Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 06:43:47 +0100
"Meixner, Johannes"  wrote:

> You must have never been to Southern Germany or Austria.

and Alaska.

Erich
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 01:08:41 +
Kate Dawson  wrote:

> Actually you sound like you come from under a bridge.  You know...
> "Trolling" 

it just shows your low education level. You could have checked
maps.google.com.

But you did not.

Erich
> 
> xxx
> 
> On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 07:21:44AM +0800, Erich Dollansky wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > just one word. I am from Kissing. My neighbours are from Fucking. I
> > bet, the 'CoC' people will discriminate me and my neighbours now.
> > 
> > Erich
> > ___
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> 

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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

just one word. I am from Kissing. My neighbours are from Fucking. I
bet, the 'CoC' people will discriminate me and my neighbours now.

Erich
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Bryan Drewery]

On 3/4/2018 10:40 PM, Franco Fichtner wrote:
> Hi there,
> 
>> On 4. Mar 2018, at 10:02 PM, Jeff Roberson  wrote:
>>
>> First of all this is really not an appropriate forum for this discussion.
> Nobody discusses it elsewhere.  "Decisions" are made between closed doors.
> How anyone would think this doesn't blow up later is at least unreasonable.
> 

I said this in a reply not CC'd to freebsd-current@, but Jeff is right
about "this" not being an appropriate forum for discussion.
freebsd-current@ is a strictly technical list. I will only ask that
further replies not CC freebsd-current@ and stick to freebsd-advocacy@
only where it seems like a more appropriate place for this sort of
discussion.

-- 
Regards,
Bryan Drewery



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Sulev-Madis Silber]

I knew this would be end result of that coc(k) being whipped out.

Also, I'm sure that it's not feminism you hate, it's that some idiots hide
under that blanket and imagine they can't be attacked anymore.

Why did that need for a new set of weird rules come out anyway? Right now
it feels like successful trolling.
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Franco Fichtner]

Hi there,

> On 4. Mar 2018, at 10:02 PM, Jeff Roberson  wrote:
> 
> First of all this is really not an appropriate forum for this discussion.

Nobody discusses it elsewhere.  "Decisions" are made between closed doors.
How anyone would think this doesn't blow up later is at least unreasonable.

> There is a lot of catastrophizing going on in the dialog, especially that on 
> third party sites and among non-committers.

This is where the project friction is at.  In a perfect world you don't
need users, external contributors and fresh ideas to keep a project moving
forward, but we are not in a perfect world.

I personally find it silly to keep begging for 6 years for someone to commit
something.  It has gotten to a point where I'd rather not bother to contribute
because working around issues is less time-consuming.

In community management terms, that's a major flaw.

> I would urge everyone to be calm and patient.  This is an important dialog 
> and it's bound to be bumpy.  I also strongly urge people to refrain from 
> discussing it further on technical lists where it is counter productive and 
> unwelcome.

So you are saying "shut up" and be patient like we've never been patient in
the last couple of years?  That's bold, but unfortunately also consistent MO.


Cheers,
Franco
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Jeff Roberson]

Hi John,

First of all this is really not an appropriate forum for this discussion. 
It is really unfortunate that these emails were leaked.  However, I think 
if you take a careful look at them, you will find a couple examples of 
hostility but the great preponderance of them are quite reasonable 
discussion.  People are sharing experiences, discussing how cultures other 
than western ones may be affected, what abuses have taken place, and what 
our aspirations for the project are.  This mostly looks like healthy 
debate to me, understanding that the subject matter may create strong 
feelings all around.


There is a lot of catastrophizing going on in the dialog, especially that 
on third party sites and among non-committers.  I believe in the strength 
of the project and its members to avoid these worst case scenarios.  I 
believe the vast majority of contributors are incredibly reasonable and 
desire a project where they can share their good work and be respected and 
respect others.  It is unfortunate that a few have left but that seems 
quite rash to me at this stage.


I would urge everyone to be calm and patient.  This is an important dialog 
and it's bound to be bumpy.  I also strongly urge people to refrain from 
discussing it further on technical lists where it is counter productive 
and unwelcome.


Regards,
Jeff


On Sat, 3 Mar 2018, John Darrah wrote:


FreeBSD recently introduced an updated Code of Conduct that developers and
members must adhere to. There has been much backlash online about it and
about introducing identity politics into a technical OS project in general.
The Code of Conduct was adopted from the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version,
which claims (among other things) that racism against whites doesn't exist,
sexism against men doesn't exist, and that certain protected classes of
people should not be criticised.

Emails of the internal discussion about this controversial Code of Conduct
have now been leaked publicly, painting a picture of the disagreement in
the FreeBSD project about how this was handled.

