mount problems

2009-10-11 Thread Desmond da Peoples

How's it going?
I'm having probelms mounting media within the gnome environment.

The drive will grab the media but not read it nor unmount it.
I've edited policykit so that root:operator and perm 0660 are enabled.
Fstab has /dev/acd0 has been commented out.
Rc.conf has hal,dbus, and gnome enabled.
Kdm login manager if that helps any.



  
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Disk label inconsistencies

2009-10-11 Thread jaymax

I have a rather bizarre problem. I have been trying to upgrade forever w/
endless problems, but may have found the cause  of some of the problems.
Running O/S 6.0. 

My system disk is displayed in df etc as /dev/ad0 with slice & partitions as
ad0s1a, ad0s1b, ad0s1e, .. , etc. It is similarly displayed under /dev.
However, when I get to the disk label editor it shows up as ad0a, and slice
& partitions as ad0as1a, ad0as1b, ad0as1e, .. , etc. I've tried changing
these, even with the Fdisk editor but they seem to persist, perhaps when I
restore the dump files. 
NOTE: ad0a or add0asx ... etc does not show up under /dev .

Needless to say the following are standard messages from the upgrade
attempts
   Error mounting /mnt/dev/ad0as1e on /mnt/tmp : Input/output error
   Error mounting /mnt/dev/ad0as1f on /mnt/usr : Input/output error


Is there any solution to this short of reformatting the whole disk as new
disk from scratch.

Thanks!

"Disk label inconsistencies"
-- 
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Re: best FBSD version for commercial use.

2009-10-11 Thread Daniel Gerzo

Nerius Landys wrote:

My 2 cents, as far as I know 7.1 will be maintained longer than 7.2
according to the freebsd.org website.  That is, security fixes will be
rolled out for 7.1 a while after 7.2 reaches End Of Life.  That made
me decide to go with 7.1 when I had to make the switch from 7.0 a few
months ago.  8.0 was not out at that time.

>>

I don't think that is correct.  There must be something unclear there.


http://security.freebsd.org/

Near the bottom of the page mentioned above, there is a table.
RELENG_7_1 EoL is January 31, 2011, RELENG_7_2 EoL is May 31, 2010
according to the chart.  That is a difference of 8 months.


All of these seems to be correct, but it needs a little note. The last 
version from the X-STABLE branch gets the Extended lifetime support. 7.2 
is definitely not the latest release from the stable/7 branch, and that 
is the reason why it has shorter support life time. There, however, will 
be at least 7.3 which will potentially get longer support. And upgrading 
to 7.3 from 7.2 will surely not be a big deal. If you read the mentioned 
web page more carefully, you will see the following paragraph:


Extended
Selected releases (normally every second release plus the last release 
from each -STABLE branch) will be supported by the Security Officer for 
a minimum of 24 months after the release, and for sufficient additional 
time (if needed) to ensure that there is a newer Extended release for at 
least 3 months before the older Extended release expires.


--
S pozdravom / Best regards
  Daniel Gerzo, FreeBSD committer
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Re: error output redirection

2009-10-11 Thread George Davidovich
On Sun, Oct 11, 2009 at 11:36:52PM +0200, Stefan Miklosovic wrote:
> if error output of some program appear on screen, it is possible to
> print it also to some file simultaneously?

Depends on the program, but generally, yes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_streams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redirection_(computing)

> e.g if I "cat" file which do not exist, error is on screen, I want to
> add that error to some file (errors.txt)

Replacing 'cat file_that_does_not_exist' with 'badcommand'

  # redirect STDERR to a file
  badcommand 2> errors.txt

  # append STDERR to a file
  badcommand 2>> errors.txt

  # fun with file descriptors to have it both ways
  badcommand 3>&1 1>&2 2>&3 | tee errors.txt

-- 
George
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Re: error output redirection

2009-10-11 Thread Polytropon
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 23:36:52 +0200, Stefan Miklosovic 
 wrote:
> hi list,
> 
> if error output of some program appear on screen,
> it is possible to print it also to some file simultaneously ?
> 
> e.g
> if I "cat" file which do not exist, error is on screen,
> I want to add that error to some file (errors.txt)

See "man sh" (or "man bash" if you use it): The redirection
could be this:

$ cat nonexist.txt > error.txt 2>&1

The C shell has a different syntax:

