how to start to be a hacker?
I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c how to become a hacker? thanks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
how to start to be a hacker?
I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c how to become a hacker? thanks! To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, haodong...@netease.com wrote: > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > how to become a hacker? Not everyone will agree with this, but you may want to look at: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/index.html -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
> On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 08:17:59 -0700, haodong...@netease.com said: haodongpan> I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c how to haodongpan> become a hacker? How to become a hacker in general: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html Of course, not everyone has the personality, intensity, background, and whatever else that it takes to be a hacker. To become a FreeBSD hacker in particular, find yourself a project to help, perhaps one at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/, or start working on one of the tasks-to-do listed online at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/contrib.html. -- Matt Curtin cmcur...@interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
Dominic Mitchell wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, haodong...@netease.com wrote: > > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > > how to become a hacker? > > Not everyone will agree with this, but you may want to look at: > > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/index.html Disagree? Eric even managed to mention the existence of freely available BSD! I'm ecstatic! Actually, it's not a bad description of what most of us have actually done. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ w...@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, haodong...@netease.com wrote: > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > how to become a hacker? You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else can teach you. Do you have the innate curiosity to take things apart just to learn how they work? Do you have the ability to solve problems? The drive to seek solutions? Are you capable of seeing the overall picture while paying attention to the tiniest of details? Are you not satisfied with a good-enough solution, but, instead, thrive to make it do all it is supposed to do, and to do it in a most efficient way possible? Are you willing to share your experience and knowledge with others for the shear pleasure of sharing it rather than for making a quick buck, amd do so without ever telling them to RTFM? Do you lose all concept of time while working on a problem? Forget to eat lunch and supper, or go to bed on time? Do you like to tinker with low-level solutions? Going down to the level of registers and wires, thinking of C as a high-level language? When you see a problem, do you try to solve it instead of telling others they should? After spending hours, days, weeks, writing code, are you willing to delete it all without winking an eye as soon as a better solution presents itself, and never look back? Do you prefer to keep things simple instead of producing monstrosities that can do everything, but nothing right? Are you willing to accept other people's good solutions instead of reinventing the wheel? If you answered yes to most of these questions, chances are you are a hacker. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, haodong...@netease.com wrote: > > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > > how to become a hacker? > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > can teach you. This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. - bill fumerola - bi...@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfume...@computerhorizons.com - bi...@freebsd.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, haodong...@netease.com wrote: > > > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > > > how to become a hacker? > > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > > can teach you. > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often done by a mentor. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ w...@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
Wes Peters wrote: > > Dominic Mitchell wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, haodong...@netease.com wrote: > > > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > > > how to become a hacker? > > > > Not everyone will agree with this, but you may want to look at: > > > > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/index.html > > Disagree? Eric even managed to mention the existence of freely available > BSD! I'm ecstatic! Actually, it's not a bad description of what most of > us have actually done. ;^) At my request, Eric added a link to www.bsd.org for more information about BSD systems. Now it's perfect. Almost. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ w...@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:18:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > > > can teach you. > > > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > done by a mentor. If you have the innate curiosity mentioned in my message, you will obtain experience whether you have a mentor or not. Experience is best obtained by trying things. It cannot be imparted by anyone else (although, it can be encouraged). Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