A number of developers, particularly benno@, phk@ and des@, have used racist
and sexist remarks against those criticising the far-reaching project policy
change, saying that the concerns about the policy essentially boil down to
"white male privilege" and being "on the wrong side of history".

Other developers expressed concern about the policy being thrown upon them
with no discussion or debate, as well as The FreeBSD Foundation's choice
to pay an outside person (with donations from the users) to work on the
Code of Conduct's enforcement. Said person identifies as a feminist.

Mods on BSD and FreeBSD-related subreddits are censoring posts, removing
threads, and banning users for posting the link. Colin Percival is among
the mods doing the removal. FreeBSD forum mods are also cracking down and
eliminating any discussion. Censorship is not the way to win culture wars.

This file is an email archive in MBOX format. You can open it with any
email client (including the mail or mutt commands) or view it as plaintext
with any text editor. It contains just over 200 emails.

View:
https://privatebin.net/?4c0fb59e63e8271e#irS3KFaEdtuFxsVM4xzQ4/llXLhSz0oZLV9WuOEUHBc=

Download:
https://mega.nz/#!xBpHBSAb!ENyoYPopqGVlx320X-a4ecpRjJBtPvd9jmRT9h57eao
https://my.mixtape.moe/nhybsi.mbox

I encourage you to read and form your own opinions, especially with regard
to how the project is handling donation money.
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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Rozhuk Ivan]

On Sat, 03 Mar 2018 17:30:14 -0500
John Darrah  wrote:

> FreeBSD recently introduced an updated Code of Conduct that
> developers and members must adhere to. There has been much backlash
> online about it and about introducing identity politics into a
> technical OS project in general. The Code of Conduct was adopted from
> the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version, which claims (among other things)
> that racism against whites doesn't exist, sexism against men doesn't
> exist, and that certain protected classes of people should not be
> criticised.
> 

+1
All people on the Internet are equal, there is nothing to discuss.
Any rules/CoC asserting the opposite are absurd.


The more you learn about the relationships and decisions in FreeBSD, the more 
doubts it is to continue to deal with this.

- Take the commit bit from an Iranian developer. (for me it's rumors, I can be 
wrong)

- History with John Marino a year ago:
https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2017-February/107225.html

- Now this strange code of conduct, when quite neutral could be taken: 
https://www.kde.org/code-of-conduct/
and do not spend money.


As for me personally, I do not understand where the logic is in many technical 
solutions, from those that I see.
Perhaps these are differences of mentality and language.

1. The system does not still have the O_EVTONLY and O_NOATIME flags for open ().
CoreTeam believes that FreeBSD should only work on servers?

2. 3+ years in the glib broken GFileMonitor and it was completely off then the 
applications crashed and eerily braked.
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=199872
While 1+ year there were two solutions to the problem:
a. go to libinotify and do not use the clumsy kqueue () code from glib
b. use my alternative kqueue () code: 
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=214338

As a result, wait clumsy patches of glib with which everything is still slow.
I got the feeling that no one here at all does not care about FreeBSD users on 
workstations.

3. For 4 years there is still no support for modern LTE / 4g modems.
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=192345
I rolled up the patch, checked it, then I also made a couple of significant, I 
think, improvements in logic, as a result, my first version of the patch, 
slightly modified in the design, is added to the system.

4. I do not understand why I had to add an extra driver to the system
"amdsmn - Family 17h System Management Network" which is only needed in amdtemp.
https://reviews.freebsd.org/D12217

5. Constant begging in the mailing list to pay attention to the patches in the 
bugzilla and added to the ports / system.
Otherwise, patches in bugzilla hang for months and years
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=223758

6. Imposing the use of poudriere port committers.

7. TCP stack which at considerable RTT and losses gives in times less speed 
than in Linux.
The minimum set of CC algorithms in the base.


In my experience CoreTeam (or whatever it is) is engaged in politics and code 
writing, and takes little care of both project and community management.
I see how people who do much go away, nobody takes their place, nobody does 
their work. This is bad for the project and for users.
Everything described above quite strongly demotivates me personally from any 
activity in the project.

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Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Ryan Root]

If politics is when a community had standards it operated by but it showed 
favoritism not disciplining it's members it thought were more important and 
allowed them to harass others until they either left or could be accused of 
breaking not it's rules at time of conflict but this new one they have much 
more than a political problem. They have a legal problem.  They don't own the 
rights to it's code anymore.
Ryan Root


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
 Original message From: Conrad Meyer <c...@freebsd.org> Date: 
3/3/18  3:25 PM  (GMT-08:00) To: John Darrah <timmcgraw...@protonmail.com> Cc: 
freebsd-advoc...@freebsd.org, freebsd-current@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD 
has a politics problem 
John,

A good portion of your original email happens to be inaccurate or
misleading.  In the spirit of good faith discussion, I'm going to
assume you're just accidentally misinformed, and not willfully
misrepresenting things.  So, some corrections and clarifications
follow.