% cat nonexist.txt >& error.txt

I hope that's what you have requested. :-)



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: music file in /tmp/XXX/

2009-10-11 Thread Polytropon
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 11:31:48 -0700, Gary Kline  wrote:
> is there a freebsd app that will take my music file, 18 of them in /tmp/XXX,
> all named ogg files, and burn them to a CD?
> [...]
> all are names so i figure they have the internet-title/siong-named
> database tags.  not sure.  i cant figure out howto use k3b to copy these 
> files; i've tried.  is there anything simpler that will burn files from
> /tmp/XXX/ to an audio CD?  I surrender.  (*)

Yes there is. So much for the "user-friendlyness" of GUI apps. :-)

I'll attach a simple shell script that has served me well over
the years. I do admit that it seems to be overcomplicated because
of multiple conversions. I've placed the file in my ~/bin and
gave it +x permissions. Use it in the directory you are currently
located at. It requires the presence of the following programs:
ogg123, madplay, sox, as well as burncd, cdrecord or cdrdao for
the burning (and atapicam for the last two).

Just try it, it solves your problem. :-)



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...


mp3ogg2acd
Description: Binary data
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Re: using own ntp server

2009-10-11 Thread Artis Caune
2009/10/11 kenneth hatteland :
> If I have understand ntp right it is possible to hook up my machines to the
> machine running the ntp server. nevertheless I am not able to find anywhere
> helping me with configuring these machines to connect to my server and I am
> still not bright enough to figure out the syntax myself. Does anyone know
> about a web page or anything that my Googling have missed ? Or perhaps  I
> have gailed to grasp nto correct, and all machines must be configured like
> the handbook says to connect to external machines ?

Take a look at OpenNTPD from OpenBSD. There are only two, three
configuration options. :)

For server:
listen on *
servers pool.ntp.org

For clients:
server 10.0.0.1




-- 
Artis Caune

Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler.
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error output redirection

2009-10-11 Thread Stefan Miklosovic
hi list,

if error output of some program appear on screen,
it is possible to print it also to some file simultaneously ?

e.g
if I "cat" file which do not exist, error is on screen,
I want to add that error to some file (errors.txt)

thank you
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Re: using own ntp server

2009-10-11 Thread Jon Radel

kenneth hatteland wrote:


If I have understand ntp right it is possible to hook up my machines to 
the machine running the ntp server. nevertheless I am not able to find 
anywhere helping me with configuring these machines to connect to my 
server and I am still not bright enough to figure out the syntax myself. 
Does anyone know about a web page or anything that my Googling have 
missed ? Or perhaps  I have gailed to grasp nto correct, and all 
machines must be configured like the handbook says to connect to 
external machines ?


Leaving aside two areas which could cover a multitude of complications 
should you pursue them, namely


1)  You start setting various security settings and make your ntp server 
effectively unreachable, or


2)  the ability of your local server to multicast time data,

your local ntp server should look like any other ntp server to which you 
have access (other than for less latency and jitter should your network 
be "normal").


Put

server IP_OR_FQDN_OF_LOCAL_NTP_SERVER_HERE

in the ntp.conf of your client machines and see what happens.  The 
"peers" query from the ntpq program should let you know if you have 
success or have somehow locked yourself out / blocked access.


Feel free to give us specifics of what you're doing if this doesn't work.

BTW, the above assumes that you mean setting up your various local 
machines to all use ntpd, but not all query outside machines.  If this 
isn't it, you're going to have to tell us what you mean by "hook up my 
machines to the machine running the ntp server."


--

--Jon Radel
j...@radel.com


smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature


Re: sysinstall colours

2009-10-11 Thread Kevin Kinsey

Alexander Best wrote:


Seriously?!?!?! All the problems with sysinstall, and your idea is to
change
the color? Are you trying to start a bikeshed? If so, I prefer pink.



-- randi


I'm painting the little girl's room next week and might have
some leftover interior latex, if that will do.  Oh, but, it's
outside, so prolly not.  Sorry.  Or, do you want your pink
bikeshed in the garage?  ;-)


current developers don't seem to have any interest in improving sysinstall. so
it's important to get new people involved in freebsd. and the way to do that
is with an attractive looking installer and an easy installation process imo.


I don't want to be harsh, but do you know what you're talking about?