"G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:18:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone > > > > else > > > > can teach you. > > > > > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > > > > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > > done by a mentor. > > If you have the innate curiosity mentioned in my message, you will obtain > experience whether you have a mentor or not. Experience is best obtained > by trying things. It cannot be imparted by anyone else (although, it can > be encouraged). And, in some cases, disasters averted. I think all of us here have seen a few graphic examples lately of what happens when the mentoring process doesn't work. I think being a hacker is a combination of talent, ethics, and experience. I've known talented and experienced programmers who weren't hackers, either because they didn't have the innate curiousity you mention or because they were ethically challenged and used their skills to steal, cheat, and destroy, which are *not* part of the hacker ethos. Hackers create, crackers steal and destroy. But I'm certain you new that. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ w...@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 11:45:41AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > And, in some cases, disasters averted. I think all of us here have seen > a few graphic examples lately of what happens when the mentoring process > doesn't work. Sadly, mentoring can occasionaly hurt the mentor, too. I used to work for a company whose only programmer quit. They made testing machines controlled by a computer. All of their software was written in Turbo Pascal under MS DOS, and very poorly at that. I was hired along with a young man who had just graduated from college. The first thing I did was convince the boss to toss Turbo Pascal and switch to a combination of C and assembly language. The second thing I had to do was convince him not to fire the young man. He majored in physics and had a few programming classes which gave him the false impression he could program computers. He was completely lost. The boss wanted to fire him because "we don't run a charity here." I thought the young man was intelligent and could learn. I helped him a lot, taught him many tricks. I think I turned him into a fairly decent programmer (not a hacker, mind you, because programming was a job to him, not a passion). Two years later I was "laid off." The boss figured he no longer needed both of us, and decided to keep the younger one because he did not have to pay him as much as me. The story had a happy ending after all: When the young man saw what the boss did to me, within a few months he got a job with another company and quit. So I think I did teach him well. :-) > I think being a hacker is a combination of talent, ethics, and experience. That's a good way of putting it. > I've known talented and experienced programmers who weren't hackers, > either because they didn't have the innate curiousity you mention or > because they were ethically challenged and used their skills to steal, > cheat, and destroy, which are *not* part of the hacker ethos. Hackers > create, crackers steal and destroy. Agreed. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
When scouring through the threads - this one in particular caught my attention. In my experience, which is still very new, I think all of you make excellent points. For the most part, the novice/average person, believes that hackers are malicious, destructive individuals. A huge number of computer users are misled and misinformed about the true definition of the term 'hacker'. This is unfortunate - if those people could spend some time reading the brilliant posts to this list, they might realize that we are not all 16 year olds, hiding behind the glow of the monitor, reading their email and stealing their passwords and credit card information and posting it on IRC. I have a point. :] The first time I experienced that curiosity - I got a little carried away. eh hem I learned that my skills, which included aptness and dexterity, had been misdirected. Upon my awakening, I was blessed with my mentor. He challenged me to use my skills productively. In retrospect, I learned [the hard way] and gained some experience with some help from my mentor [some of you may know Peter Mountain - BRU2000]. All in all, there are many contributing factors to becoming a hacker. I rarely post to this list - so I hope that my lengthy post doesn't offend. So on that note - I will continue observing the minds at work. Thanks for the opportunity to post - Janie Dykes Wes Peters wrote: > > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:18:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone > > > > > else > > > > > can teach you. > > > > > > > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > > > > > > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > > > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > > > done by a mentor. > > > > If you have the innate curiosity mentioned in my message, you will obtain > > experience whether you have a mentor or not. Experience is best obtained > > by trying things. It cannot be imparted by anyone else (although, it can > > be encouraged). > > And, in some cases, disasters averted. I think all of us here have seen > a few graphic examples lately of what happens when the mentoring process > doesn't work. > > I think being a hacker is a combination of talent, ethics, and experience. > I've known talented and experienced programmers who weren't hackers, > either because they didn't have the innate curiousity you mention or > because they were ethically challenged and used their skills to steal, > cheat, and destroy, which are *not* part of the hacker ethos. Hackers > create, crackers steal and destroy. > > But I'm certain you new that. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr > LLC > http://softweyr.com/ > w...@softweyr.