withers" <withe...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Dear Frameworkers,
> Thanks for all the interesting responses to this issue. There is such a
> wealth of knowledge here!
>
> Glad to know there are some digital restoration possibilities, though
> sounds like something that should be done sooner before further shifts
> happen. Aii, the tension between preserving the old and making the new.
>
> I wonder how Kodak color prints and negatives of today will behave? Were
> they improved after the 70's?
> Once converted into digital, we're into the ever-shifting technology
> stream that still seems to have no practical archival process that won't
> require constant updating.
>
> I think of the B/W paper prints in the Library of Congress that are still
> preserving films of the early 1900s. Illuminated manuscripts on vellum have
> held up pretty well for 600 years, if limited to beautiful blue, red, and
> gold. I wonder if the Technicolor process with three B/W separation
> negatives still exists in China, where Technicolor sold it?
>
> Or should we think of movies as an essentially ephemeral art, like dance,
> with a life span similar to our own?
>
> Cheers,
> Robert Withers
>
>
>
> WithersWorks.com
>
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2015, at 7:00 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote:
>
>
>
> *From: *cbifi...@gmail.com
> *Subject: **Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink*
> *Date: *December 18, 2015 2:17:53 PM EST
> *To: *Dominic Angerame <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>, Experimental
> Film Discussion List <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
>
>
> I did a pretty good job of colour correcting a red print by shooting it
> with a video camera set to auto colour balance. The shutter could be
> adjusted in 10ths to eliminate flicker.  It brought it right back to where
> it should be colour-wise and was just slightly more muted than the original
> likely was.
>
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
> *From: *Dominic Angerame
> *Sent: *Friday, December 18, 2015 10:23
> *To: *Experimental Film Discussion List
> *Reply To: *Experimental Film Discussion List
> *Subject: *Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink
>
> Alas all of this is true. A Canyon Cinema I found most of the color prints
> made in the 70's had turned red. This even happens when the film is never
> projected. When I worked at the Encyclopedia Britannica in the early 70's
> most of their prints had turned red. I am inspecting the 16mm film
> collection at the SF ARt Institute and am finding the same situation with
> some prints made during the 70's and some 1980 print.
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Jeff Kreines <j...@kinetta.com> wrote:
>
>> Eastmancolor was very bad in terms of magenta fading.
>>
>> I’ve seem excellent work scanning faded prints and restoring the color
>> (using lots of nodes in Resolve) and doing filmouts (16mm 5K, or 35mm) by
>> VFS, now merged with Colorlab.
>>
>> The trick is to have at least a tiny bit of the missing colors present in
>> the scan, to give the software something that it can work with.
>>
>> > On Dec 17, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > I don't remember whether it had to be slightly acid or slightly basic,
>> and
>> > it was _just_ a thing with the Agfa/Ansco chemistry which is very
>> different
>> > (and can be a lot more stable than) the modern Eastman chemistry.  I
>> think
>> > there is a discussion of it in Mees' book, though.
>> > --scott
>> > ___
>> > FrameWorks mailing list
>> > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
>> > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>>
>> Jeff Kreines
>> Kinetta
>> j...@kinetta.com
>> kinetta.com
>>
>>
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
>
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Robert Withers]

Dear Frameworkers,
Thanks for all the interesting responses to this issue. There is such a wealth 
of knowledge here!

Glad to know there are some digital restoration possibilities, though sounds 
like something that should be done sooner before further shifts happen. Aii, 
the tension between preserving the old and making the new. 

I wonder how Kodak color prints and negatives of today will behave? Were they 
improved after the 70's?
Once converted into digital, we're into the ever-shifting technology stream 
that still seems to have no practical archival process that won't require 
constant updating. 

I think of the B/W paper prints in the Library of Congress that are still 
preserving films of the early 1900s. Illuminated manuscripts on vellum have 
held up pretty well for 600 years, if limited to beautiful blue, red, and gold. 
I wonder if the Technicolor process with three B/W separation negatives still 
exists in China, where Technicolor sold it?

Or should we think of movies as an essentially ephemeral art, like dance, with 
a life span similar to our own?

