Software Patents. Was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT
Peter Mutsaers wrote: > >> "babkin" == babkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > babkin> Sorry for a stupid question but why would not they patent > babkin> this protocol then ? For example, PostScript is patented > babkin> by Adobe and the only reason everyone is able to use it is > babkin> that Adobe had explicitly granted this right to the > babkin> public. > > I don't think this is possible worldwide. Not sure, there's WIPO (World Intellectual Property Organisation ?), (http://www.wipo.org maybe?) but not sure how it works. > In Europe, software > patents do not exist and cannot be granted. Wrong ! Sadly ! That's the old simple theoretical world I learnt about back in University in the late 70's, it changed & got worse ... lawyers encroached, & the EPO expanded like crazy ! The key words "As Such" in regard to software patents bring an ironic smile to the lips of patent examiners in the field. ( & I'm being precise here, about the smile, I lunch often with examiners at http:/www.epo.org = European Patent Office, Nice food, nice people, shame about the patents ! They're clever people & personal friends, & I do my small bit to persuade them to be careful of the effects of what they grant, but the patent system is really sick, change needs to come from top down, not bottom up). > There was an attempt to > change this lately, but (luckily) it failed for the time being. Not quite. From inside authoritative source at EPO, I understand there was an attempt by the patent lawyers to encroach further on our industry, & it failed, or was put into abeyance. (The door IMO is still plenty wide enough for many patent vampire professionals to make a good living.) To find out more about recent change, or lack of change, go look for decisions of the recent week a half "Diplomatic Conference" in EPO, Munich Germany. 75% of the EPO articles were up for review, they didn't get through it all. > The > European Commision was convinced by open source advocates that > software patents are bad. Not as far as I know, no yet, would be nice if they were so persuaded though, that effort is ongoing & really wants us BSD folk to join in, Linux has waved the flag so far. > At least it made them think twice and > postpone the process. The situation is bad, complex, & hard to read about if you get too deep (the 3 official languages of the European Patent Office are English German & French), & I don't enjoy reading legal stuff in `foreign' :-) > The only thing you can protect is the implementation (the program, > in this case to read/write the protocol) under copyright. One can patent methodolgies I believe, a trojan horse for software patents. I wish you were right, but you'r not, your out of date & wrong, the situation has got a lot worse than people think. I wrote a web page on software patents: http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/txt/patents.html http://www.muc.de/~jhs/txt/patents.html The main value of the page is perhaps the URLS it contains to far more authoritative sites, I'm afraid my own text is perhaps half baked. but I'd really encourage all BSD people who care about software patents & how they are damaging free software etc, to bounce through URLs on my page, & go on to far better sites such as http://www.ffii.org http://www.freepatents.org http://petition.eurolinux.org http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/savingeurope.html http://swpat.ffii.org/vreji/pikta = Horror Gallery of Software Patents I have CC'd "Hartmut Pilch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> who is _far_ better informed about patents than I am, & he can correct me, & take the discussion further, he uses Linux himself I believe, but is open to BSD, & is really keen to get some of us BSD people on board with the Linux majority in the anti software patent movement. "Hartmut Pilch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> would also be delighted to receive an official statement from the BSD bodies, so if anyone reading is in position to get any of core@[free/net/open]bsd.org to send him a statement, please help ! Again, please, before anyone engage me in argument, & no disrespect to anyone intended, but if you'r just a programmer, & think you know more than me about patents, you probably don't, so save your time, some of that knowledge from all those lunches with EPO examiners has finally rubbed off on me (when we weren't talking skiing or whatever else), & I find the whole thing very complex, & depressing. The people who could easily correct me are Hartmut (fair enough no complaints there), or the patent lawyers & examiners, but that would get very legalistic & complex, & personally I'd prefer the patent lawyers were all on a one way rocket to mars (Ref telephone sanitisers in Hitchhikers guide to the Universe, a BBC Radio series a while back). So here's hoping folk engage the much better informed & more authoritative "Hartmut Pilch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on
Software Patents. Was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT
>> "Julian" == Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs muc de <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> In Europe, software >> patents do not exist and cannot be granted. Julian> Wrong ! Sadly ! That's the old simple theoretical world I Julian> learnt about back in University in the late 70's, it Julian> changed & got worse ... lawyers encroached, & the EPO Julian> expanded like crazy ! Julian> The key words "As Such" in regard to software patents Julian> bring an ironic smile to the lips of patent examiners in Julian> the field. Julian> ( & I'm being precise here, about the smile, I lunch often Julian> with examiners at http:/www.epo.org = European Patent Julian> Office, Nice food, nice people, shame about the patents ! Julian> They're clever people & personal friends, & I do my small Julian> bit to persuade them to be careful of the effects of what Julian> they grant, but the patent system is really sick, change Julian> needs to come from top down, not bottom up). What I have learned is that the EPO has been granting software patents for several years now, so that they are in place when and if software patents shall be allowed in the EU (probably they have nothing better to do than grant patents in advance, that are not yet lawful?). -- Peter Mutsaers | Dübendorf| UNIX - Live free or die [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Switzerland | Sent via FreeBSD 4.2-stable To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: Software Patents. Was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT
Hello Julian, Thursday, December 21, 2000, 5:20:31 PM, you wrote: I really hope that software patent´s wont be possible in Europe. This would be a real problem for some of us who are not only consulting but developing, too. I remember that a lot of people try to get a patent on the lamest routines and if someadays these patents are legal, they will make money. There are a lot of people out in the world who have very good ideas for good products and they want to develop them to make money (as me, it´s my job - consulting and developing) - but without software patents. I think software patents in Europe would be very dangerous and a lot of people will get a lot of problems. We should not destroy the computer world as the same world, named reality. In "our" world, the computer-specialists are the formers and directors what will be in the feature. The most of us have the ideals to make a "better world" in digital form. A lot of people with a lot of good ideas. On the other side, there are a lot of people wo can´t be rich enough. They try to destroy everything we build over the years. The do not understand what we want to do and where we want to go. We all want to be together, a mega-big community over the world. We want to realise projects in peace and together to build the "most perfect code". We have a lot of fun with doing this. We want to learn and we want to make things better, for fun and to earn some money, too. In the last month I had a very bad dream. Someone said "Now, it is possible to have software patents about everything in the word". And a group of people went to the "digital underground". They are developing and redistributing their operating system still for free, but no one knows who is developing on it. Some of them get caught and they are arrested, because they would develop and distribute software with patented algorithms and so on and this won´t be allowed. A VERY BAD DREAM. And I know if there would really be software patents in europe, a lot of people would build a digital underground, where ideas are ideas, and where we have no restrictions. A lot of us are dreamers with a lot of visions. I really hope that this will not be destroyed by people who can´t be rich enought! I am developing since I am 12 years old. Now I am 25 and I am still developing. I won´t stop it, I love it. If routines i am using are restricted or patented, I really would ask myself for what person I am working. For me, or for someone who was a silly one and patented every silly routine. If this happens, that nearly every routine can be patented, then I really don´t know what to do. I don´t want to think that I have spent the years with learning and developing and now I would have to pay license fees for someone who was rich enough to patent some houndrets of (mostly silly) routines. Some people can´t be rich enough. They destroy everything. We developers should do everything that this won´t happen in Europe or other nations. We computer-freaks want a mega great community. Freedom. Knowledge and peace. This is the way we go. Fight against patents! -- Best regards, Borismailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: Software Patents. Was Re: FreeBSD vs Linux, Solaris, and NT
Peter Mutsaers wrote: > >> "Julian" == Julian Stacey Jhs@jhs muc de <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > >> In Europe, software > >> patents do not exist and cannot be granted. > > Julian> Wrong ! Sadly ! That's the old simple theoretical world I > Julian> learnt about back in University in the late 70's, it > Julian> changed & got worse ... lawyers encroached, & the EPO > Julian> expanded like crazy ! > > Julian> The key words "As Such" in regard to software patents > Julian> bring an ironic smile to the lips of patent examiners in > Julian> the field. > Julian> ( & I'm being precise here, about the smile, I lunch often > Julian> with examiners at http:/www.epo.org = European Patent > Julian> Office, Nice food, nice people, shame about the patents ! > Julian> They're clever people & personal friends, & I do my small > Julian> bit to persuade them to be careful of the effects of what > Julian> they grant, but the patent system is really sick, change > Julian> needs to come from top down, not bottom up). > What I have learned is that the EPO has been granting software patents > for several years now, so that they are in place when and if software > patents shall be allowed in the EU (probably they have nothing better > to do than grant patents in advance, that are not yet lawful?). > > -- > Peter Mutsaers | Dübendorf| UNIX - Live free or die > [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Switzerland | Sent via FreeBSD 4.2-stable No, Sorry Peter you are Wrong ! Sadly ! The situation is worse, the patents granted are lawful already, unless/until overthrown in court. If you can read German consider reading mail list [EMAIL PROTECTED] subscribe info via multilingual web page http://swpat.ffii.org If you prefer English, I'm sure there's other lists on the many web page refs I previously posted. I append FYI a statement I received (with permission to forward) from author of i4b (isdn for *bsd): "Hellmuth Michaelis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Julian Stacey) ] Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2000 13:40:32 +0100 (CET) ] From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Hellmuth Michaelis) ] ] The software you are probably referring to is the PPP Stac compression ] which is patented by Stac/HiFn. Although it is described with the exact ] details required to implement it, it seems to be impossible to actually ] code it (or better to release that code as source or binary) because of ] the patent rights Stac/HiFn holds. It's my understanding one can publish, but not commercialy use without licence, software overlapping the many patents already granted, so its a pretty severe threat aimed at the heart of free software. Read other cases in: http://swpat.ffii.org/vreji/pikta Horror Gallery of Software Patents / Gruselkabinett Europ\xe4ischer Softwarepatente Julian - Julian Stacey Unix Consultant - Munich Germany http://bim.bsn.com/~jhs/ Considering Linux ? Try FreeBSD with its 4200 packages ! Ihr Rauchen => mein allergischer Kopfschmerz ! Kau/Schnupftabak probieren ! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
