Re: Git/Mtn for FreeBSD, PGP WoT Sigs, Merkel Hash Tree Based
On Mon, 7 Oct 2019 at 08:43, grarpamp wrote: > > On 10/4/19, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 22:01, grarpamp wrote: > >> > >> For consideration... > >> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-security/2019-September/010099.html > >> > >> SVN really may not offer much in the way of native > >> internal self authenticating repo to cryptographic levels > >> of security against bitrot, transit corruption and repo ops, > >> external physical editing, have much signing options, etc. > >> Similar to blockchain and ZFS hash merkle-ization, > >> signing the repo init and later points tags commits, > >> along with full verification toolset, is useful function. > > > > > > > > > > Isn't UNIX(TM) philosophy that a program should do one thing and do it > > well? Just because people can't be bothered to learn to use multiple > > tools to do *multiple* tasks on the same dataset, is not a reason, let > > alone "the reason," to increase any program complexity to orders of > > N^M^K^L so that one "foo checkout" does all the things one wants! > > Was r353001 cryptosigned so people can verify it with > a second standalone multiple tool called "PGP", after the > first standalone multiple tool called "repo checkout"? > Was it crypto chained back into a crypto history so they could > treat it as a secure diff (the function of a third standalone multiple > tool "diff a b") instead of as entirely separate (and space wasting > set of) unlinked independant assertions / issuances as to a state? > How much time does that take over time each time vs > perhaps loading signed set of keys into repo client config. I'm guessing they are rhetorical questions; but you ought to look up how to do tool chaining in any flavour in UNIX(TM). > Is LOGO and tape better because less complex tool than C and disk. For some people, perhaps. > > crypto IS NOT a substitute for good data keeping > > practices. > > Who said that it was. However it can be a wrapper of > proof / certification / detection / assurance / integrity / test > over them... a good thing to have there, as opposed to nothing. What is the specific risk model you're mitigating---all you say is hugely speculative?! > > Also, what empirical data do you have for repo bitrot/transit > > corruption that is NOT caught by underlying media? > > Why are people even bothering to sha-2 or sign iso's, or > reproducible builds? There is some integrity function there. > Else just quit doing those too then. Funny you should say that, Microsoft, for example, don't checksum their ISOs for the OSes. You missed the point about reproducible builds entirely: given code A from Alice and package B from Bob, Charlie can compile package C from A and verify that C is identical to B, a simple `diff' of binaries is sufficient for that! The problem is that a lot of the time code A itself is buggy to such degree that it's vulnerable to attack (recall Heartbleed, for example). Crappy code is not mitigated by any layer of additional integrity checking of the same crappy code! > Many sources people can find, just search... > https://www.zdnet.com/article/dram-error-rates-nightmare-on-dimm-street/ > http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/sigmetrics09.pdf > http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~bianca/papers/ASPLOS2012.pdf > https://www.jedec.org/sites/default/files/Barbara_A_summary.pdf > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_degradation > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECC_memory > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_error I don't bother with second-hand rumors on WikiPedia so I'm not even going to bother looking there, but as for the rest, seriously, you're quoting a study of DDR1 and DDR2??? I have it on good authority that when at least one manufactured moved to smaller die process for DDR3 they saw the error rates plummet to their own surprise (as they were expecting the opposite) and now we're on DDR4, and what's the die size there?.. Perhaps you need to look into the error rates of EDO RAM et al too? In any event, ECC, integrity checking etc is done on the underlying media to detect and in some cases correct errors so you have to worry less about it at higher levels, so getting so obsessed by it is just silly especially advocating for a tool to do it all in one go! Here's a question to ponder: if code set X, certificate Y, and signed digest Z are stored on one media (remote server in your case), and your computed digest doesn't match digest Z, what part was corrupt, X, Y, or Z, or your checksumming? > Already have RowHammer too, who is researching DiskHammer? And RowHammer has been successf
Re: Core: Yes please, Code of Conduct committee: No Thanks.
On Tue, 21 May 2019 at 11:30, Dima Pasechnik wrote:
> Anyway, as someone
> who has been chased upon by a gang of youths screaming "zhidovskaya
> morda" ("Jewish snout") (Moscow, USSR, circa 1975, tough
> neighbourhood, and well, I have a Jewish grandmother)
You're conflating freedom of expression with wanton action of agression
> I absolutely do
> not appreciate the sort of thoughtless "freedom of speech" blah blah,
> as far as expressions of hate towards particular ethnic groups are .
