Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Pat Lynch]

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Ben Rosengart wrote:

> > vi -- which is in /usr.
> 
> Good example of something else that would be great to have in /bin.
> 
> *ducking*
> 
> --
>  Ben Rosengart


and as a coworker, I'd have to tell you how to use cat ;)

ROTFL.

-Pat

__

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Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )

[Daniel C. Sobral]

David Scheidt wrote:
> 
> What's wrong with run with system V runlevels?  Other than it's system V and
> everything AT^HUSL did is evil, of course.

They try to map graphs into a line.

--
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who is as social as a wampas

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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Jos Backus]

On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 12:07:49AM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> I would prefer if the lines could be added to /etc/ttys somewhat
> like:
>   sshd "/usr/local/sbin/sshd" none ondemand
> 
> And then we could
>   telinit -on sshd
>   telinit -off sshd

hal:/service# ls -l telnetd
total 2
-rwxr-xr-x  1 root  wheel   64 Sep 20 11:34 run
drwx--  2 root  wheel  512 Dec 14 16:09 supervise
hal:/service# cat telnetd/run
#!/bin/sh
exec \
tcpserver -RH -D 0 telnet /usr/libexec/telnetd
hal:/service# svstat telnetd
telnetd: up (pid 224)
hal:/service# svc -d telnetd
hal:/service# svstat telnetd
telnetd: down, normally up
hal:/service# svc -u telnetd
hal:/service# svstat telnetd
telnetd: up (pid 40965)

init's role is assumed by a program named svscan. Of course, svscan not being
init, it cannot control daemons that background themselves.

http://cr.yp.to/daemontools.html

-- 
Jos Backus  _/ _/_/_/  "Reliability means never
   _/ _/   _/   having to say you're sorry."
  _/ _/_/_/ -- D. J. Bernstein
 _/  _/ _/_/
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Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:22:46AM -0500, Donn Miller wrote:
> 
>  > runlevels, OpenBSD does not or goes with an entirely different
>  > system), them would it be fair to consider FreeBSD "BSD"?  The
>  > advantage here is that FreeBSD would mature into it's own type of
>  > UNIX with a BSD heritage.
>  
> Can we please not have this thread again?  Anyone who is interested
> in following up on anything whatsoever to do with SysV runlevels 
> should first familiarize themselves with the numerous problems they
> have which have been hashed out on the lists several times over the
> last 12 months (hint:  to to the mail archive search engine at 
> www.freebsd.org and search for "runlevel").

Only correction here is ``over the last 7 years'' not ``12 months''.  This
will be atleast the 4th time we have been over this...


-- 
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Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )

[Mark Newton]

On Thu, Dec 16, 1999 at 01:22:46AM -0500, Donn Miller wrote:

 > runlevels, OpenBSD does not or goes with an entirely different
 > system), them would it be fair to consider FreeBSD "BSD"?  The
 > advantage here is that FreeBSD would mature into it's own type of
 > UNIX with a BSD heritage.
 
Can we please not have this thread again?  Anyone who is interested
in following up on anything whatsoever to do with SysV runlevels 
should first familiarize themselves with the numerous problems they
have which have been hashed out on the lists several times over the
last 12 months (hint:  to to the mail archive search engine at 
www.freebsd.org and search for "runlevel").

- mark

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Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )

[Donn Miller]

David Scheidt wrote:

> What's wrong with run with system V runlevels?  Other than it's system V and
> everything AT^HUSL did is evil, of course.

Well, the one danger is that we'd be slowly drifting away from
the classic BSD way of doing thigs.  Of course, the official BSD
is dead (right?).  But OTOH, we want to carry FreeBSD forward, so
if that means we have to incorporate some SysVisms, then so be
it.  After all, SysV borrowed some things from BSD.

The second question I have is, do we try to stay on par with what
Open/NetBSD are doing?  Should we stick together, synchronise our
efforts, and try to define what comprises "BSD"?  Or, do we let
the 3 BSDs diverge completely?