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Janie Dykes wrote: > When scouring through the threads - this one in particular caught my > attention. In my experience, which is still very new, I think all of > you make excellent points. For the most part, the novice/average > person, believes that hackers are malicious, destructive individuals. A > huge number of computer users are misled and misinformed about the true > definition of the term 'hacker'. This is unfortunate - if those people > could spend some time reading the brilliant posts to this list, they > might realize that we are not all 16 year olds, hiding behind the glow *cough* Care to explain that comment? > of the monitor, reading their email and stealing their passwords and > credit card information and posting it on IRC. I have a point. :] The > first time I experienced that curiosity - I got a little carried away. > eh hem I learned that my skills, which included aptness > and dexterity, had been misdirected. Upon my awakening, I was blessed > with my mentor. He challenged me to use my skills productively. In > retrospect, I learned [the hard way] and gained some experience with > some help from my mentor [some of you may know Peter Mountain - > BRU2000]. All in all, there are many contributing factors to becoming a > hacker. I rarely post to this list - so I hope that my lengthy post > doesn't offend. So on that note - I will continue observing the minds > at work. > > Thanks for the opportunity to post - > Janie Dykes > > > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:18:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something > > > > > > someone else > > > > > > can teach you. > > > > > > > > > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > > > > > > > > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > > > > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > > > > done by a mentor. > > > > > > If you have the innate curiosity mentioned in my message, you will obtain > > > experience whether you have a mentor or not. Experience is best obtained > > > by trying things. It cannot be imparted by anyone else (although, it can > > > be encouraged). > > > > And, in some cases, disasters averted. I think all of us here have seen > > a few graphic examples lately of what happens when the mentoring process > > doesn't work. > > > > I think being a hacker is a combination of talent, ethics, and experience. > > I've known talented and experienced programmers who weren't hackers, > > either because they didn't have the innate curiousity you mention or > > because they were ethically challenged and used their skills to steal, > > cheat, and destroy, which are *not* part of the hacker ethos. Hackers > > create, crackers steal and destroy. > > > > But I'm certain you new that. ;^) > > > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr > > LLC > > http://softweyr.com/ > > w...@softweyr.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > Brian Fundakowski Feldman _ __ ___ ___ ___ ___ gr...@freebsd.org _ __ ___ | _ ) __| \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve!_ __ | _ \._ \ |) | http://www.FreeBSD.org/ _ |___/___/___/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:26:30PM -0700, Janie Dykes wrote: > > you make excellent points. For the most part, the novice/average > person, believes that hackers are malicious, destructive individuals. A > huge number of computer users are misled and misinformed about the true > definition of the term 'hacker'. This is unfortunate - if those people I don't know. I'm not sure that's so true anymore as it once was. I've been bugged before by kids (hehe, from my peer group, that is) wanting to know what the best thing I'd ever done was. After giving some answer about some really insiduous batch files I'd written for DOS, I was rather disappointed to find-out they meant "what was the most illegal thing you've ever done". I didn't really give an answer to that, but I think many hackers have broken into a system or done something similar at some time (probably fewer of the younger ones since wide availability of real operating systems helps on this ticket). Not to let this become a passage of right or anything. A hacker, of course, is not going to concern themselves with what a hacker is, but others might. The tone of this thread seems to have been set by esr's little p/r definition of hacker. I'd like to declare at this time that a hacker is someone who sends me money in the mail. Upon these people I will bestow the title hacker. Anyways, like I said: I'm not sure your description of the average person's definition of "hacker" is so true anymore. The average person's definition is probably a little more true than esr's, if not nearly as articulate. PS: don't worry, you aren't expected to send much money these days anymore. PSS: Sending cash in the mail is illegal, don't do it. Canadian or American money orders only, please. > could spend some time reading the brilliant posts to this list, they > might realize that we are not all 16 year olds, hiding behind the glow Heh. Despite the -list name, this whole thread belongs on -chat. -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
"Brian F. Feldman" wrote: > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Janie Dykes wrote: > > > When scouring through the threads - this one in particular caught my > > attention. In my experience, which is still very new, I think all of > > you make excellent points. For the most part, the novice/average > > person, believes that hackers are malicious, destructive individuals. A > > huge number of computer users are misled and misinformed about the true > > definition of the term 'hacker'. This is unfortunate - if those people > > could spend some time reading the brilliant posts to this list, they > > might realize that we are not all 16 year olds, hiding behind the glow > > *cough* Care to explain that comment? Trust me, greenie, those of us who a FAR from 16 wish we weren't. ;^) You're obviously not the wastrel Janie is talking about here. THEY're all over at SlashDot calling me names. ;^) > > The > > first time I experienced that curiosity - I got a little carried away. > > eh hem I learned that my skills, which included aptness > > and dexterity, had been misdirected. Upon my awakening, I was blessed > > with my mentor. He challenged me to use my skills productively. One of the important aspects of being a hacker is discipline, both self-discipline and team discipline when working with others. Both are