rcng guru needed
while hunting down the problem that my diskless configuration is not starting the loopback interface i came about the following: rcorder does not list network, but it does network_ipv6 further checking reveals: in /etc/rc.d/dhclient: # PROVIDE: dhclient # REQUIRE: network netif mountcritlocal # BEFORE: NETWORKING and in /etc/rc.d/NETWORKING: # PROVIDE: NETWORKING NETWORK # REQUIRE: network dhclient altqd netif routing network_ipv6 isdnd ppp-user # REQUIRE: routed mrouted route6d mroute6d no amount of efford has succeeded in getting network on the rcorder list, i.e: in /etc/rc.d/amd # PROVIDE: amd # REQUIRE: network rpcbind mountall nfsclient # BEFORE: DAEMON does not have the requiered effect, so how can i get network to run? (the logic says that it should not requiere network, since nfsclient does). danny ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: rcng guru needed
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 01:55:41PM +0200, Danny Braniss wrote: while hunting down the problem that my diskless configuration is not starting the loopback interface i came about the following: Mmmm - everythings OK for me: [51]cicely14# ifconfig lo0 lo0: flags=8049UP,LOOPBACK,RUNNING,MULTICAST mtu 16384 inet 127.0.0.1 netmask 0xff00 inet6 ::1 prefixlen 128 inet6 fe80::1%lo0 prefixlen 64 scopeid 0x4 The only tricky issue with diskless was to set root_rw_mount=YES for not ending in an md based /var. -- B.Walter BWCThttp://www.bwct.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Where is FreeBSD going?
I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the project. --Brett Glass At 11:43 AM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. -Original Message- From: Maxim Hermion [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:30 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Where is FreeBSD going? I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years now, so my overview of the entire history of glue that binds FreeBSD together isn't complete. That said, I've come to be a bit disappointed at how events in the last 18 months or so seem to be pushing the project in a direction that has made things more difficult, instead of more successful, that has shown distain for experience and quality and made FreeBSD a platform for large ego's to push their personal projects down everyone's throat. The statistics sample from 2001 over a year was a cheap attempt to minimize Matt's contribution to the project. The reason why he has been mostly silent is probably one of the most prominent signs of his superior maturity. The fact that the official defense (mostly fronted by Greg, atm) he wasn't such a substantial committer is crap, for the most part. If one wanted to go by the stats, Jeff Robertson (sorry if I munged the spelling) would be one of the key committers, and his UMA system isn't even entirely ripe yet, it's just been committed within the sample timeframe. That suddenly phk is at the top of the list, is simple a result of his newest attempt to add another large chunk of bit rot to the project that he can later claim not to have time to maintain unless someone is willing to pay for my time (like the atm bits, the half-finished devd monster, et.al.) One can hardly get him to look at his malloc bits, that put his name in lights at some point in the long past. Matt didn't contribute because he was convinced that that the smp development direction that was chosen (my impression at least from the archives and my fading memory) was overly complex, too complex for the number and talent level of the contributers involved, and that it would delay a release from the -current branch significantly. So he was right. I'll almost bet that that was a constant sore for John, who still hasn't gotten his long-promised, but little delivered re-entrant work done, but he always had time enough to object to any other commits that might help along the way. Strangely Julian and Matt could work together. One might attribute certain commits to both Matt and Julian (if that would matter anyway, since -core is interested in proving the opposite statistically). If the issue here had anything to do with IPFW, then you all better get out your C-coder hats and take a little more time to fix that rotting pile of muck that has been the standard broken packet filter interface for FreeBSD long past its possible usefulness. A packet filter with no central maintainer which is subject to once yearly random feature bloat through some wild university project from Luigi. The brokenness that Luigi introduced (and the repository bloat through backing out and recommitting, ad absurdum) was probably no less a threat to security than anything Matt did. If the security officer was to be blatantly honest with himself, ipfw would be marked broken for either a full audit or full removal (just port obsd's pf or something that someone actually actively _cares_ about). You've alienated Jordan, Mike, Bill Paul (for all I can see), Greenman, you constantly rag on Terry, even though he's seen and done more with FreeBSD than most of you, O'Brien is on the verge of quitting (since he, like I, am not convinced that GEOM is anything more than an ego trip that will never be completely maintained or usefully documented). There are certainly others, too, that have attempted to make technically correct contributions, but didn't fit into the sort of paranoid glee club that core would like to have around them. You guys lack the talent to steer the positive from Matt into the project and let the crap fall by the wayside. I'm not saying Matt's rants are the most intelligent thing he's done, but he's sat by the wayside and watch the superstars beat up the code to a point where it's less stable, slower, and more bloated than it ever was. I, for one, can understand his frustration (as I can with Mike's, Jordan's, and a few others), although I find his method of expressing it extreme, I often wished he'd have just visited the offenders personally with a clue bat. All in all, history will judge if -core has made the right decision. I
RE: Where is FreeBSD going?
