Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, Ryan Thompson wrote: > The old 2-button 9-pin $5 serial Dexxa mice were really fun.. I used > to buy the OEMs in bulk. They were a comfy little mouse, but, shine > direct sunlight on them and the optical disc motion sensors wouldn't > work. The cheap, thin plastic casing allowed light to shine through > and confuse the eye. The 3 button Dexxas were nice too; all you had to do was get a real metal ball for them and they worked until the cord broke internally. Wish I could buy a few dozen for a dollar each. :/ -- | Matthew N. Dodd | '78 Datsun 280Z | '75 Volvo 164E | FreeBSD/NetBSD | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | 2 x '84 Volvo 245DL| ix86,sparc,pmax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | This Space For Rent | ISO8802.5 4ever | To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
"Jeffrey J. Mountin" wrote: > You could say I reserve the right shoot myself in foot by swapping keyboards. I think you've made it really clear with all of your many posts that you want this option. On the other hand, some of us think it's worthwhile to warn people that swapping keyboards and/or mice while the system is on could cause them problems. There is no reason that the two goals can't coexist, so why are you still posting? Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
At 05:43 AM 3/11/00 -0800, David O'Brien wrote: >On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:45:33PM -0600, Jeffrey J. Mountin wrote: > > > > Hopefully that "yet" will be "never" so one can boot sans keyboard and > > later hook one up if need be. > >For me it cannot come soon enough. *FINALLY* the PC toy will act like a >real Unix computer. This is the behavior of all Sun's, DEC Alpha, >DECstations, etc... Gads! Now it a matter of what's "real" or not. I'd prefer the behaviour to be configurable and *not* push what I expect it do on everyone or what other systems do. And yes I am familiar with their behaviour. You could say I reserve the right shoot myself in foot by swapping keyboards. Jeff Mountin - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems/Network Administrator FreeBSD - the power to serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
On Sat, 11 Mar 2000, in a never-ending search for enlightenment, Ryan Thompson wrote: > Jeffrey J. Mountin wrote to Ryan Thompson: > > > At 09:19 PM 3/10/00 -0600, Ryan Thompson wrote: > > >Me as well...For at least a decade. I used to do it manually all the > > >time, but had occasional glitches with funny scan codes and indicator > > >statuses. With a mid-range priced switch, though, I have had no problems > > >whatsoever. > > > > The only glitches I ever see are with a mouse. Tap me on the shoulder > > while my hand is on the mouse and it will seize. For my use at home there > > isn't a need for a switch. Could use one at times, but it's simple enough > > to swap around at need. > > The old 2-button 9-pin $5 serial Dexxa mice were really fun.. I used to > buy the OEMs in bulk. They were a comfy little mouse, but, shine direct > sunlight on them and the optical disc motion sensors wouldn't work. The > cheap, thin plastic casing allowed light to shine through and confuse the > eye. > > -- > Ryan Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Systems Administrator, Accounts > Phone: +1 (306) 664-1161 A sun-powered mouseneat! > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message -- Walter Brameld Microsoft: Where do you want to go today? Linux: Where do you want to go tomorrow? BSD: Are you guys coming, or what? Walter:Where the hell am I? To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
Jeffrey J. Mountin wrote to Ryan Thompson: > At 09:19 PM 3/10/00 -0600, Ryan Thompson wrote: > >Me as well...For at least a decade. I used to do it manually all the > >time, but had occasional glitches with funny scan codes and indicator > >statuses. With a mid-range priced switch, though, I have had no problems > >whatsoever. > > The only glitches I ever see are with a mouse. Tap me on the shoulder > while my hand is on the mouse and it will seize. For my use at home there > isn't a need for a switch. Could use one at times, but it's simple enough > to swap around at need. The old 2-button 9-pin $5 serial Dexxa mice were really fun.. I used to buy the OEMs in bulk. They were a comfy little mouse, but, shine direct sunlight on them and the optical disc motion sensors wouldn't work. The cheap, thin plastic casing allowed light to shine through and confuse the eye. -- Ryan Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Systems Administrator, Accounts Phone: +1 (306) 664-1161 SaskNow Technologies http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E Saskatoon, SK S7H 0W2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
