Re: considering i386 as a tier 1 architecture
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk writes: > > I am NOT able to understand the merit of these products with respect > > to their features and PRICES. > > Please stop SHOUTING, and learn to accept and respect the fact that > other people have other opinions and priorities than you do, and to stop > trying to force your worldview on them. Maybe they know something you > haven't learned yet. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - d...@des.no > You are right , but my idea was in affirmative sense to understand the reasons . I know that persons are using such systems with respect to some advantages other than the cost and their producers have reasons to assign such prices in a free economic structure . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: considering i386 as a tier 1 architecture
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 2:04 AM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Wojciech Puchar writes: > > Lev Serebryakov writes: > > > It is not exact so. Some Atoms on some motherboards with some > > > firmwares are 64-bit CPU. > > don't know of any now in shops that are not > > http://soekris.com/products/net5501.html > http://soekris.com/products/net6501.html > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - d...@des.no > I am NOT able to understand the merit of these products with respect to their features and PRICES . It is possible to assemble much more cheaper full featured PC like systems ( DDR3 memory , 64-bit capable processors , with a disadvantage about power requirements ) . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: considering i386 as a tier 1 architecture
On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 3:39 AM, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk writes: > > At present, there is NO any processor which is ONLY 32-bits. > > All the world is not a PC. There are still 32-bit x86-based embedded or > small-form-factor systems, such as the soekris net5501 and net6501, > which are widely used in the BSD community. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smørgrav - d...@des.no > These are special purpose systems and they are not developed by , let's say , "ordinary" users . Therefore , their developers may maintain the existing i386 branch as a specialized branch with a freedom to tailor it to more specific needs . Since I am not a developer or user of such a system , I can not say whether 25000 packages are necessary for them or not . Reducing any amount of work load which its outcome is not directly used is a contribution to the FreeBSD project by diverting such efforts to other man power or resources required areas . When costs are considered , some times 64 bit capable systems are not so expensive : As an example : From a computer shop in Turkey with many branch shops : Memory : 1 Giga Bytes chips : From $27 + VAT to $40 + VAT 4 Giga Bytes chips : From $31 + VAT to $43 + VAT There is NO reason to buy 4 x ( 1 Giga Bytes ) , when the difference is a few dollars with 4 x ( 4 Giga Bytes ) . AMD Sempron 145 AM3 2.8GHz processor is $ 34 + VAT which is 64 bits capable . As I said above , I am not able to make knowledgeable comparisons about such systems but my opinion is that these specialized systems are not so much advantageous . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: considering i386 as a tier 1 architecture
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 9:48 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > Hi, > > I am writing this email to discuss the i386 architecture in FreeBSD. > > Computers are getting faster, but also more memory intensive. I > can not find a laptop with less than 4 or 8 GB of RAM. Modern > browsers, such as Firefox, require a 64bit architecture and 8GB of > RAM. A 32 bit platform is not enough now a days on systems with > more than 4 GB of RAM. A 32 bit core now is like 640K of RAM in > the 1990s. Even in the embedded world ARM is going 64 bit with > ARMv8. > > Secondly, the i386 port is unmaintained. Very few developers run > it, so it doesn't get the testing it deserves. Almost every user > post or bug report I see from a x86 compatible processor is running > amd64. When was the last time you booted i386 outside a virtual > machine? Often times the build works for amd64 but fails for i386. > > Finally, others are dropping support for i386. Windows Server 2008 > is 64 bit only, OSX Mountain Lion (10.8) is 64-bit only. Users > and downstream vendors no longer care about preserving ancient > hardware. > > I hope this email is enough to convince you that on this date we > should drop support for the i386 architecture for 10.0 to tier 2 > and replace it with the ARM architecture as Tier 1. > > -- > Eitan Adler > This idea is really very good . The FreeBSD Project man power , for me , is wasted to maintain a branch that it is NOT necessary to make it a first class branch . 1 Giga Bytes , and even 2 Giga Bytes memory chips are disappearing from the computer shops slowly . At present , there is NO any processor which is ONLY 32-bits . Not only the Windows Server , if I am not remembering incorrectly , new regular Windows ( desk top , etc. ) versions will drop 32 bits branches : They only supply 64 bits versions . By concentrating on 64 bits ( amd64 ) branch and work toward distributed processing and high performance computing for super or clustered computers or graphics chips ( cards ) is much more useful than working on 32 bits version . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Does any body agree ?
On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 3:03 PM, Adrian Chadd wrote: > ... you need to post a more useful/descrptive title and/or body in > your request. Most people won't look at the post. :-) > > > > Adrian > > > On 9 March 2013 14:41, ali mousa wrote: > > Does any body agree ? > http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?p=212423#post212423 ? > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Ali > > _ > Dear Adrian , You are really right , and correct . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: iSCSI vs. SMB with ZFS.
