Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Colin, adding you to this thread with proposed patch (two options) for
freebsd-update, below.
On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote:
Honest question, have you been building things from source under
debian's ports or are you using their version of pkg?
the latter
and i have two 9 systems where i try to use freebsd-update. also a
time-consuming rabbit hole leading nowhere pleasant. e.g.
# freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE-p3
Looking up update.FreeBSD.org mirrors... 5 mirrors found.
Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE from update5.freebsd.org... done.
Fetching metadata index... done.
Inspecting system... done.
The following components of FreeBSD seem to be installed:
kernel/generic world/base world/doc world/games world/lib32
The following components of FreeBSD do not seem to be installed:
Does this look reasonable (y/n)? y
Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update5.freebsd.org...
failed.
Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update2.freebsd.org...
failed.
Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update3.freebsd.org...
failed.
Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update4.freebsd.org...
failed.
Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update6.freebsd.org...
failed.
No mirrors remaining, giving up.
Randy, you're not the first to specify a patch level in the target
release version for freebsd-update. This failure mode could be more
friendly.
One of the patches below (or something like them) could help.
We could either warn the user, and stop:
--- freebsd-update.bak 2013-11-29 07:18:36.0 -0900
+++ freebsd-update 2014-03-24 21:59:20.0 -0800
@@ -674,6 +674,15 @@
exit 1
fi
+ # The target release should not specify a patch level.
+ if echo ${TARGETRELEASE} | grep -qE \-p[0-9]+$; then
+ TARGETRELEASE=`echo ${TARGETRELEASE} |
+ sed -E 's,-p[0-9]+,,'`
+ echo -n `basename $0`:
+ echo Cannot upgrade to a specific patch level - try
'-r ${TARGETRELEASE}' instead
+ exit 1
+ fi
+
# Turning off AllowAdd or AllowDelete is a bad idea for upgrades.
if [ ${ALLOWADD} = no ]; then
echo -n `basename $0`:
... or else freebsd-update could DWIM by precisely stripping any patch
level, and continuing:
--- freebsd-update.bak 2013-11-29 07:18:36.0 -0900
+++ freebsd-update.new 2014-03-24 22:09:37.0 -0800
@@ -674,6 +674,16 @@
exit 1
fi
+ # The target release should not specify a patch level.
+ if echo ${TARGETRELEASE} | grep -qE \-p[0-9]+$; then
+ TARGETRELEASE=`echo ${TARGETRELEASE} |
+ sed -E 's,-p[0-9]+,,'`
+ echo -n `basename $0`:
+ echo -n WARNING: Cannot upgrade to a specific patch level.
+ echo Using ${TARGETRELEASE} instead.
+ echo
+ fi
+
# Turning off AllowAdd or AllowDelete is a bad idea for upgrades.
if [ ${ALLOWADD} = no ]; then
echo -n `basename $0`:
Colin, tweak (or take a different tack) as you see fit, of course.
Royce
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Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Royce Williams ro...@tycho.org wrote: Colin, adding you to this thread with proposed patch (two options) for freebsd-update, below. On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: Honest question, have you been building things from source under debian's ports or are you using their version of pkg? the latter and i have two 9 systems where i try to use freebsd-update. also a time-consuming rabbit hole leading nowhere pleasant. e.g. # freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE-p3 Looking up update.FreeBSD.org mirrors... 5 mirrors found. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE from update5.freebsd.org... done. Fetching metadata index... done. Inspecting system... done. The following components of FreeBSD seem to be installed: kernel/generic world/base world/doc world/games world/lib32 The following components of FreeBSD do not seem to be installed: Does this look reasonable (y/n)? y Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update5.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update2.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update3.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update4.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update6.freebsd.org... failed. No mirrors remaining, giving up. Randy, you're not the first to specify a patch level in the target release version for freebsd-update. This failure mode could be more friendly. raid0.dfw.rg.net:/root# freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE freebsd-update: Cannot upgrade from 9.2-RELEASE to itself raid0.dfw.rg.net:/root# freebsd-update upgrade freebsd-update: Release target must be specified via -r option. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On Tue, Mar 25, 2014 at 03:29:23PM +0900, Randy Bush wrote: Royce Williams ro...@tycho.org wrote: Colin, adding you to this thread with proposed patch (two options) for freebsd-update, below. On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 10:49 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: Honest question, have you been building things from source under debian's ports or are you using their version of pkg? the latter and i have two 9 systems where i try to use freebsd-update. also a time-consuming rabbit hole leading nowhere pleasant. e.g. # freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE-p3 Looking up update.FreeBSD.org mirrors... 5 mirrors found. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE from update5.freebsd.org... done. Fetching metadata index... done. Inspecting system... done. The following components of FreeBSD seem to be installed: kernel/generic world/base world/doc world/games world/lib32 The following components of FreeBSD do not seem to be installed: Does this look reasonable (y/n)? y Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update5.