Luckily most societies have more wisdom than you and elect to have
free and open discussion and chose to not oppress.
> Because they always incite violence.
That is a gross overgeneralisation with absolutely zero foundation. If
you say that PHK's expression was hate towards one specific group, and
you assert that that "always" incites violence, what violence followed
PHK's expression? Either show demonstrable violence or your statement
falls flat on its face.
> And yes, in USSR persons with ethnically Jewish parents had "Jew"
> written in their internal IDs (just like in Nazi Germany).
I lived in the USSR, my parents lived in the USSR, my grandparents
lived in the USSR and I don't recall anything of the sort, nor do I
recall a huge jewish population of Odessa, for example, even bringing
this up as an issue during Perestroyka or post break up. Or do you
mean that the USSR passports identified *ethnicity* of the bearer,
like Pole, Ukrainian, Uzbek, Moldav, Jew?.. I think you're taking
things hugely out of context and trying to make something out of
nothing, because if inserting one's ethnicity into a passport or any
state-issued ID is "an act of hate" as you seem to assert, then my UK
driving licence, and by implication the UK Government, is full of
"hate speech"!
> Under this
> commonly accepted definition, saying "I hate Jews", as Mr. Kamp did on
> twitter, is full-blown racism, and Mr. Kamp ought to offer an apology
> for this - while he does not do it in
> http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/israel/
I love when people find a text, then select words from it choosing to
omit the rest! Here's how freedom of expression works: A makes a
reasoned expression of opinion/view. B might not like the conclusion
or premise. Any person of reasonably intelligence can (a) ignore A
altogether; (b) engage in a discussion with A (quite frankly PKH's
expression is fully argued, as in he gives his reasons) to change his
mind by counter-arguments; a person without any argument usually
claims some nonsense to get some liberal snowflakes on their side and
try to silence the different view using "megaphone diplomacy."
For what it's worth, I actually read all the statements made by PHK
and there is no incitement of violence or anything of the sort, all he
said was X because of Y. I think his reasoning is a bit stretched and
if one were really interested in what he was saying instead of
obsessively crucifying him, one could change his mind. Hint: that's
the whole premise of "freedom of expression"---someone says something
unpalatable, you engage, you could change their mind, they could
change your mind, or you could agree to disagree... Yet we seem to be
going the way of Romans at best, and some already lining up for a
tameshigiri.
> While in some jurisdictions hate speech is legally protected, it does
> not take away the hate in hate speech, and people generally don't like
> being hated. Hate originating from a freebsd.* domain is not good for
> the project.
Perhaps you could show concrete examples of such "hate" from that
specific domain, I seem to struggle to find any.
> Let me point few things in the latter:
>
> * there is nothing like "the jewish religion" - there is a religion
> called Judaism, as Mr. Kamp ought to understand before
> making statements on these. Everyone can convert to Judaism, by the way.
>
> * Jews who are not Israeli citizens are about as responsible for
> policies of Israel as descendants of Vikings areresponsible for
> policies of Scandinavian states of today.
Oh look, you're perfectly capable of engaging in a reasoned argument
(and these two are a number of reasons why I though his reasoning was
"a bit stretched")! You make good and valid points, so engage, and
change his mind!
--
Igor M.
