Re: A novel idea....
> Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 01:40:38 -0700 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > 20) Multi-staged booting. You don't need to change your MBR when you > install a new kernel (or want to roll back to a different kernel). I > think I've only been stuck high and dry w/o a bootable system twice in > four years and well over 400+ servers. With Linux, you're SOL if you screw up LILO. With FreeBSD, leaving the MBR alone gives a much safer boot procedure. Not only that, but with the console on a serial port _before_ running the kernel... Eddy --- Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. EverQuick Internet / EternalCommerce Division Phone: (316) 794-8922 --- To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: Should I switch? [was Re: A novel idea....]
> > 7. FreeBSD is developed very rapidly. Especially if you subscribe to > mailing lists, you can see bugs fixed almost as soon as they are > mentioned. New features are added more conservatively, however. New > stuff is tried out in -CURRENT, where the heavy-duty FreeBSD hackers > make it stable, then merge it into -STABLE. The reason Linux became more > popular than FreeBSD is, as I've read: Linux development is > helter-skelter--anybody can make changes to the system and redistribute > them with ease. As a consequence, a wide range of people worked to > develop the components on your Debian system. This distribution and > encouragement led to confusion, but also popularity. FreeBSD, on the > other hand, is maintained by a fixed group of committers. While you can > still modify your system, it is more difficult to get random changes > into the main code tree. The result is a more structured and sane > development process, with an emphasis on stability rather than untested > additions. While it's true anyone can make changes to Linux and redistribute them with ease, I don't see how it's a point of difference. What prevents me from taking a bit of BSD, changing it and distributing it how I will? Actually getting a change into a distribution of Linux requires convincing a Responsible Person that it's a good idea, and that Responsible Person is going to take care either because his job may be on the line if he gets it wrong, or it's his pet part of the overall Scheme of Things and he really truly cares about it. In that regard, I don't see that FreeBSD is a lot different from a distribution. Remember too that a good deal of the software on BSD is the same as is on linux. -- Cheers John Summerfield http://www2.ami.com.au/ for OS/2 & linux information. Configuration, networking, combined IBM ftpsites index. Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/ Note: mail delivered to me is deemed to be intended for me, for my disposition. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
RE: A novel idea....
Dear Andrew, > > 18) Ports. 'ya can't forget them. > More importantly, ports that are going to work on all free BSD's. If you haven't been keeping track of Open Packages, those guys have put the pedal to the metal. > > Just my ramblings. I don't evangelize much, but it strikes me > as odd that some of this info isn't on the homepage of > FreeBSD. FWIW -sc > I think that's part of the "try it, and see for yourself" mentality. If you like FreeBSD, you use it, and you don't need FreeBSD evangelism. If you don't like FreeBSD, you go away and you don't need FreeBSD evangelism. Kees Jan You are only young once, but you can stay immature all your life. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: A novel idea....
> 8) For a firewall, ipfw blows the doors off of Linux's > iptables/ipchains/ipmasq/whatever. > > If you want a stateful firewall, look at ipf (also very very > very very very nice!!!) I'm waiting for ipf to get bridging support FreeBSD's ipfw is stafeful as well, and there are no plans (at least not from me!) to get bridging support in ipfilter cheers luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: A novel idea....