Well, if the 3 diverge too far (ex:  FreeBSD implements SysV
runlevels, OpenBSD does not or goes with an entirely different
system), them would it be fair to consider FreeBSD "BSD"?  The
advantage here is that FreeBSD would mature into it's own type of
UNIX with a BSD heritage.

- Donn


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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Peter Jeremy writes
:
>On 1999-Dec-16 07:48:48 +1100, Poul-Henning Kamp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>And we don't really need YAD when we have init hanging around doing
>>nothing for its keep anyway...
>
>I beg to differ.  To quote init(8):
> The role of init is so critical that if it dies, the system will reboot
> itself automatically.  If, at bootstrap time, the init process cannot be
> located, the system will panic with the message ``panic: init died
> (signal %d, exit %d)''.
>
>This suggests that init needs to be very robust - which generally
>translates to `small and well audited'.  Non-core functionality
>(which IMHO includes devd) really belongs in another process.

Well, there are a lot of chicken & eggs issues with devd, which
may skew that a bit, but lets examine that when we get there.

>>and at the same time I wouldn't mind if init were taught to keep
>>important programs running, things like sshd, inetd, syslogd and
>>similar should be restarted if they die.
>
>It can do that now.  Add the following lines to /etc/ttys:
>
>sshd   "/usr/local/sbin/sshd" none on
>inetd  "/usr/sbin/inetd -Ww" none on
>syslogd"/usr/sbin/syslogd" none on
>
>(This ability has always been present, but is now documented).

Yes, but apart from the highly unintuitive name "/etc/ttys" any
process which involves edititing a file and signalling a process
has a big potential for races.

I would prefer if the lines could be added to /etc/ttys somewhat
like:
sshd "/usr/local/sbin/sshd" none ondemand

And then we could
telinit -on sshd
telinit -off sshd

or similar.

--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )

[David Scheidt]

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Dav
> id Scheidt writes:
> >What's wrong with run with system V runlevels?  Other than it's system V and
> >everything AT^HUSL did is evil, of course.   
> 
> runlevels are a very oldfashioned way to think about things, I don't
> want to have one big button which is called "NETWORKING ON/OFF".

runlevels let you do more than just run gettys, control networking, and run
/sbin/rc?.d scripts.  We do.

David Scheidt



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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Matthew
 Jacob writes:
>> >
>> >I was just thinking it could get tricky and have subtle ordering bugs of
>> >new tty devices, changes to ttys and signals all about the same time.
>> 
>> Well, they are no less subtle by having them in different processes...
>
>No, but possibly easier to track and debug. Just a minor nit. N'mind...

But lets say you add a pccard on which you want a getty, so devd will
have to tell init to run a getty on that port wouldn't it ?

--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Re: Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Dav
id Scheidt writes:
>On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Warner Losh writes:
>> 
>> I would really like to see the devd functionality to live in init
>> and at the same time I wouldn't mind if init were taught to keep
>> important programs running, things like sshd, inetd, syslogd and
>> similar should be restarted if they die.
>> 
>> No, I don't want sysV runlevels or the weird shit AIX has.  I'm sure
>> a clean and sensible way can be found, if some mental energies are
>> poured into the problem.
>
>What's wrong with run with system V runlevels?  Other than it's system V and
>everything AT^HUSL did is evil, of course.   

runlevels are a very oldfashioned way to think about things, I don't
want to have one big button which is called "NETWORKING ON/OFF".

We need to be able to dynamically say "keep this puppy alive" and
later "ok, forget about that one from now on".

--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Init Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) ) )

[David Scheidt]

On Wed, 15 Dec 1999, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Warner Losh writes:
> 
> I would really like to see the devd functionality to live in init
> and at the same time I wouldn't mind if init were taught to keep
> important programs running, things like sshd, inetd, syslogd and
> similar should be restarted if they die.
> 
> No, I don't want sysV runlevels or the weird shit AIX has.  I'm sure
> a clean and sensible way can be found, if some mental energies are
> poured into the problem.