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update2.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update3.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update4.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update6.freebsd.org... failed. No mirrors remaining, giving up. Randy, you're not the first to specify a patch level in the target release version for freebsd-update. This failure mode could be more friendly. raid0.dfw.rg.net:/root# freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE freebsd-update: Cannot upgrade from 9.2-RELEASE to itself raid0.dfw.rg.net:/root# freebsd-update upgrade freebsd-update: Release target must be specified via -r option. You're using it wrong. Use freebsd-update fetch install to update staying in the currently running RELEASE branch. So you just get security updates and errata. Use freebsd-update upgrade -r 10.0-RELEASE followed by two freebsd-update install to upgrade to a newer release version. I admit that the two cals of freebsd-update install are consfusing. The first run installs the new kernel. Then you should reboot the new kernel and the second installs the new world. If I'd written freebsd-update I would have called it installkernel and installworld to avoid confusion. But apart from that freebsd-update(8) just works... pgpotSmHN_acc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Use freebsd-update fetch install to update staying in the currently running RELEASE branch. So you just get security updates and errata. ty! ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Am 23.03.2014 01:18, schrieb Matthew Seaman: PACKAGESITE support in pkg.conf has been dropped entirely in 1.3 which is in alpha at the moment. I need to double check, but that should mean those error messages will go away too. To be blunt, anyone who wants to use FreeBSD for production does not give a shit on pkg alpha versions, he expects pkg 1.0.0 or 1.0.1 at the latest to cover 99% right. I still foster that feeling that we are rushing and forcing ports changes, including pkgNG transition, at a hilarious pace, and even if portmgr states that -exp runs do happen for most changes, -exp runs will not capture real-world systems that need to make several transitions (pkgNG, USES=... transition of the day, Perl version of the day, Python wrapper of the day, c++ lib of the version) at once. And the lack of compatibility I've seen so far is frightening. Most people no longer test ports on pre-pkgNG systems because that's deprecated. But it needs to work fine until the day after expiration. ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 3/22/2014 15:29, Esa Karkkainen wrote: On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 03:49:34AM +0900, Randy Bush wrote: and i have two 9 systems where i try to use freebsd-update. also a time-consuming rabbit hole leading nowhere pleasant. e.g. # freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE-p3 Lose the -p3, because freebsd-update will get you to the lastet patch level. If you don't like this behaviour, you can use svn. then freebsd-update should give an error message that the -p3 should be omitted, or offer to fetch 9.2-RELEASE instead. what it shouldn't do is accept this is a valid input and then go off and pretend all the mirrors are down. -lee ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
from another team member, also a long time freebsd user of decades firefox build bombs because something has hardwired gcc47, which is not installed, so firefox's ./configure bombs testing hello world. Attempting to figure out what has hardwired gcc47 quickly leads down an entire separate /usr/ports/Mk/ file full of the usual garbage, none of which actually says gcc47. Presumably it is somehow inheriting from /usr/ports/lang/gcc's version (as opposed to /usr/port/lang/gcc4[69] -- this machine happens to have gcc46 installed). This is as far as I got before giving up in disgust. Maybe they'll sort it out by the time I care. Or maybe I'll wipe and Ubuntu. essentially, from a user perspective, the ports have become kiddieville, with no testing or seeming adult supervision. if you're just trying to get your work done, freebsd ports have become toxic. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 3/22/14 11:12 AM, Randy Bush wrote: from another team member, also a long time freebsd user of decades firefox build bombs because something has hardwired gcc47, which is not installed, so firefox's ./configure bombs testing hello world. Attempting to figure out what has hardwired gcc47 quickly leads down an entire separate /usr/ports/Mk/ file full of the usual garbage, none of which actually says gcc47. Presumably it is somehow inheriting from /usr/ports/lang/gcc's version (as opposed to /usr/port/lang/gcc4[69] -- this machine happens to have gcc46 installed). This is as far as I got before giving up in disgust. Maybe they'll sort it out by the time I care. Or maybe I'll wipe and Ubuntu. essentially, from a user perspective, the ports have become kiddieville, with no testing or seeming adult supervision. if you're just trying to get your work done, freebsd ports have become toxic. randy randy, What about using pkg(1) and what version of FreeBSD are you on? Finally, are you using portupgrade? ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