At 12:40 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: Right. What concerns me most is the rise in the incidence of trolls all trolling about the same subject or along the same vein. Would someone please explain what is going on? As a production user of fBSD this is troubling. It's probably one of the Slashdot BSD is dead trolls. The fact is, though, that there ARE things about FreeBSD that could stand improvement. These days, when I build a box, I am torn between using FreeBSD 5.x -- which is not ready for prime time but is at least being worked on actively -- and using 4.9, which isn't as stable as it should be because the developers broke the cardinal rule of making radical changes to -STABLE. This *is* a real issue for those of us who are admins. FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). Again, this is a governance issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their sandbox. So, some of the criticism is actually valid. --Brett ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
Mark, You are totally right with the stuff that is starting to stick. Let us all be happy and continue to support the freebsd.org core team. Internal fights are pretty common, no one can ever be happy with other's choices. But i think it's a shame that one would have to resign or worse the freebsd project hangs and perhaps gets killed by this foolish actions. Keep hanging tight guys!!! Regards, Remko Lodder -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Mark Dixon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2004 23:23 Aan: Remko Lodder; [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Re: [Freebsd-hackers] Re: Where is FreeBSD going? -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Monday 05 Jan 2004 22:01, Remko Lodder wrote: I Never ever noticed that these things are playing within freebsd.org I See a healthy and good working organisation behind freebsd.org I think they are really productional and give out releases a lot of times. Sorry yeah, I didn't phrase that all that well. I also fully support the people putting hours of their time into producing a great OS. I just think that with all of this mud being thrown, some of it is starting to stick. Mark -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (FreeBSD) iD8DBQE/+ePmLqgJ90OcaiARAuPrAKD44kok+WrOBnDEt/a39RKq6c+4GwCfeBIe 6N7mnoWJFWcCKARVNUpBCIY= =IEuG -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Where is FreeBSD going?
At 04:00 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: I think this is what is on my mind these days. I'm preparing to load up some machines for production soon (I've already put it off for too long waiting for 5-STABLE) and I don't like what I'm seeing -- with both the mud slinging here and the performance in the lab (mostly anecdotal). I don't think that *this* conversation is mud slinging. What's happening on Slashdot, on the other hand, is. FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). Again, this is a governance issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their sandbox. So, some of the criticism is actually valid. I noticed it too but I just chalked it up to being crazy busy and not paying much attention. Nope, it's not because you're too busy. It's true. FreeBSD is getting fewer mentions in the mainstream press, and fewer commercial apps, lately. Linux is mentioned as if it was the ONLY alternative to Windows. Work is needed to raise FreeBSD's profile. --Brett ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
Experienced programmers can be leaders very effectively if they get feedback regularly from users. Its part of software development to communicate with users. Provided the leadership listens to users requirements, and acts in that interest there is no problem. In reality, there are several types of users of FreeBSD including: Programmers System Administrators College Students (i fit in the first 3 groups) Hobbyists and young people who heard its like linux (lol) (sorry if i left your group out) Lucas Holt ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 10:30:03AM -0800, Maxim Hermion wrote: I've been an avid follower of the developments in FreeBSD for around 5 years now, so my overview of the entire history of glue that binds Sincerely, Maxim Hermion FreeBSD committer Dare I ask for some form of proof this is you? Later on you say you can't use your real name but you don't think that anybody is stupid enough to not notice the similarity in your name? How about a signed reply? -lewiz. -- I was so much older then, I'm younger than that now. --Bob Dylan, 1964. -| msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | url:www.lewiz.org |- pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Chello blocking FreshPorts service
For some months Chello has denied smtp service from the FreshPorts mail server. All queries to Chello regarding this matter have gone unanswered. $ telnet smtpgate.chello.at 25 Trying 213.46.255.2... Connected to smtpgate.chello.at. Escape character is '^]'. 421 viefep12-int.chello.at connection refused from [66.154.97.250] Connection closed by foreign host. This happens for all Chello domains I have tried. This means that Chello users are unable to use the FreshPorts notification service. For what it's worth, this also affect the FreeBSD Diary announcement mailing list. If anyone has contacts at Chello, please ask them to look into this. All attempts to get this resolved have been blocked. I've heard many stories about Chello standards of service. This situation validates everything I've heard. cheers -- Dan Langille : http://www.langille.org/ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
Hi all, Since several people actually thought this mail was written by me, I'm replying here to tell it wasn't. This mail was sent by the same guy who periodically impersonate one of the FreeBSD committers to rant about the project. His mail doesn't reflect my thoughts at all. Please all let this thread die. Thanks, Maxime ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
turn .so into .o?
