panic in g_vfs_strategy()

2016-06-21 Thread Steve Kargl
After a forced umount of a msdos filesystem, I received
a panic.  I have the kernel and vmcore.  The first hundred
or so lines of core.txt.4 follow my .sig.

-- 
Steve


troutmask.apl.washington.edu dumped core - see /var/crash/vmcore.4

Tue Jun 21 14:32:29 PDT 2016

FreeBSD troutmask.apl.washington.edu 11.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 11.0-CURRENT #0 
r299122: Thu May  5 10:03:31 PDT 2016 
ka...@troutmask.apl.washington.edu:/data/obj/usr/src/sys/SPEW  amd64

panic: general protection fault

Unread portion of the kernel message buffer:
Device da1s1 went missing before all of the data could be written to it; expect 
data loss.

Fatal trap 9: general protection fault while in kernel mode
cpuid = 0; apic id = 10
instruction pointer = 0x20:0x8050c4a1
stack pointer   = 0x28:0xfe0239276fc0
frame pointer   = 0x28:0xfe0239277000
code segment= base 0x0, limit 0xf, type 0x1b
= DPL 0, pres 1, long 1, def32 0, gran 1
processor eflags= interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
current process = 30604 (sendmail)
trap number = 9
panic: general protection fault
cpuid = 0
KDB: stack backtrace:
db_trace_self_wrapper() at db_trace_self_wrapper+0x2b/frame 0xfe0239276c60
vpanic() at vpanic+0x182/frame 0xfe0239276ce0
panic() at panic+0x43/frame 0xfe0239276d40
trap_fatal() at trap_fatal+0x351/frame 0xfe0239276da0
trap() at trap+0x6d1/frame 0xfe0239276f00
calltrap() at calltrap+0x8/frame 0xfe0239276f00
--- trap 0x9, rip = 0x8050c4a1, rsp = 0xfe0239276fd0, rbp = 
0xfe0239277000 ---
g_vfs_strategy() at g_vfs_strategy+0x31/frame 0xfe0239277000
bufwrite() at bufwrite+0x1da/frame 0xfe0239277040
vop_stdfsync() at vop_stdfsync+0x220/frame 0xfe02392770b0
devfs_fsync() at devfs_fsync+0x67/frame 0xfe02392770e0
VOP_FSYNC_APV() at VOP_FSYNC_APV+0x80/frame 0xfe0239277110
bufsync() at bufsync+0x35/frame 0xfe0239277140
bufobj_invalbuf() at bufobj_invalbuf+0x126/frame 0xfe02392771b0
vgonel() at vgonel+0x17e/frame 0xfe0239277220
vgone() at vgone+0x4c/frame 0xfe0239277250
devfs_delete() at devfs_delete+0x1f3/frame 0xfe02392772c0
devfs_populate_loop() at devfs_populate_loop+0x20f/frame 0xfe0239277320
devfs_populate() at devfs_populate+0x2a/frame 0xfe0239277340
devfs_populate_vp() at devfs_populate_vp+0x9b/frame 0xfe0239277390
devfs_lookup() at devfs_lookup+0x2c/frame 0xfe02392774a0
VOP_LOOKUP_APV() at VOP_LOOKUP_APV+0x7a/frame 0xfe02392774d0
lookup() at lookup+0x561/frame 0xfe0239277560
namei() at namei+0x3ef/frame 0xfe0239277620
vn_open_cred() at vn_open_cred+0x26c/frame 0xfe0239277790
kern_openat() at kern_openat+0x220/frame 0xfe0239277910
amd64_syscall() at amd64_syscall+0x33f/frame 0xfe0239277a30
Xfast_syscall() at Xfast_syscall+0xfb/frame 0xfe0239277a30
--- syscall (499, FreeBSD ELF64, sys_openat), rip = 0x2015336da, rsp = 
0x7fffb328, rbp = 0x7fffb410 ---
Uptime: 7d21h3m52s
Dumping 1033 out of 8143 MB:..2%..11%..21%..31%..41%..52%..61%..72%..81%..92%

#0  doadump (textdump=1) at pcpu.h:221
221 pcpu.h: No such file or directory.
in pcpu.h
(kgdb) #0  doadump (textdump=1) at pcpu.h:221
#1  0x8057e7f2 in kern_reboot (howto=260)
at /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:366
#2  0x8057ec6b in vpanic (fmt=, 
ap=) at /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:759
#3  0x8057eaa3 in panic (fmt=0x0)
at /usr/src/sys/kern/kern_shutdown.c:690
#4  0x807e5ab1 in trap_fatal (frame=0xfe0239276f10, eva=0)
at /usr/src/sys/amd64/amd64/trap.c:841
#5  0x807e5741 in trap (frame=0xfe0239276f10)
at /usr/src/sys/amd64/amd64/trap.c:203
#6  0x807cc133 in calltrap ()
at /usr/src/sys/amd64/amd64/exception.S:236
#7  0x8050c4a1 in g_vfs_strategy (bo=0xf801303510d0, 
bp=0xfe01f05637c0) at atomic.h:184
#8  0x8060d41a in bufwrite (bp=0xfe01f05637c0) at buf.h:405
#9  0x8061a750 in vop_stdfsync (ap=0xfe0239277120)
at /usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_default.c:695
#10 0x8047d637 in devfs_fsync (ap=0xfe0239277120)
at /usr/src/sys/fs/devfs/devfs_vnops.c:694
#11 0x8084d920 in VOP_FSYNC_APV (vop=, 
a=) at vnode_if.c:1331
#12 0x8060d535 in bufsync (bo=, 
waitfor=) at vnode_if.h:549
#13 0x80627686 in bufobj_invalbuf (bo=, 
flags=, slpflag=, 
slptimeo=) at /usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:1539
#14 0x8062a20e in vgonel (vp=)
at /usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:1617
#15 0x8062a6bc in vgone (vp=0xf80130351000)
at /usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:3079
#16 0x80477e33 in devfs_delete (dm=0xf800088d6080, 
de=0xf8022d551500, flags=0) at /usr/src/sys/fs/devfs/devfs_devs.c:397
#17 0x804782df in devfs_populate_loop (dm=, 
cleanup=) at /usr/src/sys/fs/devfs/devfs_devs.c:535
#18 0x804780ba in devfs_populate (dm=)
at /usr/src/sys/fs/devfs/devfs_devs.c:662
#

Re: console in 11.0-ALPHA4

2016-06-21 Thread Maxim Sobolev
Ed,

For once, we have pretty good VGL support in the libSDL, at least version
1.x has been tested and seems to be building/working fine with
sc(4)+vesa(4) on supported hardware/VMs.

http://libsdl.org/download-1.2.php

So pretty much any application built against SDL 1.2 library should work.
Unless it uses some specific X11 stuff directly that is.

For what it's worth, I also have direct vgl support in my pet project here:
https://github.com/sobomax/digger )

-Max

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:29 AM, Ed Maste  wrote:

> On the topic of vgl(3) specifically, in October 2014 I wrote on this list:
>
> > vgl(3) is a graphics library for syscons(4) that provides some basic
> > graphics operations (e.g. some mode setting, bitmaps, boxes,
> > ellipses). Right now it does not support the newer vt(4) console.
> >
> > In order to help determine the priority of a porting effort to add
> > vt(4) support I'd like to better understand where vgl is being used
> > now. I'd be interested in hearing about both open source software
> > using vgl as well as proprietary or internal applications. So if
> > you're using vgl I'd appreciate a follow up (in private is fine) with
> > a brief description of your use case.
>
> That received exactly one private reply, where it was pointed out that
> dosbox is an example consumer. Nobody replied to say they actually use
> vgl(3).
>
> I will post a followup to -stable to ask the same question, but
> please, let me know if you use vgl(3) in open source or proprietary
> software.
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>


-- 
Maksym Sobolyev
Sippy Software, Inc.
Internet Telephony (VoIP) Experts
Tel (Canada): +1-778-783-0474
Tel (Toll-Free): +1-855-747-7779
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Re: (beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Ian Lepore
On Tue, 2016-06-21 at 15:30 -0700, Mark Millard wrote:
> Ian Lepore ian at freebsd.org  wrote on Tue Jun 21 17:55:28 UTC 2016
> :
> 
> > On Tue, 2016-06-21 at 08:11 -0300, Otacílio wrote:
> > > Em 21/06/2016 07:33, Keith White escreveu:
> > > > In an earlier message Ian said that he thought he knew what the
> > > > problem was... 
> > > 
> > > Here the problem occurs  when using wifi. I do not have tested
> > > wired 
> > > because I don't have a cable here.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > []'s
> > > 
> > > -Otacilio
> > 
> > The wifi alignment fault should be fixed as of r302064.  Sorry it
> > took
> > so long.
> > 
> > -- Ian
> > 
> 
> FYI: I've not had any -r301975 problems with WiFi on my rpi2.
> 
> But I cross build for TARGET_ARCH=armv6 with:
> 
> > XCFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
> > XCXXFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
> 
> (And similarly for self-hosted.) It may be that the -march and/or 
> -mcpu matter to the code generation and explain my lack of problems.
> 
> The builds also have INVARIANTS and WITNESS off.
> 
> ===
> Mark Millard
> markmi at dsl-only.net

INVARIANTS being on was one of the things required to trigger the
alignment fault.