What about using pkg(1) and what version of FreeBSD are you on? what about standing on my left foot and chewing gum? you're down in the kinky world where the customer has to spend serious time and energy to get around brokenness in your product. this is a well-known recipe for losing customers. Finally, are you using portupgrade? and pkg. it all sucks. and it sucks the customer's time. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 3/22/14 11:19 AM, Randy Bush wrote: What about using pkg(1) and what version of FreeBSD are you on? what about standing on my left foot and chewing gum? you're down in the kinky world where the customer has to spend serious time and energy to get around brokenness in your product. this is a well-known recipe for losing customers. Finally, are you using portupgrade? and pkg. it all sucks. and it sucks the customer's time. I'm nursing a touch of a foul mood too. (The missus and I were out at a birthday party last night a little later than we should have.) I'm going to gym to shake out the bad attitudes, what are you doing? -Alfred ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
I'm nursing a touch of a foul mood too. (The missus and I were out at a birthday party last night a little later than we should have.) sympathies. don't drink, though freebsd ports causes me to reconsider I'm going to gym to shake out the bad attitudes, what are you doing? going back to sleep and moving two more services to debian tomorrow. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 3/22/14 11:38 AM, Randy Bush wrote: I'm nursing a touch of a foul mood too. (The missus and I were out at a birthday party last night a little later than we should have.) sympathies. don't drink, though freebsd ports causes me to reconsider It might loosen you up! I'm going to gym to shake out the bad attitudes, what are you doing? going back to sleep and moving two more services to debian tomorrow. Honest question, have you been building things from source under debian's ports or are you using their version of pkg? -Alfred ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Honest question, have you been building things from source under debian's ports or are you using their version of pkg? the latter and i have two 9 systems where i try to use freebsd-update. also a time-consuming rabbit hole leading nowhere pleasant. e.g. # freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE-p3 Looking up update.FreeBSD.org mirrors... 5 mirrors found. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE from update5.freebsd.org... done. Fetching metadata index... done. Inspecting system... done. The following components of FreeBSD seem to be installed: kernel/generic world/base world/doc world/games world/lib32 The following components of FreeBSD do not seem to be installed: Does this look reasonable (y/n)? y Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update5.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update2.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update3.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update4.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update6.freebsd.org... failed. No mirrors remaining, giving up. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 03/22/14 11:12, Randy Bush wrote: from another team member, also a long time freebsd user of decades firefox build bombs because something has hardwired gcc47, which is not installed, so firefox's ./configure bombs testing hello world. Attempting to figure out what has hardwired gcc47 quickly leads down an entire separate /usr/ports/Mk/ file full of the usual garbage, none of which actually says gcc47. Presumably it is somehow inheriting from /usr/ports/lang/gcc's version (as opposed to /usr/port/lang/gcc4[69] -- this machine happens to have gcc46 installed). This is as far as I got before giving up in disgust. Maybe they'll sort it out by the time I care. Or maybe I'll wipe and Ubuntu. essentially, from a user perspective, the ports have become kiddieville, with no testing or seeming adult supervision. if you're just trying to get your work done, freebsd ports have become toxic. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org This is actually a serious problem, not just for Randy, but for many people. I've stopped updating machines because it is impossible to trust that ports actually works -- and has been impossible to do so for a year now. I realize that a lot of feature changes have been required for modernization (staging, for example), but the pace has been relentless enough that things just don't work the majority of the time. Ports used to be one of FreeBSD's great strengths -- now it is driving people away. This is not anecdotal and not a limited problem. At least testing branches would be appreciated. -Nathan ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 3/22/14 11:49 AM, Randy Bush wrote: Honest question, have you been building things from source under debian's ports or are you using their version of pkg? the latter Ok then, well then you should be using pkg if you want to do a fair apples to apples comparison. Otherwise you're comparing two different games #1 at easy mode vs #2 at expert and complaining that game #2 is too hard. and i have two 9 systems where i try to use freebsd-update. also a time-consuming rabbit hole leading nowhere pleasant. e.g. # freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE-p3 Looking up update.FreeBSD.org mirrors... 5 mirrors found. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE from update5.freebsd.org... done. Fetching metadata index... done. Inspecting system... done. The following components of FreeBSD seem to be installed: kernel/generic world/base world/doc world/games world/lib32 The following components of FreeBSD do not seem to be installed: Does this look reasonable (y/n)? y Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update5.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update2.