What's wrong with run with system V runlevels?  Other than it's system V and
everything AT^HUSL did is evil, of course.   

David



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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Matthew
 Jacob writes:
>> >Isn't this throwing an awful lot onto init?
>> 
>> Not really...
>> 
>> The meta-daemon part is no different from keeping gettys in the air...
>> 
>> The devd thing consists of selecting on some magic fd and running a
>> program when something happens.  This could be done with a getty
>> like daemon too of course.
>
>I was just thinking it could get tricky and have subtle ordering bugs of
>new tty devices, changes to ttys and signals all about the same time.

Well, they are no less subtle by having them in different processes...

--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Matthew
 Jacob writes:
>> 
>
>> I would really like to see the devd functionality to live in init
>> and at the same time I wouldn't mind if init were taught to keep
>> important programs running, things like sshd, inetd, syslogd and
>> similar should be restarted if they die.
>> 
>> No, I don't want sysV runlevels or the weird shit AIX has.  I'm sure
>> a clean and sensible way can be found, if some mental energies are
>> poured into the problem.
>> 
>
>Isn't this throwing an awful lot onto init?

Not really...

The meta-daemon part is no different from keeping gettys in the air...

The devd thing consists of selecting on some magic fd and running a
program when something happens.  This could be done with a getty
like daemon too of course.


--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Warner Losh writes:
>In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Poul-Henning Kamp writes:
>: A "devd" program would solve 98% of what devfs could solve.  It cannot
>: solve the homebrew-a-vnode-for-the-root-fs problem.  FreeBSD needs a
>: "devd" program *anyway* because what good is dynamic devices if you
>: can't do something intelligent with them when they appear (mount/ifconfig
>: etc etc etc).
>
>Yes.  I'd like to see this in the future.  There is no reason to have
>pccardd after the cut over to the new code.  I don't think there is a
>reason to have both devd and usbd.  They all just do things when
>devices come and go.

And we don't really need YAD when we have init hanging around doing
nothing for its keep anyway...

I would really like to see the devd functionality to live in init
and at the same time I wouldn't mind if init were taught to keep
important programs running, things like sshd, inetd, syslogd and
similar should be restarted if they die.

No, I don't want sysV runlevels or the weird shit AIX has.  I'm sure
a clean and sensible way can be found, if some mental energies are
poured into the problem.

--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Warner Losh]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Poul-Henning Kamp writes:
: A "devd" program would solve 98% of what devfs could solve.  It cannot
: solve the homebrew-a-vnode-for-the-root-fs problem.  FreeBSD needs a
: "devd" program *anyway* because what good is dynamic devices if you
: can't do something intelligent with them when they appear (mount/ifconfig
: etc etc etc).

Yes.  I'd like to see this in the future.  There is no reason to have
pccardd after the cut over to the new code.  I don't think there is a
reason to have both devd and usbd.  They all just do things when
devices come and go.

Warner


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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Daniel C. Sobral" writes:
>"Rodney W. Grimes" wrote:
>> 
>> Yea... been hearing that for 4 years... one of it's big short comings is
>> that it needs a persistent backing store for this.  Sounds like this C
>> program could fullfill one of the missing parts of devfs :-)

A "devd" program would solve 98% of what devfs could solve.  It cannot
solve the homebrew-a-vnode-for-the-root-fs problem.  FreeBSD needs a
"devd" program *anyway* because what good is dynamic devices if you
can't do something intelligent with them when they appear (mount/ifconfig
etc etc etc).


--
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Daniel C. Sobral]

"Rodney W. Grimes" wrote:
> 
> Yea... been hearing that for 4 years... one of it's big short comings is
> that it needs a persistent backing store for this.  Sounds like this C
> program could fullfill one of the missing parts of devfs :-)

F persistent backing store. The daemon solution is perfectly fine.