-- Ian

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Re: (beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Keith White

On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Ian Lepore wrote:


On Tue, 2016-06-21 at 08:11 -0300, Otacílio wrote:

Em 21/06/2016 07:33, Keith White escreveu:

In an earlier message Ian said that he thought he knew what the
problem was...


Here the problem occurs  when using wifi. I do not have tested wired
because I don't have a cable here.


[]'s

-Otacilio


The wifi alignment fault should be fixed as of r302064.  Sorry it took
so long.

-- Ian


Many thanks Ian!  Yes, this has fixed the problem.  No more panics
on ssh to rpi-b.

...keith
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(beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Mark Millard
Ian Lepore ian at freebsd.org  wrote on Tue Jun 21 17:55:28 UTC 2016 :

> On Tue, 2016-06-21 at 08:11 -0300, Otacílio wrote:
> > Em 21/06/2016 07:33, Keith White escreveu:
> > > In an earlier message Ian said that he thought he knew what the
> > > problem was... 
> > 
> > Here the problem occurs  when using wifi. I do not have tested wired 
> > because I don't have a cable here.
> > 
> > 
> > []'s
> > 
> > -Otacilio
> 
> The wifi alignment fault should be fixed as of r302064.  Sorry it took
> so long.
> 
> -- Ian
> 

FYI: I've not had any -r301975 problems with WiFi on my rpi2.

But I cross build for TARGET_ARCH=armv6 with:

> XCFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
> XCXXFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7

(And similarly for self-hosted.) It may be that the -march and/or -mcpu matter 
to the code generation and explain my lack of problems.

The builds also have INVARIANTS and WITNESS off.

===
Mark Millard
markmi at dsl-only.net

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RE: WITH_SYSTEM_COMPILER default on

2016-06-21 Thread Mark Millard
Bryan Drewery bdrewery at FreeBSD.org wrote on Tue Jun 21 19:03:46 UTC 2016 :

> This feature is where the bootstrap compiler in buildworld is not built
> if the one in /usr/bin/cc matches what would be built.  It is very
> conservative and requires a complete match of major/minor version and
> the compiler revision (__FreeBSD_cc_version).
> 
> The only complaint so far about this feature was that when we bumped the
> compiler revision, too much of clang would rebuild.  That was addressed
> in r301277.
> 
> I would like to enable this feature by default in head for 11.0.
> 
> Unless there are any objections I will do so in a few days.
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> Bryan Drewery

I've only been using WITH_SYSTEM_COMPILER= for system-clang based builds with 
the host matching TARGET_ARCH ("self hosted").

For xtoolchain use (self-hosted or not) I've been using in my src.conf files 
for such contexts: 

WITHOUT_CROSS_COMPILER=
WITHOUT_SYSTEM_COMPILER=
WITHOUT_BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP=
WITHOUT_CLANG_BOOTSTRAP=

For cross builds (all being amd64 -> something else, such as armv6, powerpc64, 
or powerpc) based on using some build of the system clang 3.8.0 I've been using:

WITH_CROSS_COMPILER=
WITHOUT_SYSTEM_COMPILER=
WITH_BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP=
WITH_CLANG_BOOTSTRAP=

As I understand the history the paths for finding tools, headers, etc. built 
into the clang cross compiler were not necessarily the same as for the live the 
system compiler that has paths appropriate specifically to self-hosting. This 
helped avoid getting the wrong versions of files involved.

This was true despite the normal clang code generation being able to target 
other architectures.

As for self-hosted system-clang based builds I've been using:

#WITH_CROSS_COMPILER=
WITH_SYSTEM_COMPILER=
WITH_BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP=
#WITH_CLANG_BOOTSTRAP=

(So in this case I've left some things implicit in operation.)

As stands I'll not notice the SYSTEM_COMPILER default's consequences because 
I'm always explicit about WITH vs. WITHOUT for SYSTM_COMPILER. If you want some 
sort of experiment(s), let me know.

But I only currently have an amd64 context and a rpi2 armv6 context. The 
dual-proessor, each dual-core powerpc64 was much faster at self-hosted 
xtoolchain builds compared to any self-hosted rpi2 build but I do not have 
access to the powerpc family for now. Self-hosted amd64 xtoolchain builds do 
not work yet for normal settings: duplicate declarations tend to stop the 
builds if one leaves on the warnings-as-errors status for buildkernel. (At 
least last that I tried such.)

===
Mark Millard
markmi at dsl-only.net

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Re: libpam.so lost in update to 11.0-ALPHA3

2016-06-21 Thread Bryan Drewery
On 6/16/16 3:35 PM, Bryan Drewery wrote:
> On 6/16/16 11:39 AM, Florian Ermisch wrote:
>>
>>
>> Am 14. Juni 2016 13:36:32 MESZ, schrieb Ben Woods :
>>> On Tuesday, 14 June 2016, Pavel Timofeev  wrote:
>>>

 14 июня 2016 г. 10:37 пользователь "Ben Woods" >>> > написал:
>
> On 14 June 2016 at 09:11, René Ladan >>> > wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I updated my pkgbase installation (11.0-amd64 from a few weeks
>>> ago) to
>> 11.0-ALPHA3. Building and installing went fine but it turns out
>>> that
>> libpam.so* is lost in the update (both the symlink and the
>>> actual so,
>> currently so.6) :
>>
>> # pkg upgrade
>> # pkg autoremove
>><>> one
>> version lower)
>>   << yes, I forgot to run mergemaster>>
>> # reboot
>>   <>> still fine)
>>
>> Is this a known bug?
>>
>> Regards,
>> René
>>
>
> Michael Lucas mentioned on twitter a few days ago that pam was
>>> broken
> recently in FreeBSD current.
>
> Michael: was this a problem with libpam.so going missing? Were you
>>> using
> pkgbase, or is this an issue with the normal build/install system
>>> also?
>
> Regards,
> Ben
>
> --

 Hi!
 I have the same problem with normal build/install system.

>>>
>>> Ok, thanks for the feedback.
>>>
>>> Bringing in the FreeBSD-current@ mailing list as it is not a problem
>>> with
>>> PkgBase, but with 11-current.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Ben
>>>
>> On my laptop running a few weeks old CURRENT sudo
>> just broke after a `pkg upgrade`. The missing lib it's 
>> complaining about is libpam.so.6 but when built from
>> ports it's linked against libpam.so.5.
>>
> 
> 
> Packages built after base r301892 will be fixed.
> 
> 

Actually the case of libpam.so.6 needed by sudo and your system has
libpam.so.5 is just part of running head and using head packages.  The
head packages are built every 2 days from the latest head at that time.
So packages were built using the bumped libpam.so.6 but your system
didn't yet have that so sudo failed to work.  The only good way to fix
this is to not be splitting our dependencies up so that some are not in
the package set.  Meaning, not having base libraries and moving
everything into the same ports/pkg system.  Which by the way is *not*
what pkgbase does in its current form since we're using 2 repositories
that have different dependencies between them.  We would need a single
repository, or not be removing old versions from both and pkg supporting
multiple versions from remotes.  I don't see the first happening due to
secteam/re needs of controlling the base system builds, and I don't see
the latter happening soon.

The __FreeBSD_version bump in r301892 only fixed the sudo package still
wanting libpam.so.5 rather than the bumped libpam.so.6.

Packages on head have several issues.  Technically after upgrading your
world/kernel the only safe thing to do with packages is to reinstall all
of them to ensure they are all ABI-compatible with pkg upgrade -f.  Even
then because of the 2 day delay there is risk of not having it all be
compatible.  Pkg could use more logic to handle all of this better,
perhaps by comparing __FreeBSD_version numbers of local and remote and
not upgrading past it.  I don't know.

-- 
Regards,
Bryan Drewery
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Heads Up: struct disk KBI change

2016-06-21 Thread Kenneth D. Merry

This will break binary compatibility for loadable modules that depend on
struct disk.  DISK_VERSION has been bumped, and I bumped __FreeBSD_version
in a subsequent change.

So, if you have module that uses struct disk, you'll need to recompile
against the latest version of head.