Is there a way to turn a .so into a .o? I would like to link something statically, and I'm doing a bunch of work on the symbol table and would like to avoid a mess with using ar(1). -- - Alfred Perlstein - Research Engineering Development Inc. - email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cell: 408-480-4684 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
switching between groups
I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). Any help would be appreciated. Adil ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Where is FreeBSD going?
-Original Message- From: Brett Glass [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 9:16 PM To: Munden, Randall J; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Where is FreeBSD going? At 04:00 PM 1/5/2004, Munden, Randall J wrote: I think this is what is on my mind these days. I'm preparing to load up some machines for production soon (I've already put it off for too long waiting for 5-STABLE) and I don't like what I'm seeing -- with both the mud slinging here and the performance in the lab (mostly anecdotal). I don't think that *this* conversation is mud slinging. What's happening on Slashdot, on the other hand, is. Right, I typed that wrong. This conversation certainly isn't mud slinging -- open, honest discussion can do nothing but good [no matter the outcome]. Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to why someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling these lists. In my experience it's a good idea to explore the reasoning behind that type of dedication (faulty or not) for no other reason that discovery. On-the-other-hand some people accuse me of being obsessive about information. /me shrugs All I can do now is apologize for 'feeding the troll' or rather, sorry for calling attention to a subject that may be painful, cliché or overused to others. FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). Again, this is a governance issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their sandbox. So, some of the criticism is actually valid. I noticed it too but I just chalked it up to being crazy busy and not paying much attention. Nope, it's not because you're too busy. It's true. FreeBSD is getting fewer mentions in the mainstream press, and fewer commercial apps, lately. Linux is mentioned as if it was the ONLY alternative to Windows. Work is needed to raise FreeBSD's profile. Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? Frankly, I'd never given thought to providing more effort. The OS has always done it's own advocacy in my experience. --Brett ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/free bsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
On Monday 05 January 2004 11:14 am, Brett Glass wrote: I'd like to see a more open and inclusive form of governance for FreeBSD. The current system of governance has, as its underlying assumption, that the most prolific coders make the best leaders. In my personal experience, this isn't a valid assumption. System administrators and end users have a big stake in FreeBSD, and are just as likely (perhaps more likely) to be good leaders for the project. The current system of governance is open and inclusive of those who have demonstrated the talent, ability, and willingness to be contributors to FreeBSD. The current core team is made up of a mix of big-time coders like Peter and Warner, and small-time coders like myself (now slightly below middle of the pack on commits) and a variety of other skills. I strongly encourage all FreeBSD committers to continuously watch for people who might be good core team members. Watch for leadership, for a sense of fair play, and for the ability to steer FreeBSD, from both technical and organizational viewpoints. Look for someone with 'the big picture,' and a vision of where FreeBSD is headed that you share. Somebody whose viewpoint doesn't extend beyond the virtual memory system, for instance, may be critical to the success of a kernel, but that doesn't necessarily make them the best person to steer a complex product that brings 10,000 applications along with it. We don't appear to have anyone like that on core now, and I doubt we will in the future. Programmers, system administrators, end users, and anyone else who wants to contribute to FreeBSD are welcome to contribute in whatever way they can. Anyone can file a PR about any aspect of the system they find troubling, or delightful, or have a better way of doing. Strike up a relationship with a committer or two (or twenty), let your ability and willingness to work be known, and become a committer too. 400 or so of your peers have already done it. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
On Tuesday 06 January 2004 09:05 am, Munden, Randall J wrote: Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to why someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling these lists. In my experience it's a good idea to explore the reasoning behind that type of dedication (faulty or not) for no other reason that discovery. On-the-other-hand some people accuse me of being obsessive about information. /me shrugs People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. Attempting to apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to produce useful results. Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? Yes, to all of the above. Pick the one(s) you enjoy most, or that you wish to learn most, and dig in. Best of all would be to write or fix some code, or write some articles that get printed on dead trees -- what Brett likes to call 'the mainstream press.' You know, those things the IT management leaves on the floor of the mens room. Frankly, I'd never given thought to providing more effort. The OS has always done it's own advocacy in my experience. Advocacy is important only if you want to conquer the world. Brett apparently does; many of us just want an operating system that meets our needs, and don't particularly care what somebody else uses. IMO, casual 'desktop' or 'laptop' computer users are probably better served by Mac OS X than anything I want to turn FreeBSD into, which is why my 68 year old father is a Mac owner. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
