Re: math/py-numpy vs. math/atlas-devel

2009-11-08 Thread Doug Barton
First, sorry I missed the original problem report, I'm not subscribed
to -questions. Usually ports questions (including those about tools)
are handled on freebsd-po...@freebsd.org, but OTOH if you're not sure
where to send a question it's always better to start on the -questions
list. :)

Second, thanks to b.f. for the very thorough analysis of the problem.
I will respond and trim a bit as I go.

Third, I've cc'ed maho@ since the genesis of the problem is that
math/atlas and math/atlas-devel aren't setting CONFLICTS when
apparently they should be. maho, if you need any help with this let me
know.

b. f. wrote:
> Scott Bennett wrote:
>> I would like to install science/gnudatalanguage but have been running
>> into various obstacles.  Lars Engels very kindly just fixed one of them
>> (devel/lasi) (Thanks, Lars!), so now I'm on to the next one, which may not
>> be a showstopper, but it's at least a nuisance.  One of the gnudatalanguage
>> dependencies is math/py-numpy, which, in turn, depends upon math/atlas.
>> However, I have math/atlas-devel installed and do not wish to revert to an
>> older, slower version of the ATLAS library.  Adding a "-x atlas-\*" onto
>> the portmaster command to build math/py-numpy fails to prevent portmaster
>>from trying to build math/atlas. 

As was pointed out, that definitely won't work. With the glob patterns
for exclusions, or specifying ports on the command line you want to be
as conservative as possible. Also, it's not necessary to include a *
at the end, portmaster will handle that for you.

>> Creating a
>> /var/db/pkg/atlas-3.8.3_1,1/+IGNOREME file in addition doesn't help.

+IGNOREME files are only relevant to installed ports.

>> How
>> can I force math/py-numpy to accept the already installed math/atlas-devel
>> libraries?
>> Thanks in advance for any help!

The easiest way for you to accomplish this would have been to use '-x
atlas', the second-easiest would have been to use the -i command line
option. See the man page for more information on that.

> Congratulations, you've managed to defeat three sets of safeguards in
> portmaster.
> 
> Problem #1
> 
> math/atlas and math/atlas-devel don't have proper CONFLICTS entries in
> their Makefiles (this should be fixed),

Yes, this analysis was essentially correct.

>  Problem #2:
> 
> You're using the -x flag incorrectly.  Or portmaster isn't
> implementing it properly when the port to be excluded is not actually
> installed, take your pick. 

The way that -x is implemented currently really depends on the user's
definition of the exclude pattern, and is designed to exclude things
as early as possible so as to avoid what would ultimately become
wasted effort. It's hard to justify modifying the code to guess that
something we've already started working on might match what we think
the user MEANT instead of what they SAID.

> Problem #3:
> 
> The +IGNOREME checks in portmaster aren't properly implemented for
> this case, so they fail to prevent math/atlas from being built.

s/properly implemented for/designed to handle/

If you think about this for a second, the entries in /var/db/pkg are
exclusively related to installed ports, so trying to use an +IGNOREME
file for this purpose doesn't make sense, although I can sympathize
with the OPs sense of desperation here. :)

> So what can you do while these problems are being fixed? 

Just to be clear, I didn't see anything that needs to be fixed in your
message, and I hope my explanation makes it clear why. If you think
that there are actual bugs that need to be fixed please feel free to
create a thread on -ports to discuss them.


hope this helps,

Doug

PS, Can't resist ...
http://dougbarton.us/portmaster-proposal.html

-- 

Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with
a domain name makeover!http://SupersetSolutions.com/

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Re: Tracking commit messages from cli

2009-11-08 Thread Troels Kofoed Jacobsen
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:26 PM, Roman Neuhauser  wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:06:13PM +0100, Troels Kofoed Jacobsen wrote:
>> With pkg_version I can easily see which installed ports has newer
>> versions available, but what I miss is a way to see what has changed.
>> The reason for this is that commit messages often say that only the
>> pkg-plist has changed or something that does not make me want to update.
>
> ...
>
>> I know freshports exist, but I would rather not have to open a web
>> browser.
>>
>> Does such a program exist or do I have to write my own.
>
> sorry to point out the obvious, but why not use svn (or cvs)?
>

As I said: "without having to track the whole tree". I know this would
be a possibility, but would rather not use the convenience of
portsnap. Also if the solution should be more usable for other people
I would like it to be as simple as possible and not require so much
overhead.

Anyway, thanks for the answer -- maybe I'll just do that eventually.


-- 
Med Venlig Hilsen

Troels Kofoed Jacobsen
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Re: math/py-numpy vs. math/atlas-devel

2009-11-08 Thread b. f.
Scott Bennett wrote:
>I would like to install science/gnudatalanguage but have been running
>into various obstacles.  Lars Engels very kindly just fixed one of them
>(devel/lasi) (Thanks, Lars!), so now I'm on to the next one, which may not
>be a showstopper, but it's at least a nuisance.  One of the gnudatalanguage
>dependencies is math/py-numpy, which, in turn, depends upon math/atlas.
>However, I have math/atlas-devel installed and do not wish to revert to an
>older, slower version of the ATLAS library.  Adding a "-x atlas-\*" onto
>the portmaster command to build math/py-numpy fails to prevent portmaster
>from trying to build math/atlas.  Creating a
>/var/db/pkg/atlas-3.8.3_1,1/+IGNOREME file in addition doesn't help.  How
>can I force math/py-numpy to accept the already installed math/atlas-devel
>libraries?
>Thanks in advance for any help!