Randi, for one, has taken on the zombie known as sysinstall with a
nice big shotgun, and is attempting to keep adding a few features 
here/there as needed to keep up with necessities while other developers 
(AFAIK) work on other projects, including, at last count, a couple 
differnet possibilities for installers.  It's apparently been rather 
daunting work, and, as a result, the new installer, whatever its name 
is/will be, isn't ready for inclusion with 8.0.


However, a day is coming ...

Kevin Kinsey


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using own ntp server

2009-10-11 Thread kenneth hatteland
If I have understand ntp right it is possible to hook up my machines to 
the machine running the ntp server. nevertheless I am not able to find 
anywhere helping me with configuring these machines to connect to my 
server and I am still not bright enough to figure out the syntax myself. 
Does anyone know about a web page or anything that my Googling have 
missed ? Or perhaps  I have gailed to grasp nto correct, and all 
machines must be configured like the handbook says to connect to 
external machines ?


Blessed Be
kenneth, Norway
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music file in /tmp/XXX/

2009-10-11 Thread Gary Kline
guys,

is there a freebsd app that will take my music file, 18 of them in /tmp/XXX,
all named ogg files, and burn them to a CD?

i've got like

/tmp/XXX/one.ogg
/tmp/XXX/two.ogg
.
.
.
/tmp/XXX/eighteen.ogg

all are names so i figure they have the internet-title/siong-named
database tags.  not sure.  i cant figure out howto use k3b to copy these 
files; i've tried.  is there anything simpler that will burn files from
/tmp/XXX/ to an audio CD?  I surrender.  (*)

gary



-- 
 Gary Kline  kl...@thought.org  http://www.thought.org  Public Service Unix
http://jottings.thought.org   http://transfinite.thought.org
The 7.31a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php

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Re: best FBSD version for commercial use.

2009-10-11 Thread krad
2009/10/10 Jerry 

> On Sat, 10 Oct 2009 06:06:39 -0400
> jhell  wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > I will agree with that. And raise that its not a good idea to be part
> > of the early adopter club for commercial use.
>
> Somebody has got to go first. As so aptly stated by Robert Crandell,
> chairman of American Airlines in the late 1990's, "If you're not the
> lead dog, the view never changes."
>
> --
> Jerry
> ges...@yahoo.com
>
> Let others praise ancient times; I am glad I was born in these.
>
>Ovid (43 B.C. - A.D. 18)
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>


hmm most of us in here aren't business men though. We are sysadmins, and
therefore the only thing we'd be risking is our job. Most people most of the
time don't need cutting edge features no matter how cool they are. Its all
about risk management. By that I don't mean eliminating risk and stagnating,
I mean taking appropriate risk for the application.
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FreeBSD Status Reports April - September, 2009

2009-10-11 Thread Daniel Gerzo
FreeBSD Quarterly Status Report

Introduction

   This report covers FreeBSD related projects between April and September
   2009. During that time a lot of work has been done on wide variety of
   projects, including the Google Summer of Code projects. The BSDCan
   conference was held in Ottawa, CA, in May. The EuroBSDCon conference
   was held in Cambridge, UK, in September. Both events were very
   successful. A new major version of FreeBSD, 8.0 is to be released soon.
   If you are wondering what's new in this long-awaited release, read Ivan
   Voras' excellent summary.

   Thanks to all the reporters for the excellent work! We hope you enjoy
   the reading.

   Please note that the next deadline for submissions covering reports
   between October and December 2009 is January 15th, 2010.
 __

Google Summer of Code

 * About Google Summer of Code 2009
 * BSD-licensed iconv (Summer of Code 2009)
 * BSD-licensed text-processing tools (Summer of Code 2008)
 * Ext2fs Status report (Summer of Code 2009)
 * libnetstat(3) - networking statistics (Summer of Code 2009)
 * pefs - stacked cryptographic filesystem (Summer of Code 2009)

Projects

 * BSD# Project
 * Clang replacing GCC in the base system
 * FreeBSD TDM Framework
 * Grand Central Dispatch - FreeBSD port
 * libprocstat(3) - process statistics
 * New BSD licensed debugger
 * NFSv4 ACLs
 * The Newcons project
 * VirtualBox on FreeBSD