Munden, Randall J [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This makes me wonder if it isn't time for a new -core. No, just a better email filter. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
Munden, Randall J wrote: Right, I typed that wrong. This conversation certainly isn't mud slinging -- open, honest discussion can do nothing but good [no matter the outcome]. The cleverness of the troll was: 1. It was written by somebody who at the least had read these lists for at least the last two years 2. It aired the real frustrations of those of us without commit bits 3. It was on the whole, apart from the personal attacks, reasonably correct. Which leads me to query, given limited time an resources, what can I do? I've moved many a production server to fBSD over the last 10 or so years -- some of them literally -- by blathering nonstop about the virtues of the OS. So what else is there? Do I need to start writing documentation or publishing and pimping more Howtos on the intarweb? Should I brush up on my C and start patching? And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers cares about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util works? Submit a patch. Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out his changes and then lost his commit bit. This was because there was an imminent commit due from somebody working on SMP, which still isn't finished really. As for users, sysadmins, people who through advocacy go about sourcing funding, sponsorship, support? They don't matter. It's the first time I've seen a software project where users are almost actively despised. Sometimes I get confused and think I must be reading an OpenBSD list instead - that's how they do it over there, and that's why I haven't run OBSD for 4 years. In short, you can put all the effort you want in, but -core and many with a commit bit will resent you for it, because you're just a user. Who cares about users? This is their project after all. And yeah, people will think I'm trolling, but I'm not. I'm just not happy with the way non-programmers are treated. My perogative, but as the project is defined as being a group of developers, it's not my project and therefore my opinion is worthless. Ask yourself this: What is the core goal of the FreeBSD project? To produce the best in it's class? Best for who? Developers? Are you a developer? Maybe it's not the OS for you then unfortunately. Personally, unless the madness around SMP, the 5- branch and various other bits are ironed out, I can see my next server deployment making use of DragonFly. At least they listen to people who don't submit patches due to the limitations of time/skill/whatever. No, I'm not a Matt fan - I like and respect most on -core and others. I just think 5- has got... well, it's all a bit out of hand really, isn't it? All they had to do was ask a few sysadmins and end users what they thought. All of this could have been avoided nearly 2 years ago. Just my tuppence worth, which few are interested in, but ho-hum. -- Paul Robinson ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
Wes Peters wrote: People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. Attempting to apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to produce useful results. Incorrect. Everybody who hates believes they have a rational reason for doing so. That others do not think that those reasons are rational is why hatred increases, and why ultimately, Europe has, on the whole and recently (last 60 years) in a more fragmented fashion, spent the last 2,000 years at war. But that's another issue. Advocacy is important only if you want to conquer the world. Brett apparently does; many of us just want an operating system that meets our needs, and don't particularly care what somebody else uses. IMO, casual 'desktop' or 'laptop' computer users are probably better served by Mac OS X than anything I want to turn FreeBSD into, which is why my 68 year old father is a Mac owner. And that's all well and good. But if you don't consult end-users in general, you're going down a slippery slope. Do not be suprised if after years of hard work when you finally -RELEASE, if the world of end-users sidles up to you at the launch party and whispers in your ear You realise what you've produced is a pile of shit, right? - you never listened to what they wanted, and so not suprisingly you missed it. If you don't have a set of aims to measure by, it's oh so easy to claim success when all the outsiders think you've spent too much time on the crack pipe. All I'm suggesting (and no, I'm not the troll, but I'd thank him, whoever he is), is that maybe the Theo de Raadt school of thought that only developers count is not a grown-up, mature and efficient system of software development when we all have definite goals in mind. Nobody is asking anybody to work for free. I'm suggesting that non-developers can assist developers in refining the project's goals, aims, direction and make sure that the work the developers carry out is the best possible. -- Paul Robinson ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching between groups
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:14:06AM -0500, Adil Katchi wrote: I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). newgrp(1) could be hacked to do this fairly easily. Currently it preserves supplemental group memberships. An option to discard supplementals could be added. Or just call setgroups() with a no-op group-list vector and then setgid()/ setegid() from within your application. BMS ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Where is FreeBSD going?