Congratulations, you've managed to defeat three sets of safeguards in
portmaster.

Problem #1

math/atlas and math/atlas-devel don't have proper CONFLICTS entries in
their Makefiles (this should be fixed), so the following code in
portmaster, from dependency_check ():


   1612 conflicts=''
   1613 if pm_cd $d_port; then
   1614 grep -ql ^CONFLICTS Makefile &&
   1615 conflicts=`pm_make_b -V CONFLICTS`
   1616 else
   1617 fail "Cannot cd to $d_port"
   1618 fi
   1619 for glob in $conflicts; do
   1620 confl_p=`pkg_info -I $glob 2>/dev/null`
   1621 if [ -n "$confl_p" ]; then
   1622 confl_p=${confl_p%% *}
   1623 echo ''
   1624 echo "===>>> The dependency
for ${origin}"
   1625 echo "   seems to be
handled by $confl_p"
   1626 echo ''
   1627 d_port="$pd/`origin_from_pdb $confl_p`"
   1628 fi
   1629 done

doesn't substitute your alternative dependency, math/atlas-devel, for
math/atlas.


 Problem #2:

You're using the -x flag incorrectly.  Or portmaster isn't
implementing it properly when the port to be excluded is not actually
installed, take your pick.  It's not completely fool-proof.  Since you
don't have math/atlas installed, the code in portmaster's
dependency_check ():

   1632 origin="${d_port#$pd/}" ;
iport=`iport_from_origin ${origin}`
   1633
   1634 if [ -n "$iport" ]; then
   1635 check_exclude $iport || continue
   1636 else
   1637 check_exclude $origin || continue
   1638 fi

   gives origin="math/atlas", and then uses:

385 iport_from_origin () {
386 local dir
387 dir=`grep -l "@comment ORIGIN:${1}$" $pdb/*/+CONTENTS`
388
389 # It should not happen that more than one port meets this
390 # requirement, but it can if the pkg data is corrupted.
391 dir="${dir%%/+CONTENTS*}"
392 echo ${dir#$pdb/}
393 }

to find that iport="" , so "check_exclude math/atlas" is called. Then,
in accordance with:

   1483 check_exclude () {
   1484 [ -n "$PM_EXCL" ] || return 0
   1485
   1486 local pat
   1487
   1488 for pat in $PM_EXCL; do
   1489 case "$1" in
   1490 *${pat}*)
   1491 if [ -n "$PM_VERBOSE" ]; then
   1492 echo "===>>> Skipping $1"
   1493 echo "   because it matches the
pattern: *${pat}*"
   1494 echo ''
   1495 fi
   1496 return 1 ;;
   1497 esac
   1498 done
   1499
   1500 return 0
   1501 }

check_exclude tries to match your patterns in PM_EXCL against
"math/atlas".  But you've got "atlas-" in PM_EXCL (after portmaster's
globstrip removed the trailing asterisk, negating your attempt protect
it with quotes), which won't match because of the hyphen.  It would
have matched if math/atlas were actually installed, in which case
iport="atlas-3.8.3_1,1" and portmaster would have compared iport with
*atlas-*.  You must use a port origin glob with the -x flag when the
port that you wish to exclude isn't installed.

Problem #3:

The +IGNOREME checks in portmaster aren't properly implemented for
this case, so they fail to prevent math/atlas from being built.  To
see this, Continue along in dependency_check (). Here, since iport="",
dependency_check () next calls "check_interactive math/atlas":

   1459 check_interactive () {
   1460 [ -n "$INTERACTIVE_UPDATE" ] || return 0
   1461
   1462 local update_to
   1463
   1464 [ -n "$2" ] && update_to=" to $2"
   1465
   1466 case "$INTERACTIVE_

Re: stuff and even more problems.... [ to mostly the hard core ]

2009-11-08 Thread Gary Kline
On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 09:57:13PM +0100, Polytropon wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:40:41 -0800, Gary Kline  wrote:
> >  it was .LT. sixty bux
> > and next-to-worthless given my disability.[*] 
> > [...]
> > [*] gotta type CTRL-ALT-Shift at just the right keyrate (+/- 
> > 0.0001s:)
> > to change ports.
> 
> What happended to the "old" fahioned way of having a simple
> knob that you can turn to one of the 4 positions? Too
> mechanically? Not "modern" enough? Not prone enough to
> errors?
> 

hah.  i had no idea what i was ordering--well, other than a KVM
switch.  doubt if my college friend did either.  what i bought 
was around sixty bux; the model with buttons Plus cables was around
$150.  und, zo, i guess do you get what pay for.  except that::
there was nothing in the ad about having to hit ctrl-alt-shift so
precisely.  live 'n' learn, guys.  they are looking to gouge you 
out of every last penny every which way they can.