Read #1, but skip the rest, it's opinion. BSD license, right? Without disagreeing with any of the previous points, let me step into evangelism mode here and borrow/add my own comments. Please take replies to the evangelism list, however (maybe post a variant of this on FreeBSD.org someplace). > In short, these are the reasons I prefer FreeBSD: 1) The file system is so much better than any Linux file system, ReiserFS included. Question: Is UFS a balanced btree? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. In either case, UFS is by far and away superior to ext[\d]. Check out soft-updates if you really want to be impressed. 2) The system isn't made by idiots. This is opinion. There are some bright people in the Linux crowd, but there are also some "hackers" that hack kludges instead of elegantly solving the problem. I've found, in my experience, that the FreeBSD development team seems to search out the elegant/correct solution as opposed to the quick solution. Idiots may be going a bit far and the start of a flame war (please avoid this, or let me know if you want a list for flames and I'll set one up, but please not here!). 3) The system's development is controlled, and the system is consistent because of that. This is one of the great benefits of a central development model/system. 4) FreeBSD never trashed my data. I 2nd this. I've lost many a GB of data to ext2 or other Linux FS's. UFS has been a rock for many years and many many many many servers, and a long time ago in a galaxy far far away, I think I heard a rumor of lost data... but that was the HD spindle coming loose and shredding the platter (ie, not something the file system could do much about). 7) I hate RMS with a passion (remember, he's the Communist hypocrite who claims his software is Free). I shouldn't comment, so I won't. ::grin:: 8) For a firewall, ipfw blows the doors off of Linux's iptables/ipchains/ipmasq/whatever. If you want a stateful firewall, look at ipf (also very very very very very nice!!!) I'm waiting for ipf to get bridging support in the kernel, then you'd have a firewall that would surpass any of your wildest dreams (no MAC addresses on the Ethernet cards, while retaining ipf stateful filtering). 9) I prefer the file system hierarchy. Designed extremely well... try an upgrade with cvsup, make world, and mergemaster: you'll never want to administer anything else ever again (except possibly AIX, but that maybe hardware envy on my part). 10) Bug fixes and development happen much quicker. See tonight and the ntpd bug. The patch was submitted before, or less than one hour after it hit bugtraq. 11) None of those shitty SVR4 bootscripts and symlinks; no abundance of pointless runlevels. rc scripts are centralized and convenient, but this is largely SA opinion. RC scripts are extremely easy to update, tweak, IMHO. 13) The FreeBSD base system behaves better than any Linux base system (e.g., the stuff in /usr/bin and /bin). Agreed, and it runs very well on old klunker systems are great w/ FreeBSD (P100's make great bridge firewalls). A new Linux install, on the other hand, is typically a monolithic beast that's rather large (disk and ram). 15) Development is more conservative (e.g., I don't see a bunch of EXPERIMENTAL warnings in /sys/i386/conf/LINT, like I do in Linux kernels). If you want bleeding, on the other hand, check out -CURRENT, which gets messages every now and then that run along the lines of "I'm going to break such and such for a few hours while I apply some patches, hold on." At the same time... I have yet to have a problem with a morning compile of -CURRENT (I know, I'm lucky). 16) FreeBSD is lighter than Linux. I'll leave this in. See #13. 18) Ports. 'ya can't forget them. 19) Kernel configs are cake 20) Multi-staged booting. You don't need to change your MBR when you install a new kernel (or want to roll back to a different kernel). I think I've only been stuck high and dry w/o a bootable system twice in four years and well over 400+ servers. Just my ramblings. I don't evangelize much, but it strikes me as odd that some of this info isn't on the homepage of FreeBSD. FWIW -sc -- Sean Chittenden PGP signature
Re: Should I switch? [was Re: A novel idea....]