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 2:22 PM, Rick Macklem wrote: > Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote: > > Does windows 7 support nfs v4, then? Is it expected (ie: is it > > worthwhile > > trying) that nfsv4 would perform at a similar speed to iSCSI? It would > > seem that this at least requires active directory (or this user name > > mapping ... which I remember being hard). > > As far as I know, there is no NFSv4 in Windows. I only made the comment > (which I admit was a bit off topic), because the previous post had stated > "SMB or NFS, they're the same" or something like that.) > > There was work on an NFSv4 client for Windows being done by CITI at the > Univ. of Michigan funded by Microsoft research, but I have no idea if it > was ever released. > > rick > > > > > http://www.citi.umich.edu/projects/nfsv4/ Projects: NFS Version 4 Open Source Reference Implementation We are developing an implementation of NFSv4 and NFSv4.1 for Linux http://www.citi.umich.edu/projects/nfsv4/windows/ http://www.citi.umich.edu/projects/nfsv4/windows/readme.html http://www.citi.umich.edu/projects/ Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: lib for working with graphs
On Thu, Nov 29, 2012 at 7:12 AM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 28/11/2012 18:36 Mehmet Erol Sanliturk said the following: > > > > > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Andriy Gapon > <mailto:a...@freebsd.org>> wrote: > > > > on 28/11/2012 16:31 David Wolfskill said the following: > > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 04:20:28PM +0200, Andriy Gapon wrote: > > >> > > >> Does anyone know a light-weight BSD-licensed (or analogous) > library / piece of > > >> code for doing useful things with graphs? > > >> Thank you. > > >> > > > > > > Errr "graphs" is fairly ambiguous, and "things with graphs" > covers a > > > very wide range of activities. > > > > Graphs as in vertices, edges, etc :) > > And things like graph basics: BFS, DFS, connected components, > topological > > sort, etc > > > > > ports/math/R may be useful for this -- I use it to generate graphs > (and > > > perform statistical analyses). > > > > > > ports/graphics/plotmtv is possibly of some interest, as well, as it > > > allows a certain level of interactivity (though the code hasn't > been > > > updated in quite some time -- but it still works). > > > > > > If neither of those suits your intent, perhaps you could expand a > bit on > > > what that intent is? > > > > And, big oops sorry, forgot one very important detail - it has to be > C. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JUNG > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xfig > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVG-edit > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Graph_drawing_software > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_vector_graphics_editors > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_diagramming_software > > > > > > Thank you very much . > > Thank you, but all of these appear to be off-mark. > They all are end-user oriented applications for drawing/editing graphs, > etc. > While I need a light-weight library for "embedding" graph analysis. > > -- > Andriy Gapon > Graph Theory is vast subject area : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Graph_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_%28mathematics%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_graph_analysis http://www.cs.sunysb.edu/~algorith/implement/graphbase/implement.shtml If a subject with a selected title is specified , it may be possible to find more detailed information about it . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: lib for working with graphs
On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 6:37 AM, Andriy Gapon wrote: > on 28/11/2012 16:31 David Wolfskill said the following: > > On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 04:20:28PM +0200, Andriy Gapon wrote: > >> > >> Does anyone know a light-weight BSD-licensed (or analogous) library / > piece of > >> code for doing useful things with graphs? > >> Thank you. > >> > > > > Errr "graphs" is fairly ambiguous, and "things with graphs" covers a > > very wide range of activities. > > Graphs as in vertices, edges, etc :) > And things like graph basics: BFS, DFS, connected components, topological > sort, etc > > > ports/math/R may be useful for this -- I use it to generate graphs (and > > perform statistical analyses). > > > > ports/graphics/plotmtv is possibly of some interest, as well, as it > > allows a certain level of interactivity (though the code hasn't been > > updated in quite some time -- but it still works). > > > > If neither of those suits your intent, perhaps you could expand a bit on > > what that intent is? > > And, big oops sorry, forgot one very important detail - it has to be C. > > -- > Andriy Gapon > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JUNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xfig http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SVG-edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Graph_drawing_software http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_vector_graphics_editors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Free_diagramming_software Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD needs Git to ensure repo integrity [was: 2012 incident]
