Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Jan 12, 2008, at 9:29 PM, Daniel O'Connor wrote: On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, johan beisser wrote: Pitty the few I have seen are basically unmaintained :( (eg Papercut) Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper Not too difficult. Quite a few forums provide RSS feeds. That doesn't let you go both ways though, although just being able to browse forums in a usenet like way would be much nicer.. it's doable with a little bit of work. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, johan beisser wrote: > > Pitty the few I have seen are basically unmaintained :( > > (eg Papercut) > > > > Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper > > Not too difficult. Quite a few forums provide RSS feeds. That doesn't let you go both ways though, although just being able to browse forums in a usenet like way would be much nicer.. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Jan 12, 2008, at 4:37 PM, Daniel O'Connor wrote: A usenet<->forum bridge would be nice since news looks enough like email for oldies to use :) Pitty the few I have seen are basically unmaintained :( (eg Papercut) Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper Not too difficult. Quite a few forums provide RSS feeds. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Sun, 13 Jan 2008, Robert Watson wrote: > > Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's > > primarily an excuse and disparages the work done there. > > There's another element in play here -- FreeBSD.org is a mailing > list-centric community driven by people who are very much part of the > e-mail world. For many newer computer users, e-mail is the old > world, and the new world is instant messaging and web forums. Many > developers I've talked to feel quite uncomfortable with the medium of > web forums, and therefore don't tend to use them. If our newer user > communities are forming around web forums (i.e., for PC-BSD), then we > do need to find some way to bridge the gap. A usenet<->forum bridge would be nice since news looks enough like email for oldies to use :) Pitty the few I have seen are basically unmaintained :( (eg Papercut) Hmm I wonder how hard it would be to write a forum scraper -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 5596 B766 97C0 0E94 4347 295E E593 DC20 7B3F CE8C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: DTrace License Status
On Sun, Jan 13, 2008 at 05:15:08AM +0900, Harrison Grundy wrote: > Does anyone here know the latest on the DTrace license situation? The DTrace license hasn't changed and won't change. Please don't flog horse any more. It's dead. I am currently working on an implementation that works around the license issues by keeping all CDDL code in the DTrace kernel module set. This work is being funded by Cisco. I am very close to posting a set of patches for pre-commit review. -- John Birrell ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
DTrace License Status
Does anyone here know the latest on the DTrace license situation? ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). >>> Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; >> I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's >> the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at >> all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) > > BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from > the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed > communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and > over time they construct their own mythology of how that community > functions and acts. Since so many of us are subscribed to these mailing lists, I feel quite confident about saying that we are neither disconnected nor have created a mythology. If you mean by disconnected the people who appear once and ask something that can be answered by telling them to read a certain chapter in the handbook or one of the 120 HowTos we have written and collected (I have offered to the doc-mailing list to translate some to English, but that has been ignored), then in deed we are guilty - of keeping lots of newbies with trivial questions from these lists. > I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of > the project and its perception by a native-language user group, > culminating in one case in a face to face "crisis meeting" between > members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a > flame war over an "open letter" from that user group to the developers. > Interestingly, both cases involved German-language communities. The flame-war is occurring here. It didn't happen on our forums. The first people to reply to the "open letter" did so in a very constructive fashion. They anticipated that our letter was the result of months long discussion and only described problems of senior community members, who all are subscribed to FreeBSD mailing lists. I personally have been flamed on IRC and received hate-mail, because I openly opposed translating developer documentation to German, because I think that such a translation favors a community split. ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Robert Watson schrieb: I don't know if there are technical solutions to this problem, but if we want to "meet" many of these newer users of BSD, and hence build up the rapport needed to have a productive relationship, we're either going to have to lure them onto the mailing lists, find our way onto web forums, or find some other technical or social means of getting over that difference. There are several solutions for bridging mailing lists with a web interface/forum. Google groups is the most popular one, but there are also many other solutions, e.g. the Ruby folks use rforum to integrate several Ruby mailing lists with a forum like web interface. See http://www.ruby-forum.com/ for examples, rforum is available at http://rforum.andreas-s.net/ Jonathan Weiss -- Jonathan Weiss http://blog.innerewut.de ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008, Timo Schoeler wrote: (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD community, but that's a different story). Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an excuse and disparages the work done there. There's another element in play here -- FreeBSD.org is a mailing list-centric community driven by people who are very much part of the e-mail world. For many newer computer users, e-mail is the old world, and the new world is instant messaging and web forums. Many developers I've talked to feel quite uncomfortable with the medium of web forums, and therefore don't tend to use them. If our newer user communities are forming around web forums (i.e., for PC-BSD), then we do need to find some way to bridge the gap. I have to admit that I live very much in that e-mail world: I tried following the PC-BSD web forums for a bit, but the fact that the messages failed to appear neatly in threads in my mail reader meant it was awkward and inconvenient, and wasn't part of my regular workflow in which I intermittently poll my mail reader while getting other work done, referencing it on occasion with explicit searches, etc. I don't know if there are technical solutions to this problem, but if we want to "meet" many of these newer users of BSD, and hence build up the rapport needed to have a productive relationship, we're either going to have to lure them onto the mailing lists, find our way onto web forums, or find some other technical or social means of getting over that difference. Robert N M Watson Computer Laboratory University of Cambridge ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