> I sill have such a switch here, but I'm lacking the cables;
> they are maybe triple as expensive as a new "modern" switch
> including cables which requires a race across the keyboard
> in order to switch the targets.


i was typing the three keys in about 1/15th sec. too fast.
about 1/5th sec is too slow.  i can't guess the rate, but it's hard
to get just-right!  (here is where i would pull out my hair and yell 
AARGH ... but i'm too fried:)


> 
> Man, I sound sooo ld... :-)


> 
> Back on topic: With the use of an USB->PS/2 adaptor, you
> could be lucky; most USB keyboards function as intended in
> such a setting, but I've already found that not all of them
> do. Strangely, the older ones (such as IBM model M) do, but
> I had a "modern" Dell keyboard that didn't work with a
> converter as mentioned above, allthoug it should (and worked
> correct plugged in directly, and other keyboards workeed
> correct with the adaptor).


i think you have it backwards, polyt.  the kvm switch has 
PS/2 plugs; the dell has [[i think female]] slots/jacks.
tomorrow [OR monday/ here:)], i'll dig out the keyboard and 
plug its usb connector.  see if the crapy/bleepy "os" boots.
LOL.  

> 
> Strange stuff, produced by "modern" IT manufacturers...
> 
> You'll end up having to try it.
> 


i copy that, man.

gary

PS: One solid bit of good news is that Zeus is answering my 
prayers.  no power-outs here

> 
> 
> -- 
> Polytropon
> Magdeburg, Germany
> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...

-- 
 Gary Kline  kl...@thought.org  http://www.thought.org  Public Service Unix
http://jottings.thought.org   http://transfinite.thought.org
The 7.31a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php

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Re: a javascript issue wrt FreeBSD

2009-11-08 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman
It is *EXTREMELY* unlike the issue is with JavaScript because JS can not 
call on any kind of OS service (at least on the client side) are you 
running a web server that allows files/arbitary text to be uploaded 
(I'll bet thats where it came from)... now if the virus effects your 
browser only then what you described is possible... in that case (I am 
assuming your using firefox here) erase the ".mozilla" directory in your 
home directory (this will reset ff to all defaults)


Henry Olyer wrote:

A FreeBSD machine I have has caught a scripting virus;  And I'd rather
not save what I must and rebuild it -- though if I have to I will of
course.

Anyone got any ideas to find/isolate the virus?

Please copy me directly, my email service is limited until I can fix this.
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a javascript issue wrt FreeBSD

2009-11-08 Thread Henry Olyer
A FreeBSD machine I have has caught a scripting virus;  And I'd rather
not save what I must and rebuild it -- though if I have to I will of
course.

Anyone got any ideas to find/isolate the virus?

Please copy me directly, my email service is limited until I can fix this.
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Re: Migrating from Linux (keeping partitions at install time)

2009-11-08 Thread Carl Johnson
Ruben de Groot  writes:

> On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 10:18:21PM -0800, Carl Johnson typed:
>> Frank Shute  writes:
>> 
>> > On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 05:35:58PM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
>> >>
>> > [snip]
>> >> 
>> >> Not so sure I did anything for your most important question - if ext2 s 
>> >> ext3
>> >> is a problem, but I hope the rest is helpful.
>> >> 
>> >
>> > No, it's not a problem Jerry. ext3 is basically ext2 + journal, so you
>> > can mount it at as ext2 from within FreeBSD (or Linux).
>> >
>> > The journal sorts itself out when you boot Linux and it mounts the
>> > filesystem as ext3.
>> 
>> I haven't been able to mount some ext3 filesystems.  When I
>> experimented, it appears that most new ext3 filesystems default to 256
>> byte inodes.  When I created a filesystem with 128 byte inodes then
>> FreeBSD could mount it just fine.  I didn't try ext2, but I think the
>> inode is independent of ext2 or ext3.  This is for FreeBSD
>> 7.1-RELEASE, so maybe things have changed for 7.2 or 8.0.
>
> This has been patched:
>
> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=kern/124621

Thanks for the information, but I notice that it was put into stable
*very* recently, so I hope it gets into 8.0-RELEASE.  I wasn't too
worried about it since the workaround was obvious once I identified
the problem.  I actually prefer to use Reiserfs, but it appears that
nobody is working on rw access for it.  Like the original poster, I am
a Debian user who is experimenting with it, but from VirtualBox for
now.  I will probably try setting up dual boot when 8.0 comes out.

-- 
Carl Johnsonca...@peak.org


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Re: What happened to the colors in VIM 7.2?

2009-11-08 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman

Aflatoon Aflatooni wrote:

It looks like the color schemas in VIM 7.2 are missing?

Any ideas?
  


The seem to work for me:
VIM - Vi IMproved 7.2 (2008 Aug 9, compiled Apr 25 2009 13:00:07)

my ~/.vimrc:
colorscheme elflord
syntax enable
set backspace=indent,eol,start




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Re: What happened to the colors in VIM 7.2?

2009-11-08 Thread Aryeh M. Friedman

Glen Barber wrote:

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Aflatoon Aflatooni
 wrote:
  

It looks like the color schemas in VIM 7.2 are missing?