Ken

- Forwarded message from "Kenneth D. Merry"  -

Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 20:18:19 + (UTC)
From: "Kenneth D. Merry" 
To: src-committ...@freebsd.org, svn-src-...@freebsd.org,
svn-src-h...@freebsd.org
Subject: svn commit: r302069 - head/sys/geom

Author: ken
Date: Tue Jun 21 20:18:19 2016
New Revision: 302069
URL: https://svnweb.freebsd.org/changeset/base/302069

Log:
  Fix a bug that caused da(4) instances to hang around after the underlying
  device is gone.
  
  The problem was that when disk_gone() is called, if the GEOM disk
  creation process has not yet happened, the withering process
  couldn't start.
  
  We didn't record any state in the GEOM disk code, and so the d_gone()
  callback to the da(4) driver never happened.
  
  The solution is to track the state of the creation process, and
  initiate the withering process from g_disk_create() if the disk is
  being created.
  
  This change does add fields to struct disk, and so I have bumped
  DISK_VERSION.
  
  geom_disk.c:  Track where we are in the disk creation process,
and check to see whether our underlying disk has
gone away or not.
  
In disk_gone(), set a new d_goneflag variable that
g_disk_create() can check to see if it needs to
clean up the disk instance.
  
  geom_disk.h:Add a mutex to struct disk (for internal use) disk
init level, and a gone flag.
  
Bump DISK_VERSION because the size of struct disk has
changed and fields have been added at the beginning.
  
  Sponsored by: Spectra Logic
  Approved by:  re (marius)

Modified:
  head/sys/geom/geom_disk.c
  head/sys/geom/geom_disk.h

- End forwarded message -

-- 
Kenneth Merry
k...@freebsd.org
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ALPHA4-amd64-r301975 UFS crashes on VMware Wks

2016-06-21 Thread Merljin
Hello community,
( sorry for my bad english lang skills )
I would like to report problem with
FreeBSD-11.0-ALPHA4-amd64-20160617-r301975.

After clean install, while trying to install any binary packages with pkg
(ex: pkg install xorg )
Kernel crashes happen usually during any disk intensive operation.

( pkg upgrade wanted to upgrade two packages - get text and python27 )
Crash occured immediatelly after confirming pkg to continue ( y/N )

Jun 21 18:53:58 Auriga pkg: gettext-runtime upgraded: 0.19.7 -> 0.19.8.1
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: lock order reversal:
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: 1st 0xf80033631068 ufs (ufs) @
/usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:2498
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: 2nd 0xfe00f625e170 bufwait (bufwait) @
/usr/src/sys/ufs/ffs/ffs_vnops.c:263
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: 3rd 0xf80033499068 ufs (ufs) @
/usr/src/sys/kern/vfs_subr.c:2498
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: stack backtrace:
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #0 0x80aa7320 at
witness_debugger+0x70
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #1 0x80aa7214 at
witness_checkorder+0xe54
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #2 0x80a206d2 at __lockmgr_args+0x4c2
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #3 0x80d09426 at ffs_lock+0xa6
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #4 0x81014f2a at VOP_LOCK1_APV+0xea
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #5 0x80b17b8a at _vn_lock+0x9a
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #6 0x80b07fb3 at vget+0x63
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #7 0x80afa84c at vfs_hash_get+0xcc
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #8 0x80d05130 at ffs_vgetf+0x40
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #9 0x80cfca21 at
softdep_sync_buf+0xb51
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #10 0x80d0a016 at ffs_syncvnode+0x256
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #11 0x80ce0d83 at ffs_truncate+0x8d3
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #12 0x80d11741 at ufs_direnter+0x681
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #13 0x80d1aa59 at ufs_makeinode+0x5e9
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #14 0x80d165e3 at ufs_create+0x33
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #15 0x8101281b at VOP_CREATE_APV+0xdb
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #16 0x80b173d8 at vn_open_cred+0x2f8
Jun 21 18:53:59 Auriga kernel: #17 0x80b1075c at kern_openat+0x25c
Jun 21 18:54:01 Auriga pkg: python27 upgraded: 2.7.11_2 -> 2.7.11_3


After executing "pkg install xorg" - three crashes happened during
installation.

Running on VMware 12 Workstation. FreeBSD 10.3 RELEASE, Debian Linux,
Windows running there without any problems.

Is possible that filesystem is damaged/inconsistent after these crashes ?
data lost etc ?

Karel
( FBSD newbie )
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Re: PostgreSQL performance on FreeBSD

2016-06-21 Thread Maxim Sobolev
Thanks, Konstantin for the great work, we are definitely looking forward to
get all those improvements to be part of the default FreeBSD kernel/port.
Would be nice if you can post an update some day later as to what's
integrated and what's not.

Just in case, I've opened #14206 with PG to switch us to using POSIX
semaphores by default. Apart from the mentioned performance benefits, SYSV
semaphores are PITA to deal with as they come in very limited quantities by
default. Also they might stay around if PG dies/gets nuked and prevent it
from starting again due to overflow. We've got some quite ugly code to
clean up those using ipcrm(1) in our build scripts to deal with just that.
I am happy that code could be retired now.

-Maxim

On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 11:53 AM, John Baldwin  wrote:

> On Friday, June 03, 2016 11:29:03 AM Adrian Chadd wrote:
> > On 3 June 2016 at 11:27, Adrian Chadd  wrote:
> >
> > > That and the other NUMA stuff is something to address in -12.
> >
> > And, I completely welcome continued development in NUMA scaling in
> > combination with discussion. The iterator changes I committed are a
> > more generic version of a patch people were applying on top of -10 and
> > -head for at least what, three years now? Maybe more if -9 also just
> > did round-robin and not first-touch?
>
> 8 and 9 did first-touch.  Only 10 did round-robin.
>
> --
> John Baldwin
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Re: console in 11.0-ALPHA4

2016-06-21 Thread Maxim Sobolev
P.S. On more of IMHO side, I think having simple built in console graphics
library is quite important in order for kids to actually explore FreeBSD
early. I remember learning my first computer in elementary, with only few
KB of RAM it had BASIC interpreter built in and could already do basic
graphics primitives with just few lines of code. And that's what we had
explored quite early in the learning process. Computers we are running on
today are literally million times more powerful that that, both hardware
and software-wise, still you should not need to install whole X11
monstrosity to write graphics version of "hello world".

In any case if somebody is to add vt(4) support into libvgl, I could
probably help with testing that as well as possibly porting it to SDL 2.0.
My reduction of interest to maintaining that support has been generally
caused by the vesa going out of scope gradually, but with vt it might
actually revive it by opening it up for getting it running on most today's
x86 hardware and smaller arm systems as well.

-Max

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Maxim Sobolev 
wrote:

> Ed,
>
> For once, we have pretty good VGL support in the libSDL, at least version
> 1.x has been tested and seems to be building/working fine with
> sc(4)+vesa(4) on supported hardware/VMs.
>
> http://libsdl.org/download-1.2.php
>
> So pretty much any application built against SDL 1.2 library should work.
> Unless it uses some specific X11 stuff directly that is.
>
> For what it's worth, I also have direct vgl support in my pet project
> here: https://github.com/sobomax/digger )
>
> -Max
>
> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 6:29 AM, Ed Maste  wrote:
>
>> On the topic of vgl(3) specifically, in October 2014 I wrote on this list:
>>
>> > vgl(3) is a graphics library for syscons(4) that provides some basic
>> > graphics operations (e.g. some mode setting, bitmaps, boxes,
>> > ellipses). Right now it does not support the newer vt(4) console.
>> >
>> > In order to help determine the priority of a porting effort to add
>> > vt(4) support I'd like to better understand where vgl is being used
>> > now. I'd be interested in hearing about both open source software
>> > using vgl as well as proprietary or internal applications. So if
>> > you're using vgl I'd appreciate a follow up (in private is fine) with
>> > a brief description of your use case.
>>
>> That received exactly one private reply, where it was pointed out that
>> dosbox is an example consumer. Nobody replied to say they actually use
>> vgl(3).
>>
>> I will post a followup to -stable to ask the same question, but
>> please, let me know if you use vgl(3) in open source or proprietary
>> software.
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WITH_SYSTEM_COMPILER default on

2016-06-21 Thread Bryan Drewery
This feature is where the bootstrap compiler in buildworld is not built
if the one in /usr/bin/cc matches what would be built.  It is very
conservative and requires a complete match of major/minor version and
the compiler revision (__FreeBSD_cc_version).

The only complaint so far about this feature was that when we bumped the
compiler revision, too much of clang would rebuild.  That was addressed
in r301277.

I would like to enable this feature by default in head for 11.0.

Unless there are any objections I will do so in a few days.

-- 
Regards,
Bryan Drewery



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Re: (beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Ian Lepore
On Tue, 2016-06-21 at 08:11 -0300, Otacílio wrote:
> Em 21/06/2016 07:33, Keith White escreveu:
> > In an earlier message Ian said that he thought he knew what the
> > problem was... 
> 
> Here the problem occurs  when using wifi. I do not have tested wired 
> because I don't have a cable here.
> 
> 
> []'s
> 
> -Otacilio

The wifi alignment fault should be fixed as of r302064.  Sorry it took
so long.