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update3.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update4.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update6.freebsd.org... failed. No mirrors remaining, giving up. That is quite annoying! I don't happen to use FreeBSD update, but honestly posting a log of this as a fresh message to the lists (without the vitriol) might get you some attention. I happened to have a huge problem with the installer, posted about it and no one did anything until I posted a pretty hilarious screencast of me trying to use it while it did everything in its power to do anything BUT partition disks. -Alfred randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Nathan Whitehorn nwhiteh...@freebsd.org wrote: On 03/22/14 11:12, Randy Bush wrote: from another team member, also a long time freebsd user of decades firefox build bombs because something has hardwired gcc47, which is not installed, so firefox's ./configure bombs testing hello world. Attempting to figure out what has hardwired gcc47 quickly leads down an entire separate /usr/ports/Mk/ file full of the usual garbage, none of which actually says gcc47. Presumably it is somehow inheriting from /usr/ports/lang/gcc's version (as opposed to /usr/port/lang/gcc4[69] -- this machine happens to have gcc46 installed). This is as far as I got before giving up in disgust. Maybe they'll sort it out by the time I care. Or maybe I'll wipe and Ubuntu. essentially, from a user perspective, the ports have become kiddieville, with no testing or seeming adult supervision. if you're just trying to get your work done, freebsd ports have become toxic. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org This is actually a serious problem, not just for Randy, but for many people. I've stopped updating machines because it is impossible to trust that ports actually works -- and has been impossible to do so for a year now. I realize that a lot of feature changes have been required for modernization (staging, for example), but the pace has been relentless enough that things just don't work the majority of the time. Ports used to be one of FreeBSD's great strengths -- now it is driving people away. This is not anecdotal and not a limited problem. At least testing branches would be appreciated. Something like ivoras@ suggested two years ago? http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2010-March/060296.html -Nathan ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Fwd: Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Forgot to reply to list. Typos and terseness brought to you by the LG G2 running SlimKat. -- Forwarded message -- From: Freddie Cash fjwc...@gmail.com Date: Mar 22, 2014 12:09 PM Subject: Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux To: Randy Bush ra...@psg.com Cc: On Mar 22, 2014 11:49 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: Honest question, have you been building things from source under debian's ports or are you using their version of pkg? the latter and i have two 9 systems where i try to use freebsd-update. also a time-consuming rabbit hole leading nowhere pleasant. e.g. # freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE-p3 Looking up update.FreeBSD.org mirrors... 5 mirrors found. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE from update5.freebsd.org... done. Fetching metadata index... done. Inspecting system... done. The following components of FreeBSD seem to be installed: kernel/generic world/base world/doc world/games world/lib32 The following components of FreeBSD do not seem to be installed: Does this look reasonable (y/n)? y Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update5.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update2.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update3.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update4.freebsd.org... failed. Fetching metadata signature for 9.2-RELEASE-p3 from update6.freebsd.org... failed. No mirrors remaining, giving up. As a counter-point, I just upgraded 4 systems running different versions of 9.1-STABLE to 9.2-RELEASE-p3 this week. Took only 1 work day to: - migrate from single disk to zfs-on-root - migrate from gmirror to zfs-on-root - create new boot environment - rebuild world to get back to stock - use freebsd-update to get latest updates - upgrade pkg - upgrade/reinstall all packages The longest part was rebuilding world to get things to a state where freebsd-update could work. Everything after that took maybe an hour. I was quite impressed by how quickly and easily things were updated/installed using the binary tools. Once you start using the binary tools and treat the FreeBSD systems like Debian systems, everything works the same, with the same ease-of-use. I did the same at home, going from FreeBSD 9.1 to PC-BSD 9.1 to TruOS 9 (rolling release) to PC-BSD 9.2. Didn't have to compile a thing. The more I use only the binary tools, the more impressed with FreeBSD I get. And I've been using it since 3.1/4.0 (although I do have 2.2 on CD). The pkg team have been doing sine wonderful things. Once they stop changing the config files, things will get even better. :) Typos and terseness brought to you by the LG G2 running SlimKat. ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Ok then, well then you should be using pkg if you want to do a fair apples to apples comparison. as i said, pkg also fails every day in weird and wonderful ways. That is quite annoying! I don't happen to use FreeBSD update, but honestly posting a log of this as a fresh message to the lists (without the vitriol) might get you some attention. i do not want attention. i want things to just frelling work. I happened to have a huge problem with the installer, posted about it and no one did anything until I posted a pretty hilarious screencast of me trying to use it while it did everything in its power to do anything BUT partition disks. talk about having to stand on your left foot while chewing gum. you had to make a movie to get someone to look at a bug. and you're proud of it? my point is simple. there will always be a few bugs. otoh, with freebsd ports, there may be a few working paths, but they are damned hard to find. and there is very viable competition. many long time freebsd users are leaving, yes sadly, but leaving. the window is closing. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On Sun, Mar 23, 2014 at 03:49:34AM +0900, Randy Bush wrote: and i have two 9 systems where i try to use freebsd-update. also a time-consuming rabbit hole leading nowhere pleasant. e.g. # freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE-p3 Lose the -p3, because freebsd-update will get you to the lastet patch level. If you don't like this behaviour, you can use svn. So: # freebsd-update upgrade -r 9.2-RELEASE Please remeber, all hardware sucks, all software sucks. If you think that some piece of HW, SW or FW does not suck, it is because you have acclimated yourself to that piece of, oops I'm starting to digress. FWIW, I've been using FreeBSD since 1.x times and at that time I cursed why ports would only work on 2.x, not on 1.x, because ports handed the depenedcy hell when compiling that piece of, aand I'm digressing again. -- In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001 ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 03/22/2014 01:57 PM, Fernando Apesteguía wrote: On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Nathan Whitehorn nwhiteh...@freebsd.org wrote: On 03/22/14 11:12, Randy Bush wrote: snip At least testing branches would be appreciated. Something like ivoras@ suggested two years ago? http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2010-March/060296.html Something like this? http://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/branches/2014Q1/ -- Fuzzy love, -CyberLeo Technical Administrator CyberLeo.Net Webhosting http://www.CyberLeo.Net cyber...@cyberleo.net Furry Peace! - http://www.fur.com/peace/ ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 03/22/14 14:00, CyberLeo Kitsana wrote: On 03/22/2014 01:57 PM, Fernando Apesteguía wrote: On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Nathan Whitehorn nwhiteh...@freebsd.org wrote: On 03/22/14 11:12, Randy Bush wrote: snip At least testing branches would be appreciated. Something like ivoras@ suggested two years ago? http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2010-March/060296.html Something like this? http://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/branches/2014Q1/ No, not like that. A continuously updated moving branch one step down in experimentation. -Nathan ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: [snip] there will always be a few bugs. otoh, with freebsd ports, there may be a few working paths, but they are damned hard to find. and there is very viable competition. many long time freebsd users are leaving, yes sadly, but leaving. the window is closing. I'm not endorsing Randy's bedside manner on this one ;-), but he's correct that the pkg transition has been a bit of a POLA violation. It assumes that people have the skill and time to hunt for shims and workarounds. pkg will be a great step forward for busy sysadmins -- but the transition itself has been a failure of empathy for them. Some poor guy hops on his FreeBSD box to get a vulnerability patched -- and steps on a landmine of indeterminate time expenditure with few breadcrumbs. Even if he *has* been monitoring the lists. IMO, we should have waited until we could automatically handle common failure modes of the transition. To this day, I still have an 8.3 jail that complains: pkg: PACKAGESITE in pkg.conf is deprecated. Please create a repository configuration file ... but I don't actually have a pkg.conf in that jail, and 'grep -r PACKAGESITE /' yields no hits. And why tell someone to create a file, without including a recommended path? Or better yet ... check to see if I already had one, and prompt me to create one if I don't? If FreeBSD built more tools that empathize with non-developers, they'd have more time to develop. :-) Royce ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 22/03/2014 23:15, Royce Williams wrote: To this day, I still have an 8.3 jail that complains: pkg: PACKAGESITE in pkg.conf is deprecated. Please create a repository configuration file ... but I don't actually have a pkg.conf in that jail, and 'grep -r PACKAGESITE /' yields no hits. It will complain in this manner if PACKAGESITE is defined in the environment. Yes, the message should be clearer about what exactly is wrong and what to do about it. And why tell someone to create a file, without including a recommended path? Or better yet ... check to see if I already had one, and prompt me to create one if I don't? So you mean you've already got a repository.conf file? I which case the error message is really inappropriate. All I can say is that the message dates from when the switch from pkg.conf to the /usr/local/etc/pkg/repos/ directory was first introduced and assumes you have an old style setup which needs to be updated. PACKAGESITE support in pkg.conf has been dropped entirely in 1.3 which is in alpha at the moment. I need to double check, but that should mean those error messages will go away too. Cheers, Matthew -- Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Hi, On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 03:19:21 +0900 Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: What about using pkg(1) and what version of FreeBSD are you on? what about standing on my left foot and chewing gum? you're down in the kinky world where the customer has to spend serious time and energy to get around brokenness in your product. this is a well-known recipe for losing customers. Finally, are you using portupgrade? and pkg. it all sucks. and it sucks the customer's time. strange. Whenever I come in touch with Linux, I have the feeling that the people better would have kept Windows on their machine. Erich ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