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 5:10 AM, C. P. Ghost wrote: > On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:47 PM, Volodymyr Kostyrko > wrote: > > 19.11.2012 14:34, Ivan Voras wrote: > >> > >> On 17/11/2012 22:48, Chris Rees wrote: > >> > >>> (and is GPL btw) > >> > >> > >> Since we're discussing it, Mercurial is BSDL-ed, and apparently has > >> proper crypto signing using GPG: > >> > >> > >> > http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/FAQ#FAQ.2FTechnicalDetails.How_do_Mercurial_hashes_get_calculated.3F > > > > > > :%s/BSD/LGP/ > > > > http://mercurial.selenic.com/about/ > > Even if it was BSD licensed, Mercurial has a huge dependency: > Python; and Git is Perl-based. So neither of them is ideal, IMHO. > If at all, we'd need a lean and mean distributed SCM program > like Mercurial or Git, but written in C that we could add to base. > Any volunteers? > > -cpghost. > > -- > Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ > http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/License http://selenic.com/hg/file/tip/COPYING http://mercurial.selenic.com/about/ "Mercurial is free software licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License Version 2 <http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.txt> or any later version." No one of them above mentions "BSD license" , or "dual license" , etc. Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk Similar projects ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD needs Git to ensure repo integrity [was: 2012 incident]
On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 4:34 AM, Ivan Voras wrote: > On 17/11/2012 22:48, Chris Rees wrote: > > > (and is GPL btw) > > Since we're discussing it, Mercurial is BSDL-ed, and apparently has > proper crypto signing using GPG: > > > http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/FAQ#FAQ.2FTechnicalDetails.How_do_Mercurial_hashes_get_calculated.3F > > > http://selenic.com/repo/hg/file/fd903f89e42b http://selenic.com/repo/hg/file/fd903f89e42b/COPYING " GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE <http://selenic.com/repo/hg/file/fd903f89e42b/COPYING#l2>Version 2, June 1991 <http://selenic.com/repo/hg/file/fd903f89e42b/COPYING#l3> " In their repository , it is GPL v2 . Is there any other place which specifies its license as BSDL ? Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD Boot Times
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Russell Cattelan wrote: > On 6/13/12 2:16 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > > In message , > Wojci > > ech Puchar writes: > > > > One of the major slowdowns is that we do all the device drivers > > serially & synchronously. > Yes definitely. > > I have been looking into how to potentially defer or parallelize > device_attach'es. Defer is turning out to be hard enough since each > system is has different requirements to reach a state where it can > run /sbin/init. I've started with the John Baldwin's multipass work > and have a system stops probing/attaching devices and allows the boot > to continue on. > > The remaining passes I'm triggering from userspace once the system is up. > > This is all very crude at this point and has been an some work just > to understand how the kernel startup code all links together. > > Note systemd looks interesting from from a demand based startup scheme > much like apples launchd. (note systemd uses linux process groups so > porting it would take some effort) > > Ideally it would be nice to get to the point where many devices are only > attached once there is a demand for it. Say network interfaces for > example: attach it once the init scripts need to config it and then > hopefully in an async fashion. Unfortunately that will require locking > a bit more fine grain than the current "Giant" lock. > > -Russell > > > > To reduce the boot time , my opinion is as follows : During install or by using a program , generate a "Hardware Profile File" . By editing it , mark some devices "No check" ( for example , a network card or PS/2 mouse or key board , is not connected , RS-232 , Firewire , unused SATA ports , unused IDE ports , etc. , then it is not necessary to check them . ) During boot , first read that "Hardware Profile File" . Only check ports marked as "Check" . After completion of boot , the other ports may checked to update "Hardware Profile File" if it is requested in "Hardware Profile File" . Later on , assume a new device is attached . Run the "Hardware Profile" program to regenerate the "Hardware Profile File" , or by using dmesg , manually add this device into "Hardware Profile File" . For removable devices , if some USB , etc. ports are not used , they all may be marked as "No Check" , for example internal USB ports , unused back panel ports . I do not know such a scheme is useful or not , or usable or not . If I were a boot manager program writer , I would try it . To my knowledge which I may be wrong , at present there is no such a facility . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Ways to promote FreeBSD?
On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 11:24 PM, wrote: > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:06 PM, wrote: > > > I'm wondering if spinning up a "live DVD" desktop version, using > > > GENERIC, and/or Gnome/KDE might be a good option to take FreeBSD > > > for a test drive ... > > > > There is such a very nice distribution : > > > > http://ghostbsd.org/ > > Also, freesbie.org > The above link is not complete . The freesbie.org is working as follows : http://www.freesbie.org/ Others : http://www.desktopbsd.net/ There are some links in the page : http://www.livebsd.org/ Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Ways to promote FreeBSD?