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Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
So you think a discussion on whether it is appropriate that CoC Ctte restricts freedom of expression is bikeshedding? Thank you for your valuable contribution! -- Igor M. On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 06:23, Daniel Braniss wrote: > > BIKE SHED SYNDROME? > > danny > PS: intentionally top posting :-) > > > On 19 May 2019, at 22:43, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > > > On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 20:16, Warner Losh wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > >>> > >>> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell > >>>> fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as > >>> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded > >>> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or > >>> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is > >>> triggered by precisely the latter. > >> > >> > >> It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its > >> members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm > >> comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme > >> it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness > >> of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so > >> extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There > >> needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. > > > > It's very difficult to subscribe to that view! The first problem you > > encounter is "what is an objectively extreme expression"--what is > > extreme to one, might be entirely common place to another. I'm sure > > whatever religious book one takes there is a passage that goes along > > the lines of "judge people by their deeds not by their words"... > > Secondly, the greatest legal minds in the US wrangled with that and > > came up with one answer: *ANY* expression is protected for otherwise > > it would not be "freedom." > > > > > >> At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered > >> for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from > >> the project that could otherwise be spent on making things > >> better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad > >> consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, > >> as well as having a fair and just response by the board in > >> the cases that require some action. > > > > > > Agreement by consensus is most dangerous, for, usually, the loudest > > wins because people with no backbone fall in-line; the best > > explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a > > sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Mon, 20 May 2019 at 09:20, David Chisnall wrote: > > On 19 May 2019, at 20:43, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > > > the best > > explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a > > sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" > > If you believe that this quote in any way supports your argument, then I > would suggest that you work through the game theoretic implications of this > structure. > > (Hint: if the sheep can abstain, the sheep is never eaten and even without > abstention the sheep isn’t going to be eaten today) Wow, what an art of arbitrary context switching! If anything, you demonstrate utter failure of understanding how the herd-rule^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdemocracy works: "majority wins;" for some contrived reason you seem to think that *everyone* needs to have voted... On top of that, if you want people to hear you, quit making opaque assertions, and muster some brain cells to set out an argument... Regardless, you, too, are attempting to (rather badly) reframe the original problem and divert discussion, and the original problem was whether or not CoC should restrict freedom of expression. Do you have anything to say on *this* topic? -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 20:16, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 11:34 AM Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> >> On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: >> > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell >> > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. >> >> >> >> While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as >> "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded >> theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or >> opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is >> triggered by precisely the latter. > > > It is a difficult problem. The project needs to protect itself and its > members from harm. Sometimes, though rarely, that harm > comes from expressing ones views in a way that's so extreme > it causes real and lasting problems either for the cohesiveness > of the project, or its effect on the project's reputation is so > extreme, people can't separate the two and stop using it. There > needs to be a review mechanism for cases that are extreme. It's very difficult to subscribe to that view! The first problem you encounter is "what is an objectively extreme expression"--what is extreme to one, might be entirely common place to another. I'm sure whatever religious book one takes there is a passage that goes along the lines of "judge people by their deeds not by their words"... Secondly, the greatest legal minds in the US wrangled with that and came up with one answer: *ANY* expression is protected for otherwise it would not be "freedom." >At the same time, reviews are detrimental if they are triggered > for 'ordinary' conduct: they take time and energy away from > the project that could otherwise be spent on making things > better. The trick is to have any such review reflect the broad > consensus within the project of what's clearly out of bounds, > as well as having a fair and just response by the board in > the cases that require some action. Agreement by consensus is most dangerous, for, usually, the loudest wins because people with no backbone fall in-line; the best explanation of democracy I have ever heard was: "two wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner!" -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:54, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Sun, May 19, 2019, 10:25 AM Graham Perrin wrote: > > > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but > > these six words did make me chuckle: > > > > > … freedom of expression … End of discussion. > > > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to > > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) > > > > Yes. There will always be limits, just like in real life. You can't tell > fire in a theater, and claim freedom of expression, for example. While that is an often cited example, it is rather tenuous as far as "freedom of expression" is concerned: yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theatre is by no measure an expression of one's views, thoughts, or opinions. At the same time, the invocation of a CoC ctte review is triggered by precisely the latter. -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 19 May 2019 at 17:27, Graham Perrin wrote: > I know, it's not appropriate to find fun in a serious discussion, but > these six words did make me chuckle: > > > … freedom of expression … End of discussion. > > No offence intended. I was speed-reading (waiting for a browser to > launch) and those six words leapt out at me :-) Context is everything: for example, repeatedly punching someone in the face is generally frowned upon, yet is lauded in boxing ;-) Best, -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sat, 18 May 2019 at 00:10, wrote: > > Igor et al, > > Instead of debating definitions of hate speech, free speech, and trying to > discover intent, I suggest we focus on right relationships. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A14THPoc4-4 This is a typical example of reframing a problem in one side's favourable terms. Freedom of expression is a fundamental freedom as recognised by the United Nations, and is guaranteed by the highest courts of any civilised society. Attacking one's freedom of expression under whatever auspices makes one an EXCEPTIONALLY terrible person that should go and re-thing their life purpose! End of discussion. -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Sun, 12 May 2019 at 18:28, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > On Friday, 10 May 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary > wrote: > > > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made > > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of > > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide > > what action to take. > > > > > -- > > FreeBSD Core Team > > This seems to be a wanton violation of Article 19 of the Universal > Declaration of Human Rights [1]. > > 1. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ More applicable if you think that UN declarations don't apply to you:- https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/16pdf/15-1293_1o13.pdf -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Core Team Response to Controversial Social Media Posts
On Friday, 10 May 2019, FreeBSD Core Team Secretary < core-secret...@freebsd.org> wrote: > The FreeBSD Core Team is aware of recent controversial statements made > on social media by a FreeBSD developer. We, along with the Code of > Conduct review committee, are investigating the matter and will decide > what action to take. > -- > FreeBSD Core Team This seems to be a wanton violation of Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [1]. 1. https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Danish FreeBSD Developer hates jews collectively
On Thu, 9 May 2019 at 19:07, wrote: > > Background: Apparently a FreeBSD developer, a viking looking fellow, > has been hiding a secret: just as many of his predecessors in the Danish > cities during WWII (collaborators); He has a disdain for "the jews" > collectively. Freedom of expression exists to protect the rights of others to express views one might find distasteful; for a likeable/favourable expression needs no protection---it's axiomatically welcome. When opposing views are oppressed through gross generalisation and appeal to emotion, it is a clear sign that those who oppose a particular unpalatable expression lack logical argument to oppose it. For that reason, while I might (or might not) disagree with any particular expression, I would defend their right to express their views without fear, and implore others to do same while pointing big fingers of shame at those who actively suppress or oppress fundamental human freedoms! -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Recognizing SMR HDDs
On 26 May 2016 at 14:41, Kenneth D. Merry wrote: > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 15:29:21 +0200, Gary Jennejohn wrote: > > On Thu, 26 May 2016 08:34:45 -0400 > > "Kenneth D. Merry" wrote: > > > > > On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 08:42:53 +0200, Gary Jennejohn wrote: > > > What kind of drive is it? > > > > > > > ST8000AS 0002-1NA17Z 0X03 > [snip] > Yes. There is something slightly odd about the Inquiry data you pasted > above. Seagate didn't set the bits in the ATA identify data to mark it as > a Drive Managed drive, so I put in a quirk entry to mark it as Drive > Managed. > > Unfortunately with Drive Managed drives that is really all you know. You > don't know the zone boundaries or states. But, it is useful to know that > you really should write sequentially for good performance. (True of any > drive, but especially true with SMR drives.) > The drive is supposed to have Word 69 set to 0x0001 and support ZAC MGMT IN/OUT - http://www.seagate.com/www-content/product-content/hdd-fam/seagate-archive-hdd/en-us/docs/100795782a.pdf at pg. 24 and 28. Incidentally AR17 firmware is a new batch, perhaps Seagate did what they did with -DL003 drives where the early models reported 512n sector size (so as not to confuse computers) and the later models properly reported 4kn sector size? -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Heads up
On 15 April 2016 at 17:22, Conrad Meyer wrote: If you implement a new IO scheduler you can name it whatever you like. > "NG" isn't any more meaningful than "Netflix." > True, but _NETFLIX as a suffix is bad for three reasons: 1st- it creates a precedent for every sponsoring co. to want their name in the kernel space. 2nd- I doubt any other company would want to sponsor improvement of _NETFLIX codebase, and at the same time after how many commits does the code become so remote from _NETFLIX code so as to have _NETFLIX become a meaningless piece of nostalgia? Finally, taking a leaf out of McConnell's Code Complete- variables need to have an unambiguous and meaningful name- what on earth does _NETFLIX mean: "to be only used at netflix", "to be used on netflix hardware", "to be used with netflix's permission", or something else- if you need to look it up, the variable is named wrongly! My 2c. Cheers, -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: May you please add alias for nslookup?
On 12 October 2013 18:57, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: > > > > On 12 October 2013 07:10, zhifeng hu wrote: > >> I am noticed that the nslookup will not appear by default in freebsd 10. >> but this is a very basic tools, we need it very much more than you think. >> would you please add alias for nslookup ? such as >> alias nslookup="host -v" >> >> NOT FORCE USER TO INSTALL dns/bind-tool >> >> It's not good for human use experiences. >> > > Hasn't nslookup been deprecated by ISC a long time ago?.. I remember a > long time ago when I installed ISC's bind &c that every time I ran nslookup > I got a massive notice stating that nslookup's been deprecated and I should > use dig instead > This is the message: Note: nslookup is deprecated and may be removed from future releases. Consider using the 'dig' or 'host' programs instead. Run nslookup with the '-sil[ent]' option to prevent this message from appearing. -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: May you please add alias for nslookup?