FreeBSD Team Reports

 * FreeBSD Bugbusting Team
 * FreeBSD KDE Team
 * FreeBSD Ports Management Team
 * Release Engineering Status Report
 * The FreeBSD Foundation Status Report

Network Infrastructure

 * Enhancing the FreeBSD TCP Implementation
 * Modular Congestion Control
 * Network Stack Virtualization
 * Stream Control Transmission Protocol (SCTP)

Kernel

 * FreeBSD/ZFS
 * hwpmc for MIPS

Documentation

 * The FreeBSD Dutch Documentation Project
 * The FreeBSD German Documentation Project
 * The FreeBSD Hungarian Documentation Project
 * The FreeBSD Spanish Documentation Project

Architectures

 * FreeBSD/sparc64

Ports

 * FreeBSD Gecko Project
 * Portmaster - utility to assist users with managing ports
 * Valgrind suite on FreeBSD

Miscellaneous

 * EuroBSDcon 2009
 * FreeBSD Developer Summit, Cambridge UK
 * New approach to the locale database
 * The FreeBSD Forums
 __

About Google Summer of Code 2009

   URL: http://socghop.appspot.com/org/home/google/gsoc2009/freebsd
   URL: http://wiki.freebsd.org/SummerOfCode2009Projects

   Contact: Brooks Davis 
   Contact: Tim Kientzle 
   Contact: Robert Watson 

   2009 was The FreeBSD Project's fifth year of participation in the
   Google Summer of Code. We had a total of 17 successful projects. Some
   GSoC code will be shipping with FreeBSD 8.0-RELEASE and others will be
   integrated into future releases.

   The FreeBSD GSoC admin team would like to thank Google and our students
   and mentors of another great year!
 __

BSD# Project

   URL: http://code.google.com/p/bsd-sharp/
   URL: http://www.mono-project.org/

   Contact: Romain Tartičre 

   The BSD# Project is devoted to porting the Mono .NET framework and
   applications to the FreeBSD operating system.

   During the past year, the BSD# Team continued to track the Mono
   development and the lang/mono port have almost always been up-to-date
   (we however had to skip mono-2.2 because of some regression issues in
   this release). Most of our patches have been merged in the mono trunk
   upstream, and should be included in the upcoming mono-2.6 release.

   In the meantime, a few more .NET related ports have been updated or
   added to the FreeBSD ports tree. These ports include:
 * www/xsp and www/mod_mono that make it possible to use FreeBSD for
   hosting ASP.NET application;
 * lang/boo, a CLI-targeted programming language similar to Python;
 * lang/mono-basic, the Visual Basic .NET Framework for Mono;
 * devel/monodevelop, an Integrated Development Environment for .NET;
 * and much more...

Open tasks:

1. Test mono ports and send feedback (we are especially interested in
   tests where NOPORTDOCS / WITH_DEBUG is enabled).
2. Port the mono-debugger to FreeBSD.
3. Build a debug live-image of FreeBSD so that Mono hackers without a
   FreeBSD box can help us fixing bugs more efficiently.
 __

BSD-licensed iconv (Summer of Code 2009)

   URL: http://wiki.freebsd.org/G%C3%A1borSoC2009

   Contact: Gábor Kövesdán 

   The code has been extracted from NetBSD and has been transformed into
   an independent shared library. The basic encodings are wel

Re: ASUS M4A78T-E Motherboard

2009-10-11 Thread Mario Lobo
On Saturday 10 October 2009 22:51:49 Bryan Cassidy wrote:
> Hi, I am in the process of building a new PC and I am building this
> machine (one of three... second will be OpenBSD Firewall for FreeBSD and a
> third one for Windows.. you know games and all that stuff) and I am
>  wondering if I will have any problems with this motherboard amd its
>  chipset. North Bridge is AMD 790GX and South Bridge is AMD SB750. it comes
>  with a VIA VT1708S onboard soundcard and the handbook states the VIA
>  VT1708 is supported so I am hoping it is the case with this one. Second,
>  ATI Radeon HD 3300 onboard video. I keep coming up with info that states
>  it is suppported and last is the Atheros L1E onboard LAN card.
> 
> I will give you a rundown of what I want to do and maybe I can get some
>  advice on hardware and how I approach this. I mainly use FreeBSD for my
>  daily machine because I just enjoy using FreeBSD and it is just what I
>  need for a day to day use. I have a 23" LCD right now hookup via VGA on my
>  laptop and when the machine I am building is done I would like to run a
>  triple LCD setup. I've always wanted to run OpenBSD as a firewall and so I
>  would like to build a basic machine with no sound, and no video to serve
>  this purpose. I would like to also run Apache and run my own website. The
>  third machine for Windows I might just partition one of my hard drives (I
>  will be getting 3 Seagate Barracuda LP ST32000542AS 2TB hard drives. Total
>  6 TBs.) and put Windows on it and just by another video card for extreme
>  gaming or something. I am kinda new to building my own PC so some opinions
>  on this would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Also, as a side note, the specs above would be just to get it started and I
> would eventually add my own PCI NIC card, PCI sound, and PCI Video card.
>  Any and all thoughts are welcome. Thanks for any help.
> 
> hoping that everything will work out of box with FreeBSD.
> 
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> 