On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:46:01PM -0700, Jason Victor wrote: > Wow, thanks alot for all your advice. I just have a > couple (read: 412) questions about switching to > FreeBSD (if I should do it.) Please keep in mind that > I am a hobbyist developer, but am looking to get > better. > > 1. Can I work on the GNOME project under FreeBSD? Does > anyone have Ximian GNOME running? GNOME definitely works, and Ximian should compile. > 2. Is the FreeBSD project smaller than Debian's? Does > that mean that a certain individual has more or less > projects to choose from? Do you guys need lots of > help? I'd say they're about the same size. > 3. Can I compile apps in GTK/GNOME? I don't think gcc > works in FreeBSD... GCC definitely works under FreeBSD. You can compile GTK/GNOME apps. > 4. Can I get involved in the part of FreeBSD involving > moving it to the home/desktop market? Competing with > Linux? Yes, you can. I wouldn't say it competes with Linux, though. Yes, they fill a similar niche. But, there is also room for both. > 5. How close is FreeBSD to Linux? They are both Unix. You've got the same shell, utilities, X, and other programs (GNOME, Netscape, XMMS, etc.) However, they are developed in slightly different ways. Linux is developed by users submitting patches to the kernel. Each distro produces and manages packages differently. FreeBSD is developed by users submitting patches to both the kernel and the system, as well as by a group of people who are "committers". These people have direct access to change the central FreeBSD source repositories. They are directed by a "core" team. Since the system and kernel are developed by the same group under the same "jurisdiction" as one could say, some people think that this makes a better integrated system. Some think it has "less give" and that the less explicitly controlled kernel/distro setup under Linux is beneficial. It's really up to you. The major difference in setting up and administering FreeBSD vs. Linux is in the package management. The FreeBSD ports and packages provide the same functionality as apt, dpkg, or rpm, but in a different style. Also, system upgrades are generally accomplished by "building world", which is to say re-compiling the entire system and the kernel. > 6. Is there any logo cooler than the Daemon? Not in my oppinion ;). > 7. Why isn't FreeBSD more popular than Linux? You say > it is so much better!!! How quickly is FreeBSD > developing? The easier question first: FreeBSD is developing rather quickly. Improvements are being made to the kernel SMP infrastructure, the repertoire of supported devices, the file system, IPv6/IPsec integration, and the VM system in much the same way that Linux is being devloped in those areas. Why one is more popular is harder to answer; I really can't. > 8. Can I work on an apt-get for FreeBSD? Does one > exist? The FreeBSD ports collection provides very similar functionality to apt. Package dependencies, automatic downloads of programs from mirrors, easy updates to the package listings, etc. are all things that apt and the ports have in common. If you want to work on FreeBSD's package management systems, contributions would of course be considered. However, a direct port of apt is probably not going to happen. > 9. Can FreeBSD run ALL Linux apps (including source > tarballs as well as binary installs like > StarOffice's?) This is a qualified yes. FreeBSD can run StarOffice, and any other Linux executable on two conditions. Sometimes new system calls (such as clone()) are added to Linux, and the FreeBSD Linux ABI (Application Binary Interface) lags in catching up. Also, you must have Linux versions of any shared libraries for a Linux binary. > 10. Which is a better development/home user > environment? Honestly. Does Glade work? I honestly think they're equivalent. Glade, GNOME, KDE, etc. are exactly the same. My desktop runs FreeBSD, my laptop Debian. I'm happy with both. > 11. How steep will the learning curve be for a Linux > user? Not very steep. The concepts are all the same; the specifics will take some learning, and real familiarity can only be had with experience. > 12. What are the reasons big companies like Yahoo! are > using FreeBSD over Linux. The reasons generally given are reliability, a better TCP/IP stack, and better performance under high load. > 13. Does anyone think FreeBSD will be popular enough > to compete with Linux? Windows? FreeBSD competes with Linux in that they are often used for the same things. FreeBSD will not push Linux out of the server market, but then again Linux will not push FreeBSD out either. They coexist relatively peacefully. As for Windows, I think that Linux has a large popularity edge in terms of potential desktop users. Nothing is "beating" windows right now, and I think FreeBSD is developed more for reliability and pe
Re: Should I switch? [was Re: A novel idea....]