On 12 October 2013 07:10, zhifeng hu wrote: > I am noticed that the nslookup will not appear by default in freebsd 10. > but this is a very basic tools, we need it very much more than you think. > would you please add alias for nslookup ? such as > alias nslookup="host -v" > > NOT FORCE USER TO INSTALL dns/bind-tool > > It's not good for human use experiences. > Hasn't nslookup been deprecated by ISC a long time ago?.. I remember a long time ago when I installed ISC's bind &c that every time I ran nslookup I got a massive notice stating that nslookup's been deprecated and I should use dig instead -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs
On 10 October 2013 21:18, Jos Backus wrote: > > On Oct 10, 2013 1:07 PM, "Igor Mozolevsky" wrote: > > > [snip] > > You're missing the point- the requirement is "provide a way to keep > track of changes for file X" not "have many fancy and unnecessary > features"... > > That may have been the requirement at the time of the RCS import but the > world has changed in my view. Feel free to use the old tools though, nobody > is saying you can't. > > Anyway, why not change this for 11? Do we feel RCS is superior simply > because we are familiar with it? What about all the extra features modern > version control offers? Sounds like people think it's all a step backwards, > all we need is manage separate files. No need for changesets or any other > modern features. > RCS is a tool that does it's job. It's been in base since time immemoriam, and is more likely than not to be found in other flavours of Unix(TM). Moreover, RCS commands are integrated into a lot of scripts that sysadmins use (it'd be naive to think otherwise), so in terms of $$$ not having RCS in base (yup, I know the change's been reverted) has a real cost to business! I don't really understand the resistance. We're okay with importing > Subversion which has less functionally and more dependencies but a single > Fossil binary is too intrusive? > SVN is the necessary evil, the project uses it and until the project switches to something else we're "stuck with it". What's the case for Fossil?.. -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs
On 10 October 2013 20:36, Jos Backus wrote: > > On Oct 10, 2013 11:54 AM, "Igor Mozolevsky" wrote: > > > > On 10 October 2013 19:15, Jos Backus wrote: > >> > >> On Oct 10, 2013 9:38 AM, "Julian Elischer" wrote: > > > > > > [snip] > > > >> > >> > well since people expect RCS.. it is not a no brainer. > >> > you are asking people to learn a whole new tool for functionality > that > >> is currently very simple.. > >> > edit file > >> > ci -l file > >> > add comment. > >> > >> Such is the price of progress. I envy people who don't have to learn > >> anything new in order to stay employed :-) > > > > > > So your definition of progress is "doing more work to achieve the same > result"?.. > > That would only be true if they were equivalent, and we didn't care about > the extra features. You may not, but many people do, as the popularity of > git and other distributed version control systems proves. > You're missing the point- the requirement is "provide a way to keep track of changes for file X" not "have many fancy and unnecessary features"... -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs
On 10 October 2013 19:15, Jos Backus wrote: > On Oct 10, 2013 9:38 AM, "Julian Elischer" wrote: > [snip] > > well since people expect RCS.. it is not a no brainer. > > you are asking people to learn a whole new tool for functionality that > is currently very simple.. > > edit file > > ci -l file > > add comment. > > Such is the price of progress. I envy people who don't have to learn > anything new in order to stay employed :-) > So your definition of progress is "doing more work to achieve the same result"?.. -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: [Heads Up] RCS removed from base
On 8 October 2013 02:49, Julian Elischer wrote: > On 10/8/13 9:33 AM, Steve Kargl wrote: > [snip] > > Less GPL code in FreeBSD? >> > not a problem unless you plan in shipping a changed version of it on your > product?? ... and there's already a WITHOUT_RCS switch if the GPLed RCS is *really* a showstopper... -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs is gone?
On 8 October 2013 01:59, Glen Barber wrote: > On Mon, Oct 07, 2013 at 05:54:23PM -0700, John-Mark Gurney wrote: > [snip] > > Plus, I was quite reasured that svn isn't smart enough to realize that > > a path might be a file: url relative to the current working directory... > > I don't know what you mean by this. I think he means file://./file.conf -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs is gone?