strange. Whenever I come in touch with Linux, I have the feeling that the people better would have kept Windows on their machine. the first time i logged on to a linux system, i said `ls`, it came out in color, and i walked away. i have been a freebsd lover for a couple of decades, and 4.3 before that. but in the last couple of years it has become really painful. and .bashrc has helped me not have broken fingers on linux, and the bottom line is a *lot* less pain. at least once a month, i have to do port security updates on over a dozen freebsd systems. it takes most of a day if i am lucky. the linux systems update automagically and send me email telling me what they did. i value my time. if i did not value freebsd, i would just walk away saying nothing. but the community seems to be in some sort of fantasy that things are OK and nirvana is just around the corner. linux has matured, believe it or not. freebsd, ports in particular, has rotted. and folk are voting with their feet. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On Mar 22, 2014, at 2:44 PM, Nathan Whitehorn nwhiteh...@freebsd.org wrote: On 03/22/14 14:00, CyberLeo Kitsana wrote: On 03/22/2014 01:57 PM, Fernando Apesteguía wrote: On Sat, Mar 22, 2014 at 7:50 PM, Nathan Whitehorn nwhiteh...@freebsd.org wrote: On 03/22/14 11:12, Randy Bush wrote: snip At least testing branches would be appreciated. Something like ivoras@ suggested two years ago? http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2010-March/060296.html Something like this? http://svnweb.freebsd.org/ports/branches/2014Q1/ No, not like that. A continuously updated moving branch one step down in experimentation. -Nathan I believe it is indeed what you are looking for [in spirit and in theory at least], hence the branch description: This is a stable branch which will be maintained for 3 months... and various commit descriptions marked MFH i.e. merged from head ranging from 3 months to 3 days ago. Now, whether or not this branch lives up to it's intent is another story all together. That part, I couldn't say because... I, for one, admit to just now learning of this branch's existence. Then again, I never went looking for such a thing since, despite maintaining the deployment of 1300 ports on 130 servers [from a seat on a golf cart during the trips between the front and back nine], I so very seldom stumble upon a failure in ports HEAD that isn't fixed within mere moments or that I can't conveniently back-burner and have solved for me over the course of a day by a quick holler to the helpful and friendly folk on freebsd-ports@, but I guess that's just me. FWIW, I only use 9.2 in production and I do share your underlying sentiment that 9.2 should still be the release marked Production and 10.0 should have been marked New Technology at least until 10.1. I think I recall the issue that triggered this long and windy thread was clang related. At least FreeBSD has notoriously thorough and long-lived legacy support. FWIW, in my job I still use the old pkg_ tools, don't need portmaster, poudriere or any of that young punk noise, just the base tools with an occasional dash of svn. I've never felt an uncomfortable stampede of masses forcing my grumpy old self onto newer and better tech before I was good and ready for it, like happens to me while involved with many of the various types of Linix deployments I maintain, though the fear of such a thing happening to FreeBSD has always been real, what with the rapid pace of its development happening these days along with some people's ever-present nagging to keep up with the Linuxes regarding this or that latest shiny red button. FWIW, and I believe it's worth a lot, on the two VM's I fiddle with 10.x on, I've found all of the new tools to be relatively easy to learn, well engineered, well maintained and [for better or worse] rapidly evolving, only not quite as well tested as I might like, and on that last point I can concede that I understand the OP's pain. I, for one, would like to thank all of the devs at FreeBSD for creating and maintaining the smoothest, most flexible and overall best operating system I've ever had the pleasure of working with. I am very much looking forward to deploying 10.1 on almost every one of the production systems I maintain and I'm confident that when 10.x is granted that .1 badge by release engineering that I will confidently and smoothly be able to. I can't imagine where I'd be in a rigid world of only the fractured Linux fiefdoms, oligarchies and hipster drum-circles. Probably dead under a bridge with a needle in my arm, a gun in my mouth, a noose around my neck and an empty bottle of pills laying beside me. ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On Mar 22, 2014, at 5:40 PM, Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: strange. Whenever I come in touch with Linux, I have the feeling that the people better would have kept Windows on their machine. +1, liked, upvoted, favorited, pinned, retweeted the first time i logged on to a linux system, i said `ls`, it came out in color, and i walked away. Wait, what? Are you saying that like it's a good or a bad thing? i have been a freebsd lover for a couple of decades, and 4.3 before that. but in the last couple of years it has become really painful. and .bashrc has helped me not have broken fingers on linux, and the bottom line is a *lot* less pain. Bash makes me want to do its namesake to my own skull against a concrete wall. at least once a month, i have to do port security updates on over a dozen freebsd systems. it takes most of a day if i am lucky. It's your job right? I presume you get paid for it and there was a reason you or somebody chose FreeBSD on those systems. the linux systems update automagically and send me email telling me what they did. Oh, so you've never been burned by hippy magic? In that case I have some beans I'd like to sell you that will fix all of your problems and some powder that goes up your nose that will fulfill your every desire. i value my time. So much so that you seem to feel that bitching is a better way to spend it than helping would be. Lawlz. if i did not value freebsd, i would just walk away saying nothing. but the community seems to be in some sort of fantasy that things are OK and nirvana is just around the corner. linux has matured, believe it or not. freebsd, ports in particular, has rotted. and folk are voting with their feet. Good riddance. I hope you'll let us know how that works out for you. randy Oh randy, I'm only picking on you because of your delivery, in my pursuit of a balanced discussion. I admit to understanding your pain and appreciating your valid, practical opinion and observant perspective. I, the folk at FreeBSD and their supporters all appreciate your input, I'm certain. However I, for one, am not in a fantasy and I know the nirvana we all seek is not just a leisurely stroll around the nearest corner. It will take the hard work and perseverance of you, I and many of these far greater minds around us. Perhaps I'm just drunk off the koolaid and you're right to be headed for the lifeboats but I feel right at home and in good hands with the team and community here at FreeBSD. -Chad ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Hi, On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 09:40:36 +0900 Randy Bush ra...@psg.com wrote: strange. Whenever I come in touch with Linux, I have the feeling that the people better would have kept Windows on their machine. the first time i logged on to a linux system, i said `ls`, it came out in color, and i walked away. it was not that easy for me. It simply did not want to get installed. i have been a freebsd lover for a couple of decades, and 4.3 before I know BSD since 79 when 'my' professor brought a tape from Berkeley along and installed the system on a PDP-11. that. but in the last couple of years it has become really painful. and .bashrc has helped me not have broken fingers on linux, and the bottom line is a *lot* less pain. Bash? Just install it. I know some users of bash on FreeBSD. They do not have complains. at least once a month, i have to do port security updates on over a dozen freebsd systems. it takes most of a day if i am lucky. I have written me a set of scripts which do this by using portupgrade. All I have to do is to start the script of choice. Of course, if your memory is good, you can enter the full portupgrade command line directly. You can run this also automatically wasting not a single second of your time. the linux systems update automagically and send me email telling me what they did. i value my time. Why are you then on Linux and why do you try to use FreeBSD in a troublesome fashion? if i did not value freebsd, i would just walk away saying nothing. but the community seems to be in some sort of fantasy that things are OK and nirvana is just around the corner. linux has matured, believe it or not. freebsd, ports in particular, has rotted. and folk are voting with their feet. Yeah, you must have real good feet if you want to stay with Linux. It is sad to see how much effort they have to put into their systems just to follow the latest trends. They do not even check if a trend will make a change for them. FreeBSD is just FreeBSD, year for year. Erich ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
reason 23 why we've moved to linux
/usr/ports# svn up Updating '.': Error validating server certificate for 'https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org:443': - The certificate has an unknown error. Certificate information: - Hostname: svnmir.ysv.FreeBSD.org - Valid: from Jul 29 22:01:21 2013 GMT until Dec 13 22:01:21 2040 GMT - Issuer: clusteradm, FreeBSD.org, CA, US(cluster...@freebsd.org) - Fingerprint: 1C:BD:85:95:11:9F:EB:75:A5:4B:C8:A3:FE:08:E4:02:73:06:1E:61 (R)eject or accept (t)emporarily? t Error validating server certificate for 'https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org:443': - The certificate has an unknown error. Certificate information: - Hostname: svnmir.ysv.FreeBSD.org - Valid: from Jul 29 22:01:21 2013 GMT until Dec 13 22:01:21 2040 GMT - Issuer: clusteradm, FreeBSD.org, CA, US(cluster...@freebsd.org) - Fingerprint: 1C:BD:85:95:11:9F:EB:75:A5:4B:C8:A3:FE:08:E4:02:73:06:1E:61 (R)eject or accept (t)emporarily? t Error validating server certificate for 'https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org:443': - The certificate has an unknown error. Certificate information: - Hostname: svnmir.ysv.FreeBSD.org - Valid: from Jul 29 22:01:21 2013 GMT until Dec 13 22:01:21 2040 GMT - Issuer: clusteradm, FreeBSD.org, CA, US(cluster...@freebsd.org) - Fingerprint: 1C:BD:85:95:11:9F:EB:75:A5:4B:C8:A3:FE:08:E4:02:73:06:1E:61 (R)eject or accept (t)emporarily? ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Ugh, that's a mess, I haven't seen that personally, but I just tend to pull from git, although that takes a long time. Using git lets me keep local changes easily. The other option that works is just using portsnap. I think portsnap auto or portsnap alfred should work for getting your the sources. The other option would be just try a fresh checkout against https://svn.freebsd.org/ instead of https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org/. bummer! lastly, just using pkg(1) works really nicely, if you're tired of dealing with port updates via source, then just try using pkg(1), it's basically just as nice as using apt-get these days, pretty nice stuff. -Alfred On 3/18/14, 9:42 AM, Randy Bush wrote: /usr/ports# svn up Updating '.': Error validating server certificate for 'https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org:443': - The certificate has an unknown error. Certificate information: - Hostname: svnmir.ysv.FreeBSD.org - Valid: from Jul 29 22:01:21 2013 GMT until Dec 13 22:01:21 2040 GMT - Issuer: clusteradm, FreeBSD.org, CA, US(cluster...@freebsd.org) - Fingerprint: 1C:BD:85:95:11:9F:EB:75:A5:4B:C8:A3:FE:08:E4:02:73:06:1E:61 (R)eject or accept (t)emporarily? t Error validating server certificate for 'https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org:443': - The certificate has an unknown error. Certificate information: - Hostname: svnmir.ysv.FreeBSD.org - Valid: from Jul 29 22:01:21 2013 GMT until Dec 13 22:01:21 2040 GMT - Issuer: clusteradm, FreeBSD.org, CA, US(cluster...@freebsd.org) - Fingerprint: 1C:BD:85:95:11:9F:EB:75:A5:4B:C8:A3:FE:08:E4:02:73:06:1E:61 (R)eject or accept (t)emporarily? t Error validating server certificate for 'https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org:443': - The certificate has an unknown error. Certificate information: - Hostname: svnmir.ysv.FreeBSD.org - Valid: from Jul 29 22:01:21 2013 GMT until Dec 13 22:01:21 2040 GMT - Issuer: clusteradm, FreeBSD.org, CA, US(cluster...@freebsd.org) - Fingerprint: 1C:BD:85:95:11:9F:EB:75:A5:4B:C8:A3:FE:08:E4:02:73:06:1E:61 (R)eject or accept (t)emporarily? ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
Ugh, that's a mess, I haven't seen that personally, but I just tend to pull from git, although that takes a long time. Using git lets me keep local changes easily. The other option that works is just using portsnap. I think portsnap auto or portsnap alfred should work for getting your the sources. The other option would be just try a fresh checkout against https://svn.freebsd.org/ instead of https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org/. bummer! lastly, just using pkg(1) works really nicely, if you're tired of dealing with port updates via source, then just try using pkg(1), it's basically just as nice as using apt-get these days, pretty nice stuff. alfred, i know you mean well, but svn is legit and we have been using it until the kiddies came over to freebsd from linux. now that they left linux, debian and ubuntu are quite usable, pretty stable, and the ports/package system makes freebsd's look horrifying. i am tired of dependency hell. i am tired of package management du jour. i have real work to do and even an attempt at a real life. i have been a bsd user since 4.whatever on the vax. it is no longer defensible in any situaion other than personal religion. and it's the ongoing ports disaster that has killed a really great system. sad. randy ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux
On 3/18/14, 9:56 AM, Randy Bush wrote: Ugh, that's a mess, I haven't seen that personally, but I just tend to pull from git, although that takes a long time. Using git lets me keep local changes easily. The other option that works is just using portsnap. I think portsnap auto or portsnap alfred should work for getting your the sources. The other option would be just try a fresh checkout against https://svn.freebsd.org/ instead of https://svn0.us-east.freebsd.org/. bummer! lastly, just using pkg(1) works really nicely, if you're tired of dealing with port updates via source, then just try using pkg(1), it's basically just as nice as using apt-get these days, pretty nice stuff. alfred, i know you mean well, but svn is legit and we have been using it until the kiddies came over to freebsd from linux. now that they left linux, debian and ubuntu are quite usable, pretty stable, and the ports/package system makes freebsd's look horrifying. i am tired of dependency hell. i am tired of package management du jour. i have real work to do and even an attempt at a real life. i have been a bsd user since 4.whatever on the vax. it is no longer defensible in any situaion other than personal religion. and it's the ongoing ports disaster that has killed a really great system. sad. randy I see what you're getting at, however I see a different picture with FreeBSD moving forward at a quick pace to close the gap in package management between itself and the Linux distros. I myself was initially upset, however as the changes have kept coming I am more and more impressed and thrilled with the effort put in. The changes by the ports+pkgng team have really come together to make a great product. I think we can agree that the past 6 months have been interesting and challenging, however more importantly they have been necessary growing pains that we have just now passed. If you want to vent, great, I hear you, but let's be honest about the state of things and not conflate with some weird transient issue with svn with the project coming apart at the seams, that would just be hyperbolic and not serve us any purpose. -Alfred ___ freebsd-ports@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-ports-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