On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:46:01PM -0700, Jason Victor wrote: > Wow, thanks alot for all your advice. I just have a > couple (read: 412) questions about switching to > FreeBSD (if I should do it.) Please keep in mind that > I am a hobbyist developer, but am looking to get > better. > > 1. Can I work on the GNOME project under FreeBSD? Does > anyone have Ximian GNOME running? > 2. Is the FreeBSD project smaller than Debian's? Does > that mean that a certain individual has more or less > projects to choose from? Do you guys need lots of > help? > 3. Can I compile apps in GTK/GNOME? I don't think gcc > works in FreeBSD... > 4. Can I get involved in the part of FreeBSD involving > moving it to the home/desktop market? Competing with > Linux? > 5. How close is FreeBSD to Linux? > 6. Is there any logo cooler than the Daemon? > 7. Why isn't FreeBSD more popular than Linux? You say > it is so much better!!! How quickly is FreeBSD > developing? > 8. Can I work on an apt-get for FreeBSD? Does one > exist? > 9. Can FreeBSD run ALL Linux apps (including source > tarballs as well as binary installs like > StarOffice's?) > 10. Which is a better development/home user > environment? Honestly. Does Glade work? > 11. How steep will the learning curve be for a Linux > user? > 12. What are the reasons big companies like Yahoo! are > using FreeBSD over Linux. > 13. Does anyone think FreeBSD will be popular enough > to compete with Linux? Windows? > > Thanks alot to anyone who can answer any of these > questions!!! > --Jason 1. GNOME is in the ports, 1.2.. Recently, GNOME announced official support for FreeBSD, which means the GNOME packages won't be released until they are guaranteed to run on FreeBSD. If you want 1.2, get it from the ports, if you want 1.4, grab the tarballs from GNOME themselves. 2. I'm not sure about the size of the Debian project. If I'm not mistaken, there are a couple hundred CVS committers for FreeBSD, who are regulated by 9 (now elected) core members. Each committer has full access to the entire FreeBSD repository. If you have patches to submit, you can give them to a committer. In the ports tree, each port is maintained by a certain individual. `3. GCC is the default compiler for FreeBSD. The current included version is 2.95.2, 2.95.3 should be out in a while (it needs to be certified as stable enough for FreeBSD -STABLE). Everything I've ever built on my system has been built with GCC. 4. You can do anything you want to get FreeBSD on the desktop, although I don't think the mentality is the same here. My impression, and certainly my opinion, is that it doesn't matter one bit whether or not FreeBSD is on every desktop. I use it for my 17+ reasons; I don't care who else uses it. Linux seems to be fighting a market-share war for religious purposes. Still, because the license FreeBSD is distributed under is so free (much more so than the GPL), you can even close up everything, add propriety code, and sell packaged FreeBSD for $1k per box. Basically, you do what you want with it. 5. Did you ever play Marble Madness for Nintendo? Remember the final stage? The message on the screen was "Everything you know is wrong." FreeBSD is like that level... things will seem backwards, almost counterintuitive. That's because you've wrapped your brain around the Linux way of doing things (often an ass-backwards way, too). Give it a few days of patient work, you'll get used to everything. Essentially, this involves relearning the device names, and figuring out where your favorite Linux programs are now located. Other things, like compiling new kernels, updating your system, and configuring the bootscripts, will need to be learned, too, but they aren't essential to getting a running test system going. 6. Does there need to be? I personally think the Daemon is a bad-ass logo, much cooler than a penguin. I mean, what the fuck is a penguin good for, anyway? 7. FreeBSD is developed very rapidly. Especially if you subscribe to mailing lists, you can see bugs fixed almost as soon as they are mentioned. New features are added more conservatively, however. New stuff is tried out in -CURRENT, where the heavy-duty FreeBSD hackers make it stable, then merge it into -STABLE. The reason Linux became more popular than FreeBSD is, as I've read: Linux development is helter-skelter--anybody can make changes to the system and redistribute them with ease. As a consequence, a wide range of people worked to develop the components on your Debian system. This distribution and encouragement led to confusion, but also popularity. FreeBSD, on the other hand, is maintained by a fixed group of committers. While you can still modify your system, it is more difficult to get random changes into the main code tree. The result is a more structured and sane development process, with an emphasis on stability rather than untested additions. 8. No you cannot. The analagous process in FreeBSD is to locate the program you wish to install in the port
Should I switch? [was Re: A novel idea....]