Hi Bryan;

I think I have exactly the same MoBo. ASRock  AOD790GX. I am running FreeBSD 
8.0 RC1 amd64 and everything is working fine here. I use it as my desktop.

I've got it dual booting with XP because I need it for my Audio projects. I 
have an extra PCI sound card on it because of its MIDI port. In fact I use it 
as my main sound output on FreeBSD. I also have another sound card but FreeBSD 
doesnt have drivers for It but I only use it in XP anyway.


-- 
Mario Lobo
http://www.mallavoodoo.com.br
FreeBSD since version 2.2.8 [not Pro-Audio YET!!] (99,7% winedows FREE)
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Re: cdrecord returning inappropriate ioctl

2009-10-11 Thread David LeCount
> Maybe - just maybe - it's neccessary to recompile
> cdrecord?

I knew it would be something simple I missed.


  
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Re: cdrecord returning inappropriate ioctl

2009-10-11 Thread Warren Block

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Polytropon wrote:


The first thing that I've seen, allthough it may be completely
unrelated, is this:

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 07:18:42 -0700 (PDT), David LeCount  
wrote:

So I'm guessing it started when I upgraded to 8.0 RC1 from 7 stable.

   ^^^  
and then


Cdrecord-Clone 2.01 (i386-unknown-freebsd7.0) [...]

  ^^^
Maybe - just maybe - it's neccessary to recompile cdrecord?


After a major version upgrade, it's necessary to rebuild all ports.

-Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA
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Re: cdrecord returning inappropriate ioctl

2009-10-11 Thread Polytropon
The first thing that I've seen, allthough it may be completely
unrelated, is this:

On Sun, 11 Oct 2009 07:18:42 -0700 (PDT), David LeCount  
wrote:
> So I'm guessing it started when I upgraded to 8.0 RC1 from 7 stable.
^^^  
and then
 
> Cdrecord-Clone 2.01 (i386-unknown-freebsd7.0) [...]
   ^^^
Maybe - just maybe - it's neccessary to recompile cdrecord?



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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cdrecord returning inappropriate ioctl

2009-10-11 Thread David LeCount
I'm not sure when this started. I thought it might have started when I added my 
RAID controller which has SCSI emulation too, but the error still occurs when I 
remove it. So I'm guessing it started when I upgraded to 8.0 RC1 from 7 stable.

I have a Pioneer DVD-RW. Burncd doesn't support it so I've always used 
cdrecord, but a few days ago, it gave me this error:

[r...@bahamut ~]# cdrecord -scanbus
Cdrecord-Clone 2.01 (i386-unknown-freebsd7.0) Copyright (C) 1995-2004 Jörg 
Schilling
cdrecord: Inappropriate ioctl for device. CAMIOCOMMAND ioctl failed. Cannot 
open SCSI driver.
cdrecord: For possible targets try 'cdrecord -scanbus'.
cdrecord: For possible transport specifiers try 'cdrecord dev=help'.

Camcontrol works fine.

[r...@bahamut ~]# camcontrol devlist
at scbus0 target 0 lun 0 (pass0)
at scbus0 target 1 lun 0 (pass1)
at scbus0 target 2 lun 0 (pass2)
at scbus3 target 0 lun 0 (cd0,pass3)

I tried using cdrecord with lun 3,0,0 as reported by camcontrol and got the 
same error as with -scanbus. I'm thinking this is a bug with either cdrecord or 
the kernel, but I thought I'd check here first to make sure I haven't missed 
something.