-- Ian

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Re: BBB (cpsw(4)) seems to be broken in the latest 11-current

2016-06-21 Thread Paul Mather
On Jun 20, 2016, at 6:33 PM, Keith White  wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Jun 2016, Luiz Otavio O Souza wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, Jun 19, 2016 at 1:11 AM, Maxim Sobolev wrote:
>>> Jim, some update from here. Running r283287 of the driver, I still see the
>>> same "watchdog timeout" messages, but they do not lead to the interface
>>> lockout. The traffic resumes momentarily. Which is probably why I never paid
>>> much attention to those warnings before. Therefore, I suspect that the new
>>> MAC code does not deal with watchdog-triggered interface reset as good as
>>> the old code. Does it give you any ideas about what could be wrong there by
>>> any chance?
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Maxim,
>> 
>> My recent changes contributed somehow to expose the bug more frequently.
>> 
>> There was a condition in tx packet reclamation where we aren't
>> restarting the tx queue in one of the possible stall conditions.
>> 
>> Please try the attached patch and let me know if it works for you.
>> 
>> Luiz
> 
> Your patch fixes the problem for me.  Thanks!
> 
> FreeBSD beaglebone 11.0-ALPHA4 FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 #0 r302028M: Mon Jun 20 
> 18:19:55 EDT 2016 
> kwhite@freebsd11:/usr/obj/arm.armv6/usr/src/sys/BEAGLEBONE-LOCAL  arm armv6
> 
> ...keith


The patch also fixes the problem for me.

FreeBSD beaglebone 11.0-ALPHA4 FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 #2 r302030M: Tue Jun 21 
10:20:59 EDT 2016 
pmather@beaglebone:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/BEAGLEBONE-NO_WITNESS  arm


Cheers,

Paul.

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Re: [CFT] ypldap testing against OpenLDAP and Microsoft Active Directory

2016-06-21 Thread Alan Somers
On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 9:55 AM, Jan Bramkamp  wrote:
> On 18/06/16 17:15, Alan Somers wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 7:20 AM, Chris H  wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 08:03:55 -0400 Nikolai Lifanov
>>> 
>>> wrote
>>>
 On 06/14/2016 21:05, Marcelo Araujo wrote:
>
> 2016-06-15 8:17 GMT+08:00 Chris H :
>
>> On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:55:58 +0800 Marcelo Araujo
>> 
>> wrote
>>
>>> Hey,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the CFT Craig.
>>>
>>> 2016-06-09 14:41 GMT+08:00 Xin Li :
>>>


 On 6/8/16 23:10, Craig Rodrigues wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have worked with Marcelo Araujo to port OpenBSD's ypldap to
> FreeBSD
> current.
>
> In latest current, it should be possible to put in /etc/rc.conf:
>
> nis_ypldap_enable="YES"
> to activate the ypldap daemon.
>
> When set up properly, it should be possible to log into FreeBSD,
> and
>>
>> have
>
> the backend password database come from an LDAP database such
> as OpenLDAP
>
> There is some documentation for setting this up, but it is OpenBSD

 specific:
>
>
> http://obfuscurity.com/2009/08/OpenBSD-as-an-LDAP-Client
> http://puffysecurity.com/wiki/ypldap.html#2
>
> I did not bother porting the OpenBSD LDAP server to FreeBSD, so
> that
> information
> does not apply.  I figure that openldap from ports should work
> fine.
>
> I was wondering if there is someone out there familiar enough with
>>
>> LDAP
>
> and has a setup they can test this stuff out with, provide
> feedback,
>>
>> and
>
> help
> improve the documentation for FreeBSD?


 Looks like it would be a fun weekend project.  I've cc'ed a
 potential
 person who may be interested in this as well.

 But will this worth the effort? (I think the current implementation
 would do everything with plaintext protocol over wire, so while it
 extends life for legacy applications that are still using NIS/YP, it
 doesn't seem to be something that we should recommend end user to
 use?)

>>>
>>> I can see two good point to use ypldap that would be basically for
>>> users
>>> that needs to migrate from NIS to LDAP or need to make some
>>> integration
>>> between legacy(NIS) and LDAP during a transition period to LDAP.
>>>
>>> As mentioned, NIS is 'plain text' not safe by its nature, however
>>> there
>>
>> are
>>>
>>> still lots of people out there using NIS, and ypldap(8) is a good
>>> tool to
>>> help these people migrate to a more safe tool like LDAP.
>>>
>>>

> I would also be interested in hearing from someone who can see if
> ypldap can work against a Microsoft Active Directory setup?


 Cheers,


>>> All my tests were using OpenLDAP, I used the OpenBSD documentation to
>>
>> setup
>>>
>>> everything, and the file share/examples/ypldap/ypldap.conf can be a
>>> good
>>> start to anybody that wants to start to work with ypldap(8).
>>>
>>> Would be nice hear from other users how was their experience using
>>> ypldap
>>> with MS Active Directory and perhaps some HOWTO how they made all the
>>
>> setup
>>>
>>> would be amazing to have.
>>>
>>> Also, would be useful to know who are still using NIS and what kind
>>> of
>>> setup(user case), maybe even the reason why they are still using it.
>>
>>
>> Honestly, I think the best way to motivate people to do the right
>> thing(tm) Would be to remove Yellow Pages from the tree, entirely. :-)
>> It's been dead for *years*, and as you say, isn't safe, anyway..
>>
>
> Yes, I have a plan for that, but I don't believe it will happens before
> FreeBSD 12-RELEASE.
>

 Please don't, at least for now. NIS is fast, simple, reliable, and works
 on first boot without additional software. I have passwords in
 Kerberos, so the usual cons doesn't apply. This is very valuable to me.

 It's not hurting anyone. What's the motivation behind removing it?
>>>
>>>
>>> In all honesty, my comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But from
>>> a purely maintenance POV, at this point in time. I think the Yellow
>>> Pages are better suited for the ports tree, than in $BASE.
>>>
>>
>> It will be hard to wean people off of NIS as long as KGSSAPI is
>> disabled in GENERIC.  Does anybody know why it isn't enabled by
>> default?
>
>
> Because it's just a `kldload kgssapi` away. Put it in loader.conf or rc.conf
> depending on your needs/preferences.

Thanks Jan.  I didn

Re: [CFT] ypldap testing against OpenLDAP and Microsoft Active Directory

2016-06-21 Thread Jan Bramkamp

On 18/06/16 17:15, Alan Somers wrote:

On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 7:20 AM, Chris H  wrote:

On Wed, 15 Jun 2016 08:03:55 -0400 Nikolai Lifanov 
wrote


On 06/14/2016 21:05, Marcelo Araujo wrote:

2016-06-15 8:17 GMT+08:00 Chris H :


On Thu, 9 Jun 2016 17:55:58 +0800 Marcelo Araujo 
wrote


Hey,

Thanks for the CFT Craig.

2016-06-09 14:41 GMT+08:00 Xin Li :




On 6/8/16 23:10, Craig Rodrigues wrote:

Hi,

I have worked with Marcelo Araujo to port OpenBSD's ypldap to FreeBSD
current.

In latest current, it should be possible to put in /etc/rc.conf:

nis_ypldap_enable="YES"
to activate the ypldap daemon.

When set up properly, it should be possible to log into FreeBSD, and

have

the backend password database come from an LDAP database such
as OpenLDAP

There is some documentation for setting this up, but it is OpenBSD

specific:


http://obfuscurity.com/2009/08/OpenBSD-as-an-LDAP-Client
http://puffysecurity.com/wiki/ypldap.html#2

I did not bother porting the OpenBSD LDAP server to FreeBSD, so that
information
does not apply.  I figure that openldap from ports should work fine.

I was wondering if there is someone out there familiar enough with

LDAP

and has a setup they can test this stuff out with, provide feedback,

and

help
improve the documentation for FreeBSD?


Looks like it would be a fun weekend project.  I've cc'ed a potential
person who may be interested in this as well.

But will this worth the effort? (I think the current implementation
would do everything with plaintext protocol over wire, so while it
extends life for legacy applications that are still using NIS/YP, it
doesn't seem to be something that we should recommend end user to use?)



I can see two good point to use ypldap that would be basically for users
that needs to migrate from NIS to LDAP or need to make some integration
between legacy(NIS) and LDAP during a transition period to LDAP.

As mentioned, NIS is 'plain text' not safe by its nature, however there

are

still lots of people out there using NIS, and ypldap(8) is a good tool to
help these people migrate to a more safe tool like LDAP.





I would also be interested in hearing from someone who can see if
ypldap can work against a Microsoft Active Directory setup?