Ryan Thompson wrote: > > I'm not sure, that's why I asked the list :-) Really, what I was asking > is if there is a better way to detect a serial console.. Rather than the > current logic of "If there is no keyboard, there must be a serial > console". I can think of N reasons why a box would have no keyboard > attached, besides having a serial console. You can force loader on this matter. Man loader(8) and loader.conf(5). -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] One Unix to rule them all, One Resolver to find them, One IP to bring them all and in the zone bind them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
On Fri, Mar 10, 2000 at 07:45:33PM -0600, Jeffrey J. Mountin wrote: > > Hopefully that "yet" will be "never" so one can boot sans keyboard and > later hook one up if need be. For me it cannot come soon enough. *FINALLY* the PC toy will act like a real Unix computer. This is the behavior of all Sun's, DEC Alpha, DECstations, etc... -- -- David([EMAIL PROTECTED]) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
At 09:19 PM 3/10/00 -0600, Ryan Thompson wrote: >Me as well...For at least a decade. I used to do it manually all the >time, but had occasional glitches with funny scan codes and indicator >statuses. With a mid-range priced switch, though, I have had no problems >whatsoever. The only glitches I ever see are with a mouse. Tap me on the shoulder while my hand is on the mouse and it will seize. For my use at home there isn't a need for a switch. Could use one at times, but it's simple enough to swap around at need. Warner mentions static. As someone that builds up a good charge, it is always prudent to ground before (dis)connecting anything that is on or off. > > If/when this does change, wishing there will be a way to override back to > > the current behaviour. IMO, serial console should be explicitly called > for. > >Amen. If I can't boot a system to the local console without a keyboard, >that system isn't very useful. > >If the default DOES change, you should be able to change your boot.config >to remove the -P option. There have been a few times where I needed a video card from one system in another and ended up with a truly "headless" system with no other system near. Log in, shutdown, power off, pop in card, do what I need to do, and off with it's head. Mind I was waiting for some basic cards and didn't care to use a Matrox for 25X80. My dispute is more for the scrap systems I tinker around with at home. If someone else is paying the bill 8-) Jeff Mountin - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems/Network Administrator FreeBSD - the power to serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> "Jeffrey J. Mountin" writes: : Can't safely? Why the hell not? The spec doesn't allow for it. And most mobo mfg don't properly ground things so that you won't accidentally introduce a large static zap into the system. : Been hot-swapping keyboards for many years without *any* problems. Old DIN : style and PS2, doesn't matter. Even Doze doesn't mind. Usually it doesn't matter. However, sometimes it does. I've done it myself up until recently. Recently, I just killed two mobo keyboard controllers for reasons unknown. Maybe it was hot plugging, maybe it was a bad keyboard, who knows. Strangest thing I've ever seen. Only thing that in common is that my wife was using both of the machines at the time. BTW, That's why the mechanical keyboard work most of the time. They don't have the static problem that normal plugging has... Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
Jeffrey J. Mountin wrote to Mike Smith: > At 05:54 PM 3/10/00 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > >Since you can't safely hot-plug the PC keyboard, that wouldn't be very > >smart. The only way to auto-detect the use of a serial console is to > >look for a keyboard; if one isn't plugged in, there's no local console, > >end of story. > > Can't safely? Why the hell not? > > Been hot-swapping keyboards for many years without *any* problems. Old DIN > style and PS2, doesn't matter. Even Doze doesn't mind. Me as well...For at least a decade. I used to do it manually all the time, but had occasional glitches with funny scan codes and indicator statuses. With a mid-range priced switch, though, I have had no problems whatsoever. > If/when this does change, wishing there will be a way to override back to > the current behaviour. IMO, serial console should be explicitly called for. Amen. If I can't boot a system to the local console without a keyboard, that system isn't very useful. If the default DOES change, you should be able to change your boot.config to remove the -P option. -- Ryan Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Systems Administrator, Accounts Phone: +1 (306) 664-1161 SaskNow Technologies http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E Saskatoon, SK S7H 0W2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