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Re: gpart mbr scheme

2009-10-11 Thread Anselm Strauss
Aha, GEOM_PART_MBR is not enabled by default in the 7.2 kernel. That  
changes with 8.0:


http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/sys/amd64/conf/DEFAULTS.diff?r1=1.10.8%3ARELENG_7_2&tr1=1.10.8.1&r2=1.19.2%3ARELENG_8&tr2=1.19.2.1

I recompiled my kernel, now it works!


On Oct 10, 2009, at 22:08 , Anselm Strauss wrote:


Hi,

I'm trying to partition a compact flash card with gpart. When I want  
to create a new MBR scheme it always complains:


-> gpart create -s mbr da0
gpart: scheme 'mbr': Invalid argument

The GPT scheme works fine:

-> gpart create -s gpt da0
da0 created
-> gpart show da0
=> 34  8027645  da0  GPT  (3.8G)
  34  8027645   - free -  (3.8G)
-> gpart destroy da0
da0 destroyed

The kernel driver seems to be loaded:

-> kldstat -v | grep mbr
   278 g_mbr
   277 g_mbrext

Does gpart in 7.2 not support MBR partitioning?


Cheers,
Anselm


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Miro - BSD 8.X

2009-10-11 Thread Jeff Molofee
Has anyone had luck getting Miro to run in BSD 8.X... I can see up to 
"checking movies folder"... no error... nothing... it just stops... and 
drops back to the prompt... don't see any errors in the logs.


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Re: for perl wizards.

2009-10-11 Thread Gary Kline
On Fri, Oct 09, 2009 at 12:26:25PM +0200, Oliver Fromme wrote:
> Gary Kline  wrote:
>  > 
>  > Whenever I save a wordpeocessoe file [OOo, say] into a
>  > text file, I get a slew of hex codes to indicate the char to be
>  > used.  I'm looking for a perl one-liner or script to translate
>  > hex back into ', ", -- [that's a dash), and so forth.  Why does
>  > this fail to trans the hex code to an apostrophe?
>  > 
>  > perl -pi.bak -e 's/\xe2\x80\x99/'/g'  
> 
> You need to escape the inner quote character, of course.
> I think sed is better suited for this task than perl.
> 
>  > If there any another other tools, I'm interested!
> 
> That "hex code" rather looks like UTF-8.
> 
> For conversion between character encodings I recommend recode
> from the ports collection (ports/converters/recode).
> For example, to convert file.txt from UTF-8 to ISO8859-15:
> 
> $ recode utf8..iso8859-15 file.txt
> 
> To preserve the previous file contents, do this:
> 
> $ recode utf8..iso8859-15 new.txt


recode works just fine, thanks.  i'm not sure if openoffice asks
to use 8859-1 or utf8, but yes, the text is interspersperced with
bits of utf8.  

FWIW, I  did check this on google before my post; still couldn't
find anything that worked.  and of course, above, with the " ' "
i did try escaping the punctuation.  my shell gave me problems
regardless.  dunno ... so i asked here:-)

thanks to everyone,

gary


> 
> Best regards
>Oliver
> 
> -- 
> Oliver Fromme, secnetix GmbH & Co. KG, Marktplatz 29, 85567 Grafing b. M.
> Handelsregister: Registergericht Muenchen, HRA 74606,  Geschäftsfuehrung:
> secnetix Verwaltungsgesellsch. mbH, Handelsregister: Registergericht Mün-
> chen, HRB 125758,  Geschäftsführer: Maik Bachmann, Olaf Erb, Ralf Gebhart
> 
> FreeBSD-Dienstleistungen, -Produkte und mehr:  http://www.secnetix.de/bsd
> 
> "Python tricks" is a tough one, cuz the language is so clean. E.g.,
> C makes an art of confusing pointers with arrays and strings, which
> leads to lotsa neat pointer tricks; APL mistakes everything for an
> array, leading to neat one-liners; and Perl confuses everything
> period, making each line a joyous adventure .
> -- Tim Peters

-- 
 Gary Kline  kl...@thought.org  http://www.thought.org  Public Service Unix
http://jottings.thought.org   http://transfinite.thought.org
The 7.31a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php

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