Any ideas?




Errors?  Symptoms?  $HOME/.vimrc ?


  
Related question does anyone know why elflord incorrectly identifies 
certain words that are not keywords (per se) in JavaScript (document, 
top, parent are the ones I can think of the top of my head) [at least I 
assume thats "yellow" {I am color blind so not sure if it is yellow or 
not} means]?... an other side question has anyone had any luck with 
using any other color scheme on a transparent xfce4 term window 
(everyone I tried blacks out the background {I make it transaperent 
because the pattern is easier on my eyes then a solid color})

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Re: What happened to the colors in VIM 7.2?

2009-11-08 Thread Glen Barber
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:52 PM, Aflatoon Aflatooni
 wrote:
> It looks like the color schemas in VIM 7.2 are missing?
>
> Any ideas?
>

Errors?  Symptoms?  $HOME/.vimrc ?


-- 
Glen Barber
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What happened to the colors in VIM 7.2?

2009-11-08 Thread Aflatoon Aflatooni
It looks like the color schemas in VIM 7.2 are missing?

Any ideas?

Thanks



  
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Re: How to configure sendmail

2009-11-08 Thread Warren Block

On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Olivier Nicole wrote:


but the alias for user2 is not parsed


newaliases(1) is needed after editing /etc/mail/aliases.  And there is a
bug if you're using 8.0:


Yes I did newaliases and the version of sendmail is the default with
FreeBSD, that must be 8.14.3


I mean there is a bug with sendmail not always sending to aliases on 
FreeBSD 8.0-RC2:


http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=bin/139870


Masquerade again.  Not clear whether that's what you want.


How to configure sendmail on a.domain.net so that:

1) users with an alias defined in /etc/mail/aliases have their
 messages sent to the alias;

2) users with no alias have their mail sent to u...@domain.net (same
 username).

It seems that masquerade does the part 2) but users in 1) are not sent
to the alias.


Maybe a mail hub setup in addition to the aliases will do what you need. 
/usr/share/sendmail/cf/README has more information.


-Warren Block * Rapid City, South Dakota USA
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Re: 8.0RC custom kernel not installing?

2009-11-08 Thread LoH
Problem solved, I didn't use the proper casing on the command line. I 
needed KERNCONF=ZFS, not kernconf=ZFS.


LoH wrote:
I compiled a custom kernel with ZFS enabled and installed it. 
Everything appeared to work fine, then I realized that I needed to 
make some more modifications (ALTQ, disabling ulpt). I made those 
configuration changes to the existing ZFS kernel config.


After running
make buildkernel kernconf=ZFS
and
make installkernel kernconf=ZFS

(ZFS is the name of the kernel config file)
I rebooted the machine but didn't see any change in the system config. 
I've also made sure I did the build/install as root.


I doubled-checked the config in the kernel directory, the config is 
properly done.


Any ideas?

--Joseph



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Re: How to configure sendmail

2009-11-08 Thread Olivier Nicole
Hi,

I apologize if I was not clear enough. I answer youe questions and try
to be more clear at the bottom.

> > I have this stupide little configuration that I cannot manage to get 
> > working.
> > 
> > I have one machine a.domain.net that I want to be able to deliver
> > system mail (like cron and so on) with the following rules:
> > 
> > - user1 on a.domain.net has the same username as on domain.net; I
> >   want that mail sent to user1 is delivered to us...@domain.net;
> An alias will do that.

Only I don't want to define an alias for each and every user.

> > - user2 on a.domain.net has no corresponding user on domain.net, but
> >   it has an alias defined; I want to mail sent to user2 is delivered
> >   to the alias.
> 
> Creating an alias for a nonexistent user seems to work here.

user2 aliases to an existing account on some other place.

> > - of course, mail addressed to a full address x...@y.z should be
> >   delivered accordingly, eventually using a mail relay.
> 
> > I tried using masquerade in submit.mc,
> I don't edit submit.mc, just .mc.

I shall try that.

> >  user1 is then rewritten as user1.domain.net,
> That's the masquerade...  Wait, is that a typo?  Should be 
> "us...@domain.net"?

Right, that was a typo.

> > but the alias for user2 is not parsed
> 
> newaliases(1) is needed after editing /etc/mail/aliases.  And there is a 
> bug if you're using 8.0:

Yes I did newaliases and the version of sendmail is the default with
FreeBSD, that must be 8.14.3

> Masquerade again.  Not clear whether that's what you want.

How to configure sendmail on a.domain.net so that:

1) users with an alias defined in /etc/mail/aliases have their
  messages sent to the alias;

2) users with no alias have their mail sent to u...@domain.net (same
  username).

It seems that masquerade does the part 2) but users in 1) are not sent
to the alias.

Best regards,

Olivier
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Re: csup a single file?

2009-11-08 Thread John W
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 5:42 PM, John W  wrote:
>
> In particular, I'm trying to get /usr/ports/UPDATING.
>

FIXED

I needed to specify 'ports/UPDATING'

*slaps forehead*

-John
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Re: csup a single file?