--
Daniel C. Sobral(8-DCS)
who is as social as a wampas

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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Warner Losh]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Brian Somers writes:
: *cough*DEVFS*cough*

devfs*D*

Warner


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Re: RE: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Matthew Dillon]

:
:Poul-Henning Kamp wrote
:> It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for
:> /usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint.
:>
:> /var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms
:> way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification.
:>
:
:one idea about /usr is to allow the admin to mount it read-only.

I tend to make /usr a separate mount point for one reason and one
reason only:  So root (/) can be made a small partition (64-128M) and 
thus be less likely to get corrupted beyond repair in a crash.

-Matt



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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Mark Newton]

On Wed, Dec 15, 1999 at 01:39:28AM +, Brian Somers wrote:

 > [.]
 > > On a related subject: don't you think it's high time to end up this
 > > madness with MAKEDEV being a shell script, and reimplement it in C? Today,
 > [.]
 > *cough*DEVFS*cough*

Gesunteit.

   - mark

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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> [.]
> > On a related subject: don't you think it's high time to end up this
> > madness with MAKEDEV being a shell script, and reimplement it in C? Today,
> [.]
> *cough*DEVFS*cough*

Yea... been hearing that for 4 years... one of it's big short comings is
that it needs a persistent backing store for this.  Sounds like this C
program could fullfill one of the missing parts of devfs :-)


-- 
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Re: MAKEDEV (Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes ) )

[Brian Somers]

[.]
> On a related subject: don't you think it's high time to end up this
> madness with MAKEDEV being a shell script, and reimplement it in C? Today,
[.]
*cough*DEVFS*cough*
-- 
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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Lyndon Nerenberg]

> "BSDman" == BSDman  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

BSDman> one idea about /usr is to allow the admin to mount it
BSDman> read-only.  I didn't tried it but this would give some
BSDman> level of security against modifications of the files there
BSDman> in.

This is particulary useful in a lab environment where you have xx
workstations with local root, var, and swap NFS mounting an RO /usr.

--lyndon


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RE: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[BSDman]

Poul-Henning Kamp wrote
> It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for
> /usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint.
>
> /var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms
> way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification.
>

one idea about /usr is to allow the admin to mount it read-only.
I didn't tried it but this would give some level of security against
modifications
of the files there in.

> It is getting even less justifiable as time progress.  The last
> sensible argument we had for it was the "load the filesystem from
> the first 1024 cylinders or bust" problem.

I think the "cylinder" limitation is still of concern. If all OSes come
with large root paritions, installing many of them on the same host would be
a nightmare.


Regards,

mouss

Free your Net with BSD



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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Blaz Zupan]

> How about removing awk from MAKEDEV so life isn't so hard to recover
> when you use a 3.3 fixit floppy after removing /dev and not making
> enough of it again.

How about finally starting to work on devfs and forget about all the
MAKEDEV junk and leave it as it is for now?

Blaz Zupan, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://home.amis.net/blaz/
Medinet d.o.o., Linhartova 21, 2000 Maribor, Slovenia



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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Wilko Bulte]

On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 07:38:32PM +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Matthew Dillon writes:
> >
> >I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in
> >/usr that wasn't in /.  For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without
> >vi -- which is in /usr.
> 
>   EDITOR=/bin/ed
>   export EDITOR
>   disklabel -e
> 
> >But if we go down that path we are going to wind up with *every* binary
> >in /usr being moved to /, which is clearly wrong.
> 
> Dogmatically, yes.   Sensibly:  I'm not so sure.
> 
> It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for
> /usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint.
> 
> /var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms
> way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification.

It just has an historical justification. When /usr was another RK05
pack/drive.