Wow, thanks alot for all your advice. I just have a couple (read: 412) questions about switching to FreeBSD (if I should do it.) Please keep in mind that I am a hobbyist developer, but am looking to get better. 1. Can I work on the GNOME project under FreeBSD? Does anyone have Ximian GNOME running? 2. Is the FreeBSD project smaller than Debian's? Does that mean that a certain individual has more or less projects to choose from? Do you guys need lots of help? 3. Can I compile apps in GTK/GNOME? I don't think gcc works in FreeBSD... 4. Can I get involved in the part of FreeBSD involving moving it to the home/desktop market? Competing with Linux? 5. How close is FreeBSD to Linux? 6. Is there any logo cooler than the Daemon? 7. Why isn't FreeBSD more popular than Linux? You say it is so much better!!! How quickly is FreeBSD developing? 8. Can I work on an apt-get for FreeBSD? Does one exist? 9. Can FreeBSD run ALL Linux apps (including source tarballs as well as binary installs like StarOffice's?) 10. Which is a better development/home user environment? Honestly. Does Glade work? 11. How steep will the learning curve be for a Linux user? 12. What are the reasons big companies like Yahoo! are using FreeBSD over Linux. 13. Does anyone think FreeBSD will be popular enough to compete with Linux? Windows? Thanks alot to anyone who can answer any of these questions!!! --Jason --- Andrew Hesford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:16:02AM -0700, Jason > Victor wrote: > > Hi. I have to have Windows on my computer, and > will > > NOT spoil my perfectly tweaked Debian > installation. > > What I was wondering was: is there a UMSDOS of > Phat > > Linux-type thing for FreeBSD? I think this would > be an > > interesting project to undertake. If there isn't > one, > > and anyone wants to start it, tell me what a > > (relatively) newbie C programmer can do. I think > it > > would increase migration to FreeBSD from Windows, > as > > opposed to ONLY Linux. > > > > And something completely unrelated: do FreeBSD > > drivers/HOWTOs work on OpenBSD and NetBSD? And > what > > are the REAL reasons that you guys prefer FreeBSD > to > > Linux? > > > > Thanks, > > Jason > > If you ask me, playing around with FreeBSD is sort > of pointless unless > you're prepared to trash your Debian install. If > you're fully content > with Debian, why bother learning something new? > There should be an > incentive to switch, or at least no vested interest > in losing what you > have. > > I too came from Debian, and was looking for better > performance, more > stability, and a real UNIX. I was willing to switch > because I had > nothing to lose by trashing Debian, so I just > jockeyed partitions > around. Eventually, I grabbed a copy of GNU Parted, > to begin resizing > partitions and such. This is what REALLY made me > want to switch. Because > of lousy program design, the GNU tools (fdisk and > parted, namely) > trashed my disk. Had intelligent beings created the > software, I would > never have had to re-rip 3G of MP3s, and lose > another 800M of MP3s > altogether. > > The problem was twofold: first, GNU parted > dynamically reassigns > partition labels when deleting partitions. For > example, if I want to > delete partitions 5, 6, 7 and 8 but keep partition 9 > on hda, it expects > me to delete partition 5, 4 times. Because this is a > moronic way of > writing software, I tried to delete partitions 5-8. > However, by the time > I tried to delete partition 7, the partition I > wanted to keep (9) was > reasssigned to partition 7. Hence, I deleted the > partition I wanted to > keep (Debian's /usr in this case), and kept > partitions I didn't want. > > The second problem was with GNU fdisk. You see, > FreeBSD doesn't care > where partitions end, as long as it ends on a > sector. GNU fdisk, on the > other hand, rounds all partitions up to a cylinder > boundary. When I > moved some partitions around with parted, one of > them didn't start on a > cylinder boundary. Thus, when I used GNU fdisk to > create a new partition > in front of the moved one, the tail end of the new > partition overwrote > the first few megabytes of my old one. Nice, eh?k > > That pissed me off, so I didn't bother reinstalling > Debian. I just > reinstalled FreeBSD, stealing the entire disk for > the new operating > system. I won't use a system controlled by an > organization and operating > system that uses software created by morons like the > parted and fdisk > maintainers. > > In short, these are the reasons I prefer FreeBSD: 1) > The filesystem is > so much better than any linux filesystem, ReiserFS > included. 2) The > system isn't made by idiots. 3) The system's > development is controlled, > and the system is consistent because of that. 4) > FreeBSD never trashed > my data. 5) It's more stable, the VMM system is FAR > superior, and it > contains the reference-standard IP stack (even MS > ripped this off). 6) > The license isn't a Communist-Hypo
Re: A novel idea....