Cheers,



All my tests were using OpenLDAP, I used the OpenBSD documentation to

setup

everything, and the file share/examples/ypldap/ypldap.conf can be a good
start to anybody that wants to start to work with ypldap(8).

Would be nice hear from other users how was their experience using ypldap
with MS Active Directory and perhaps some HOWTO how they made all the

setup

would be amazing to have.

Also, would be useful to know who are still using NIS and what kind of
setup(user case), maybe even the reason why they are still using it.


Honestly, I think the best way to motivate people to do the right
thing(tm) Would be to remove Yellow Pages from the tree, entirely. :-)
It's been dead for *years*, and as you say, isn't safe, anyway..



Yes, I have a plan for that, but I don't believe it will happens before
FreeBSD 12-RELEASE.



Please don't, at least for now. NIS is fast, simple, reliable, and works
on first boot without additional software. I have passwords in
Kerberos, so the usual cons doesn't apply. This is very valuable to me.

It's not hurting anyone. What's the motivation behind removing it?


In all honesty, my comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. But from
a purely maintenance POV, at this point in time. I think the Yellow
Pages are better suited for the ports tree, than in $BASE.



It will be hard to wean people off of NIS as long as KGSSAPI is
disabled in GENERIC.  Does anybody know why it isn't enabled by
default?


Because it's just a `kldload kgssapi` away. Put it in loader.conf or 
rc.conf depending on your needs/preferences.

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geom_part: support < 128 GPT partition entries

2016-06-21 Thread Will Andrews
Hi,

I'd appreciate a review for: https://reviews.freebsd.org/D6900

Summary:
This change is useful primarily for using GPT on embedded boards like the
pine64 (and others using an Allwinner SoC) that want a firmware image loaded
below sector 34 (8K in that instance).

Note that because this changes g_part_scheme, it breaks the ABI.

Thanks!
-- 
wca


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Re: Intel Atom I2C

2016-06-21 Thread Imre Vadasz
Hi,

On 07:05 Tue 21 Jun , Lundberg, Johannes wrote:
> Hi Imre
> 
> Thanks for the info! May I ask, isn't your system UEFI, same as mine? Last
> I tried DragonFly didn't support UEFI...

Yes, the HP x2 210 is UEFI only, but DragonFly *can* boot from UEFI :)
I did a port of FreeBSD's UEFI bootloader to DragonFly, which I commited
ca. 2 months ago, and I added basic support in the kernel for UEFI booting.
Only UEFI support in DragonFly's installer is still missing :(

> 
> I also had hangs when probing certain I2C controller (maybe it was the
> 7th...)
> 
> Perhaps using linuxkpi and the linux driver would be a good option for
> this. i915 uses I2C and it works with basically unmodified Intel source
> code. Or maybe I try to port your efforts later :)

It's not really an option here, to use the linux driver, since this I2c
bus has to integrate tightly with the operating-system for the ACPI
operation region handling, and the I2cSerialBus resource handling.

> On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:00 AM, Imre Vadasz  wrote:
> 
> > So autodetection via smbus(4) probably shouldn't be used at all for this
> > kind of I2c/smbus.
> > On my HP x2 210 Cherryview tablet it even causes the system to hard freeze,
> > when running the autodetection on the 7th I2C controller.
> >
> > Imre
> >
> 
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Re: 11.0-ALPHA4 and VIMAGE

2016-06-21 Thread Jan Bramkamp



On 20/06/16 18:05, Bjoern A. Zeeb wrote:

Hi,

On 20 Jun 2016, at 15:37, Ernie Luzar wrote:


Hello list;

I have installed 11.0-ALPHA4-i386-20160617-r301975 to test VIMAGE.
I have read previous list posts saying vimage was going to be part of
the base system in 11.0.  When I configure a jail with vnet I get a
error typical of vimage not being compiled into the kernel.

To me it looks like vimage is not part of the base system in 11.0.

What is the status of vimage in 11.0?


I am not sure anyone said that it would be in GENERIC for 11.0.

The plan is to have it more stable and leak a lot less memory possibly
and some bits made it in to HEAD over the last months already, another
patch for a top-down teardown is in the review system, and I am
currently working on fixing a lot of pf.


Is there any hope reliable VIMAGE support will make it into the 11.0 
release?

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Re: Intel Atom I2C

2016-06-21 Thread Lundberg, Johannes
Hi Imre

Thanks for the info! May I ask, isn't your system UEFI, same as mine? Last
I tried DragonFly didn't support UEFI...

I also had hangs when probing certain I2C controller (maybe it was the
7th...)

Perhaps using linuxkpi and the linux driver would be a good option for
this. i915 uses I2C and it works with basically unmodified Intel source
code. Or maybe I try to port your efforts later :)


On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 7:00 AM, Imre Vadasz  wrote:

> So autodetection via smbus(4) probably shouldn't be used at all for this
> kind of I2c/smbus.
> On my HP x2 210 Cherryview tablet it even causes the system to hard freeze,
> when running the autodetection on the 7th I2C controller.
>
> Imre
>

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Re: Intel Atom I2C

2016-06-21 Thread Imre Vadasz
So autodetection via smbus(4) probably shouldn't be used at all for this
kind of I2c/smbus.
On my HP x2 210 Cherryview tablet it even causes the system to hard freeze,
when running the autodetection on the 7th I2C controller.

Imre
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Re: Intel Atom I2C

2016-06-21 Thread Imre Vadasz
Hi,

No driver for the DMA controller is needed for using the I2C controllers.
On many devices the I2C controllers are only mapped as ACPI devices, and
not as PCI-devices, but the existing ichiic driver can trivially be
adapted to attach via acpi, which is already done by DragonFly's ichiic:
https://gitweb.dragonflybsd.org/dragonfly.git/blob/HEAD:/sys/bus/smbus/ichiic/ig4_acpi.c


On many Cherryview devices, the I2C controller driver needs to install a
handler for ACPI accesses to I2cSerialBus fields inside of GenericSerialBus
operation regions.
I have already committed the I2cSerialBus operation region Field handling to
DraognFly master (implemented by the smbacpi(4) driver which attaches as a
child to ichiic:
  
https://gitweb.dragonflybsd.org/dragonfly.git/blob/HEAD:/sys/bus/smbus/smbacpi/smbacpi.c)

The I2cSerialBus operation region Field handling is e.g. needed on the
HP X2 210 tablet/detachable for the AC adapter and ACPI battery devices,
as well as for activating power on the external micro-sd card slot via
the sdhc controller's _PS0 ACPI-method.


Peripheral devices hanging on the I2c busses usually are detected as ACPI
devices, which have I2cSerialBus resource entries.
On current Cherryview devices the I2c peripheral devices usually aren't
explicitly child devices of the I2c-Controller devices, but the
I2cSerialBus resources contain a string which can be dereferenced to get
the corresponding I2c-bus device.
The same mechanism is used for mapping GPIO pins and GPIO interrupts
(with the GpioInt and GpioIo resource entries).

Also, since the I2c peripheral devices usually are no longer children of
the I2c-bus, the correct device attachement/initialization order needs to
be derived via the _DEP acpi methods.
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Re: console in 11.0-ALPHA4

2016-06-21 Thread Ed Maste
On the topic of vgl(3) specifically, in October 2014 I wrote on this list:

> vgl(3) is a graphics library for syscons(4) that provides some basic
> graphics operations (e.g. some mode setting, bitmaps, boxes,
> ellipses). Right now it does not support the newer vt(4) console.
>
> In order to help determine the priority of a porting effort to add
> vt(4) support I'd like to better understand where vgl is being used
> now. I'd be interested in hearing about both open source software
> using vgl as well as proprietary or internal applications. So if
> you're using vgl I'd appreciate a follow up (in private is fine) with
> a brief description of your use case.

That received exactly one private reply, where it was pointed out that
dosbox is an example consumer. Nobody replied to say they actually use
vgl(3).

I will post a followup to -stable to ask the same question, but
please, let me know if you use vgl(3) in open source or proprietary
software.
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Re: (beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Mark Millard
[A top-post of a new result: WiFI works fine too. Quotes are from input/output, 
with some redacting. This is the first time I've set up WiFi on FreeBSD.]

WiFI (urtwn0) also works fine for me with ssh on the rpi2 11.0 -r301975 
context. . .