-Original Message- From: Wes Peters [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:23 AM To: Munden, Randall J; Brett Glass; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Where is FreeBSD going? On Tuesday 06 January 2004 09:05 am, Munden, Randall J wrote: Honestly, I picked up the troll thread because I'm curious as to why someone would commit so much time in effort to trolling these lists. In my experience it's a good idea to explore the reasoning behind that type of dedication (faulty or not) for no other reason that discovery. On-the-other-hand some people accuse me of being obsessive about information. /me shrugs People who hate rarely require rational reasons for hating. Attempting to apply logic to that which is not logical is not likely to produce useful results. Correct. s/reasoning/root cause/ That's what I intended. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
On 5 Jan, Brett Glass wrote: It's probably one of the Slashdot BSD is dead trolls. The fact is, though, that there ARE things about FreeBSD that could stand improvement. These days, when I build a box, I am torn between using FreeBSD 5.x -- which is not ready for prime time but is at least being worked on actively -- and using 4.9, which isn't as stable as it should be because the developers broke the cardinal rule of making radical changes to -STABLE. This *is* a real issue for those of us who are admins. The worst breakage of 4-STABLE in recent memory was the PAE commit, which I got the impression was driven by end-user demand. Probably folks who had expensive systems with 4GB of RAM who wanted to be able to run 4-STABLE production systems and make use of all that RAM right now and not wait for 5.x to become production-worthy. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Paul Robinson wrote: And therein lies a problem. The only thing any of the committers cares about is what they think. Got a problem? Submit a patch. Don't like the way things are done? Submit a patch. Don't like how such-and-such a util works? Submit a patch. While it's clearly the case that many people have met with the submit a patch response, that's probably more a property of time constraints from developers than a lack of desire to work with users to produce a system users want. Many FreeBSD developers find FreeBSD of particular appeal because it gives them a chance to produce a system they've always wanted to use: one that addresses the frustrations of many other systems out there. For example, a fair number of FreeBSD developers have their time funded by Internet Service Providers who appreciate the scalability, performance, and mangeability of FreeBSD when deployed on tens of thousands of machines. They bring changes to FreeBSD regularly reflecting those needs. Many FreeBSD developers do hang out in the public IRC channels and try to answer questions, hang out on questions@, stable@, etc. Sometimes, you post a question and get the answer That doesn't work yet, but we're looking for a few good developers..., but frequently, you also get a patch and If you could try this and see if it helps with your problem... Obviously, the harder question you ask, the more likely you'll get We're looking for a few good developers... :-). The marketting department of Microsoft may be able to keep their less user-friendly developers from talking to their users, but many people would argue that one of the greatest benefits of open source is increasing that communication, even if it means the unwashed developers talk to real people once in a while. A great many developers pick FreeBSD to work on because they're quite aware of what users of other systems have to deal with, and want to produce a system people can use. But no one is paying the bills for hand-holding, so unless people step up to do the hand holding (thanks greatly to those who do!) it's not going to happen. We'd appreciate your help in making it happen, if that's something that strikes you as done wrong or poorly. As with any commercial software development enterprise, we also have limited resources, but unlike a commercial software development enterprise, we can help involve a much larger community in building and supporting a product. Personally, unless the madness around SMP, the 5- branch and various other bits are ironed out, I can see my next server deployment making use of DragonFly. At least they listen to people who don't submit patches due to the limitations of time/skill/whatever. No, I'm not a Matt fan - I like and respect most on -core and others. I just think 5- has got... well, it's all a bit out of hand really, isn't it? The reality is that operating system development takes a lot of time, energy, and expertise. We can't pull a next generation operating system out of hats overnight -- it takes literally hundreds of man years of work to do. It's not something one, three, or even ten people can do alone. FreeBSD 5.x remains a work in progress, but has made a lot of progress in the right direction. I think what you think of as madness is a necessary step on the path of a major engineering project. I can't think of any major project I've seen where at some point, people haven't taken a pause for a breather saying Oh my god -- what have we gotten ourselves into. On the other hand, I think referring to it as madness dismisses years of hard work by a great many competent and dedicated developers. A year ago, M:N threading was extremely far from productionability -- today, it's on the cusp of being there, with higher performance and increasingly high reliability. It's almost ready for 5-STABLE. There's substantial on-going work on SMP, with a huge investment of time and energy into the network stack, VM system, VFS, process support, scheduling, etc. These are areas where the primary feedback today is going to be stability and performance, and believe me, we're listening. All the FreeBSD developers I correspond with regularly run FreeBSD 5 on their desktops, on their servers, in their appliances, etc, to make sure we keep shaking out problems. Many companies have production products based on 5.x, and their feedback (and contributions) have been valuable. We've also invested substantial efforts in areas like compiler toolchains, standards compliance, not to mention new features. 