Cheers,
Robert Withers



WithersWorks.com



On Dec 19, 2015, at 7:00 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote:

> 
> 
> From: cbifi...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink
> Date: December 18, 2015 2:17:53 PM EST
> To: Dominic Angerame <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>, Experimental Film 
> Discussion List <frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.com>
> 
> 
> I did a pretty good job of colour correcting a red print by shooting it with 
> a video camera set to auto colour balance. The shutter could be adjusted in 
> 10ths to eliminate flicker.  It brought it right back to where it should be 
> colour-wise and was just slightly more muted than the original likely was.  
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.
> From: Dominic Angerame
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:23
> To: Experimental Film Discussion List
> Reply To: Experimental Film Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink
> 
> Alas all of this is true. A Canyon Cinema I found most of the color prints 
> made in the 70's had turned red. This even happens when the film is never 
> projected. When I worked at the Encyclopedia Britannica in the early 70's 
> most of their prints had turned red. I am inspecting the 16mm film collection 
> at the SF ARt Institute and am finding the same situation with some prints 
> made during the 70's and some 1980 print.
> 
> 
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Jeff Kreines <j...@kinetta.com> wrote:
> Eastmancolor was very bad in terms of magenta fading.
> 
> I’ve seem excellent work scanning faded prints and restoring the color (using 
> lots of nodes in Resolve) and doing filmouts (16mm 5K, or 35mm) by VFS, now 
> merged with Colorlab.
> 
> The trick is to have at least a tiny bit of the missing colors present in the 
> scan, to give the software something that it can work with.
> 
> > On Dec 17, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> > I don't remember whether it had to be slightly acid or slightly basic, and
> > it was _just_ a thing with the Agfa/Ansco chemistry which is very different
> > (and can be a lot more stable than) the modern Eastman chemistry.  I think
> > there is a discussion of it in Mees' book, though.
> > --scott
> > ___
> > FrameWorks mailing list
> > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
> 
> Jeff Kreines
> Kinetta
> j...@kinetta.com
> kinetta.com
> 

___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[cbifilms]

  Recent Kodak stocks do hold up much better, as do technocolor prints‎. In the 70's, 80's and 90's, especially during the explosion of the cineplex, cheaper prints were made to only last for the 6-8 weeks of a run.  Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.From: Robert WithersSent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 13:54To: frameworks@jonasmekasfilms.comReply To: Experimental Film Discussion ListSubject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pinkDear Frameworkers,Thanks for all the interesting responses to this issue. There is such a wealth of knowledge here!Glad to know there are some digital restoration possibilities, though sounds like something that should be done sooner before further shifts happen. Aii, the tension between preserving the old and making the new. I wonder how Kodak color prints and negatives of today will behave? Were they improved after the 70's?Once converted into digital, we're into the ever-shifting technology stream that still seems to have no practical archival process that won't require constant updating. I think of the B/W paper prints in the Library of Congress that are still preserving films of the early 1900s. Illuminated manuscripts on vellum have held up pretty well for 600 years, if limited to beautiful blue, red, and gold. I wonder if the Technicolor process with three B/W separation negatives still exists in China, where Technicolor sold it?Or should we think of movies as an essentially ephemeral art, like dance, with a life span similar to our own?Cheers,Robert WithersWithersWorks.com



On Dec 19, 2015, at 7:00 AM, frameworks-requ...@jonasmekasfilms.com wrote:From: cbifi...@gmail.comSubject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pinkDate: December 18, 2015 2:17:53 PM ESTTo: Dominic Angerame , Experimental Film Discussion List I did a pretty good job of colour correcting a red print by shooting it with a video camera set to auto colour balance. The shutter could be adjusted in 10ths to eliminate flicker.  It brought it right back to where it should be colour-wise and was just slightly more muted than the original likely was.  Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.From: Dominic AngerameSent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:23To: Experimental Film Discussion ListReply To: Experimental Film Discussion ListSubject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pinkAlas all of this is true. A Canyon Cinema I found most of the color prints made in the 70's had turned red. This even happens when the film is never projected. When I worked at the Encyclopedia Britannica in the early 70's most of their prints had turned red. I am inspecting the 16mm film collection at the SF ARt Institute and am finding the same situation with some prints made during the 70's and some 1980 print.On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Jeff Kreines  wrote:Eastmancolor was very bad in terms of magenta fading.I’ve seem excellent work scanning faded prints and restoring the color (using lots of nodes in Resolve) and doing filmouts (16mm 5K, or 35mm) by VFS, now merged with Colorlab.The trick is to have at least a tiny bit of the missing colors present in the scan, to give the software something that it can work with.> On Dec 17, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Scott Dorsey  wrote:>> I don't remember whether it had to be slightly acid or slightly basic, and> it was _just_ a thing with the Agfa/Ansco chemistry which is very different> (and can be a lot more stable than) the modern Eastman chemistry.  I think> there is a discussion of it in Mees' book, though.> --scott> ___> FrameWorks mailing list> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworksJeff KreinesKinettaj...@kinetta.comkinetta.com
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Ed Inman]

