Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Ben Rosengart wrote: vi -- which is in /usr. Good example of something else that would be great to have in /bin. *ducking* -- Ben Rosengart and as a coworker, I'd have to tell you how to use cat ;) ROTFL. -Pat __ Pat Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Systems Administrator Rush Networking To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )
David Scheidt wrote: What's wrong with run with system V runlevels? Other than it's system V and everything AT^HUSL did is evil, of course. They try to map graphs into a line. -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) who is as social as a wampas [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )
"Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: Yea... been hearing that for 4 years... one of it's big short comings is that it needs a persistent backing store for this. Sounds like this C program could fullfill one of the missing parts of devfs :-) F persistent backing store. The daemon solution is perfectly fine. -- Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS) who is as social as a wampas [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )
On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dav id Scheidt writes: What's wrong with run with system V runlevels? Other than it's system V and everything AT^HUSL did is evil, of course. runlevels are a very oldfashioned way to think about things, I don't want to have one big button which is called "NETWORKING ON/OFF". runlevels let you do more than just run gettys, control networking, and run /sbin/rc?.d scripts. We do. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )
David Scheidt wrote: What's wrong with run with system V runlevels? Other than it's system V and everything AT^HUSL did is evil, of course. Well, the one danger is that we'd be slowly drifting away from the classic BSD way of doing thigs. Of course, the official BSD is dead (right?). But OTOH, we want to carry FreeBSD forward, so if that means we have to incorporate some SysVisms, then so be it. After all, SysV borrowed some things from BSD. The second question I have is, do we try to stay on par with what Open/NetBSD are doing? Should we stick together, synchronise our efforts, and try to define what comprises "BSD"? Or, do we let the 3 BSDs diverge completely? Well, if the 3 diverge too far (ex: FreeBSD implements SysV runlevels, OpenBSD does not or goes with an entirely different system), them would it be fair to consider FreeBSD "BSD"? The advantage here is that FreeBSD would mature into it's own type of UNIX with a BSD heritage. - Donn To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )
On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:22:46AM -0500, Donn Miller wrote: runlevels, OpenBSD does not or goes with an entirely different system), them would it be fair to consider FreeBSD "BSD"? The advantage here is that FreeBSD would mature into it's own type of UNIX with a BSD heritage. Can we please not have this thread again? Anyone who is interested in following up on anything whatsoever to do with SysV runlevels should first familiarize themselves with the numerous problems they have which have been hashed out on the lists several times over the last 12 months (hint: to to the mail archive search engine at www.freebsd.org and search for "runlevel"). - mark -- Mark Newton Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (W) Network Engineer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (H) Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82232999 "Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: So how about /usr/sbin/chown - /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with just the root file system mounted? How about removing awk from MAKEDEV so life isn't so hard to recover when you use a 3.3 fixit floppy after removing /dev and not making enough of it again. -- /===\ | Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | \===/ "If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved quantities, then it may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum of some larger space in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time." E. P. Tryon from "Nature" Vol.246 Dec.14, 1973 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote: On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: So how about /usr/sbin/chown - /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with just the root file system mounted? As one who just got his ass bitten by this, I would vote yes. As one who's missed chown at times when only root's mounted, I'm with Bill. -- Ben Rosengart UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group StarMedia Network, Inc. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
: : So how about /usr/sbin/chown - /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with : just the root file system mounted? : : As one who just got his ass bitten by this, I would vote yes. : :As one who's missed chown at times when only root's mounted, I'm with Bill. : :-- : Ben Rosengart : :UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group :StarMedia Network, Inc. I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in /usr that wasn't in /. For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without vi -- which is in /usr. But if we go down that path we are going to wind up with *every* binary in /usr being moved to /, which is clearly wrong. Moving a well known, long-existing system binary is not something that should be undertaken lightly. I will remind everyone that when sendmail was moved from /usr/libexec to /usr/sbin, it created ramifications that didn't clear up for a year. Sendmail's move could be justified, but I don't think chown's move can be -- certainly not on the basis of something as flimsy as MAKEDEV needing it! -Matt Matthew Dillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew Dillon writes: I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in /usr that wasn't in /. For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without vi -- which is in /usr. EDITOR=/bin/ed export EDITOR disklabel -e But if we go down that path we are going to wind up with *every* binary in /usr being moved to /, which is clearly wrong. Dogmatically, yes. Sensibly: I'm not so sure. It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for /usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint. /var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification. It is getting even less justifiable as time progress. The last sensible argument we had for it was the "load the filesystem from the first 1024 cylinders or bust" problem. -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member [EMAIL PROTECTED] "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