At 05:54 PM 3/10/00 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >Since you can't safely hot-plug the PC keyboard, that wouldn't be very >smart. The only way to auto-detect the use of a serial console is to >look for a keyboard; if one isn't plugged in, there's no local console, >end of story. Can't safely? Why the hell not? Been hot-swapping keyboards for many years without *any* problems. Old DIN style and PS2, doesn't matter. Even Doze doesn't mind. If/when this does change, wishing there will be a way to override back to the current behaviour. IMO, serial console should be explicitly called for. As for USB, mentioned elsewhere, still leery of it. Not to snub all the work that has been to support it, but it has done a return-of-the-living-dead act (mini-disc anyone?). Wonder if FireWire will do the same thing, which has been on my "wondering when" list for many years now. my .02 rant Jeff Mountin - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems/Network Administrator FreeBSD - the power to serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
>> It's indeed inconvenient that you cannot safely hot-plug the keyboard. >> And the world is heading for the USB standard... :-) > >This actually opens another entire can of worms; detecting a USB keyboard >at the bootstrap level is _not_ easy. It looks like at least some >systems aren't setting the 'extended keyboard' flag. 8( I wasn't talking about specific implementation which should be in FreeBSD. But, the general technological trend the world is following :-) Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
Mike Smith wrote to Ryan Thompson: > > "Don't have a keyboard" != "No keyboard detected" != "Serial Console". > > No keyboard detected -> local console won't be used -> use serial console Yes, that would seem to sum up the current behavior quite well. :-) > > Ok, so they can't be probed. However, I HAVE thought about it for a > > minute, and, to be honest, I still don't see why my proposal is entirely > > nonsensical. :-) Would you mind explaning your argument? For clarity, > > I'll explain mine again... Perhapas we're just not on the same wavelength: > > > > >From boot(8): > > > >-P probe the keyboard. If no keyboard is found, the -D and > > -h options are automatically set. > > > > Instead of that behaviour, I am suggesting a more forgiving behaviour: > > > > 1. Probe for a keyboard. > > 2. Is there a keyboard? > > Yes - Boot from the local console > > No - Display "Keyboard not found. Using serial console in 10 seconds, > > press any key to abort" > > This is as stupid as the "Keyboard error - Press F1 to continue" message > that several BIOS vendors are so fond of. If there's no keyboard > attached, you can't hit a key. Not very smart. :-) I just mentioned that in another (now closely related) thread. > > 3. Was a key pressed in 10 seconds? > > Yes - Boot from the local console > > No - Display "Booting from serial console" > >Boot from the serial console > > There's also not enough code space in the bootstrap for this frippery. > If you want to use a local keyboard, make sure it's plugged in. We don't > have a diagnostic for when you forget eg. to install your disk drive > either... That's a concern that I stated in my previous post. If it's not feasable, then it's not feasable. (And I can infer from your responses that you wouldn't be the one to commit such frippery to the codebase, anyway :-) It was but an idle query from someone mildly inconvenienced by -P. Thanks for the input. - Ryan -- Ryan Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Systems Administrator, Accounts Phone: +1 (306) 664-1161 SaskNow Technologies http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E Saskatoon, SK S7H 0W2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
> It's indeed inconvenient that you cannot safely hot-plug the keyboard. > And the world is heading for the USB standard... :-) This actually opens another entire can of worms; detecting a USB keyboard at the bootstrap level is _not_ easy. It looks like at least some systems aren't setting the 'extended keyboard' flag. 8( -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