> urtwn0:  on 
> usbus0
> urtwn0: MAC/BB RTL8188CUS, RF 6052 1T1R
> urtwn0: enabling 11n


> # ifconfig
. . .
> wlan0: flags=8843 metric 0 mtu 1500
> ether 
> inet 192.168.0.122 netmask 0xff00 broadcast 192.168.0.255 
> groups: wlan 
> ssid "Millard's AirPort2" channel 11 (2462 MHz 11g ht/20) bssid 
> regdomain FCC country US authmode WPA2/802.11i privacy ON
> deftxkey UNDEF TKIP 3:128-bit txpower 30 bmiss 7 scanvalid 60
> protmode CTS ht20 -ampdutx ampdurx ampdulimit 64k ampdudensity 4 -stbc
> wme roaming MANUAL
> media: IEEE 802.11 Wireless Ethernet MCS mode 11ng
> status: associated
> nd6 options=29


An ssh markmi@192.168.0.122 into the rpi2 from Mac OS X's terminal worked fine:

> Warning: Permanently added '192.168.0.122' (ECDSA) to the list of known hosts.
> Password for markmi@rpi2:
> Last login: Tue Jun 21 01:04:54 2016 from 192.168.0.105
> FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 (RPI2-NODBG) #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 18:12:02 PDT 2016
> 
> Welcome to FreeBSD!
> 
> Release Notes, Errata: https://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/
> Security Advisories:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/security/
> FreeBSD Handbook:  https://www.FreeBSD.org/handbook/
> FreeBSD FAQ:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/faq/
> Questions List: https://lists.FreeBSD.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions/
> FreeBSD Forums:https://forums.FreeBSD.org/
> 
> Documents installed with the system are in the /usr/local/share/doc/freebsd/
> directory, or can be installed later with:  pkg install en-freebsd-doc
> For other languages, replace "en" with a language code like de or fr.
> 
> Show the version of FreeBSD installed:  freebsd-version ; uname -a
> Please include that output and any error messages when posting questions.
> Introduction to manual pages:  man man
> FreeBSD directory layout:  man hier
> 
> Edit /etc/motd to change this login announcement.
> You can look through a file in a nice text-based interface by typing
> 
>   less filename
> $ 

The problem is apparently not general to all armv6 WiFi contexts.

I'll note that I did not disable or unplug the wired Ethernet.

===
Mark Millard
markmi at dsl-only.net

On 2016-Jun-21, at 4:14 AM, Mark Millard  wrote:

> On 2016-Jun-21, at 3:33 AM, Keith White  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Mark Millard wrote:
>> 
>>> Otacílio otacilio.neto at bsd.com.br wrote on Tue Jun 21 00:06:39 UTC 2016 :
>>> 
> The kernel panic is totally reproducible. I need only do a ssh in the
> beaglebone using ptty on windows or ssh on freebsd and the kernel > panic 
> is raised.
>>> . . .
 FreeBSD11-ALPHA4 shows the same behavior. The only thing that I need to 
 raise the fault is ssh in the beaglebone.
>>> 
>>> (After this quotes are command input/output from my test activity.)
>>> 
>>> Under 11.0 -r310975 on a rpi2 I can ssh out of the rpi2 just fine. . .
>>> 
 # uname -apKU
 FreeBSD rpi2 11.0-ALPHA4 FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 
 18:12:02 PDT 2016 
 markmi@FreeBSDx64:/usr/obj/clang/arm.armv6/usr/src/sys/RPI2-NODBG  arm 
 armv6 1100117 1100117
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This is a no-debug kernel build (but with symbols). Details are given later 
>>> below.
>>> 
 # ssh markmi@192.168.0.105
 Password:
 Last login: Tue Jun 21 01:04:46 2016
 markmi$ 
>>> 
>>> Similarly I can ssh into the rpi2 from outside, here using new remote 
>>> connection in Mac OS X terminal: ssh 192.168.0.119 resulted in. . .
>>> 
 Password for markmi@rpi2:
 Last login: Mon May  9 19:27:33 2016 from 192.168.2.1
 FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 (RPI2-NODBG) #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 18:12:02 PDT 2016
 Welcome to FreeBSD!
 Release Notes, Errata: https://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/
 Security Advisories:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/security/
 FreeBSD Handbook:  https://www.FreeBSD.org/handbook/
 FreeBSD FAQ:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/faq/
 Questions List: 
 https://lists.FreeBSD.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions/
 FreeBSD Forums:https://forums.FreeBSD.org/
 Documents installed with the system are in the 
 /usr/local/share/doc/freebsd/
 directory, or can be installed later with:  pkg install en-freebsd-doc
 For other languages, replace "en" with a language code like de or fr.
 Show the version of FreeBSD installed:  freebsd-version ; uname -a
 Please include that output and any error messages when posting questions.
 Introduction to manual pages:  man man
 FreeBSD directory layout:  man hier
 Edit /etc/motd to change this login announcement.
 To determine whether a file is a text file, executable, or some other type
 of file, use
 
file filen

Re: (beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Mark Millard
On 2016-Jun-21, at 3:33 AM, Keith White  wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Mark Millard wrote:
> 
>> Otacílio otacilio.neto at bsd.com.br wrote on Tue Jun 21 00:06:39 UTC 2016 :
>> 
>>> > The kernel panic is totally reproducible. I need only do a ssh in the
>>> > beaglebone using ptty on windows or ssh on freebsd and the kernel > panic 
>>> > is raised.
>> . . .
>>> FreeBSD11-ALPHA4 shows the same behavior. The only thing that I need to 
>>> raise the fault is ssh in the beaglebone.
>> 
>> (After this quotes are command input/output from my test activity.)
>> 
>> Under 11.0 -r310975 on a rpi2 I can ssh out of the rpi2 just fine. . .
>> 
>>> # uname -apKU
>>> FreeBSD rpi2 11.0-ALPHA4 FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 
>>> 18:12:02 PDT 2016 
>>> markmi@FreeBSDx64:/usr/obj/clang/arm.armv6/usr/src/sys/RPI2-NODBG  arm 
>>> armv6 1100117 1100117
>> 
>> 
>> This is a no-debug kernel build (but with symbols). Details are given later 
>> below.
>> 
>>> # ssh markmi@192.168.0.105
>>> Password:
>>> Last login: Tue Jun 21 01:04:46 2016
>>> markmi$ 
>> 
>> Similarly I can ssh into the rpi2 from outside, here using new remote 
>> connection in Mac OS X terminal: ssh 192.168.0.119 resulted in. . .
>> 
>>> Password for markmi@rpi2:
>>> Last login: Mon May  9 19:27:33 2016 from 192.168.2.1
>>> FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 (RPI2-NODBG) #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 18:12:02 PDT 2016
>>> Welcome to FreeBSD!
>>> Release Notes, Errata: https://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/
>>> Security Advisories:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/security/
>>> FreeBSD Handbook:  https://www.FreeBSD.org/handbook/
>>> FreeBSD FAQ:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/faq/
>>> Questions List: 
>>> https://lists.FreeBSD.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions/
>>> FreeBSD Forums:https://forums.FreeBSD.org/
>>> Documents installed with the system are in the /usr/local/share/doc/freebsd/
>>> directory, or can be installed later with:  pkg install en-freebsd-doc
>>> For other languages, replace "en" with a language code like de or fr.
>>> Show the version of FreeBSD installed:  freebsd-version ; uname -a
>>> Please include that output and any error messages when posting questions.
>>> Introduction to manual pages:  man man
>>> FreeBSD directory layout:  man hier
>>> Edit /etc/motd to change this login announcement.
>>> To determine whether a file is a text file, executable, or some other type
>>> of file, use
>>> 
>>> file filename
>>> -- Dru 
>>> $ 
>> 
>> No panics or other odd notices.
>> 
>> The problem is apparently not general to all armv6 contexts.
>> 
>> Various context details follow. . .
>> 
>>> # more ~/src.configs/src.conf.rpi2-clang-bootstrap.rpi2-host TO_TYPE=armv6
>>> #
>>> KERNCONF=RPI2-NODBG
>>> TARGET=arm
>>> .if ${.MAKE.LEVEL} == 0
>>> TARGET_ARCH=${TO_TYPE}
>>> .export TARGET_ARCH
>>> .endif
>>> #
>>> #WITH_CROSS_COMPILER=
>>> WITH_SYSTEM_COMPILER=
>>> #
>>> #CPUTYPE=soft
>>> WITH_LIBSOFT=
>>> WITH_LIBCPLUSPLUS=
>>> WITH_BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP=
>>> #WITHOUT_CLANG_BOOTSTRAP=
>>> WITH_CLANG=
>>> WITH_CLANG_IS_CC=
>>> WITH_CLANG_FULL=
>>> WITH_CLANG_EXTRAS=
>>> WITH_LLDB=
>>> #
>>> WITH_BOOT=
>>> WITHOUT_LIB32=
>>> #
>>> WITHOUT_ELFTOOLCHAIN_BOOTSTRAP=
>>> WITHOUT_GCC_BOOTSTRAP=
>>> WITHOUT_GCC=
>>> WITHOUT_GCC_IS_CC=
>>> WITHOUT_GNUCXX=
>>> #
>>> NO_WERROR=
>>> #WERROR=
>>> MALLOC_PRODUCTION=
>>> #
>>> WITH_DEBUG_FILES=
>>> #
>>> XCFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
>>> XCXXFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
>>> # There is no XCPPFLAGS but XCPP ets XCFLAGS content.
>> 
>> ~/src.configs/make.conf was empty.
>> 
>>> # more /usr/src/sys/arm/conf/RPI2-NODBG
>>> #
>>> # RPI2 -- Custom configuration for the Raspberry Pi 2
>>> #
>>> # For more information on this file, please read the config(5) manual page,
>>> # and/or the handbook section on Kernel Configuration Files:
>>> #
>>> #
>>> http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/kernelconfig-config.html
>>> #
>>> # The handbook is also available locally in /usr/share/doc/handbook
>>> # if you've installed the doc distribution, otherwise always see the
>>> # FreeBSD World Wide Web server (http://www.FreeBSD.org/) for the
>>> # latest information.
>>> #
>>> # An exhaustive list of options and more detailed explanations of the
>>> # device lines is also present in the ../../conf/NOTES and NOTES files.
>>> # If you are in doubt as to the purpose or necessity of a line, check first
>>> # in NOTES.
>>> #
>>> ident   RPI2-NODBG
>>> include "RPI2"
>>> makeoptions DEBUG=-g# Build kernel with gdb(1) debug 
>>> symbols
>>> options ALT_BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER
>>> #optionsVERBOSE_SYSINIT # Enable verbose sysinit messages
>>> options KDB # Enable kernel debugger support
>>> # For minimum debugger support (stable branch) use:
>>> #optionsKDB_TRACE   # Print a stack trace for a panic
>>> options DDB # Enable the kernel debugger
>>> nooptions 