2009-11-08 Thread John W
On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 5:42 PM, John W  wrote:
>
>  date=2009.11.12.00.00.00
>

Oh, ignore that the date given is not-happened-yet. I have tried it
with various real dates too, I assure you (:
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csup a single file?

2009-11-08 Thread John W
I'm trying to use csup to get a single file at a certain date.

In particular, I'm trying to get /usr/ports/UPDATING.

I made a copy of /usr/share/examples/cvsup/ports-supfile and made the
following changes:

  # pick a server
  *default host=cvsup9.FreeBSD.org

  # Date to sync to
  # (jw) I use this so I can gradually update ports, instead of
  # getting too many things changing at once causing upgrade pain
  date=2009.11.12.00.00.00

I then run the command:

  csup -L2 -i 'UPDATING' path/to/my/supfile

I have also tried 'UPDATING*', '*UPDATING*', and '/UPDATING*' since
i'm not sure from the docs exactly what the -i pattern should look
like.

However, none of those work.

What I want is to get the single file /usr/ports/UPDATING as of the
date given in the supfile.

What am I missing?
Am I going about it entirely wrong?

Thanks
-John
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Re: splitting Mbox file thread-sorted

2009-11-08 Thread Karl Vogel
>> On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 14:13:39 +0100, 
>> Matthias Apitz  said:

M> Is there some tool or something in the ports which could split a Mbox
M> file into various pieces, but having the threads together?

   Mail::Thread is a Perl implementation of Jamie Zawinski's mail threading
   algorithm, as described by http://www.jwz.org/doc/threading.html.
   See http://search.cpan.org/ to track it down.

-- 
Karl Vogel  I don't speak for the USAF or my company
Cute Celebrity Couple Names #4: Naomi Watts + Paul Newman = WattsNew
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Re: networking won't come back up until reboot after ISP outage

2009-11-08 Thread umage

> When the connection goes down and comes back up it will take 5 minutes
> before my FreeBSD gateway box checks the lease and decides if a 
renewal is
> in order. This is automatic. If I am sitting in front of my computer 
and I
> want to speed this up I issue /etc/rc.d/netif restart on the gateway 
and it
> will come up and be happy in about 10 seconds, rather than waiting 
out the 5

> minute time out.

In my case the router does get the renewed ip, as I described earlier. 
However, even after waiting 8+ hours, the system will not recover from 
the outage properly (reason unknown). That's what this thread is all about.

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Re: FreeBSD-8.0-RC2 problems

2009-11-08 Thread Roman Neuhauser
On Fri, Nov 06, 2009 at 05:33:00PM +0530, Masoom Shaikh wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Last Saturday I installed 8.0-RC2 from source by compiling on 7.1
> installation. building and installing was smooth as always has been. Then I
> pkg_add'ed xorg and KDE4, this was painless too. I am very disappointed with
> my experience
> 
> problem # 1
> The problem is KDE4 is not able to display anti aliased fonts.

i don't use kde, sorry.

> problem # 2
> I observed that both FreeBSD8.0-RC1 and FreeBSD8.0-RC2, simply freeze due to
> no reason. The pain is I don't get a core dump. When it freezes the only
> option is to hard boot by reseting the power. This might need more
> information to guess the cause. I will give basic info. This is Dell
> Inspiron 1525 Laptop, with Intel Core2. My suspect mostly goes to wpi
> driver, no proof, just my gut feeling.

it might be the kbdmux, or hald.  these two things were troublemakers
during my recent upgrade from 7.x to 9.0.  kbdmux is in GENERIC, but
causes missed interrupts, which may make the machine appear dead.
hald is used by xorg.  hald may spin busily when it's out of sync with
the kernel.
 
> problem # 3
> starting with 8.0 wpi driver no longer is the interface, wlanX is to be
> created. this is not news, but every time I manually create the wlan0
> interface and spawn wpa_supplicant. This shuould be automatic, as I have
> followed the guidelines of rc.conf(5). I can provide output of
> rc_debug="YES" if someone is willing.

my wlan0 is created for wpi0 (I start the wifi with
/etc/rc.d/wpa_supplicant onestart wlan0):

wlans_wpi0=wlan0
ifconfig_wlan0="NOAUTO DHCP WPA"

what's in your rc.conf?

> How can i install all files under /etc from the source ?

cd /usr/src && mergemaster -i

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Re: x11/lxpanel build fails - wrong linux base?

2009-11-08 Thread Polytropon
On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 22:41:19 +, Chris Whitehouse  wrote:
> I have WITHOUT_ALSA=true in lxpanel's options and I have even changed
> the line in lxpanel/Makefile:
> 
> eco# diff Makefile Makefile.original
> 31c31
> < WITH_ALSA=off
> ---
> > WITH_ALSA=yes

Maybe that's the reason. The symbol WITH_ALSA is defined.
It does not matter with which value it is defined, so even
WITH_ALSA=I_DONT_WANT_ALSA would be equivalent to WITH_ALSA=yes;
try removing the whole line in order to not define the symbol.




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Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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x11/lxpanel build fails - wrong linux base?