-- 
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WWW : http://www.tcja.nl  http://www.freebsd.org


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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Wilko Bulte]

On Tue, Dec 14, 1999 at 10:32:23AM -0800, Matthew Dillon wrote:
> :> 
> :> > So how about /usr/sbin/chown -> /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with
> :> > just the root file system mounted?   
> :> 
> :> As one who just got his ass bitten by this, I would vote yes.
> :
> :As one who's missed chown at times when only root's mounted, I'm with Bill.
> :
> :--
> : Ben Rosengart
> :
> :UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group
> :StarMedia Network, Inc.
> 
> I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in
> /usr that wasn't in /.  For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without
> vi -- which is in /usr.

Bad example:

yedi#EDITOR=ed disklabel -re da0
831
1,$p
# /dev/rda0c:
type: SCSI
disk: da0s2
label: 
flags:
bytes/sector: 512
sectors/track: 63
tracks/cylinder: 255
sectors/cylinder: 16065

[etc]

yedi#type ed
ed is /bin/ed
yedi#

8)

-- 
Wilko Bulte Arnhem, The Netherlands   - The FreeBSD Project 
WWW : http://www.tcja.nl  http://www.freebsd.org


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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[David Wolfskill]

[Recipient list trimmed down to just the list.  dhw]

>Date: Tue, 14 Dec 1999 19:38:32 +0100
>From: Poul-Henning Kamp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>

>It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for
>/usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint.

It's hardly impossible for both to be mountpoints.  :-}

>/var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms
>way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification.

>It is getting even less justifiable as time progress.  The last
>sensible argument we had for it was the "load the filesystem from
>the first 1024 cylinders or bust" problem.

Somehow, I'm getting a feeling of deja vu [sorry about the loss of
diacritical marks], reflecting on SunOS (both 4.x & 5.x), where /bin is
a symlink to /usr/bin, and /lib is a symlink to /usr/lib.

All of which reminds me of a singularly memorable time when I came in to
(then-)work, where I had my (personal) Sun 3/60 in use as my workstation,
and found that it had re-booted, but failed to switch to multi-user
mode.

Shortening this story, it turns out that /etc/fstab was no longer
present.  And it had been so long since I had paid any attention to the
filesystems, I didn't know what the name of the partition for /usr was.
And this was the only SunOS 4.x box in the shop.

So... I didn't have access to such user-level programs as "ls", for
example.

Shell built-ins, especially "echo", along with redirection (to fabricate
a skeleton /etc/fstab enough to get boot-strapped) saved the day... and
I learned a little.  :-}

Cheers,
david
-- 
David Wolfskill [EMAIL PROTECTED] UNIX System Administrator
voice: (650) 577-7158   pager: (888) 347-0197   FAX: (650) 372-5915


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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Matthew Dillon writes:
>
>I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in
>/usr that wasn't in /.  For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without
>vi -- which is in /usr.

EDITOR=/bin/ed
export EDITOR
disklabel -e

>But if we go down that path we are going to wind up with *every* binary
>in /usr being moved to /, which is clearly wrong.

Dogmatically, yes.   Sensibly:  I'm not so sure.

It would make more sense, considering the way FreeBSD is distributed for
/usr/local to be a mountpoint than for /usr to be a mountpoint.

/var is traditionally a mountpoint to keep the logs out of harms
way (and vice versa), but /usr never had that level of justification.

It is getting even less justifiable as time progress.  The last
sensible argument we had for it was the "load the filesystem from
the first 1024 cylinders or bust" problem.

--
Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   "Real hackers run -current on their laptop."
FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far!


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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Ben Rosengart]

On Tue, 14 Dec 1999, Matthew Dillon wrote:

> I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in
> /usr that wasn't in /.  For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without
> vi -- which is in /usr.

Good example of something else that would be great to have in /bin.

*ducking*

--
 Ben Rosengart

UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group
StarMedia Network, Inc.



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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Matthew Dillon]

:> 
:> > So how about /usr/sbin/chown -> /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with
:> > just the root file system mounted?   
:> 
:> As one who just got his ass bitten by this, I would vote yes.
:
:As one who's missed chown at times when only root's mounted, I'm with Bill.
:
:--
: Ben Rosengart
:
:UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group
:StarMedia Network, Inc.