Re: (beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Otacílio

Em 21/06/2016 07:33, Keith White escreveu:

In an earlier message Ian said that he thought he knew what the
problem was... 


Here the problem occurs  when using wifi. I do not have tested wired 
because I don't have a cable here.



[]'s

-Otacilio

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Re: (beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Keith White

On Tue, 21 Jun 2016, Mark Millard wrote:


Otacílio otacilio.neto at bsd.com.br wrote on Tue Jun 21 00:06:39 UTC 2016 :


> The kernel panic is totally reproducible. I need only do a ssh in the
> beaglebone using ptty on windows or ssh on freebsd and the kernel 
> panic is raised.

. . .
FreeBSD11-ALPHA4 shows the same behavior. The only thing that I need to 
raise the fault is ssh in the beaglebone.


(After this quotes are command input/output from my test activity.)

Under 11.0 -r310975 on a rpi2 I can ssh out of the rpi2 just fine. . .


# uname -apKU
FreeBSD rpi2 11.0-ALPHA4 FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 18:12:02 
PDT 2016 markmi@FreeBSDx64:/usr/obj/clang/arm.armv6/usr/src/sys/RPI2-NODBG  
arm armv6 1100117 1100117



This is a no-debug kernel build (but with symbols). Details are given later 
below.


# ssh markmi@192.168.0.105
Password:
Last login: Tue Jun 21 01:04:46 2016
markmi$ 


Similarly I can ssh into the rpi2 from outside, here using new remote 
connection in Mac OS X terminal: ssh 192.168.0.119 resulted in. . .


Password for markmi@rpi2:
Last login: Mon May  9 19:27:33 2016 from 192.168.2.1
FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 (RPI2-NODBG) #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 18:12:02 PDT 2016

Welcome to FreeBSD!

Release Notes, Errata: https://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/
Security Advisories:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/security/
FreeBSD Handbook:  https://www.FreeBSD.org/handbook/
FreeBSD FAQ:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/faq/
Questions List: https://lists.FreeBSD.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions/
FreeBSD Forums:https://forums.FreeBSD.org/

Documents installed with the system are in the /usr/local/share/doc/freebsd/
directory, or can be installed later with:  pkg install en-freebsd-doc
For other languages, replace "en" with a language code like de or fr.

Show the version of FreeBSD installed:  freebsd-version ; uname -a
Please include that output and any error messages when posting questions.
Introduction to manual pages:  man man
FreeBSD directory layout:  man hier

Edit /etc/motd to change this login announcement.
To determine whether a file is a text file, executable, or some other type
of file, use

file filename
-- Dru 
$ 


No panics or other odd notices.

The problem is apparently not general to all armv6 contexts.

Various context details follow. . .

# more ~/src.configs/src.conf.rpi2-clang-bootstrap.rpi2-host 
TO_TYPE=armv6

#
KERNCONF=RPI2-NODBG
TARGET=arm
.if ${.MAKE.LEVEL} == 0
TARGET_ARCH=${TO_TYPE}
.export TARGET_ARCH
.endif
#
#WITH_CROSS_COMPILER=
WITH_SYSTEM_COMPILER=
#
#CPUTYPE=soft
WITH_LIBSOFT=
WITH_LIBCPLUSPLUS=
WITH_BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP=
#WITHOUT_CLANG_BOOTSTRAP=
WITH_CLANG=
WITH_CLANG_IS_CC=
WITH_CLANG_FULL=
WITH_CLANG_EXTRAS=
WITH_LLDB=
#
WITH_BOOT=
WITHOUT_LIB32=
#
WITHOUT_ELFTOOLCHAIN_BOOTSTRAP=
WITHOUT_GCC_BOOTSTRAP=
WITHOUT_GCC=
WITHOUT_GCC_IS_CC=
WITHOUT_GNUCXX=
#
NO_WERROR=
#WERROR=
MALLOC_PRODUCTION=
#
WITH_DEBUG_FILES=
#
XCFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
XCXXFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
# There is no XCPPFLAGS but XCPP ets XCFLAGS content.


~/src.configs/make.conf was empty.


# more /usr/src/sys/arm/conf/RPI2-NODBG
#
# RPI2 -- Custom configuration for the Raspberry Pi 2
#
# For more information on this file, please read the config(5) manual page,
# and/or the handbook section on Kernel Configuration Files:
#
#
http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/kernelconfig-config.html
#
# The handbook is also available locally in /usr/share/doc/handbook
# if you've installed the doc distribution, otherwise always see the
# FreeBSD World Wide Web server (http://www.FreeBSD.org/) for the
# latest information.
#
# An exhaustive list of options and more detailed explanations of the
# device lines is also present in the ../../conf/NOTES and NOTES files.
# If you are in doubt as to the purpose or necessity of a line, check first
# in NOTES.
#

ident   RPI2-NODBG

include "RPI2"

makeoptions DEBUG=-g# Build kernel with gdb(1) debug symbols
options ALT_BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER
#optionsVERBOSE_SYSINIT # Enable verbose sysinit messages

options KDB # Enable kernel debugger support

# For minimum debugger support (stable branch) use:
#optionsKDB_TRACE   # Print a stack trace for a panic
options DDB # Enable the kernel debugger

nooptions   INVARIANTS  # Enable calls of extra sanity checking
nooptions   INVARIANT_SUPPORT   # Extra sanity checks of internal 
structures, required by INVARIANTS
nooptions   WITNESS # Enable checks to detect deadlocks and 
cycles
nooptions   WITNESS_SKIPSPIN# Don't run witness on spinlocks for 
speed
nooptions   DIAGNOSTIC



My /usr/src tree has some changes/additions --but mostly for powerpc64 and 
powerpc issues:


# svnlite status /usr/src/
M   /usr/src/contrib/llvm/lib/CodeGen/Sele

(beagleboneblack/urtwn) Kernel page fault with the following non-sleepable locks held [ssh on rpi2 comparison]

2016-06-21 Thread Mark Millard
Otacílio otacilio.neto at bsd.com.br wrote on Tue Jun 21 00:06:39 UTC 2016 :

> > The kernel panic is totally reproducible. I need only do a ssh in the
> > beaglebone using ptty on windows or ssh on freebsd and the kernel 
> > panic is raised.
. . .
> FreeBSD11-ALPHA4 shows the same behavior. The only thing that I need to 
> raise the fault is ssh in the beaglebone.

(After this quotes are command input/output from my test activity.)

Under 11.0 -r310975 on a rpi2 I can ssh out of the rpi2 just fine. . .

> # uname -apKU
> FreeBSD rpi2 11.0-ALPHA4 FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 18:12:02 
> PDT 2016 
> markmi@FreeBSDx64:/usr/obj/clang/arm.armv6/usr/src/sys/RPI2-NODBG  arm armv6 
> 1100117 1100117


This is a no-debug kernel build (but with symbols). Details are given later 
below.

> # ssh markmi@192.168.0.105
> Password:
> Last login: Tue Jun 21 01:04:46 2016
> markmi$ 

Similarly I can ssh into the rpi2 from outside, here using new remote 
connection in Mac OS X terminal: ssh 192.168.0.119 resulted in. . .