learned behavior for the typical hacker type; something you have to develop an admiration for before you are even willing to try it yourself. A certain amount of discretion is called for as well, which can ONLY be learned by experience. In the meantime, a good mentor can help by giving advice (and/or an occasional butt-kicking) to avoid doing something REALLY stupid. These two traits are certainly not unique to hacking, that's why mentoring is a concept as old as the children of Adam and Eve. In fact, I've found it to be MUCH more important in other occupations, like motorcycling, sailing, and chemistry. ;^) > > In > > retrospect, I learned [the hard way] and gained some experience with Preferably without losing any body parts? > > some help from my mentor [some of you may know Peter Mountain - > > BRU2000]. All in all, there are many contributing factors to becoming a > > hacker. I rarely post to this list - so I hope that my lengthy post > > doesn't offend. So on that note - I will continue observing the minds > > at work. No problem, you're always welcome. Do try to keep the quoting to a minimum. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ w...@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 06:11:08PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Trust me, greenie, those of us who a FAR from 16 wish we weren't. ;^) What, and miss the sixties??? Get back to your handbasket! :-) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
"G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 06:11:08PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Trust me, greenie, those of us who a FAR from 16 wish we weren't. ;^) > > What, and miss the sixties??? Get back to your handbasket! :-) Our experiences of the sixties were probably different. I spent mine as a dirt-poor "GI brat", the son of an American military man, watching my father fly to far away lands to get maimed. He was wounded in Tripoli when Qaddafi took Libya from King Idris, and later in Thailand during the Khmer Rouge reign of terror, sending young pilots to die at Thud Ridge. We just wanted him home safe. We spent 1970 at Fort Benning, Ga. We went to the commissary every Thursday, and watched the fleet of chaplains cars coming and going, doing next of kin notification. That (and the space program) are what the sixties mean to me. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ w...@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
> Not to let this become a passage of right or anything. ITYM "rite of passage". HTH, HAND! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - d...@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c how to become a hacker? >>> You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else >>> can teach you. >> This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > done by a mentor. I think the general gist was summed up in Levy[1]: "If a hacker's made, he's got to be born; but if a hacker's born, he's gonna be made." (I haven't read Levy in ages, and I am probably mangling the quote. I can't even be sure that it's from Levy. FWIW, I think the originator was either Gosper or GLS.) Cheers, joelh [1] Levy, Steven. _Hackers_. Anchor/Doubleday 1984 ISBN 0-385-19195-2 -- Joel Ray Holveck - jo...@gnu.org Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped To Unsubscribe: send mail to majord...@freebsd.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > how to become a hacker? Not everyone will agree with this, but you may want to look at: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/index.html -- Dom Mitchell -- Palmer & Harvey McLane -- Unix Systems Administrator In Mountain View did Larry Wall Sedately launch a quiet plea: That DOS, the ancient system, shall On boxes pleasureless to all Run Perl though lack they C. -- ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. ** To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
> On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 08:17:59 -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: haodongpan> I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c how to haodongpan> become a hacker? How to become a hacker in general: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html Of course, not everyone has the personality, intensity, background, and whatever else that it takes to be a hacker. To become a FreeBSD hacker in particular, find yourself a project to help, perhaps one at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/, or start working on one of the tasks-to-do listed online at http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/contrib.html. -- Matt Curtin [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
Dominic Mitchell wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > > how to become a hacker? > > Not everyone will agree with this, but you may want to look at: > > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/index.html Disagree? Eric even managed to mention the existence of freely available BSD! I'm ecstatic! Actually, it's not a bad description of what most of us have actually done. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > how to become a hacker? You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else can teach you. Do you have the innate curiosity to take things apart just to learn how they work? Do you have the ability to solve problems? The drive to seek solutions? Are you capable of seeing the overall picture while paying attention to the tiniest of details? Are you not satisfied with a good-enough solution, but, instead, thrive to make it do all it is supposed to do, and to do it in a most efficient way possible? Are you willing to share your experience and knowledge with others for the shear pleasure of sharing it rather than for making a quick buck, amd do so without ever telling them to RTFM? Do you lose all concept of time while working on a problem? Forget to eat lunch and supper, or go to bed on time? Do you like to tinker with low-level solutions? Going down to the level of registers and wires, thinking of C as a high-level language? When you see a problem, do you try to solve it instead of telling others they should? After spending hours, days, weeks, writing code, are you willing to delete it all without winking an eye as soon as a better solution presents itself, and never look back? Do you prefer to keep things simple instead of producing monstrosities that can do everything, but nothing right? Are you willing to accept other people's good solutions instead of reinventing the wheel? If you answered yes to most of these questions, chances are you are a hacker. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > > how to become a hacker? > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > can teach you. This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. - bill fumerola - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > > > how to become a hacker? > > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > > can teach you. > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often done by a mentor. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
Wes Peters wrote: > > Dominic Mitchell wrote: > > > > On Thu, Jul 01, 1999 at 08:17:59AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c > > > how to become a hacker? > > > > Not everyone will agree with this, but you may want to look at: > > > > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/index.html > > Disagree? Eric even managed to mention the existence of freely available > BSD! I'm ecstatic! Actually, it's not a bad description of what most of > us have actually done. ;^) At my request, Eric added a link to www.bsd.org for more information about BSD systems. Now it's perfect. Almost. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:18:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > > > can teach you. > > > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > done by a mentor. If you have the innate curiosity mentioned in my message, you will obtain experience whether you have a mentor or not. Experience is best obtained by trying things. It cannot be imparted by anyone else (although, it can be encouraged). Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
"G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:18:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > > > > can teach you. > > > > > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > > > > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > > done by a mentor. > > If you have the innate curiosity mentioned in my message, you will obtain > experience whether you have a mentor or not. Experience is best obtained > by trying things. It cannot be imparted by anyone else (although, it can > be encouraged). And, in some cases, disasters averted. I think all of us here have seen a few graphic examples lately of what happens when the mentoring process doesn't work. I think being a hacker is a combination of talent, ethics, and experience. I've known talented and experienced programmers who weren't hackers, either because they didn't have the innate curiousity you mention or because they were ethically challenged and used their skills to steal, cheat, and destroy, which are *not* part of the hacker ethos. Hackers create, crackers steal and destroy. But I'm certain you new that. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 11:45:41AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > And, in some cases, disasters averted. I think all of us here have seen > a few graphic examples lately of what happens when the mentoring process > doesn't work. Sadly, mentoring can occasionaly hurt the mentor, too. I used to work for a company whose only programmer quit. They made testing machines controlled by a computer. All of their software was written in Turbo Pascal under MS DOS, and very poorly at that. I was hired along with a young man who had just graduated from college. The first thing I did was convince the boss to toss Turbo Pascal and switch to a combination of C and assembly language. The second thing I had to do was convince him not to fire the young man. He majored in physics and had a few programming classes which gave him the false impression he could program computers. He was completely lost. The boss wanted to fire him because "we don't run a charity here." I thought the young man was intelligent and could learn. I helped him a lot, taught him many tricks. I think I turned him into a fairly decent programmer (not a hacker, mind you, because programming was a job to him, not a passion). Two years later I was "laid off." The boss figured he no longer needed both of us, and decided to keep the younger one because he did not have to pay him as much as me. The story had a happy ending after all: When the young man saw what the boss did to me, within a few months he got a job with another company and quit. So I think I did teach him well. :-) > I think being a hacker is a combination of talent, ethics, and experience. That's a good way of putting it. > I've known talented and experienced programmers who weren't hackers, > either because they didn't have the innate curiousity you mention or > because they were ethically challenged and used their skills to steal, > cheat, and destroy, which are *not* part of the hacker ethos. Hackers > create, crackers steal and destroy. Agreed. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