I think at one time or another all of us have missed *something* in
/usr that wasn't in /.  For example, disklabel -e doesn't work without
vi -- which is in /usr.

But if we go down that path we are going to wind up with *every* binary
in /usr being moved to /, which is clearly wrong.

Moving a well known, long-existing system binary is not something that
should be undertaken lightly.  I will remind everyone that when
sendmail was moved from /usr/libexec to /usr/sbin, it created 
ramifications that didn't clear up for a year.  Sendmail's move could be
justified, but I don't think chown's move can be -- certainly not on
the basis of something as flimsy as MAKEDEV needing it!

-Matt
Matthew Dillon 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Ben Rosengart]

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote:
> 
> > So how about /usr/sbin/chown -> /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with
> > just the root file system mounted?   
> 
> As one who just got his ass bitten by this, I would vote yes.

As one who's missed chown at times when only root's mounted, I'm with Bill.

--
 Ben Rosengart

UNIX Systems Engineer, Skunk Group
StarMedia Network, Inc.



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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Matthew Thyer]

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote:
> So how about /usr/sbin/chown -> /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with
> just the root file system mounted?   

How about removing awk from MAKEDEV so life isn't so hard to recover
when you use a 3.3 fixit floppy after removing /dev and not making
enough of it again.

-- 
/===\
| Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] |
\===/
"If it is true that our Universe has a zero net value for all conserved
quantities, then it may simply be a fluctuation of the vacuum of some
larger space in which our Universe is imbedded. In answer to the
question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our
Universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time."
 E. P. Tryon   from "Nature" Vol.246 Dec.14, 1973



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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Bill Fumerola]

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Louis A. Mamakos wrote:

> So how about /usr/sbin/chown -> /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with
> just the root file system mounted?   

As one who just got his ass bitten by this, I would vote yes.

-- 
- bill fumerola - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - BF1560 - computer horizons corp -
- ph:(800) 252-2421 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]  -






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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes )

[Louis A. Mamakos]

> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Peter Wemm wrote:
> > 
> > > I wonder if we should move fortune to usr.bin?  It's hardly a game and I'm
> > > way beyond tired of it being left out of standard paths...
> > > (ie: "/bin:/usr/bin[:/usr/local/bin]")
> > 
> > I have no opinion about fortune, but I do think that md5 should be moved
> > from /sbin to /bin - it's hardly a "system program or administration
> > utility" but is a quite general-purpose tool.
> 
> /me 's gratuitous-change alarm goes off

So how about /usr/sbin/chown -> /sbin/chown so that MAKEDEV works with
just the root file system mounted?   

louie






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Re: Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes)

[Doug White]

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Peter Wemm wrote:
> 
> > I wonder if we should move fortune to usr.bin?  It's hardly a game and I'm
> > way beyond tired of it being left out of standard paths...
> > (ie: "/bin:/usr/bin[:/usr/local/bin]")
> 
> I have no opinion about fortune, but I do think that md5 should be moved
> from /sbin to /bin - it's hardly a "system program or administration
> utility" but is a quite general-purpose tool.

/me 's gratuitous-change alarm goes off

Doug White|  FreeBSD: The Power to Serve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] |  www.FreeBSD.org



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Speaking of moving files (Re: make world broken building fortunes)

[Kris Kennaway]

On Mon, 13 Dec 1999, Peter Wemm wrote:

> I wonder if we should move fortune to usr.bin?  It's hardly a game and I'm
> way beyond tired of it being left out of standard paths...
> (ie: "/bin:/usr/bin[:/usr/local/bin]")

I have no opinion about fortune, but I do think that md5 should be moved
from /sbin to /bin - it's hardly a "system program or administration
utility" but is a quite general-purpose tool.

Kris



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