2009-11-08 Thread Chris Whitehouse

Hi

I am trying to build x11/lxde-meta in a 8.0RC2 tinderbox. lxpanel fails
because it depends on linux-alsa-lib. linux-alsa-lib fails because

eco# make
===>  linux-alsa-lib-1.0.10.3_2 bsd.linux-rpm.mk test failed: default
package building at OSVERSION>=800076 was changed to linux-f10 ports,
please define OVERRIDE_LINUX_NONBASE_PORTS to build other linux
infrastructure ports.
*** Error code 1

[the above is make in /usr/ports/audio/linux-alsa-lib. Ports and source
for the host are exactly the same as the tinderbox.]

I have WITHOUT_ALSA=true in lxpanel's options and I have even changed
the line in lxpanel/Makefile:

eco# diff Makefile Makefile.original
31c31
< WITH_ALSA=off
---

WITH_ALSA=yes



so how do I stop lxpanel calling linux-alsa-lib?
Alternatively can I make it use linux-f10-alsa-lib by changing the
Makefile to point to linux-f10-alsa-lib?


thanks

Chris

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Re: Tracking commit messages from cli

2009-11-08 Thread Roman Neuhauser
On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 08:06:13PM +0100, Troels Kofoed Jacobsen wrote:
> With pkg_version I can easily see which installed ports has newer
> versions available, but what I miss is a way to see what has changed.
> The reason for this is that commit messages often say that only the
> pkg-plist has changed or something that does not make me want to update. 

...

> I know freshports exist, but I would rather not have to open a web
> browser.
> 
> Does such a program exist or do I have to write my own.

sorry to point out the obvious, but why not use svn (or cvs)?
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Re: Remote Desktop for Fedora 11 on External Hard Drive

2009-11-08 Thread Polytropon
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 12:27:34 -0600, Bryan Cassidy  wrote:
> I am currently using FreebSD 7.2 and I have just installed and
> configured Fedora 11 on an external
> hard drive so I can do some printing and other things. I was
> wondering how can I get full access
> to the Desktop (GUI) on FreeBSD for Fedora 11 on my external
> hard drive? Any ideas?

I hope I am not misunderstanding you...

If you have installed Fedora on a hard disk and you're running
this Linux from this hard disk (in a PC), and want to connect
to it and use its UI (on another PC that runs FreeBSD), you
can easily set the environmental variable DISPLAY so it does
correspond to the Linux PC and then run its applications (there)
and view them on the FreeBSD PC; this is mostly done through
a SSH connection, e. g.

freebsd% ssh -X myusern...@192.168.84.101
Password: 
fedora$ export DISPLAY=192.168.84.100
fedora$ krita
(now see krita runnin on Fedora on your FreeBSD's X)

In this example, 192.168.84.100 is the FreeBSD system, and
192.168.84.101 is the Fedora system.

You can as well run a complete window manager or desktop
environment. There are other tools in the ports collection that
allow things like full remote-desktopping.

BUT if you want to run programs from the Fedora disk on your
FreeBSD system, things get more complicated, allthough FreeBSD
has a Linux ABI (alternative binary interface). In this case,
you would mount your external hard disk and then execute programs
from it.



-- 
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Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
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Re: stuff and even more problems.... [ to mostly the hard core ]

2009-11-08 Thread Polytropon
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 18:40:41 -0800, Gary Kline  wrote:
>  it was .LT. sixty bux
>   and next-to-worthless given my disability.[*] 
> [...]
> [*] gotta type CTRL-ALT-Shift at just the right keyrate (+/- 0.0001s:)
> to change ports.

What happended to the "old" fahioned way of having a simple
knob that you can turn to one of the 4 positions? Too
mechanically? Not "modern" enough? Not prone enough to
errors?

I sill have such a switch here, but I'm lacking the cables;
they are maybe triple as expensive as a new "modern" switch
including cables which requires a race across the keyboard
in order to switch the targets.

Man, I sound sooo ld... :-)

Back on topic: With the use of an USB->PS/2 adaptor, you
could be lucky; most USB keyboards function as intended in
such a setting, but I've already found that not all of them
do. Strangely, the older ones (such as IBM model M) do, but
I had a "modern" Dell keyboard that didn't work with a
converter as mentioned above, allthoug it should (and worked
correct plugged in directly, and other keyboards workeed
correct with the adaptor).

Strange stuff, produced by "modern" IT manufacturers...

You'll end up having to try it.



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

2009-11-08 Thread Polytropon
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 10:57:54 -0600, Adam Vande More  
wrote:
> There are three basic branches, CURRENT STABLE RELEASE
> 
> You want release.  You shouldn't run anything else unless you're willing and
> able to help with testing, debugging, and development.

That's a quite generic answer, but basically I agree.

On a production system, in most cases RELEASE is the branch
you want to follow, beginning from X.Y-RELEASE and then
tacking the security updates X.Y-RELEASE-pZ. The tool
freebsd-update is very good for this task, especially
when you're not running a custom kernel.

STABLE is a good solution when you want to use a stable
system, but are interested in additions between the releases.
Things that are tested and found working are present in
STABLE and will often appear in the upcoming RELEASE.

CURRENT is interesting for you - as Adam said - for
testing and development, and if you are intendedly
interested in "bleeding edge" software. Note that it
can happen that a CURRENT system of today won't build,
but will tomorrow. It's the development branch.