>> >And, if not, could >> >the loader at least not display a message on the local monitor like >> >"Switching output to serial console...", or better yet, "Switching output >> >to serial console in 10 seconds.. press any key to abort"? >> >> Which key do you mean? The system has found no keyboard, you know :-) >> >> Kazu > >Exactly... My suggestion resembles the common BIOS boot message from days >of old: > > Keyboard not found. Press [F1] to continue. The PC BIOS prints "Press [F1] to continue" for ANY error detected during POST. I found it damm stupid. As I wrote in another posting, the keyboard interface on the PC motherboard is not designed for hot-plugging/unplugging. And I don't think the BIOS is expecting you to attach the keyboard without turning off the system in the above situation. You may say it works. But, I can say, with confidence, it is not generally the case with the average PC motherboard. I strongly object to the idea to put some logic or message to actively "encourage" users to hot-plug the keyboard. That will certainly lead to breakage of many motherboards. If the user hot-plug the keyboard, knowing involved risks, that's his problem; he is expected to know what he is doing and is prepared to accept the risks. It's indeed inconvenient that you cannot safely hot-plug the keyboard. And the world is heading for the USB standard... :-) Kazu >The novice reads, laughs out loud, and wonders if the joke is really on >them. After all, how COULD they press F1 if a keyboard does not exist? > >The expert checks his/her keyboard connection, (or plugs a keyboard in) >and, indeed, hits F1 to continue. BIOS programmers have been doing it >for about two decades. Why not the FreeBSD boot loader? :-) > >My idea is a similar one. Have the boot loader (with a reasonably >configured timeout--we don't want to wait indefinitely) display a similar >message (perhaps with copious beeping), giving the busy sysadmin a chance >to switch keyboards, or at least notice that a keyboard was not detected. > >If I install FreeBSD on multiple systems, I might throw boot disks in a >dozen machines so I don't have to wait for each one. I come around with >my $370 keyboard later to start the actual installs over NFS. I call it >'pipelining' :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
> > > > >Isn't there a better way to identify a serial console? > > > > > > > > I don't understand. What do you expect the boot loader to do? > > > > > > I'm not sure, that's why I asked the list :-) Really, what I was asking > > > is if there is a better way to detect a serial console.. Rather than the > > > current logic of "If there is no keyboard, there must be a serial > > > console". I can think of N reasons why a box would have no keyboard > > > attached, besides having a serial console. > > > > Actually, there aren't very many. If you don't have a keyboard, you need > > a console of some sort. If you don't have a console, you've made enough > > modifications to be undaunted by removing two bytes from /boot.config. > > "Don't have a keyboard" != "No keyboard detected" != "Serial Console". No keyboard detected -> local console won't be used -> use serial console > Ok, so they can't be probed. However, I HAVE thought about it for a > minute, and, to be honest, I still don't see why my proposal is entirely > nonsensical. :-) Would you mind explaning your argument? For clarity, > I'll explain mine again... Perhapas we're just not on the same wavelength: > > >From boot(8): > > -P probe the keyboard. If no keyboard is found, the -D and > -h options are automatically set. > > Instead of that behaviour, I am suggesting a more forgiving behaviour: > > 1. Probe for a keyboard. > 2. Is there a keyboard? > Yes - Boot from the local console > No - Display "Keyboard not found. Using serial console in 10 seconds, > press any key to abort" This is as stupid as the "Keyboard error - Press F1 to continue" message that several BIOS vendors are so fond of. If there's no keyboard attached, you can't hit a key. Not very smart. > 3. Was a key pressed in 10 seconds? > Yes - Boot from the local console > No - Display "Booting from serial console" >Boot from the serial console There's also not enough code space in the bootstrap for this frippery. If you want to use a local keyboard, make sure it's plugged in. We don't have a diagnostic for when you forget eg. to install your disk drive either... -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
> At 05:06 PM 3/10/00 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > >Note also that the probe-for-keyboard feature is only used on the > >installation media; it's not the default for system behaviour (yet). > > Hopefully that "yet" will be "never" so one can boot sans keyboard and > later hook one up if need be. Since you can't safely hot-plug the PC keyboard, that wouldn't be very smart. The only way to auto-detect the use of a serial console is to look for a keyboard; if one isn't plugged in, there's no local console, end of story. -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
At 05:06 PM 3/10/00 -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >Note also that the probe-for-keyboard feature is only used on the >installation media; it's not the default for system behaviour (yet). Hopefully that "yet" will be "never" so one can boot sans keyboard and later hook one up if need be. Jeff Mountin - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems/Network Administrator FreeBSD - the power to serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