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 8:06 PM, wrote: > Greetings... > > On Fri, 27 Apr 2012 17:18:47 -0400 > Mehmet Erol Sanliturk wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Jerry McAllister > > wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 08:27:07PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: > > > > > > > >After using Linux for almost 15 years, I only recently started > > > > >using FreeBSD. I own an internet startup and was looking for a > > > > >solution for > > > > > > > > Those who need FreeBSD already use it. no need to promote. Or > > > > maybe need to promote bigger donations to FreeBSD community from > > > > big users. > > > > > > > > Those who actually need high performers and have servers that are > > > > loaded and are working not toying around - use FreeBSD. > > > > > > Not really true and kind of a poor attitude. > > > Yes. many people needing high performance already use FreeBSD, but > > > there are lots of services that could benefit from FreeBSD who are > > > not very aware of it. They may have heard the name, and even know > > > that it is an OS, but have heard it passed off as a non-entity in > > > the field and do not know better than that. > > > > > > Sure, if people take the time and come to the web site and then > > > download and use it and learn it, they know and don't need to > > > be told much. But, most others are not yet in that situation. > > > They might appreciate the help. Of course, some may be too > > > lazy or prejudiced to go through that, but many just need some > > > more information and encouragement I would guess. > > > > > > jerry > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My opinion is that most important obstacle in front of FreeBSD is its > > installation structure : > > > > > > It is NOT possible to install and use a FreeBSD distribution directly > > as it is . > > > > In Linux distributions , when a distribution is installed , the > > user , NOT root , > > can use its facilities WITHOUT setting a ( large ) number of > > parameters which it is approximately ZERO . > > > > > > Contrary to this , when a FreeBSD is installed , an ordinary user can > > NOT use USB , CD/DVD , etc. , and even key board / mouse in X without > > setting MANY parameters in MANY files ( loder.conf , rc.conf , etc. > > ) . > > > > This point is a very important difficulty for the beginners and a > > really very tiring for experienced users . > > > > The first thing for FreeBSD to promote its use is to be done is to > > remedy this obstacle . > > > > > > All over the years , this fact is ignored , and left as it is , with a > > counter argument that FreeBSD is for servers . > > > > If we stick into this idea indefinitely , FreeBSD user base will not > > exceed a few with respect to number of desktop users because number > > of servers with respect to number of desktop users may be considered > > very small . Such a small user base is not sufficient supply a > > "breath" to FreeBSD to make it live . > > > > > > An important example is www.wikipedia.org which I mentioned many > > times . In yearly campaigns , they are collecting more than 15 > > MILLION US dollars as donations where average donations being around > > 5 US dollars per donation . > > > > Contrary to this , www.freebsdfoundation.org has a yearly budget less > > than HALF a MILLION US dollars . > > > > If the news I read is correct , Mozilla Foundation is getting 300 > > MILLION US dollars from Google for specifying its name in its search > > bar . > > > > > > Failure point for the FreeBSD is its usage difficulty and a small > > number of user base . > > > > Another point is that server installers are highly educated with > > respect to desktop installers and their numbers are small with > > respect to desktop users . > > > > For them , it is very easy to "harden" FreeBSD after installation if > > ever it is needed , because during installation , it is a simple > > question to ask : > > > > Will this be used as a Server ? > > > > With respect to answer to this question , even during installation a > > "hardened" FreeBSD may be installed . > > > > Another , for me , irrespective , idea is to mention PC-BSD in place > > of FreeBSD . > > > > With a more than FO
Re: Ways to promote FreeBSD?
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 6:58 PM, Rick Macklem wrote: > Steven Hartland wrote: > > - Original Message - > > From: "Mehmet Erol Sanliturk" > > > > > My opinion is that most important obstacle in front of FreeBSD is > > > its > > > installation structure : > > > > > > > > > It is NOT possible to install and use a FreeBSD distribution > > > directly as it > > > is . > > > > I disagree, we find quite the opposite; FreeBSD's current install is > > perfect > > its quick, doesn't install stuff we don't need and leaves a very nice > > base. > > > > Linux on the other had takes ages, asks way to many questions, has > > issues > > with some hardware with mouse and gui not work properly making the > > install difficult to navigate, but most import its quite hard to get a > > nice simple > > base as there are so many options, which is default with FreeBSD. > > > > In essence it depends on what you want and how you use the OS. For > > the way we use FreeBSD on our servers its perfect. So if your trying > > to suggest its not suitable for all that's is incorrect as it depends > > on what > > you want :) > > > I worked for the CS dept. at a university for 30years. What I observed > was that students were usually enthusiastic about trying a new os. However, > these days, they have almost no idea how to work in a command line > environment. > > If they installed FreeBSD, it would be zapped off their disk within minutes > of the install completing and they'd forget about it. > > They install and like distros like Ubuntu, which install and work the way > they expect (yes, they expect a GUI desktop, etc). > > When they get out in industry, they remember Linux, but won't remember > FreeBSD (at least not in a good way). > > Now, I am not suggesting that FreeBSD try and generate Ubuntu-like desktop > distros. However, it might be nice if the top level web page let people > know that the installs there are not desktop systems and point them to > PC-BSD (or whatever other desktop distro there might be?) for a desktop > install. > (I know, the original poster wasn't a PC-BSD fan, but others seem happy > with it. I'll admit I've never tried it, but then, I'm not a GUI desktop > guy.:-) > > Just my $0.00 worth, rick > > > Regards > > Steve > > Absolutely I do NOT have any idea against PC-BSD . My wish is that it should be much better than its current state . My suggestion is that it needs testing before its releases especially on bare metal with new and previously installed different operating system hard disks . Installation success on a VM ( Virtual Machine ) is very misleading because a VM is an artificial environment and it is supplying some services which they are not available in a bare metal machine . FreeBSD installation and boot style are very nice . Personally I dislike very much Ubuntu-like installs ( nothing is displayed about what is going on ) and I never use it ( in spite of I am installing each release of it ) . My ideas are about "parameters set by installation" for "desktop users" , not for computing experts . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Ways to promote FreeBSD?