In any case: You should re-install or re-compile ALL of
your applications when you perform the step to a new
release (e. g. 7.2 -> 8.0). You can install the 7-compat
port to avoid this (downward compatibility libraries).




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Re: and now for conky & gremlins

2009-11-08 Thread Walt Pawley
At 10:41 AM -0400 11/5/09, PJ wrote:
>Ruben de Groot wrote:
>> On Thu, Nov 05, 2009 at 09:26:15AM -0400, PJ typed:
>>
>>> Polytropon wrote:
>>>
 On Wed, 04 Nov 2009 18:25:58 -0400, PJ  wrote:


> output should be: 1  2  3 [4] 5 6 7 etc.
> is:1 2 3 4 5 6
>
> the calendar.sh is exactly:
> #!/bin/sh
> cal | awk 'NR>1' | sed -e 's/   //g' -e 's/[^ ] /& /g' -e 's/..*/
> &/' -e "s/\ `date +%d`/\[`date +%d`\]/"
>
>
 It's quite obviously. Let's try the last substitution
 argument in plain shell:

% date +%d
05

 But the command creates this:

 Su  Mo  Tu  We  Th  Fr  Sa
  1   2   3   4   5   6   7

 The leading zero is missing, so there's no substition that
 changes "5" into "[5]", because the search pattern is "05".


>>> Ok, I see... I'm not too good in programming. I guess I didn't notice
>>> the previous to the first days of November the date was always 2
>>> digits.. how do I get rid of the zero? Regex substitution or something
>>> like that?
>>>
>>
>> date "+%e" should do it.
>>
>Sure did  For the moment, I changed the [ ] to just plain >
>maybe that will avoid the disjointed row.

Not quite what you're looking for but ...

 cal | perl -pe 's/^/ /;s/$/ /;s/ '"$(date "+%e")"' /\['"$(date "+%e")"']/'

... generated ...

November 2009
  S  M Tu  W Th  F  S
  1  2  3  4  5  6  7
[ 8] 9 10 11 12 13 14
 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
 29 30

-- 

Walter M. Pawley 
Wump Research & Company
676 River Bend Road, Roseburg, OR 97471
 541-672-8975
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Tracking commit messages from cli

2009-11-08 Thread Troels Kofoed Jacobsen
Hi all

With pkg_version I can easily see which installed ports has newer
versions available, but what I miss is a way to see what has changed.
The reason for this is that commit messages often say that only the
pkg-plist has changed or something that does not make me want to update. 

Right now I'm reading the commit messages from the cvs web frontend, but
it would be awesome with a program that could say:
gd-2.0.35_1,1 <   needs updating (index has 2.0.35_2,1)
Commit messages between the versions:
blah blah blah
blah ... ... 
...

I know freshports exist, but I would rather not have to open a web
browser.

Does such a program exist or do I have to write my own. In the latter
case can anyone point me to an easy way to get raw-text versions of
commit messages without having to track the whole tree. Does freshports
e.g. have an api -- it has all the necessary information, just not
available in a suitable form (to my knowledge)

Best regards
Troels Kofoed Jacobsen
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kernel trap

2009-11-08 Thread Jesús Abidan
sorry for bothering guys, but i have a big problem here, i recently
installed freebsd on a box and i was very happy updating ports, when i
realized the system suddenly reboot, when i saw the dmesg it says:

Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
cpuid = 0; apic id = 00
fault virtual address   = 0x828dee24
fault code  = supervisor write, page not present
instruction pointer = 0x20:0xc0a27b0b
stack pointer   = 0x28:0xe4f2fb80
frame pointer   = 0x28:0xe4f2fb94
code segment= base 0x0, limit 0xf, type 0x1b
= DPL 0, pres 1, def32 1, gran 1
processor eflags= interrupt enabled, resume, IOPL = 0
current process = 48 (vnlru)
trap number = 12
panic: page fault
cpuid = 1
Uptime: 18m45s
Physical memory: 1522 MB
Dumping 203 MB: 188 172 156 140 124 108 92 76 60 44 28 12
Dump complete
Automatic reboot in 15 seconds - press a key on the console to abort
Rebooting...

I searched in google for something but it seems i need to dump the kernel, i
guess if it could be an HD issue.
By the way, the current process line has little variations
(g_down, fsck_ufs, vnlru

Any clue?
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7.2-p4 serial console not showing kernel messages?

2009-11-08 Thread Sven Hazejager
All,

I'm having trouble getting 7.2-p4 to run. I'm using nanoBSD, either
under VMware using a virtual serial null-modem or on an Alix
Soekris-like serial-only CF-based device, both show this problem: my
serial console does not display kernel messages, they all go to the
VGA console!

I'm using the nanoBSD cust_comsole function to enable the console.
Relevant files are shown here:

/boot.config:
-h -S57600

/etc/ttys, only one line is "on":
ttyd0   "/usr/libexec/getty std.57600"  xterm   on secure

These are still in my kernel conf, if I remove these I get no kernel
messages at all (kernel boots fine with this though):
device  atkbdc  # AT keyboard controller
device  atkbd   # AT keyboard
device  kbdmux  # keyboard multiplexer
device  vga # VGA video card driver

I have also tried to set this in the loader, no luck:
hint.sio.0.flags="0x30"

On the serial console, I see the boot manager (boot0) and the loader
just fine. "show" in the loader says "console=comconsole" so that
seems to be fine. However all kernel output goes to the VGA console. I
*do* get a login prompt after a while on the serial console though.