Eastman LPP color prints from 1983 forward have generally held good color, though I've seen a few go to vinegar (which I suspect often has much to do with poor processing).The cyan or blues typically fade first in the older Eastman stocks and in many cases the yellow, magenta, and overall contrast will hold up for many years longer. But I've also seen SP prints fade mostly to brown and Fuji prints fade mostly to purple. At least one 16mm print I have has faded almost entirely to yellow and is almost invisible on the screen unless projected through a violet filter.Some more general information is here:http://www.paulivester.com/films/filmstock/guide.htmEd-Original Message-
From: Robert Withers 
I wonder how Kodak color prints and negatives of today will behave? Were they improved after the 70's?
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Dominic Angerame]

Alas all of this is true. A Canyon Cinema I found most of the color prints
made in the 70's had turned red. This even happens when the film is never
projected. When I worked at the Encyclopedia Britannica in the early 70's
most of their prints had turned red. I am inspecting the 16mm film
collection at the SF ARt Institute and am finding the same situation with
some prints made during the 70's and some 1980 print.


On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Jeff Kreines  wrote:

> Eastmancolor was very bad in terms of magenta fading.
>
> I’ve seem excellent work scanning faded prints and restoring the color
> (using lots of nodes in Resolve) and doing filmouts (16mm 5K, or 35mm) by
> VFS, now merged with Colorlab.
>
> The trick is to have at least a tiny bit of the missing colors present in
> the scan, to give the software something that it can work with.
>
> > On Dec 17, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Scott Dorsey  wrote:
> >
> > I don't remember whether it had to be slightly acid or slightly basic,
> and
> > it was _just_ a thing with the Agfa/Ansco chemistry which is very
> different
> > (and can be a lot more stable than) the modern Eastman chemistry.  I
> think
> > there is a discussion of it in Mees' book, though.
> > --scott
> > ___
> > FrameWorks mailing list
> > FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> > https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
> Jeff Kreines
> Kinetta
> j...@kinetta.com
> kinetta.com
>
>
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks
>
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[cbifilms]

  I did a pretty good job of colour correcting a red print by shooting it with a video camera set to auto white balance. The shutter could be adjusted in 10ths to eliminate flicker.  It brought it right back to where it should be colour-wise and was just slightly more muted than the original likely was.  Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.From: Dominic AngerameSent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:23To: Experimental Film Discussion ListReply To: Experimental Film Discussion ListSubject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pinkAlas all of this is true. A Canyon Cinema I found most of the color prints made in the 70's had turned red. This even happens when the film is never projected. When I worked at the Encyclopedia Britannica in the early 70's most of their prints had turned red. I am inspecting the 16mm film collection at the SF ARt Institute and am finding the same situation with some prints made during the 70's and some 1980 print.On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Jeff Kreines  wrote:Eastmancolor was very bad in terms of magenta fading.

I’ve seem excellent work scanning faded prints and restoring the color (using lots of nodes in Resolve) and doing filmouts (16mm 5K, or 35mm) by VFS, now merged with Colorlab.

The trick is to have at least a tiny bit of the missing colors present in the scan, to give the software something that it can work with.

> On Dec 17, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Scott Dorsey  wrote:
>
> I don't remember whether it had to be slightly acid or slightly basic, and
> it was _just_ a thing with the Agfa/Ansco chemistry which is very different
> (and can be a lot more stable than) the modern Eastman chemistry.  I think
> there is a discussion of it in Mees' book, though.
> --scott
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
j...@kinetta.com
kinetta.com


___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks


___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Zach Poff]

 

I've been pleasantly surprised by how much color I can restore from
magenta prints using careful RGB back-lighting and Adobe Premiere's
curves. There's an example here (scroll down a bit).
http://www.zachpoff.com/diy-resources/16mm-film-to-hd-transfer-system 

Not exactly pretty but it's a lot more watchable than the original. (In
this case the capture device is a mirrorless still camera, so I expect
that the increased resolution and color depth of a professional scan
would open up more possibilities.)  

-Zach ___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[cbifilms]

  I did a pretty good job of colour correcting a red print by shooting it with a video camera set to auto colour balance. The shutter could be adjusted in 10ths to eliminate flicker.  It brought it right back to where it should be colour-wise and was just slightly more muted than the original likely was.  Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Rogers network.From: Dominic AngerameSent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:23To: Experimental Film Discussion ListReply To: Experimental Film Discussion ListSubject: Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pinkAlas all of this is true. A Canyon Cinema I found most of the color prints made in the 70's had turned red. This even happens when the film is never projected. When I worked at the Encyclopedia Britannica in the early 70's most of their prints had turned red. I am inspecting the 16mm film collection at the SF ARt Institute and am finding the same situation with some prints made during the 70's and some 1980 print.On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 8:13 PM, Jeff Kreines  wrote:Eastmancolor was very bad in terms of magenta fading.