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 6:32 PM, Steven Hartland wrote: > - Original Message - From: "Mehmet Erol Sanliturk" > > My opinion is that most important obstacle in front of FreeBSD is its >> installation structure : >> >> >> It is NOT possible to install and use a FreeBSD distribution directly as >> it >> is . >> > > I disagree, we find quite the opposite; FreeBSD's current install is > perfect > its quick, doesn't install stuff we don't need and leaves a very nice base. > > Linux on the other had takes ages, asks way to many questions, has issues > with some hardware with mouse and gui not work properly making the > install difficult to navigate, but most import its quite hard to get a > nice simple > base as there are so many options, which is default with FreeBSD. > > In essence it depends on what you want and how you use the OS. For > the way we use FreeBSD on our servers its perfect. So if your trying > to suggest its not suitable for all that's is incorrect as it depends on > what > you want :) > > Regards > Steve > > As I mentioned in my previous messages , the new bsdinstall is a very nice and very good installer . My ideas are not about goodness of installer programs , but related to installation structure especially for desktop users . Therefore , it is not suitable to mix these concepts . I am NOT claiming that Linux is better than FreeBSD . I find such comparisons very useless . Each has its advantages and disadvantages . Some Linux distributions require much knowledge for install than FreeBSD requirements . Some distributions are very good for installation structure for desktop users ( for example , Fedora , Mandriva , Mageia , Debian , and some others ) If I repeat once more , I am talking about usage easiness after default installation of FreeBSD by ordinary ( means NOT being computing expert ) new desktop users . It is obvious that if any one attempts to install and maintain a server , it is likely that she or he is much more knowledgeable than a new user . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Ways to promote FreeBSD?
On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 4:31 PM, Jerry McAllister wrote: > On Fri, Apr 27, 2012 at 08:27:07PM +0200, Wojciech Puchar wrote: > > > >After using Linux for almost 15 years, I only recently started using > > >FreeBSD. I own an internet startup and was looking for a solution for > > > > Those who need FreeBSD already use it. no need to promote. Or maybe need > > to promote bigger donations to FreeBSD community from big users. > > > > Those who actually need high performers and have servers that are loaded > > and are working not toying around - use FreeBSD. > > Not really true and kind of a poor attitude. > Yes. many people needing high performance already use FreeBSD, but > there are lots of services that could benefit from FreeBSD who are > not very aware of it. They may have heard the name, and even know > that it is an OS, but have heard it passed off as a non-entity in > the field and do not know better than that. > > Sure, if people take the time and come to the web site and then > download and use it and learn it, they know and don't need to > be told much. But, most others are not yet in that situation. > They might appreciate the help. Of course, some may be too > lazy or prejudiced to go through that, but many just need some > more information and encouragement I would guess. > > jerry > > > My opinion is that most important obstacle in front of FreeBSD is its installation structure : It is NOT possible to install and use a FreeBSD distribution directly as it is . In Linux distributions , when a distribution is installed , the user , NOT root , can use its facilities WITHOUT setting a ( large ) number of parameters which it is approximately ZERO . Contrary to this , when a FreeBSD is installed , an ordinary user can NOT use USB , CD/DVD , etc. , and even key board / mouse in X without setting MANY parameters in MANY files ( loder.conf , rc.conf , etc. ) . This point is a very important difficulty for the beginners and a really very tiring for experienced users . The first thing for FreeBSD to promote its use is to be done is to remedy this obstacle . All over the years , this fact is ignored , and left as it is , with a counter argument that FreeBSD is for servers . If we stick into this idea indefinitely , FreeBSD user base will not exceed a few with respect to number of desktop users because number of servers with respect to number of desktop users may be considered very small . Such a small user base is not sufficient supply a "breath" to FreeBSD to make it live . An important example is www.wikipedia.org which I mentioned many times . In yearly campaigns , they are collecting more than 15 MILLION US dollars as donations where average donations being around 5 US dollars per donation . Contrary to this , www.freebsdfoundation.org has a yearly budget less than HALF a MILLION US dollars . If the news I read is correct , Mozilla Foundation is getting 300 MILLION US dollars from Google for specifying its name in its search bar . Failure point for the FreeBSD is its usage difficulty and a small number of user base . Another point is that server installers are highly educated with respect to desktop installers and their numbers are small with respect to desktop users . For them , it is very easy to "harden" FreeBSD after installation if ever it is needed , because during installation , it is a simple question to ask : Will this be used as a Server ? With respect to answer to this question , even during installation a "hardened" FreeBSD may be installed . Another , for me , irrespective , idea is to mention PC-BSD in place of FreeBSD . With a more than FORTY years of computing experience , my idea about PC-BSD is that it is "complete failure" and mentioning it in front of FreeBSD is only to create another obstacle for it . Trouble for PC-BSD is that , for me , it is an untested ( as even as a simple installation on a bare hardware ) distribution . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: 8 to 9: Kernel modularization -- did it change?