When scouring through the threads - this one in particular caught my attention. In my experience, which is still very new, I think all of you make excellent points. For the most part, the novice/average person, believes that hackers are malicious, destructive individuals. A huge number of computer users are misled and misinformed about the true definition of the term 'hacker'. This is unfortunate - if those people could spend some time reading the brilliant posts to this list, they might realize that we are not all 16 year olds, hiding behind the glow of the monitor, reading their email and stealing their passwords and credit card information and posting it on IRC. I have a point. :] The first time I experienced that curiosity - I got a little carried away. eh hem I learned that my skills, which included aptness and dexterity, had been misdirected. Upon my awakening, I was blessed with my mentor. He challenged me to use my skills productively. In retrospect, I learned [the hard way] and gained some experience with some help from my mentor [some of you may know Peter Mountain - BRU2000]. All in all, there are many contributing factors to becoming a hacker. I rarely post to this list - so I hope that my lengthy post doesn't offend. So on that note - I will continue observing the minds at work. Thanks for the opportunity to post - Janie Dykes Wes Peters wrote: > > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:18:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > > > > > can teach you. > > > > > > > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > > > > > > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > > > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > > > done by a mentor. > > > > If you have the innate curiosity mentioned in my message, you will obtain > > experience whether you have a mentor or not. Experience is best obtained > > by trying things. It cannot be imparted by anyone else (although, it can > > be encouraged). > > And, in some cases, disasters averted. I think all of us here have seen > a few graphic examples lately of what happens when the mentoring process > doesn't work. > > I think being a hacker is a combination of talent, ethics, and experience. > I've known talented and experienced programmers who weren't hackers, > either because they didn't have the innate curiousity you mention or > because they were ethically challenged and used their skills to steal, > cheat, and destroy, which are *not* part of the hacker ethos. Hackers > create, crackers steal and destroy. > > But I'm certain you new that. ;^) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://softweyr.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Janie Dykes wrote: > When scouring through the threads - this one in particular caught my > attention. In my experience, which is still very new, I think all of > you make excellent points. For the most part, the novice/average > person, believes that hackers are malicious, destructive individuals. A > huge number of computer users are misled and misinformed about the true > definition of the term 'hacker'. This is unfortunate - if those people > could spend some time reading the brilliant posts to this list, they > might realize that we are not all 16 year olds, hiding behind the glow *cough* Care to explain that comment? > of the monitor, reading their email and stealing their passwords and > credit card information and posting it on IRC. I have a point. :] The > first time I experienced that curiosity - I got a little carried away. > eh hem I learned that my skills, which included aptness > and dexterity, had been misdirected. Upon my awakening, I was blessed > with my mentor. He challenged me to use my skills productively. In > retrospect, I learned [the hard way] and gained some experience with > some help from my mentor [some of you may know Peter Mountain - > BRU2000]. All in all, there are many contributing factors to becoming a > hacker. I rarely post to this list - so I hope that my lengthy post > doesn't offend. So on that note - I will continue observing the minds > at work. > > Thanks for the opportunity to post - > Janie Dykes > > > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:18:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > > > You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else > > > > > > can teach you. > > > > > > > > > > This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > > > > > > > > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > > > > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > > > > done by a mentor. > > > > > > If you have the innate curiosity mentioned in my message, you will obtain > > > experience whether you have a mentor or not. Experience is best obtained > > > by trying things. It cannot be imparted by anyone else (although, it can > > > be encouraged). > > > > And, in some cases, disasters averted. I think all of us here have seen > > a few graphic examples lately of what happens when the mentoring process > > doesn't work. > > > > I think being a hacker is a combination of talent, ethics, and experience. > > I've known talented and experienced programmers who weren't hackers, > > either because they didn't have the innate curiousity you mention or > > because they were ethically challenged and used their skills to steal, > > cheat, and destroy, which are *not* part of the hacker ethos. Hackers > > create, crackers steal and destroy. > > > > But I'm certain you new that. ;^) > > > > -- > > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > > http://softweyr.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > Brian Fundakowski Feldman _ __ ___ ___ ___ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ __ ___ | _ ) __| \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve!_ __ | _ \._ \ |) | http://www.FreeBSD.org/ _ |___/___/___/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