I’ve seem excellent work scanning faded prints and restoring the color (using lots of nodes in Resolve) and doing filmouts (16mm 5K, or 35mm) by VFS, now merged with Colorlab.

The trick is to have at least a tiny bit of the missing colors present in the scan, to give the software something that it can work with.

> On Dec 17, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Scott Dorsey  wrote:
>
> I don't remember whether it had to be slightly acid or slightly basic, and
> it was _just_ a thing with the Agfa/Ansco chemistry which is very different
> (and can be a lot more stable than) the modern Eastman chemistry.  I think
> there is a discussion of it in Mees' book, though.
> --scott
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
j...@kinetta.com
kinetta.com


___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks


___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

[Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Robert Withers]

Hello Frameworkers,
I have some 16mm color release prints from the 1970s that have turned 
pinkish/magenta. Need to check records to see if they're reversal or from 
negative. And to check reversal camera original and films from 80s/90s. This is 
a lot of material to go through.

Another filmmaker I know had this happen to color prints. Does anyone have 
experience with or info about this phenomenon?

Thanks,
Robert


WithersWorks.com



___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Pip Chodorov]

Yes, mostly print stocks from that period which were cheaply made turn pink.
Negatives also can turn pink and then prints made from them will look green.
The reason is that the blue dyes fade first.
If you need to recover the image, it is possible to scan the prints 
in 2K using an RGB scanner that flashes each frame three times using 
three colored lights, then augment the information from the blue 
layer digitally. Then you can shoot the corrected digital master back 
out to film.

-Pip Chodorov



At 22:00 -0500 17/12/15, Robert Withers wrote:

Hello Frameworkers,
I have some 16mm color release prints from the 1970s that have 
turned pinkish/magenta. Need to check records to see if they're 
reversal or from negative. And to check reversal camera original and 
films from 80s/90s. This is a lot of material to go through.

___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Scott Dorsey]

Yes.  There is a warning on the box when you buy the film about color dyes
changing in time and film not being warranted.

Eastman prints both from reversal and negative tend to go red.  LPP prints
tend to go red much more slowly than SP prints.  Fuji print stocks tend to
go blue and get smoky blacks instead of going red.

Agfa print stocks with Eastman chemistry go red, Agfa print stocks with 
ball and chain dye coupler chemistry are sometimes very stable and sometimes
lose all color completely, depending on the pH of the wash water at the lab.
Kodachrome prints are very very dark-stable but fade faster with light.

Color film is not considered acceptable for archival storage.
--scott
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Pip Chodorov]

Scott, thanks, that's interesting. Do you know what is the best pH 
for wash water?

Pip


At 22:17 -0500 17/12/15, Scott Dorsey wrote:


Agfa print stocks with Eastman chemistry go red, Agfa print stocks with
ball and chain dye coupler chemistry are sometimes very stable and sometimes
lose all color completely, depending on the pH of the wash water at the lab.

___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Scott Dorsey]

I don't remember whether it had to be slightly acid or slightly basic, and
it was _just_ a thing with the Agfa/Ansco chemistry which is very different
(and can be a lot more stable than) the modern Eastman chemistry.  I think
there is a discussion of it in Mees' book, though.
--scott
___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Re: [Frameworks] 16mm prints turned pink

[Jeff Kreines]

Eastmancolor was very bad in terms of magenta fading.

I’ve seem excellent work scanning faded prints and restoring the color (using 
lots of nodes in Resolve) and doing filmouts (16mm 5K, or 35mm) by VFS, now 
merged with Colorlab.

The trick is to have at least a tiny bit of the missing colors present in the 
scan, to give the software something that it can work with.

> On Dec 17, 2015, at 9:46 PM, Scott Dorsey  wrote:
> 
> I don't remember whether it had to be slightly acid or slightly basic, and
> it was _just_ a thing with the Agfa/Ansco chemistry which is very different
> (and can be a lot more stable than) the modern Eastman chemistry.  I think
> there is a discussion of it in Mees' book, though.
> --scott
> ___
> FrameWorks mailing list
> FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
> https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks

Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
j...@kinetta.com
kinetta.com


___
FrameWorks mailing list
FrameWorks@jonasmekasfilms.com
https://mailman-mail5.webfaction.com/listinfo/frameworks