On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 9:14 AM, Alexander Leidinger < alexan...@leidinger.net> wrote: > Quoting per...@pluto.rain.com (from Sun, 19 Feb 2012 08:13:48 -0800): > > Doug Barton wrote: >> >>> On 02/18/2012 10:43, per...@pluto.rain.com wrote: >>> > Doug Barton wrote: >>> >> loading modules through loader.conf is >>> >> veeryy slooww ... >>> > >>> > Is it noticeably slower to load (say) a 6MB kernel + 2MB of >>> > modules than to load an 8MB kernel? >>> >>> I don't know, that wasn't the problem I was trying to solve. >>> >> >> Given the context of the thread, this: >> >> >> loading modules through loader.conf is >>> >> veeryy slooww ... >>> >> >> seemed to be an objection to modularizing the kernel. Hence my >> > > Looks more like an opinion. In fact, I work on a modularized kernel config > which I want to commit to -current at some point (for those which do not > care how long it takes to boot the system). > > The goal of my work is to produce something like GENERIC+more, just as > much as possible loaded as kld's (the "+more" part is the result of a poll > I did on stable@, it contains only stuff which can not be loaded as a > kld, and I provide a loader.conf which disables the parts which would cause > a major change in behavior). Currently I'm doing some compile testing, I > should be able to provide something for review soon (on current@). > > Bye, > Alexander. > > -- > WORK: >The blessed respite from screaming kids and >soap operas for which you actually get paid. > > http://www.Leidinger.netAlexander @ Leidinger.net: PGP ID = B0063FE7 > http://www.FreeBSD.org netchild @ FreeBSD.org : PGP ID = 72077137 > > I think , inclusion of a scheduler ( 4BSD , ULE , etc. ) selection facility into loader.conf will be a useful improvement , because it seems that schedulers are not equivalent . In that way , it will be possible to select a scheduler for compute intensive processing , or input/output intensive processing , or user interaction intensive processing . My choice would be to have options in boot menu as a best approach . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD is becoming ... by, and for, FreeBSD developers - clarification
lity of failure . I think , PC-BSD requires more testing on real hardware . It seems that , before releases , even it is not installed a single time on a bare metal computer ( opinion developed form existing installations ) . Saying "Whatever is suitable for you , use it" is NOT a solution . There is big amount of very high quality effort invested into FreeBSD , but it is unusable by a wide population due to user interface settings . I am NOT blaming the developers because such efforts to improve user interface requires experiments , researches , and EXPENSES . It is NOT a right and fair policy to expect such activities from developers . They are doing what they can do in a best way . There is a necessity to support their activities from the point on where they need help . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: performance of fork() syscalls
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Eitan Adler wrote: > Sorry for the delayed reply. > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 7:00 AM, Daniil Cherednik > wrote: > > Hello. > > I have some questions about performance fork syscall. > > Great! > > > Result in FreeBSD (8.2, amd62): > > > > real 0m2.010s > > user 0m0.053s > > sys 0m1.946s > > > > Result in Linux (2.6.32-5-amd64): > > > > real 0m1.210s > > user 0m0.008s > > sys 0m1.200s > > > > > Does this mean performance of fork() in Linux is better? > No. It may be true that Linux's fork is faster than ours, but these > numbers don't show that. > > >From my own (albeit limited) knowledge the numbers you gave above are > statistically meaningless. You have one iteration of the sum of using > time(1) on one machine 1 times. > This data can only provide the average of a single test case with many > possible causes for the slowness. > > Additionally, time(1) includes time spent in system calls, running > other programs, processing interrupts, etc. "sys" is a lie, as not > every context switch is tracked for performance reasons. Use > getrusage() instead. > > In order to have a meaningful comparison you would need to > a) Run the results under the Student's T test to see if there is a > significant different at p=95%. > b) Do the benchmarks on a machine running nearly nothing else. Run > your tests on Single User Mode, disable all services, remove the > computer from the network, mount the disks read-only, etc. Without > doing this there is too much noise, and it isn't possible to determine > what is causing the slow down (if there is any difference at all, see > part a) > > I understand that the numbers look bad, and that this is a lot of work > to do to see if there is a difference, but benchmarking is a > non-trivial exercise :) > > If I'm wrong here, please correct me. I am always open to learning new > things. > > > > And can you explain why? > > See above ;) > > > -- > Eitan Adler > You may design an experiment like that : Take more than 15 FreeBSD ( the same operating system ) running computers with the same window manager . The computers need not to be similar . Take at least 60 ( to obtain a good Normal distribution approximation with respect to Central Limit Theorem ) Linux computers ( the same kernel , but different Linux distributions ) . Apply the same fork statement and measure the execution time . Apply the Student t test to check equality of means after applying a test of equality of variances . If the fork time means are different statistically , smaller mean fork time is better than the other ( FreeBSD versus Linux ) . If the variances are different , the systems are different . Smaller variance is better than the other . The computers need not to be similar . Thank you very much Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 2:53 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
> On May 14, 2011, at 8:14 AM, Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <
> m.e.sanlit...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 3:15 AM, Michael Reifenberger <
> m...@reifenberger.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> this looks very promising!