"Brian F. Feldman" wrote: > > On Sat, 3 Jul 1999, Janie Dykes wrote: > > > When scouring through the threads - this one in particular caught my > > attention. In my experience, which is still very new, I think all of > > you make excellent points. For the most part, the novice/average > > person, believes that hackers are malicious, destructive individuals. A > > huge number of computer users are misled and misinformed about the true > > definition of the term 'hacker'. This is unfortunate - if those people > > could spend some time reading the brilliant posts to this list, they > > might realize that we are not all 16 year olds, hiding behind the glow > > *cough* Care to explain that comment? Trust me, greenie, those of us who a FAR from 16 wish we weren't. ;^) You're obviously not the wastrel Janie is talking about here. THEY're all over at SlashDot calling me names. ;^) > > The > > first time I experienced that curiosity - I got a little carried away. > > eh hem I learned that my skills, which included aptness > > and dexterity, had been misdirected. Upon my awakening, I was blessed > > with my mentor. He challenged me to use my skills productively. One of the important aspects of being a hacker is discipline, both self-discipline and team discipline when working with others. Both are learned behavior for the typical hacker type; something you have to develop an admiration for before you are even willing to try it yourself. A certain amount of discretion is called for as well, which can ONLY be learned by experience. In the meantime, a good mentor can help by giving advice (and/or an occasional butt-kicking) to avoid doing something REALLY stupid. These two traits are certainly not unique to hacking, that's why mentoring is a concept as old as the children of Adam and Eve. In fact, I've found it to be MUCH more important in other occupations, like motorcycling, sailing, and chemistry. ;^) > > In > > retrospect, I learned [the hard way] and gained some experience with Preferably without losing any body parts? > > some help from my mentor [some of you may know Peter Mountain - > > BRU2000]. All in all, there are many contributing factors to becoming a > > hacker. I rarely post to this list - so I hope that my lengthy post > > doesn't offend. So on that note - I will continue observing the minds > > at work. No problem, you're always welcome. Do try to keep the quoting to a minimum. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 01:26:30PM -0700, Janie Dykes wrote: > > you make excellent points. For the most part, the novice/average > person, believes that hackers are malicious, destructive individuals. A > huge number of computer users are misled and misinformed about the true > definition of the term 'hacker'. This is unfortunate - if those people I don't know. I'm not sure that's so true anymore as it once was. I've been bugged before by kids (hehe, from my peer group, that is) wanting to know what the best thing I'd ever done was. After giving some answer about some really insiduous batch files I'd written for DOS, I was rather disappointed to find-out they meant "what was the most illegal thing you've ever done". I didn't really give an answer to that, but I think many hackers have broken into a system or done something similar at some time (probably fewer of the younger ones since wide availability of real operating systems helps on this ticket). Not to let this become a passage of right or anything. A hacker, of course, is not going to concern themselves with what a hacker is, but others might. The tone of this thread seems to have been set by esr's little p/r definition of hacker. I'd like to declare at this time that a hacker is someone who sends me money in the mail. Upon these people I will bestow the title hacker. Anyways, like I said: I'm not sure your description of the average person's definition of "hacker" is so true anymore. The average person's definition is probably a little more true than esr's, if not nearly as articulate. PS: don't worry, you aren't expected to send much money these days anymore. PSS: Sending cash in the mail is illegal, don't do it. Canadian or American money orders only, please. > could spend some time reading the brilliant posts to this list, they > might realize that we are not all 16 year olds, hiding behind the glow Heh. Despite the -list name, this whole thread belongs on -chat. -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 06:11:08PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Trust me, greenie, those of us who a FAR from 16 wish we weren't. ;^) What, and miss the sixties??? Get back to your handbasket! :-) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
"G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 03, 1999 at 06:11:08PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Trust me, greenie, those of us who a FAR from 16 wish we weren't. ;^) > > What, and miss the sixties??? Get back to your handbasket! :-) Our experiences of the sixties were probably different. I spent mine as a dirt-poor "GI brat", the son of an American military man, watching my father fly to far away lands to get maimed. He was wounded in Tripoli when Qaddafi took Libya from King Idris, and later in Thailand during the Khmer Rouge reign of terror, sending young pilots to die at Thud Ridge. We just wanted him home safe. We spent 1970 at Fort Benning, Ga. We went to the commissary every Thursday, and watched the fleet of chaplains cars coming and going, doing next of kin notification. That (and the space program) are what the sixties mean to me. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://softweyr.com/ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
> Not to let this become a passage of right or anything. ITYM "rite of passage". HTH, HAND! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
Re: how to start to be a hacker?
I know the basic admin knowledge of UNIX,perl,cgi,c how to become a hacker? >>> You either are a hacker, or you are not. It is not something someone else >>> can teach you. >> This deserves a FAQ entry. What an awesome response. > But it's certainly NOT something that you just are, either. You have to > have talent, but you also have to have experience. This is most often > done by a mentor. I think the general gist was summed up in Levy[1]: "If a hacker's made, he's got to be born; but if a hacker's born, he's gonna be made." (I haven't read Levy in ages, and I am probably mangling the quote. I can't even be sure that it's from Levy. FWIW, I think the originator was either Gosper or GLS.) Cheers, joelh [1] Levy, Steven. _Hackers_. Anchor/Doubleday 1984 ISBN 0-385-19195-2 -- Joel Ray Holveck - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped To Unsubscribe: send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message