5.x is, at long last, starting to land; it will take about one more minor version number to get there, we believe, but it is in dramatically better shape than it was a year or two ago. As I said above: writing operating systems isn't a small task. Companies invest tens (hundreds) of millions of dollars writing and maintaining operating systems, and (net across developers, if you actually bill for the volunteer
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
At 20:31 06/01/2004, Mark Linimon wrote: There are hundreds of PRs still to be processed that do have patches -- in fact, on most days the backlog is getting bigger, not smaller. Speaking of which... if there's one thing which could be done to improve committer / non-committer relations, it would be to *do* something with all those PRs. The ports team is pretty good -- my maintainer updates have always been committed fairly quickly -- but I've never had a src patch committed without badgering committer(s) about my PRs. Don't misunderstand me; I think the project is heading in the right direction, and committers are doing a great job. But I think the contributions of non-committers could make FreeBSD even better, and those contributions are being largely lost or ignored. Colin Percival ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching between groups
* Bruce M Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-01-06 18:11 +]: On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:14:06AM -0500, Adil Katchi wrote: I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). newgrp(1) could be hacked to do this fairly easily. Currently it preserves supplemental group memberships. An option to discard supplementals could be added. But you shouldn't forget, you can deny access to a specific group now. This won't work any longer, when users can leave groups at will. Nicolas ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
In message: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Paul Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: : Except, when Matt Dillon did submit, he was told to back out his changes : and then lost his commit bit. This was because there was an imminent : commit due from somebody working on SMP, which still isn't finished : really. You mischaracterize the situation badly. Dillon lost his commit bit because he didn't play well with others. The deeper technical issues aren't as cut and dried as you make them sound. Dillon's contributions, while interesting in their own right, wouldn't have completed SMP. And the specific point of contention has been finished now for at least 6 months. Warner ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Who's the troll?
Rahul Siddharthan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [is Bill Huey the troll?] Does anybody seriously believe this? AFAIK, this came up in a heated discussion on IRC, where someone accused him of being the troll and he replied with a sarcastic affirmative. Some people who had previously been witnesses to or victims of his abusive behaviour on the mailing lists were only to happy to take this at face value as it provided them with an excellent excuse to have him banned from the lists. For my part, while I don't particularly like Bill Huey, I have no reason to believe that he is the troll, and a couple of good reasons to believe that he isn't: Bill has never been afraid to post inflammatory material under his own name; there are good reasons to believe the troll's claim that he is a committer, while Bill is not; and the troll appeared long before the Java funding argument through which Bill alienated himself from the community. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
I just have one comment... who gives a shit. Let this useless thread die. William Michael Grim Student, Southern Illinois University at Edwardsville Unix Network Administrator, SIUE, Computer Science dept. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: switching between groups
* Adil Katchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-01-06 17:01 -0500]: I don't follow, what do you mean? A file with mode rwr-- owned by root:group1 could be read by anyone who is not in group1. Nicolas Confusing quote: -Original Message- From: Nicolas Rachinsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 4:44 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Cc: Adil Katchi Subject: Re: switching between groups * Bruce M Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-01-06 18:11 +]: On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 11:14:06AM -0500, Adil Katchi wrote: I was just wondering if anyone has any ideas how it's possible for a user that belongs to multiple groups to somehow limit his or her own capabilities by using only one of the n groups that they belong to and be able to switch between these groups? For example, if userA belongs to groupA, groupB and groupC, can userA enter a mode that would force it to only belong to groupA (or groupB, or groupC)? UserA whould be able to switch between these groups and back to normal (ie. belong to all groups). newgrp(1) could be hacked to do this fairly easily. Currently it preserves supplemental group memberships. An option to discard supplementals could be added. But you shouldn't forget, you can deny access to a specific group now. This won't work any longer, when users can leave groups at will. Nicolas ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Power Patches