>>
>> While you are working on the loader front currently,
>> would it be possible to implement a "Boot kernel.old"
>> menue item that unloads all current loaded modules and re-loads
>> everithing from /boot/kernel.old?
>>
>> Its difficult to handle manually in the loader (esp. handling the
>> zpool.cache file ) and I got bitten by this issue recently in a ZFS only
>> environment.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> Bye/2
>> ---
>> Michael Reifenberger
>> mich...@reifenberger.com
>> <http://www.Reifenberger.com>http://www.Reifenberger.com
>>
>>
>
> There have been suggestions from many regarding "kernel selection" and even
> "root selection" options. I've responded in earnest on at least one such
> suggestion (stating that there are plans to incorporate these features at
> some later date), though I have been short on details (compared to my normal
> verbosity).
>
> These suggestions will have to be slated for a different commit and cannot
> make it into the initial one. A subset of the technical reasons are
> enumerated below:
>
> 1. Currently, the "start" FICL word provided by
> /usr/src/sys/boot/forth/loader.4th -- which reads in
> /boot/defaults/loader.conf and later /boot/loader.conf (if it exists), among
> other things -- pre-loads the configured kernel.
>
> This would need to change. We still want to call "start" from the onset of
> /boot/loader.rc to pick up any variables configured in loader.conf(5), but
> we don't want to load the kernel yet (though modules may be OK). I would
> change the overloaded "boot" word to load the kernel prior to calling the
> built-in boot ( N -- ) construct.
>
> 2. A non-trivial amount of Forth will need to be written to probe for a
> list of kernels to be presented.
>
> Again, that is just a subset of the technical affronts we'll face. I'd like
> to see this functionality pushed to a later SVN rev -- perhaps after MFC of
> the current rev planned for the current state.
>
>
> Many of the Unix/Linux operating systems are utilizing a Kernel Selection (
> let's call it Selection instead of Loader ) menu , such as GRUB or LILO , or
> ,
> in FreeBSD , when Kernel Selection menu is selected instead of booting
> directly from boot sector .
>
> Actually , a Kernel Selection menu in front of the Boot Loader menu is a
> more flexible method :
> First select kernel , then select its booting structure with the above
> described Boot Loader menu .
>
>
> My opinion is that , they should NOT be COMBINED into one single menu ,
> because , in the same system , even there may be other kernels to be booted
> .
>
>
> This would be technically simple to achieve but I'm wondering if the
> community would tolerate having a 2x 10-second timeout (one for kernel
> selection menu, and another for the boot/option menu). Then, if later a
> root-selection is provided, would that go into the kernel selection menu or
> a new menu (now requiring 30-seconds to boot without a human present).
>
> I want the menu with the "Boot" option to be front-and-center, continuing
> to allow the user to boot immediately with a single key ('1', 'b', or
> ENTER) if present (and desired), or if not present boot after a single
> 10-second timeout.
>
> ASIDE: There are more boot toggles/variables mentioned in loader(8) than
> are knobs in the boot menu (both old and new -- and more than can fit on a
> single screen even). Such as boot_ddb, boot_gdb, boot_multicons, boot_mute,
> boot_pause, boot_serial, and comconsole_speed. That's 7 additional options
> that would likely be a good candidate for a "side menu" (perhaps a "More
> Options" menuitem off the main menu).
>
> ASIDE: A root-selection menuitem could potentially present the normal root
> in addition to "ask", "cdrom" and "embedded". Each of which would set
> (respectively) "boot_askname", "boot_cdrom" and "boot_dfltroot". See
> loader(8) for additional details.
>
>
> Some operating systems , such as OpenSolaris and Mandriva Linux , after
> updating the kernel , they are keeping previous kernel in the Kernel
> Selection menu , under the new kernel name item .