> Password for markmi@rpi2:
> Last login: Mon May  9 19:27:33 2016 from 192.168.2.1
> FreeBSD 11.0-ALPHA4 (RPI2-NODBG) #1 r301975M: Thu Jun 16 18:12:02 PDT 2016
> 
> Welcome to FreeBSD!
> 
> Release Notes, Errata: https://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/
> Security Advisories:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/security/
> FreeBSD Handbook:  https://www.FreeBSD.org/handbook/
> FreeBSD FAQ:   https://www.FreeBSD.org/faq/
> Questions List: https://lists.FreeBSD.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions/
> FreeBSD Forums:https://forums.FreeBSD.org/
> 
> Documents installed with the system are in the /usr/local/share/doc/freebsd/
> directory, or can be installed later with:  pkg install en-freebsd-doc
> For other languages, replace "en" with a language code like de or fr.
> 
> Show the version of FreeBSD installed:  freebsd-version ; uname -a
> Please include that output and any error messages when posting questions.
> Introduction to manual pages:  man man
> FreeBSD directory layout:  man hier
> 
> Edit /etc/motd to change this login announcement.
> To determine whether a file is a text file, executable, or some other type
> of file, use
> 
>   file filename
>   -- Dru 
> $ 

No panics or other odd notices.

The problem is apparently not general to all armv6 contexts.

Various context details follow. . .

> # more ~/src.configs/src.conf.rpi2-clang-bootstrap.rpi2-host 
> TO_TYPE=armv6
> #
> KERNCONF=RPI2-NODBG
> TARGET=arm
> .if ${.MAKE.LEVEL} == 0
> TARGET_ARCH=${TO_TYPE}
> .export TARGET_ARCH
> .endif
> #
> #WITH_CROSS_COMPILER=
> WITH_SYSTEM_COMPILER=
> #
> #CPUTYPE=soft
> WITH_LIBSOFT=
> WITH_LIBCPLUSPLUS=
> WITH_BINUTILS_BOOTSTRAP=
> #WITHOUT_CLANG_BOOTSTRAP=
> WITH_CLANG=
> WITH_CLANG_IS_CC=
> WITH_CLANG_FULL=
> WITH_CLANG_EXTRAS=
> WITH_LLDB=
> #
> WITH_BOOT=
> WITHOUT_LIB32=
> #
> WITHOUT_ELFTOOLCHAIN_BOOTSTRAP=
> WITHOUT_GCC_BOOTSTRAP=
> WITHOUT_GCC=
> WITHOUT_GCC_IS_CC=
> WITHOUT_GNUCXX=
> #
> NO_WERROR=
> #WERROR=
> MALLOC_PRODUCTION=
> #
> WITH_DEBUG_FILES=
> #
> XCFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
> XCXXFLAGS+= -march=armv7-a -mcpu=cortex-a7
> # There is no XCPPFLAGS but XCPP ets XCFLAGS content.

~/src.configs/make.conf was empty.

> # more /usr/src/sys/arm/conf/RPI2-NODBG
> #
> # RPI2 -- Custom configuration for the Raspberry Pi 2
> #
> # For more information on this file, please read the config(5) manual page,
> # and/or the handbook section on Kernel Configuration Files:
> #
> #
> http://www.FreeBSD.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/kernelconfig-config.html
> #
> # The handbook is also available locally in /usr/share/doc/handbook
> # if you've installed the doc distribution, otherwise always see the
> # FreeBSD World Wide Web server (http://www.FreeBSD.org/) for the
> # latest information.
> #
> # An exhaustive list of options and more detailed explanations of the
> # device lines is also present in the ../../conf/NOTES and NOTES files.
> # If you are in doubt as to the purpose or necessity of a line, check first
> # in NOTES.
> #
>  
> ident   RPI2-NODBG
>  
> include "RPI2"
>  
> makeoptions DEBUG=-g# Build kernel with gdb(1) debug 
> symbols
> options ALT_BREAK_TO_DEBUGGER
> #optionsVERBOSE_SYSINIT # Enable verbose sysinit messages
>  
> options KDB # Enable kernel debugger support
>  
> # For minimum debugger support (stable branch) use:
> #optionsKDB_TRACE   # Print a stack trace for a panic
> options DDB # Enable the kernel debugger
>  
> nooptions   INVARIANTS  # Enable calls of extra sanity 
> checking
> nooptions   INVARIANT_SUPPORT   # Extra sanity checks of internal 
> structures, required by INVARIANTS
> nooptions   WITNESS # Enable checks to detect deadlocks 
> and cycles
> nooptions   WITNESS_SKIPSPIN# Don't run witness on spinlocks for

Re: console in 11.0-ALPHA4

2016-06-21 Thread O. Hartmann
On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 22:11:52 -0700
"Chris H"  wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Jun 2016 16:22:53 -0700 John Baldwin  wrote
> 
> > On Monday, June 20, 2016 04:54:11 PM Ernie Luzar wrote:  
> > > Ed Maste wrote:  
> > > > On 20 June 2016 at 14:29, Ernie Luzar  wrote:  
> > > >> I found the cause of this boot time message
> > > >> "vicontrol: setting cursor type: Inappropriate ioctl for device"
> > > >>
> > > >> In my rc.conf I had this statement
> > > >> vidcontrol -c blink -h 250
> > > >> From testing it seems that vt does not handle the "blink" option for
> > > >> causing the cursor to blink. Is there a vt option to enable cursor 
> > > >> blinking > >   
> > > > I've submitted two PRs for the issues you reported here:
> > > > Bug 210413 - vidcontrol -c  does not work with
> > > > vt(4) Bug 210415 - vidcontrol -h  does not work with vt(4)
> > > > (edit) 
> > > > There is currently no option to enable cursor blinking.  
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Further testing shows that:
> > > 
> > > 1. The rc.conf option screen saver "saver= " and the "blanktime= " 
> > > options work in vt for both text and graph modes.
> > > 
> > > 2. The cursor copy/paste does not work in vt text mode. It only works in 
> > > vt graph mode. vt needs to be fixed so copy/paste function also works in 
> > > text mode.
> > > 
> > > 3. Boot time splash screen does not work in vt at all no matter which 
> > > mode is enabled. Using this in loader.conf
> > > splash_bmp_load="YES"
> > > bitmap_name="/boot/splash.bmp"
> > > bitload_load="YES"
> > > 
> > > This works in 10.x. The splash screen function can not be allowed to be 
> > > removed from the base system just because vt can not handle it. This 
> > > also means any vt changes need to updated in the handbook section on 
> > > splash screen.
> > > 
> > > In conclusion, vt is not ready to replace the sc console driver yet. vt 
> > > needs to be fixed before becoming the default in 11.0. Using vt as the 
> > > default console driver effects every user. It completely changes the 
> > > FreeBSD experience. It's detrimental to the public relations and the 
> > > professional image of FreeBSD to publish the 11.0-RELEASE using vt in 
> > > its current condition. If time doesn't permit to get these vt things 
> > > fixed before publishing 11.0 then vt should not become the default 
> > > console driver.  
> > 
> > OTOH, if you use EFI, then you can't use sc(4).  You get no working console
> > with EFI (which is becoming more popular) if you use sc(4).  You also do
> > not get non-ASCII characters with sc(4), so you don't have a UTF-8 capable
> > console if you use sc(4).  You also do not have a working console after
> > loading the KMS drivers (either by starting X or via explicit kldload) when
> > using sc(4).  This affects just about every modern Intel system using an
> > Intel GPU (so more widespread than EFI even).
> > 
> > There are tradeoffs in both directions.  Neither console is a subset of the
> > other.  However, sc(4) is not really extendable to support the things it is
> > missing.  vt(4) is actively worked on, and patches for the features it lacks
> > that you need are certainly welcomed.  
> AMD, and ATI are also quite popular, as well as nVidia. In the case of
> nVidia, vt(4) is nearly as good as sc(4) on/in [U]EFI.

most recent nVidia BLOBs (starting with the separation of the kernel module in
nvidia-modset.ko and nvidia.ko kernel object modules) do not work properly
nor with sc(4), neither vt(4) on most recent CURRENT! See 

https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=201340

With non-UEFI, die console is unusable due to some weird 1980s blocky-coloured
signs in 80x25 col/rows, with UEFI there is simply black screen when switching
to console - this is the fact as long the nvidia-modeset.ko is loaded. After
unloading, the problems disappear.

And by the way: at the moment nVidia's offering of a BLOB is the only, and THE
only way to provide acceptable support and performnce for recent and modern
GPUs. Since many people or those making decissions are not inclined to purchase
"old" but working stuff for a perspective of 3-5 years, a working console
seemes to me to be important.
 
> 
> I think the [original] point here was; for all that vt(4) intends to
> provide, it's just not ready for prime time, and as such, shouldn't
> be made default, just yet. :-)
> 
> --Chris
> > 
> > -- 
> > John Baldwin  
> 
> 
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