If you have further questions about the code of conduct, I suggest
reaching out to the drafting committee or core directly.  They're nice
people, they don't bite, and they're happy to help clarify intent and
nuance.

Thanks.

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 2:30 PM, John Darrah <timmcgraw...@protonmail.com> wrote:
> FreeBSD recently introduced an updated Code of Conduct that developers and
> members must adhere to. There has been much backlash online about it and
> about introducing identity politics into a technical OS project in general.
> The Code of Conduct was adopted

In part, with editorial review and modification by a committee of
conscientious project members.

> from the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version,
> which claims (among other things) that racism against whites doesn't exist,

This claim is factually erroneous.  The Geek Feminism example
anti-harassment policy simply makes no such claim.

(Furthermore, criticizing the Geek Feminism document is wholly
off-topic for FreeBSD.  Our code of conduct is not identical to GF's
example policy.  The only conduct document relevant to FreeBSD is the
one at https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html .)

> sexism against men doesn't exist,

This claim is also objectively absent from the plain language of
either document.

> and that certain protected classes of
> people should not be criticised.

Again, this hysterical claim comes from blue sky.

> A number of developers, particularly benno@, phk@ and des@, have used racist
> and sexist remarks

Again, this is a claim made without any evidence.  I've briefly
re-skimmed the developers discussion on this topic and don't see any
examples.  (And, this accusation is so far outside of Benno's demeanor
as to be completely laughable.)  phk@ and des@ have used less
conciliatory language but I still do not see any sexist or racist
remarks.

> against those criticising the far-reaching project policy
> change, saying that the concerns about the policy essentially boil down to
> "white male privilege" and being "on the wrong side of history".

They're entitled to their opinions, as you are.  Note that neither
des@ nor phk@ sit on or represent the Core team.

> Other developers expressed concern about the policy being thrown upon them
> with no discussion or debate, as well as The FreeBSD Foundation's choice
> to pay an outside person (with donations from the users) to work on the
> Code of Conduct's enforcement.

The Foundation chooses how to spend donation dollars at its sole
discretion.  That's the deal with 501(c)(3) charities.  If you want to
pick and choose how your donated dollars are spent, Linux Foundation
is a 501(c)(6).

> Said person identifies as a feminist.

We don't object to contribution from people who identify as
Republican, Catholic, or Pastafarian.  Why do you think someone who
identifies as a feminist is incapable of doing a good job advising the
drafting committee?

> Mods on BSD and FreeBSD-related subreddits are censoring posts, removing
> threads, and banning users for posting the link.

This is a misleading oversimplification.  FreeBSD-the-project doesn't
control or have any moderation privileges on BSD-topic subreddits.
The only active moderator on one of the subreddits (freebsd) isn't
even a developer, just some random reddit user who happened to
register long ago.  Colin Percival happens to have moderation
privileges on the other subreddit (BSD), but again, is acting on his
personal volition.  He does not sit on nor represent the Core team.

Most discussions on the code of conduct in both locations have been
left in place, despite fairly low quality discussion.  (The usual
name-calling, spreading of outright FUD, othering, etc etc.)

The few posts that have been removed were outright, low-effort
trolling.  Not any kind of nuanced criticism of the actual code of
conduct.

Note that lin

Re: FreeBSD has a politics problem

[Conrad Meyer]

John,

A good portion of your original email happens to be inaccurate or
misleading.  In the spirit of good faith discussion, I'm going to
assume you're just accidentally misinformed, and not willfully
misrepresenting things.  So, some corrections and clarifications
follow.

If you have further questions about the code of conduct, I suggest
reaching out to the drafting committee or core directly.  They're nice
people, they don't bite, and they're happy to help clarify intent and
nuance.

Thanks.

On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 2:30 PM, John Darrah  wrote:
> FreeBSD recently introduced an updated Code of Conduct that developers and
> members must adhere to. There has been much backlash online about it and
> about introducing identity politics into a technical OS project in general.
> The Code of Conduct was adopted

In part, with editorial review and modification by a committee of
conscientious project members.

> from the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version,
> which claims (among other things) that racism against whites doesn't exist,

This claim is factually erroneous.  The Geek Feminism example
anti-harassment policy simply makes no such claim.

(Furthermore, criticizing the Geek Feminism document is wholly
off-topic for FreeBSD.  Our code of conduct is not identical to GF's
example policy.  The only conduct document relevant to FreeBSD is the
one at https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html .)

> sexism against men doesn't exist,

This claim is also objectively absent from the plain language of
either document.

> and that certain protected classes of
> people should not be criticised.

Again, this hysterical claim comes from blue sky.