On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:16:02AM -0700, Jason Victor wrote: > Hi. I have to have Windows on my computer, and will > NOT spoil my perfectly tweaked Debian installation. > What I was wondering was: is there a UMSDOS of Phat > Linux-type thing for FreeBSD? I think this would be an > interesting project to undertake. If there isn't one, > and anyone wants to start it, tell me what a > (relatively) newbie C programmer can do. I think it > would increase migration to FreeBSD from Windows, as > opposed to ONLY Linux. > > And something completely unrelated: do FreeBSD > drivers/HOWTOs work on OpenBSD and NetBSD? And what > are the REAL reasons that you guys prefer FreeBSD to > Linux? > > Thanks, > Jason If you ask me, playing around with FreeBSD is sort of pointless unless you're prepared to trash your Debian install. If you're fully content with Debian, why bother learning something new? There should be an incentive to switch, or at least no vested interest in losing what you have. I too came from Debian, and was looking for better performance, more stability, and a real UNIX. I was willing to switch because I had nothing to lose by trashing Debian, so I just jockeyed partitions around. Eventually, I grabbed a copy of GNU Parted, to begin resizing partitions and such. This is what REALLY made me want to switch. Because of lousy program design, the GNU tools (fdisk and parted, namely) trashed my disk. Had intelligent beings created the software, I would never have had to re-rip 3G of MP3s, and lose another 800M of MP3s altogether. The problem was twofold: first, GNU parted dynamically reassigns partition labels when deleting partitions. For example, if I want to delete partitions 5, 6, 7 and 8 but keep partition 9 on hda, it expects me to delete partition 5, 4 times. Because this is a moronic way of writing software, I tried to delete partitions 5-8. However, by the time I tried to delete partition 7, the partition I wanted to keep (9) was reasssigned to partition 7. Hence, I deleted the partition I wanted to keep (Debian's /usr in this case), and kept partitions I didn't want. The second problem was with GNU fdisk. You see, FreeBSD doesn't care where partitions end, as long as it ends on a sector. GNU fdisk, on the other hand, rounds all partitions up to a cylinder boundary. When I moved some partitions around with parted, one of them didn't start on a cylinder boundary. Thus, when I used GNU fdisk to create a new partition in front of the moved one, the tail end of the new partition overwrote the first few megabytes of my old one. Nice, eh?k That pissed me off, so I didn't bother reinstalling Debian. I just reinstalled FreeBSD, stealing the entire disk for the new operating system. I won't use a system controlled by an organization and operating system that uses software created by morons like the parted and fdisk maintainers. In short, these are the reasons I prefer FreeBSD: 1) The filesystem is so much better than any linux filesystem, ReiserFS included. 2) The system isn't made by idiots. 3) The system's development is controlled, and the system is consistent because of that. 4) FreeBSD never trashed my data. 5) It's more stable, the VMM system is FAR superior, and it contains the reference-standard IP stack (even MS ripped this off). 6) The license isn't a Communist-Hypocrite license claiming to be "Free" but really is restrictive. 7) I hate RMS with a passion (remember, he's the Communist hypocrite who claims his software is Free). 8) For a firewall, ipfw blows the doors off of Linux's iptables/ipchains/ipmasq/whatever. 9) I prefer the filesystem hierarchy. 10) Bugfixes and development happen much quicker. 11) None of those shitty SVR4 bootscripts and symlinks; no abundance of pointless runlevels. 12) Fxtv is better than xawtv. 13) The FreeBSD base system behaves better than any Linux base system (e.g., the stuff in /usr/bin and /bin). 14) Linux ABI implementation gives me the best of both worlds. 15) Development is more conservative (e.g., I don't see a bunch of EXPERIMENTAL warnings in /sys/i386/conf/LINT, like I do in Linux kernels). 16) FreeBSD is lighter than Linux. 17) Separation. People in the Debian crowd believe that every dpkg should put its files in /usr, and only self-compiled stuff belongs in /usr/local. I disagree. /usr/local is for "site-specific" stuff, which doesn't necessarily mean self-built. To me, GNOME belongs in /usr/local, because it is site specific, even if it comes in a dpkg. By site-specific, I mean anything that is subject to change from box to box. Therefore, only the base system belongs in /usr. With FreeBSD, my programs are divided logically. There's 17 reasons for you. I'd come up with more, but I'd need to close this vim session or open up another ssh connection to hunt around for things I like. Besides, isn't this message too damn long? -- Andrew Hesford [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the
Re: A novel idea....