Mike Smith wrote to Ryan Thompson: > > > >Isn't there a better way to identify a serial console? > > > > > > I don't understand. What do you expect the boot loader to do? > > > > I'm not sure, that's why I asked the list :-) Really, what I was asking > > is if there is a better way to detect a serial console.. Rather than the > > current logic of "If there is no keyboard, there must be a serial > > console". I can think of N reasons why a box would have no keyboard > > attached, besides having a serial console. > > Actually, there aren't very many. If you don't have a keyboard, you need > a console of some sort. If you don't have a console, you've made enough > modifications to be undaunted by removing two bytes from /boot.config. "Don't have a keyboard" != "No keyboard detected" != "Serial Console". I understand the reasoning and rationale behind the logic used, and I agree with it, to a point. Read below. I have indeed disabled the keyboard probe in /boot.config when doing many installs to avoid the problem that I mentioned... But I always yearned for something a little less awkward, when I can otherwise still use install disks from the distribution images. > > I know very little about serial consoles, but can they not be probed > > somehow to determine their existence? If that's not possible, at least, > > what I'm suggesting below still sounds reasonable. > > No, they can't be probed, and no, if you think about it for a minute, > what you're proposing is entirely nonsensical. Ok, so they can't be probed. However, I HAVE thought about it for a minute, and, to be honest, I still don't see why my proposal is entirely nonsensical. :-) Would you mind explaning your argument? For clarity, I'll explain mine again... Perhapas we're just not on the same wavelength: >From boot(8): -P probe the keyboard. If no keyboard is found, the -D and -h options are automatically set. Instead of that behaviour, I am suggesting a more forgiving behaviour: 1. Probe for a keyboard. 2. Is there a keyboard? Yes - Boot from the local console No - Display "Keyboard not found. Using serial console in 10 seconds, press any key to abort" 3. Was a key pressed in 10 seconds? Yes - Boot from the local console No - Display "Booting from serial console" Boot from the serial console Nothing is lost, besides an extra 10 seconds at bootup, and a smidgen of the code segment. If no keyboard is detected, and there is indeed a serial console, it will still be used automatically. If, however, there was a temporary probing problem (i.e., the keyboard was not yet plugged in), the installer can smack a key and continue on. I'm open to the idea that I'm being nonsensical (I'll usually be the first one to admit it), but, in this case, I just don't see your reasoning, Mike. Please clarify. -- Ryan Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Systems Administrator, Accounts Phone: +1 (306) 664-1161 SaskNow Technologies http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E Saskatoon, SK S7H 0W2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
> > >Isn't there a better way to identify a serial console? > > > > I don't understand. What do you expect the boot loader to do? > > I'm not sure, that's why I asked the list :-) Really, what I was asking > is if there is a better way to detect a serial console.. Rather than the > current logic of "If there is no keyboard, there must be a serial > console". I can think of N reasons why a box would have no keyboard > attached, besides having a serial console. Actually, there aren't very many. If you don't have a keyboard, you need a console of some sort. If you don't have a console, you've made enough modifications to be undaunted by removing two bytes from /boot.config. > I know very little about serial consoles, but can they not be probed > somehow to determine their existence? If that's not possible, at least, > what I'm suggesting below still sounds reasonable. No, they can't be probed, and no, if you think about it for a minute, what you're proposing is entirely nonsensical. Note also that the probe-for-keyboard feature is only used on the installation media; it's not the default for system behaviour (yet). -- \\ Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. \\ Mike Smith \\ Tell him he should learn how to fish himself, \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] \\ and he'll hate you for a lifetime. \\ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