On 8 October 2013 01:58, Ian Lepore wrote: > On Mon, 2013-10-07 at 16:49 -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: > > I've asked on IRC to figure out when this was first proposed. I'll see if > > it was announced anywhere or if Eitan snuck it in. > > > > > > -a > > It was mentioned briefly on stable@ > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2012-August/069252.html > > And discussed at greater length in the context of removing cvs on arch@ > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/012975.html > > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-arch/2012-September/013077.html > > I have not re-read those threads to see just how much of the discussion > involved rcs, I just spot-checked a few and confirmed my memory that it > showed up in some of the messages there. > Hold on a SECOND! Those messages had a subject line of "Removing CVS from base", if one is not affected by that why on earth would one think that that discussion might involve RCS??? Perhaps I am different, but I really do lack telepathic abilities... -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs is gone?
On 8 October 2013 01:00, Adrian Chadd wrote: [snip] Oh, I know it's an up-hill battle. But I honestly thought that this had > been communicated on a list somewhere. It seems.. not. I don't know why. > Gah. It's been communicated at Sun, 6 Oct 2013 22:43:21 -0400, but that doesn't meed there's been any discussion, let alone any consensus reached- it was communicated as an already made decision... -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs is gone?
On 7 October 2013 22:28, Lev Serebryakov wrote: svnlite? :) > Thanks Lev & Glen- it's something to explore albeit that screws up quite a lot of stuff on this end... Cheers, -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs is gone?
On 7 October 2013 22:15, Andreas Nilsson wrote: > Well, it has been announced, and is available as a port. > So there's no version control in the base at all now?.. When did FreeBSD decide to move away from distributing a usable OS? Why not just distribute a kernel and a few bits that are barely sufficient for the initial set up, and then make users fetch everything from ports? -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: rcs is gone?
On 7 October 2013 22:08, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > > On 2013-10-07, at 2:02 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > > > I use ci/co every single day to track changes to individual config files > on individual machines. For simple things like ntp.conf, rc.conf, > sysctl.conf, a simple 'ci -l xxx' is a trivial way to maintain local > revision control. > > And sorry, what I left out was how having ci/co in the base is immensely > helpful with the installer scripts I write. ... and probably screw up change control management for those who use rcs for that... -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: No working IDE in FreeBSD!
I don't know how well it would suit your purpose, but you could always try emacs-ide (at http://gna.org/projects/emacs-ide/ ) -- Igor M. :-) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server
On 22 December 2011 10:12, Daniel Kalchev wrote: > As for how fast to get from point A to point B. If you observe speed limits, > that will depend only on the pilot, no? :) > Both cars are sufficiently faster than the imposed speed limits. You are ignoring acceleration, handling, and other factors... Besides, you're missing the point: *given same conditions* a benchmark allows one to show how A performs compared to B, which is why I said it is important to keep everything else constant! At the end of the day, what users, sysadmins, &c want to know is given hardware configuration H and requirement R will software X outperform software Y or Z. The components and the bells and whistles of X, Y or Z are, quite often, irrelevant (unless one has some silly idealogical reason, for example). > On very specific hardware, such as systems with many CPUs and lots of > memory, you may see one better than the other -- this in most cases will be > relevant to tuning, but also to overall system architecture. Are you saying that careful tuning will give you _orders of magnitude_ performance increase? Got numbers to back that up? ;-) > You may make an very "scientific", well documented and repeatable benchmark, > such as this one: > > time dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/null > > .. then optimize your particular OS to run it at the highest possible > rate... and so what? Do you know what this benchmark measures? :) Yes, do you? I hope you are not being deliberately obtuse here... Besides, I would criticise your test in this example: have you tried running that with, say, bs=1g count=1000? Is there a difference how fast FreeBSD completes that vs how fast a Linux box does the same? The point of documenting a repeatable benchmark is to enable the person interpreting the results to see what was done (and verify) to achieve the result and treat that result accordingly. Cheers, -- Igor ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server