>
>
> I've often felt that this could be improve
Re: [RELEASE] New Boot-Loader Menu -- version 1.5
On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 3:15 AM, Michael Reifenberger wrote: > Hi, > this looks very promising! > > While you are working on the loader front currently, > would it be possible to implement a "Boot kernel.old" > menue item that unloads all current loaded modules and re-loads > everithing from /boot/kernel.old? > > Its difficult to handle manually in the loader (esp. handling the > zpool.cache file ) and I got bitten by this issue recently in a ZFS only > environment. > > Thanks in advance! > > Bye/2 > --- > Michael Reifenberger > mich...@reifenberger.com > http://www.Reifenberger.com > > Many of the Unix/Linux operating systems are utilizing a Kernel Selection ( let's call it Selection instead of Loader ) menu , such as GRUB or LILO , or , in FreeBSD , when Kernel Selection menu is selected instead of booting directly from boot sector . Actually , a Kernel Selection menu in front of the Boot Loader menu is a more flexible method : First select kernel , then select its booting structure with the above described Boot Loader menu . My opinion is that , they should NOT be COMBINED into one single menu , because , in the same system , even there may be other kernels to be booted . Some operating systems , such as OpenSolaris and Mandriva Linux , after updating the kernel , they are keeping previous kernel in the Kernel Selection menu , under the new kernel name item . Such a system may be employed for the FreeBSD : If a kernel.old is generated , it may be inserted into Kernel Selection menu automatically . If , at present , there is no kernel selection menu but boot sector is used directly , kernel build system may modify that structure also to utilize a Kernel Selection menu . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: looking for error codes
acility to allow to use an external file system usage for continuous usability . I have learned the presence of Puppy Linux from mails : http://puppylinux.org/main/Overview%20and%20Getting%20Started.htm The Puppy Linux has a WONDERFUL Live CD facility : It uses a ram disk during its working . At the end of the session , when a shutdown is requested it is asking to user whether the session will be saved or not . If the Puppy Linux is recorded onto a DVD and writing to DVD is NOT closed , it is possible to burn session data incrementally onto DVD up to a closing of writing . In that way , it is possible to customize working of the Live DVD/CD incrementally . By using such a facility , it is possible to rearrange a physically secure operating system : (1) Install the operating system . Boot it and set its parameters . Write those parameters to its configuration files and close it . Use a DVD-ROM ( not DVD Re-Write ) drive for absolute protection . If speed is important and there is no DVD-ROM , use a SDHC card : (2) Protect it by its write protect switch in SDHC cards after installation and setting parameters . For subsequent usages , use other external drives for data processing ( read - write ) only without any possibility of loading any executable from them . When it is necessary to perform a secure operation , just boot the computer to clean the possible memory invasion of malicious software . For the upgrades : Use a sterile computer ( as not connected to external sources to prevent from possible pollution ) , prepare an upgraded version , write-protect it , insert it into production computer which is exposed to external world by replacing the older version part. By separating directories into distinct drives , it is possible to upgrade only a required part as write protected : .../user_definitions : Important for installations which have a large number of users such as schools , and companies with a large number of employees or users of the computer ( server ) . .../packages : .../configurations : .../operating_system : .../boot_manager : The following parts may be assigned to modifiable drives : /home /var /tmp /swap and possible others . As a summary : It is necessary to have - A new partition structure with ability to assigning parts to distinct drives referenced by names , - Distinction between read-only and modifiable parts where they are assignable to physically different drives referenced by names , ( not by physically encoded drive numbers with respect to attached slot of the computer ) - and other related modifications not mentioned here or not recognized at present by me . I am sorry to present an off-topic subject into this thread , but to obtain such a facility , it is necessary to be able to detect structure of drives and use that structure appropriately . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: New Boot-Loader
On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 1:22 AM, Devin Teske wrote:
>
> On Mar 27, 2011, at 9:53 PM, Super Bisquit wrote:
>
> > And what if I need to boot into single user mode?
>
> I'll forgive the top-post, and I'll even forgive that you missed the below
> "NOTE: The final release will have a single-user mode option."
>
> Here it is with single-user mode option: twitpic.com/4e6gu1
> --
> Devin
>
>
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 12:48 AM, Devin Teske wrote:
> > Hi fellow hackers,
> >
> > I'm designing an open-sourced replacement boot-loader for FreeBSD. I feel
> that the existing options in the boot-loader menu today can be whittled down
> significantly with a stateful menu system rather than a single-action item
> menu system.
> >
> > In designing the new menu, I'd like to get your opinions. From old:
> >
> >FreeBSD 8.1-RELEASE: twitpic.com/4e485w
> >
> > to new:
> >
> >Replacement Boot-Loader: twitpic.com/4e46ol
> >
> > NOTE: The final release will have a single-user mode option.
> >
> > The new menu allows for more flexibility as selecting options 2 ("Boot
> Verbose") or 3 ("ACPI Support") independently toggles the status, updates
> the menu item, and redisplays the menu -- ever-waiting until the user
> ultimately presses ENTER, "1", or escapes to the prompt and types "boot".
> Thus, one could potentially launch single-user mode with verbosity on and
> ACPI disabled (if one so desired).
> >
>
...
New menu is really good .
One feature ( which is important for response ability ) is to increase down
counter starting from at least 255 as default .
This will not change anything toward bad because a few seconds later a
prompt will appear and the computer will start to wait user response for
logging . If the user will use an automatic login , it is obvious that
he/she is knowing how to modify that counter to satisfy his/her needs .
Instead of considering exceptions , please consider generally less
experienced to modify that counter and/or having obstacles to respond
immediately .
Personally mostly I am becoming able to boot such menus after a few hard
resets of power of the computer .
My personal attitude toward this counter is a strong hate . After every
operating system install , the first task I am doing is to disable that
counter completely or increase it to at least 1000 .
Default boot mode is not always the best and please assume that every one
will not be able to respond immediately due to so many possibilities of
reasons to cause a late response .
Thank you very much .
Mehmet Erol Sanliturk
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