On Sat, Jan 12, 2008 at 02:44:06PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Oliver Fromme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > > community, but that's a different story). > > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; > > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) > > BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from > the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed > communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and > over time they construct their own mythology of how that community > functions and acts. It is not only a native language forum it is a web based forum, which as such has a problem to attract persons which are deeper into the scene, since web based forums are not as simple to handle as tranditional mailing-lists without bringing anything on the pro side. I don't know if it is the largest German BSD community or not, but it is likely the German BSD community with the largest newcommer vs expirienced ratio. -- B.Walterhttp://www.bwct.de http://www.fizon.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Thus Dag-Erling Smørgrav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> spake on Sat, 12 Jan 2008 14:44:06 +0100: > Oliver Fromme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have > > several other patches that I maintain on my own for > > various reasons. For example I have a local patch set > > that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files > > much faster between slow machines over channels that don't > > need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. > > I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, > > because they would reject it. > > Correct. > > > I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, > > but I think it would be rejected too, reason: "please submit it > > upstream to the OpenSSH people". :-) > > Incorrect. I have done this myself in the past, and IIRC it's almost > trivial. I don't recall why I didn't commit it. > > > In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer > > of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring > > the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. > > Except he didn't really completely restructure it, he just broke it > in a different way than it was already broken. I was very > disappointed, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient seniority to > contradict him, nor sufficient experience to fix it properly. > > > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > > community, but that's a different story). > > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be > > > ignored; > > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) > > BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from > the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed > communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and > over time they construct their own mythology of how that community > functions and acts. Sorry, but (especially in this case) that is nonsense as it's primarily an excuse and disparages the work done there. > I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of > the project and its perception by a native-language user group, > culminating in one case in a face to face "crisis meeting" between > members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a > flame war over an "open letter" from that user group to the > developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language > communities. > > I also dimly recall a similar situation with the Japanese FreeBSD > community, which resulted in Warner learning Japanese in an effort to > bridge the divide. I was very amused when he started copying some of > the idiosyncracies of the Japanese community :) > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: FreeBSD's problems as seen by the BSDForen.de community
Oliver Fromme <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Certainly, but as I wrote, it's not a big deal. I have > several other patches that I maintain on my own for > various reasons. For example I have a local patch set > that enables "-c none" in ssh, so I can scp large files > much faster between slow machines over channels that don't > need encryption, and still be able to use ssh's features. > I don't even try to submit the patch to the OpenSSH people, > because they would reject it. Correct. > I considered submitting it as a local patch to the FreeBSD base, but I > think it would be rejected too, reason: "please submit it upstream to > the OpenSSH people". :-) Incorrect. I have done this myself in the past, and IIRC it's almost trivial. I don't recall why I didn't commit it. > In the particular case that I mentioned, the maintainer > of syscons was in the process of completely restructuring > the code anyway, so any other patches had to wait. Except he didn't really completely restructure it, he just broke it in a different way than it was already broken. I was very disappointed, but I didn't feel that I had sufficient seniority to contradict him, nor sufficient experience to fix it properly. > > > (I don't even think bsdforen.de is the largest German BSD > > > community, but that's a different story). > > Even in case it's the second biggest forum, it shouldn't be ignored; > I agree completely, it shouldn't be ignored. (Whether it's > the first, second or third biggest forum doesn't matter at > all; it can't be easily measured anyway.) BSDForen.de is a native-language forum, and I suspect it suffers from the same problems as other native-language fora: they become closed communities with little or no contact with the parent community, and over time they construct their own mythology of how that community functions and acts. I have seen this before - a complete disconnect between the reality of the project and its perception by a native-language user group, culminating in one case in a face to face "crisis meeting" between members of that community and FreeBSD developers, and in another in a flame war over an "open letter" from that user group to the developers. Interestingly, both cases involved German-language communities. I also dimly recall a similar situation with the Japanese FreeBSD community, which resulted in Warner learning Japanese in an effort to bridge the divide. I was very amused when he started copying some of the idiosyncracies of the Japanese community :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-chat@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-chat To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