On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 06:47:13PM -0800, Nate Lawson wrote: I get a panic on my T23 due to the ATA driver not being detected so no rootvp. Same here on a Dell Latitude C640. Mark ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
Brad Knowles wrote: Define us. You sure as hell aren't speaking for me. Accepted. It came from [EMAIL PROTECTED] and therefore can only represent my own opinion. But I know a lot of people who are looking at deploying 5- who aren't just pissed off - they're *scared*. I don't think many of the developers understand this. To us (yes, I'm not speaking for Brad Knowles), FreeBSD is not a project we spend our spare time on and love and adore. Well, it is, but it's also a lot more. It defines our careers. We roll out something that isn't quite right, our jobs are finished. Right now, if somebody asks me what our roll-out strategy is for the next 18 months, I have to respond don't know, whereas the Linux guys are just laughing... don't even start me on what the Windows guys are doing to my career right now OK, so it has got personal... I accept it is not the FreeBSD development team's job to look after my career, and to date I've looked after that by myself OK, but all I'm asking is you try and at least understand where some people are coming from on this. If 5.3, when it arrives, is genuinely production ready, trust me, the drinks are on me - I will do my absolute best to get to the next BSDcon and get everybody drunk on an expense account. If it isn't, well, I'll just have to whisper I told you so quietly somewhere. If you have a set of skills that you think could be useful, please contact Mark or one of the other members of -core to find out how you might be able to contribute to the project. Mark has mailed me off-list. His tone isn't great. I probably deserve the Fuck off. Go away. I'l deal with that seperately. :-) I have the greatest respect for Matt, but he has been a serious problem for the project for a long time. His technical disagreements with other members of the project are just one relatively minor aspect of those problems. His personality has been a much bigger issue. OK, I've never run into that. Over on the DragonFly stuff, he seems pleasant enough and his ideas are innovative, strong, if sometimes... *cough*... eccentric (e.g. replacing sysinstall with an Apache server and a load of PHP...), but I'll accept I haven't seen that, and I know others have had their problems there. I did see the fall-out on these lists with the argument that caused it all to kick off about a year ago though, and I don't think others on the project dealt with him (in public at least) fairly. Again, just my opinion, I wasn't involved, don't know what happened in private. If you want to feel like this is your project, then you need to find a way to take ownership of some part. See above. Ooooh, no. That isn't what I want at all. I just want end-users to feel they have a voice. That's all. Maybe they do, and I don't see it. Maybe they don't *and that's for the good for the project* but in my opinion, it just seems odd. Please let us know how it turns out. Actually, no, I suspect 4.9 will keep me going for at least another 18 months, by which point hopefully 5- stable will be back where everybody wants it. In fairness, tonight, I was sat at a BSD User Group meeting in front of my laptop with a fresh copy of 5- and I (for one reason or another) was digging around and found a copy of the 5- roadmap article in /usr/share/doc which I hadn't read in a long time. I honestly wish I'd read that before posting my last mail to this list. An apology of sorts is due, and you may have it. Sorry. And yes, I was having a bad day, and my tone was rotten to those of you who put so much time into FreeBSD, and all I ask in future is that you realise that some points about bitrot, bloat, bad performance and a lack of *feeling* the end user gets heard is enough to cause real problems for a lot of people. -- Paul Robinson ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
At 20:31 06/01/2004, Mark Linimon wrote: There are hundreds of PRs still to be processed that do have patches -- in fact, on most days the backlog is getting bigger, not smaller. Speaking of which... if there's one thing which could be done to improve committer / non-committer relations, it would be to *do* something with all those PRs. The ports team is pretty good -- my maintainer updates have always been committed fairly quickly -- but I've never had a src patch committed without badgering committer(s) about my PRs. Don't misunderstand me; I think the project is heading in the right direction, and committers are doing a great job. But I think the contributions of non-committers could make FreeBSD even better, and those contributions are being largely lost or ignored. Exactly. I've filed PRs that have languished for months, and then after picking some random person from -current or -stable, the patches in the PR get committed within a week. I'd imagine that there's a lot of PRs that get dropped because they sit for 6+ months and then the submitter can't be found or cannot reproduce the situation. I think the problem is that too many commiters are focused on their own corner of the project, and there's nobody left to handle all the general sort of PRs. -- Matt Emmerton ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where is FreeBSD going?