* Jason Victor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010404 11:07] wrote: > It sounds like a good idea to me. From what I _think_ > I understand, I can make some kind of FreeBSD boot > floppy, and mount some kind of "virtual partition" > containing FreeBSD that is simply a file on my Windows > partition how far off-base am I??? Actually you're right on target. This is what I suggested. Just use picobsd, you'll need to have FreeBSD installed, then you can make your own picoBSD "distro" that contains the tools you'll need to make the "virtual disk in a file" on your windows partition. > If I can do > this some way, what are some steps that a newbie could > follow? Do a full install of FreeBSD. See the picobsd homepage http://people.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ Make your own picobsd with the tools needed for a FreeBSD install as well as vnconfig. Figure out how to do the virtual partitions using msdos files. Then make a script that unpacks the install files from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/releases/i386/ into the virtual partition. And then customize your system. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [[EMAIL PROTECTED]|[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Daemon News Magazine in your snail-mail! http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: A novel idea....
It sounds like a good idea to me. From what I _think_ I understand, I can make some kind of FreeBSD boot floppy, and mount some kind of "virtual partition" containing FreeBSD that is simply a file on my Windows partition how far off-base am I??? If I can do this some way, what are some steps that a newbie could follow? Thanks alot, Jason --- Alfred Perlstein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > * Mike Bristow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010404 08:02] > wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 07:54:04AM -0700, Alfred > Perlstein wrote: > > > > > > a) use EXT2 as a backing filesystem > > > b) use a file in EXT2/msdosfs as a backing node > for a virtual > > >device: > > > > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=vn&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+4.2-RELEASE&format=html > > >and create a filesystem in that. > > > > That's a very good idea. Performance would > probably suck rocks. > > OTOH, if you suddenly need to install X and so > need another 200M, > > growfs (available in -current only) might enable > you to grow your > > backing file, then grow the filesystem. > > or just make another vn and mount it. :) > > -- > -Alfred Perlstein - > [[EMAIL PROTECTED]|[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Represent yourself, show up at BABUG > http://www.babug.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of > the message __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: A novel idea....
On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 05:16:02AM -0700, Jason Victor wrote: > Hi. I have to have Windows on my computer, and will > NOT spoil my perfectly tweaked Debian installation. > What I was wondering was: is there a UMSDOS of Phat > Linux-type thing for FreeBSD? Not as far as I know (if UMSDOS of Phat is what I think it is). > I think this would be an > interesting project to undertake. If there isn't one, > and anyone wants to start it, tell me what a > (relatively) newbie C programmer can do. Probably little; the main reason one doesn't exist is the lack of a UMSDOS type filesystem on FreeBSD. And it'd (probably) take more than a newbie C programmer to code up one of those. > And something completely unrelated: do FreeBSD > drivers/HOWTOs work on OpenBSD and NetBSD? Drivers: Depends; those that do tend to be full of : #if defined __FreeBSD__ #define do_foo freebsd_do_foo #elif defined __OpenBSD__ #define do_foo openbsd_do_foo #endif but as all the BSD's are similar, these are usually relativly small sections. HOWTOs: HOWTOs are either, in my experience: very system specific (you must be running Linux 2.4, or OpenBSD 2.6, or something) for it to be useful. or very generic (as long as you're reasonably bright, you can read the HOWTO and apply it to anything vaguly unixey). How to install it type documents are in the former camp (reading the OpenBSD install HOWTO ain't gonna help you install Debian); often things like samba or other applications are in the latter camp. > And what > are the REAL reasons that you guys prefer FreeBSD to > Linux? It's development model is something approaching sane. It's a complete OS; rather than a kernel and a bunch of loosly-associated utilities that a bunch of differnet people have used to create a dozen or so OSes from. -- Mike Bristow, seebitwopie To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: A novel idea....