Kazutaka YOKOTA wrote to Ryan Thompson: > >Maybe there is a valid reason for this, but when I attempt to boot the 4.0 > >kern.flp without a keyboard attached (I share one keyboard between four > >systems, here), it displays keyboard: no and the BTX loader message, and > >ceases to display ANY output on the attached monitor (though it does > >continue to access the disk, I'm assuming, until the MFS root floppy is > >needed)? > > > >I assume this is because, without a keyboard, the loader assumes a serial > >console is attached. > > Yes. And this has been the behavior since FreeBSD 2.X. I thought as much. > >This is not the case in my situation. > > > >Isn't there a better way to identify a serial console? > > I don't understand. What do you expect the boot loader to do? I'm not sure, that's why I asked the list :-) Really, what I was asking is if there is a better way to detect a serial console.. Rather than the current logic of "If there is no keyboard, there must be a serial console". I can think of N reasons why a box would have no keyboard attached, besides having a serial console. I know very little about serial consoles, but can they not be probed somehow to determine their existence? If that's not possible, at least, what I'm suggesting below still sounds reasonable. > >And, if not, could > >the loader at least not display a message on the local monitor like > >"Switching output to serial console...", or better yet, "Switching output > >to serial console in 10 seconds.. press any key to abort"? > > Which key do you mean? The system has found no keyboard, you know :-) > > Kazu Exactly... My suggestion resembles the common BIOS boot message from days of old: Keyboard not found. Press [F1] to continue. The novice reads, laughs out loud, and wonders if the joke is really on them. After all, how COULD they press F1 if a keyboard does not exist? The expert checks his/her keyboard connection, (or plugs a keyboard in) and, indeed, hits F1 to continue. BIOS programmers have been doing it for about two decades. Why not the FreeBSD boot loader? :-) My idea is a similar one. Have the boot loader (with a reasonably configured timeout--we don't want to wait indefinitely) display a similar message (perhaps with copious beeping), giving the busy sysadmin a chance to switch keyboards, or at least notice that a keyboard was not detected. If I install FreeBSD on multiple systems, I might throw boot disks in a dozen machines so I don't have to wait for each one. I come around with my $370 keyboard later to start the actual installs over NFS. I call it 'pipelining' :-) -- Ryan Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Systems Administrator, Accounts Phone: +1 (306) 664-1161 SaskNow Technologies http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E Saskatoon, SK S7H 0W2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: 4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
>Maybe there is a valid reason for this, but when I attempt to boot the 4.0 >kern.flp without a keyboard attached (I share one keyboard between four >systems, here), it displays keyboard: no and the BTX loader message, and >ceases to display ANY output on the attached monitor (though it does >continue to access the disk, I'm assuming, until the MFS root floppy is >needed)? > >I assume this is because, without a keyboard, the loader assumes a serial >console is attached. Yes. And this has been the behavior since FreeBSD 2.X. >This is not the case in my situation. > >Isn't there a better way to identify a serial console? I don't understand. What do you expect the boot loader to do? >And, if not, could >the loader at least not display a message on the local monitor like >"Switching output to serial console...", or better yet, "Switching output >to serial console in 10 seconds.. press any key to abort"? Which key do you mean? The system has found no keyboard, you know :-) Kazu To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
4.0-20000307-CURRENT kern.flp keyboard probe questions
Hi all... Maybe there is a valid reason for this, but when I attempt to boot the 4.0 kern.flp without a keyboard attached (I share one keyboard between four systems, here), it displays keyboard: no and the BTX loader message, and ceases to display ANY output on the attached monitor (though it does continue to access the disk, I'm assuming, until the MFS root floppy is needed)? I assume this is because, without a keyboard, the loader assumes a serial console is attached. This is not the case in my situation. Isn't there a better way to identify a serial console? And, if not, could the loader at least not display a message on the local monitor like "Switching output to serial console...", or better yet, "Switching output to serial console in 10 seconds.. press any key to abort"? IMO, something like the above might avoid some confusion in the future. -- Ryan Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Systems Administrator, Accounts Phone: +1 (306) 664-1161 SaskNow Technologies http://www.sasknow.com #106-380 3120 8th St E Saskatoon, SK S7H 0W2 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