> A number of developers, particularly benno@, phk@ and des@, have used racist
> and sexist remarks

Again, this is a claim made without any evidence.  I've briefly
re-skimmed the developers discussion on this topic and don't see any
examples.  (And, this accusation is so far outside of Benno's demeanor
as to be completely laughable.)  phk@ and des@ have used less
conciliatory language but I still do not see any sexist or racist
remarks.

> against those criticising the far-reaching project policy
> change, saying that the concerns about the policy essentially boil down to
> "white male privilege" and being "on the wrong side of history".

They're entitled to their opinions, as you are.  Note that neither
des@ nor phk@ sit on or represent the Core team.

> Other developers expressed concern about the policy being thrown upon them
> with no discussion or debate, as well as The FreeBSD Foundation's choice
> to pay an outside person (with donations from the users) to work on the
> Code of Conduct's enforcement.

The Foundation chooses how to spend donation dollars at its sole
discretion.  That's the deal with 501(c)(3) charities.  If you want to
pick and choose how your donated dollars are spent, Linux Foundation
is a 501(c)(6).

> Said person identifies as a feminist.

We don't object to contribution from people who identify as
Republican, Catholic, or Pastafarian.  Why do you think someone who
identifies as a feminist is incapable of doing a good job advising the
drafting committee?

> Mods on BSD and FreeBSD-related subreddits are censoring posts, removing
> threads, and banning users for posting the link.

This is a misleading oversimplification.  FreeBSD-the-project doesn't
control or have any moderation privileges on BSD-topic subreddits.
The only active moderator on one of the subreddits (freebsd) isn't
even a developer, just some random reddit user who happened to
register long ago.  Colin Percival happens to have moderation
privileges on the other subreddit (BSD), but again, is acting on his
personal volition.  He does not sit on nor represent the Core team.

Most discussions on the code of conduct in both locations have been
left in place, despite fairly low quality discussion.  (The usual
name-calling, spreading of outright FUD, othering, etc etc.)

The few posts that have been removed were outright, low-effort
trolling.  Not any kind of nuanced criticism of the actual code of
conduct.

Note that links to discussion on the BSD subreddits have been shared
in high drama, non-technical subreddits like r/Drama,
r/KotakuInAction, and r/SJWHate, likely leading to an influx of users
from those other spaces.

> Colin Percival is among the mods doing the removal.

Colin can speak to what has been moderated.  Removed subjects and
comments are still easily discovered on reddit archive sites, e.g.,
https://ceddit.com/r/BSD .  You can judge whether anything of value
was lost.  (I think not, but that's just my opinion.)

Clearly, discussion has not been eliminated.  There's tons of active
"discussion" going on.  I don't think it's particularly valuable
discourse because the same misrepresentations and outright falsehoods
are repeated over and over again, but it certainly hasn't been
scrubbed clean by moderators (who are mostly not under control of 

FreeBSD has a politics problem

[John Darrah]

FreeBSD recently introduced an updated Code of Conduct that developers and
members must adhere to. There has been much backlash online about it and
about introducing identity politics into a technical OS project in general.
The Code of Conduct was adopted from the "Geek Feminism" wiki's version,
which claims (among other things) that racism against whites doesn't exist,
sexism against men doesn't exist, and that certain protected classes of
people should not be criticised.

Emails of the internal discussion about this controversial Code of Conduct
have now been leaked publicly, painting a picture of the disagreement in
the FreeBSD project about how this was handled.

A number of developers, particularly benno@, phk@ and des@, have used racist
and sexist remarks against those criticising the far-reaching project policy
change, saying that the concerns about the policy essentially boil down to
"white male privilege" and being "on the wrong side of history".

Other developers expressed concern about the policy being thrown upon them
with no discussion or debate, as well as The FreeBSD Foundation's choice
to pay an outside person (with donations from the users) to work on the
Code of Conduct's enforcement. Said person identifies as a feminist.

Mods on BSD and FreeBSD-related subreddits are censoring posts, removing
threads, and banning users for posting the link. Colin Percival is among
the mods doing the removal. FreeBSD forum mods are also cracking down and
eliminating any discussion. Censorship is not the way to win culture wars.

This file is an email archive in MBOX format. You can open it with any
email client (including the mail or mutt commands) or view it as plaintext
with any text editor. It contains just over 200 emails.

View:
https://privatebin.net/?4c0fb59e63e8271e#irS3KFaEdtuFxsVM4xzQ4/llXLhSz0oZLV9WuOEUHBc=

Download:
https://mega.nz/#!xBpHBSAb!ENyoYPopqGVlx320X-a4ecpRjJBtPvd9jmRT9h57eao
https://my.mixtape.moe/nhybsi.mbox

I encourage you to read and form your own opinions, especially with regard
to how the project is handling donation money.
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