* Mike Bristow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010404 08:02] wrote: > On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 07:54:04AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > a) use EXT2 as a backing filesystem > > b) use a file in EXT2/msdosfs as a backing node for a virtual > >device: > > >http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=vn&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+4.2-RELEASE&format=html > >and create a filesystem in that. > > That's a very good idea. Performance would probably suck rocks. > OTOH, if you suddenly need to install X and so need another 200M, > growfs (available in -current only) might enable you to grow your > backing file, then grow the filesystem. or just make another vn and mount it. :) -- -Alfred Perlstein - [[EMAIL PROTECTED]|[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Represent yourself, show up at BABUG http://www.babug.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: A novel idea....
On Wed, Apr 04, 2001 at 07:54:04AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > a) use EXT2 as a backing filesystem > b) use a file in EXT2/msdosfs as a backing node for a virtual >device: > >http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=vn&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+4.2-RELEASE&format=html >and create a filesystem in that. That's a very good idea. Performance would probably suck rocks. OTOH, if you suddenly need to install X and so need another 200M, growfs (available in -current only) might enable you to grow your backing file, then grow the filesystem. -- Mike Bristow, seebitwopie To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: A novel idea....
* Jason Victor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [010404 05:17] wrote: > Hi. I have to have Windows on my computer, and will > NOT spoil my perfectly tweaked Debian installation. > What I was wondering was: is there a UMSDOS of Phat > Linux-type thing for FreeBSD? I think this would be an > interesting project to undertake. If there isn't one, > and anyone wants to start it, tell me what a > (relatively) newbie C programmer can do. I think it > would increase migration to FreeBSD from Windows, as > opposed to ONLY Linux. You can take a look at picoBSD: http://people.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ Since FreeBSD can mount linux/msdos disks, what you can do is a) use EXT2 as a backing filesystem b) use a file in EXT2/msdosfs as a backing node for a virtual device: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=vn&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+4.2-RELEASE&format=html and create a filesystem in that. > And something completely unrelated: do FreeBSD > drivers/HOWTOs work on OpenBSD and NetBSD? Drivers, not really, HOWTOs depends on the howto, most Linux howtos which are really samba/mgetty/vi/apache howtos work on FreeBSD. :) > And what > are the REAL reasons that you guys prefer FreeBSD to > Linux? I like FreeBSD because I get to fix the problems I come across rather than having to submit it along with massive companies like SGI where I fear getting lost in the noise. -- -Alfred Perlstein - [[EMAIL PROTECTED]|[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Daemon News Magazine in your snail-mail! http://magazine.daemonnews.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
A novel idea....
Hi. I have to have Windows on my computer, and will NOT spoil my perfectly tweaked Debian installation. What I was wondering was: is there a UMSDOS of Phat Linux-type thing for FreeBSD? I think this would be an interesting project to undertake. If there isn't one, and anyone wants to start it, tell me what a (relatively) newbie C programmer can do. I think it would increase migration to FreeBSD from Windows, as opposed to ONLY Linux. And something completely unrelated: do FreeBSD drivers/HOWTOs work on OpenBSD and NetBSD? And what are the REAL reasons that you guys prefer FreeBSD to Linux? Thanks, Jason __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