On Mon, Jan 05, 2004 at 01:52:50PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: FreeBSD also keeps falling farther and farther behind Linux in the area of advocacy (and, hence, corporate adoption). Again, this is a governance issue. Many of the developers actually have an antipathy toward advocacy, since they dislike answering newbie FAQs and don't want too many people to adopt the OS for fear that it'll overcrowd their sandbox. So, some of the criticism is actually valid. Advocacy is NOT a race or a popularity contest. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: USB stack / configuration 0
On Tuesday 06 January 2004 18:47, Bernd Walter wrote: When setting a USB device to configuration number USB_UNCONFIG_NO (i.e. 0), the device goes into an unconfigured state with an invalid dev-cdesc. How does one then leave this unconfigured state and reconfigure the device to accept configuration changes? (all USB_SET_CONFIG changes are currently refused after going into configuration 0 - I'm not sure if this is the desired behaviour or a bug) I have to read the docs first bevor making a qualified comment about this. I'm not 100% sure if this applies, but.. There are certainly situations where you want to reenumerate the USB devices, for example there are a number of devices which have no real firmware - they expect to be programmed by the PC then reset and reenumerated after being plugged in. I have such a device (M-Audio Mobile Pre USB) and I have modified USB audio code which works except that you need to manually reset the device without removing power (which is done by partially removing and then reinserting the USB connector). -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: USB stack / configuration 0
On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 04:05:15PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: On Tuesday 06 January 2004 18:47, Bernd Walter wrote: When setting a USB device to configuration number USB_UNCONFIG_NO (i.e. 0), the device goes into an unconfigured state with an invalid dev-cdesc. How does one then leave this unconfigured state and reconfigure the device to accept configuration changes? (all USB_SET_CONFIG changes are currently refused after going into configuration 0 - I'm not sure if this is the desired behaviour or a bug) I have to read the docs first bevor making a qualified comment about this. I'm not 100% sure if this applies, but.. There are certainly situations where you want to reenumerate the USB devices, for example there are a number of devices which have no real firmware - they expect to be programmed by the PC then reset and reenumerated after being plugged in. Different story. I have such a device (M-Audio Mobile Pre USB) and I have modified USB audio code which works except that you need to manually reset the device without removing power (which is done by partially removing and then reinserting the USB connector). Bad device - it would have been so easy add an single transitor to do this automaticaly. Nevertheless USB_UNCONFIG_NO can't help you here. What you need to do is toggling the hub port if the device is to stupid to detach/reattach on his own. -- B.Walter BWCThttp://www.bwct.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: USB stack / configuration 0
On Wednesday 07 January 2004 16:35, Bernd Walter wrote: There are certainly situations where you want to reenumerate the USB devices, for example there are a number of devices which have no real firmware - they expect to be programmed by the PC then reset and reenumerated after being plugged in. Different story. Ahh well, I was hopeful :) I have such a device (M-Audio Mobile Pre USB) and I have modified USB audio code which works except that you need to manually reset the device without removing power (which is done by partially removing and then reinserting the USB connector). Bad device - it would have been so easy add an single transitor to do this automaticaly. Nevertheless USB_UNCONFIG_NO can't help you here. What you need to do is toggling the hub port if the device is to stupid to detach/reattach on his own. I don't think it IS a dumb device, there is a USB spec called DFU which covers it and the hosts job is to do the reenumeration. -- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from. -- Andrew Tanenbaum GPG Fingerprint - 9A8C 569F 685A D928 5140 AE4B 319B 41F4 5D17 FDD5 ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: USB stack / configuration 0
On Wed, Jan 07, 2004 at 04:44:46PM +1030, Daniel O'Connor wrote: On Wednesday 07 January 2004 16:35, Bernd Walter wrote: Bad device - it would have been so easy add an single transitor to do this automaticaly. Nevertheless USB_UNCONFIG_NO can't help you here. What you need to do is toggling the hub port if the device is to stupid to detach/reattach on his own. I don't think it IS a dumb device, there is a USB spec called DFU which covers it and the hosts job is to do the reenumeration. Sparing a transistor to offload the work to the host were its also way more complex to do is dump. If this is part of the Spec, then the spec is dump too. usbd_reset_port should do from the USB point of view, but this doesn't trigger Free BSD to do a reconfiguration of the device, which is required after reset. Maybe the following will do instead: usbd_clear_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) delay(USB_PORT_POWERUP_DELAY); usbd_set_port_feature(dev, port, UHF_PORT_ENABLE) dev and port is that from the hub. -- B.Walter BWCThttp://www.bwct.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