On 22 December 2011 05:54, Daniel Kalchev wrote: > > > On 22.12.11 00:33, Igor Mozolevsky wrote: >> >> Using the same argument one can say that Ferrari F430 vs Toyota Prius is a >> meaningless comparison because the under-the-hood equipment is different. > > Of course, it is meaningless, the Ferrari will lose big time in the fuel > consumption comparison! I believe it will also lose the price comparison as > well. Not to speak the availability comparison. That's an oxymoron, right? The comparison cannot be meaningless---the reality is F430 will indeed use up more fuel than Prius. If a benchmark demonstrates a true reality, how can that benchmark be possibly meaningless??? Same benchmark might be irrelevant to someone who wants to know how fast they can get from A to B, but irrelevant is not a synonym for meaningless! > You say that comparison is meaningless, yet you intend to compare those two > cars? I didn't say that at all, I was demonstrating fallacy of the argument that the comparisons were meaningless. > Any 'benchmark' has a goal. You first define the goal and then measure how > different contenders achieve it. Reaching the goal may have several > measurable metrics, that you will use to later declare the winner in each. > Besides, you need to define a baseline and be aware of what theoretical > max/min values are possible. Treating a benchmark as a binary win/lose is rather naive, it's not a competition, and (I hope) no serious person ever does that. A proper benchmark shows true strength and weaknesses so than a well-informed intelligent decision can be taken by an individual according to that individual's needs. The caveat, of course, is making your methodology clear and methods repeatable! Cheers, -- Igor M. ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server
On 21 December 2011 22:03, Freddie Cash wrote: > On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Johan Hendriks > wrote: >> Nice page, but one thing i do not get is the following. >> >> [quote] >> If you compare FreeBSD / GCC 4.2.1 against, for example, Ubuntu / GCC 4.7 >> then the results are unlikely to tell you anything meaningful about FreeBSD >> vs Ubuntu. >> [/quote] >> >> That is a little strange in my opinion. >> It tells me that FreeBSD falls more and more behind on Linux. >> The reason is or could be that FreeBSD cannot or will not include GCC 4.7 >> and that FreeBSD will not be on par with Linux anymore. > > When benchmarking two systems, you need to make sure that everything > possible is the same (constants) and that the only differences between > the two systems are what you want to benchmark (variables). Yes and no, but to be perfectly frank, the statement, as it stands, is a bit of a nonsense. Let me illustrate in a different way. This is macro~ vs micro~comparison of systems and depends on what you are trying to get out of the benchmark. Using the same argument one can say that Ferrari F430 vs Toyota Prius is a meaningless comparison because the under-the-hood equipment is different. Now, it is absolutely correct to say that in A vs B comparisons, only one thing should be changed and the rest should remain constant. The important thing is, however, to determine the scope of your benchmark: you are not benchmarking a component of A vs a component of B, but you are benchmarking A as a whole system and B as a whole system. Thus, the thing that changes is the system itself. Going back to F430 vs Prius, you first decide what you want to benchmark (acceleration, top speed, fuel consumption, ride comfort, &c) then you measure that aspect in each of the system---you are not looking at the wiring, engine, wheels, &c individually but *at a whole system*. You use the same route, time of day, driver, drive pattern, weather conditions, &c, the only thing that changes is the car! Similarly, FreeBSD vs Linux, you want to a) determine what metric you want to benchmark (NFS throughput, HTTP client handling, SMPT throughput, prime number computation) and b) *scientifically* measure the system against that metric... This would essentially amount to having identical set up and tests, and only changing the hard disks (one containing Linux and another one containing FreeBSD). I don't see why this is such a difficult concept to grasp. Cheers, -- Igor M. :-) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Benchmark (Phoronix): FreeBSD 9.0-RC2 vs. Oracle Linux 6.1 Server
Interestingly, while people seem to be (arguably rightly) focused on criticising Phoronix's benchmarking, nobody has offered an alternative benchmark; and while (again, arguably rightly) it is important to benchmark real world performance, equally, nobody has offered any numbers in relation to, for example, HTTP or SMTP, or any other "real world"-application torture tests done on the aforementioned two platforms... IMO, this just goes to show that "doing is hard" and "criticising is much easier" (yes, I am aware of the irony involved in making this statement, but someone has to!) Cheers, Igor M :-) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD 9.0-BETA3 Available...
On 4 October 2011 19:40, Andrey Fesenko wrote: > On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 5:42 AM, Ken Smith wrote: >> >> >> The 9.0-RELEASE cycle will be tracked here: >> >> http://wiki.freebsd.org/Releng/9.0TODO >> >> though the schedule listed there is still way off. We'll re-work the >> schedule some time soon. >> > > Last updated: 16 August 2011. :( http://www.freebsd.org/releases/9.0R/schedule.html is also out-of-date, which is kind of very bad, since as one gets to that page through the homepage (latest releases->release engineering->release schedule)... -- Igor :-) ___ freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