[Recipient list trimmed down to just the list. dhw] Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:38:32 +0100 From: Poul-Henning Kamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for /usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint. It's hardly impossible for both to be mountpoints. :-} /var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification. It is getting even less justifiable as time progress. The last sensible argument we had for it was the "load the filesystem from the first 1024 cylinders or bust" problem. Somehow, I'm getting a feeling of deja vu [sorry about the loss of diacritical marks], reflecting on SunOS (both 4.x 5.x), where /bin is a symlink to /usr/bin, and /lib is a symlink to /usr/lib. All of which reminds me of a singularly memorable time when I came in to (then-)work, where I had my (personal) Sun 3/60 in use as my workstation, and found that it had re-booted, but failed to switch to multi-user mode. Shortening this story, it turns out that /etc/fstab was no longer present. And it had been so long since I had paid any attention to the filesystems, I didn't know what the name of the partition for /usr was. And this was the only SunOS 4.x box in the shop. So... I didn't have access to such user-level programs as "ls", for example. Shell built-ins, especially "echo", along with redirection (to fabricate a skeleton /etc/fstab enough to get boot-strapped) saved the day... and I learned a little. :-} Cheers, david -- David Wolfskill [EMAIL PROTECTED] UNIX System Administrator voice: (650) 577-7158 pager: (888) 347-0197 FAX: (650) 372-5915 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 10:32:23AM -0800, Matthew Dillon wrote: : : So how about /usr/sbin/chown - /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with : just the root file system mounted? : : As one who just got his ass bitten by this, I would vote yes. : :As one who's missed chown at times when only root's mounted, I'm with Bill. : :-- : Ben Rosengart : :UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group :StarMedia Network, Inc. I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in /usr that wasn't in /. For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without vi -- which is in /usr. Bad example: yedi#EDITOR=ed disklabel -re da0 831 1,$p # /dev/rda0c: type: SCSI disk: da0s2 label: flags: bytes/sector: 512 sectors/track: 63 tracks/cylinder: 255 sectors/cylinder: 16065 [etc] yedi#type ed ed is /bin/ed yedi# 8) -- Wilko Bulte Arnhem, The Netherlands - The FreeBSD Project WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 07:38:32PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matthew Dillon writes: I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in /usr that wasn't in /. For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without vi -- which is in /usr. EDITOR=/bin/ed export EDITOR disklabel -e But if we go down that path we are going to wind up with *every* binary in /usr being moved to /, which is clearly wrong. Dogmatically, yes. Sensibly: I'm not so sure. It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for /usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint. /var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification. It just has an historical justification. When /usr was another RK05 pack/drive. -- Wilko Bulte Arnhem, The Netherlands - The FreeBSD Project WWW : http://www.tcja.nl http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
How about removing awk from MAKEDEV so life isn't so hard to recover when you use a 3.3 fixit floppy after removing /dev and not making enough of it again. How about finally starting to work on devfs and forget about all the MAKEDEV junk and leave it as it is for now? Blaz Zupan, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://home.amis.net/blaz/ Medinet d.o.o., Linhartova 21, 2000 Maribor, Slovenia To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
"BSDman" == BSDman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: BSDman one idea about /usr is to allow the admin to mount it BSDman read-only. I didn't tried it but this would give some BSDman level of security against modifications of the files there BSDman in. This is particulary useful in a lab environment where you have xx workstations with local root, var, and swap NFS mounting an RO /usr. --lyndon To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )
[.] On a related subject: don't you think it's high time to end up this madness with MAKEDEV being a shell script, and reimplement it in C? Today, [.] *cough*DEVFS*cough* -- Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.Awfulhak.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour ! [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )
[.] On a related subject: don't you think it's high time to end up this madness with MAKEDEV being a shell script, and reimplement it in C? Today, [.] *cough*DEVFS*cough* Yea... been hearing that for 4 years... one of it's big short comings is that it needs a persistent backing store for this. Sounds like this C program could fullfill one of the missing parts of devfs :-) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX @ CN85sl - (RWG25) [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )
On Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 01:39:28AM +, Brian Somers wrote: [.] On a related subject: don't you think it's high time to end up this madness with MAKEDEV being a shell script, and reimplement it in C? Today, [.] *cough*DEVFS*cough* Gesunteit. - mark -- Mark Newton Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (W) Network Engineer Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (H) Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82232999 "Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223 To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: RE: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
: :Poul-Henning Kamp wrote : It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for : /usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint. : : /var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms : way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification. : : :one idea about /usr is to allow the admin to mount it read-only. I tend to make /usr a separate mount point for one reason and one reason only: So root (/) can be made a small partition (64-128M) and thus be less likely to get corrupted beyond repair in a crash. -Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brian Somers writes: : *cough*DEVFS*cough* devfs*D* Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes)
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Peter Wemm wrote: I wonder if we should move fortune to usr.bin? It's hardly a game and I'm way beyond tired of it being left out of standard paths... (ie: "/bin:/usr/bin[:/usr/local/bin]") I have no opinion about fortune, but I do think that md5 should be moved from /sbin to /bin - it's hardly a "system program or administration utility" but is a quite general-purpose tool. /me 's gratuitous-change alarm goes off Doug White| FreeBSD: The Power to Serve [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Peter Wemm wrote: I wonder if we should move fortune to usr.bin? It's hardly a game and I'm way beyond tired of it being left out of standard paths... (ie: "/bin:/usr/bin[:/usr/local/bin]") I have no opinion about fortune, but I do think that md5 should be moved from /sbin to /bin - it's hardly a "system program or administration utility" but is a quite general-purpose tool. /me 's gratuitous-change alarm goes off So how about /usr/sbin/chown - /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with just the root file system mounted? louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )
On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: So how about /usr/sbin/chown - /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with just the root file system mounted? As one who just got his ass bitten by this, I would vote yes. -- - bill fumerola - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message