If I boot the same kernel over PXE on the ALIX, the kernel messages
*do* go to the serial console...

What am I overlooking?

Thanks,

Sven
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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

2009-11-08 Thread Robert Huff

andrew clarke writes:

>  > Don't bother with any of that. Just use portsnap. It's also part of
>  > base, and was written by the same person that wrote freebsd-update.
>  > It's lovely and much faster, although some people may argue with me on
>  > that.
>  
>  > For your system, use freebsd-update.
>  
>  Seconded.  Portsnap and freebsd-update are a cinch to use.

As for freebsd-update:
It has limitations; /inter alia/ see the DESCRIPTION section of
the man page.  If that's something one can live with, use it.
If it's not, then the OP really needs to get familiar with the
update-from-source method as described in the Handbook.  It's scary
at first (actually, it's still a teeny bit scary after ten years).
but it helps one understand what goes into making a working system
... which is a really good thing if something does manage to go
Horribly Wrong(tm).


Robert Huff

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devel/py-gobject error when pkgdb -F --- FREEBSD 7.2 STABLE ---

2009-11-08 Thread Jeronimo Calvo
Hi Folks,

Running pkgdb -F Im getting the following error:
I tried reinstalling devel/py-gobject, but did not help.
All dependencies are linked to py25-gobject-2.16.1, so I can not
remove that package as well.
Can somebody give me a workaround??


===>   py26-gobject-2.16.1 depends on file:
/usr/local/lib/gio/modules/libgiofam.so - found
===>   Generating temporary packing list
===>  Checking if devel/py-gobject already installed
===>   An older version of devel/py-gobject is already installed
(py25-gobject-2.16.1)
  You may wish to ``make deinstall'' and install this port again
  by ``make reinstall'' to upgrade it properly.
  If you really wish to overwrite the old port of devel/py-gobject
  without deleting it first, set the variable "FORCE_PKG_REGISTER"
  in your environment or the "make install" command line.
*** Error code 1

Stop in /usr/ports/devel/py-gobject.
*** Error code 1



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Re: Help understanding basic FreeBSD concepts (ports, updates, jails)

2009-11-08 Thread andrew clarke
On Sat 2009-11-07 19:19:52 UTC-0800, Randi Harper (ra...@freebsd.org) wrote:

> Don't bother with any of that. Just use portsnap. It's also part of
> base, and was written by the same person that wrote freebsd-update.
> It's lovely and much faster, although some people may argue with me on
> that.

> For your system, use freebsd-update.

Seconded.  Portsnap and freebsd-update are a cinch to use.

> For your ports tree, use portsnap. For installed ports, use
> portupgrade or portmanager. I'm more fond of portmanager, but it seems
> portupgrade has many more users. Both portupgrade and portmanager are
> available in the ports tree, not base.

I use portmaster and find it easy to use.  Not familiar with portmanager.
/usr/ports/UPDATING will often provide portmaster commands where
necessary and these can useful for upgrading some ports.  Maybe it's
easy to translate those commands to their equivalent portmanager commands.

Regards
Andrew
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Re: Migrating from Linux (keeping partitions at install time)

2009-11-08 Thread Giorgos Keramidas
On Sat, 7 Nov 2009 21:34:48 +, David Chanters 
 wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I am considering switching from Debian Linux to FreeBSD.  I am wondering
> if at install time, sysinstall is able to allow me to keep "/home" from
> my Debian installation.  "/home" on Debian is currently a separate
> partition in its own right, mounted as RXT3.  I only have the one hard
> disk in my machine.
>
> So, questions:
>
> 1. Can the installer be told to not touch "/home" at install time (I
> appreciate I would have to ensure I mapped the current /dev/hda2
> terminology to slices in BSD parlance)

Hi David,

Yes, you can use sysinstall to _carefully_ partition and label only parts
of an existing disk.  It is certainly possible, but it is also slightly
risky.  One mistake and you can wipe tons of useful data.

My own advice would be to *wait* until you have at least some way to backup
your existing data.  First make sure that you have a working and reliable
copy of your existing data (meaning "you can read *all* of it from the
backup medium and verify that it matches the existing files").  Then you
can start experimenting with partitioning tools.

We will be glad to have you as a FreeBSD user, and you asked at the right
place.  But losing data is always a bad thing, so it's ok if you keep using
Debian for a while, until you have a reliable backup of everything.

> 2. Does the fact that this is an EXT3 partition matter?  (I have read
> FreeBSD supports ext2, and ext3 is just ext2 with a journal, so it can be
> mounted as ext2 if needed).

I've seen ext3 partitions that are not mountable by our ext2fs driver.  So
your mileage may vary a lot here, depending on the exact on-disk format of
your partition.  You should probably keep this in mind when you prepare
your backup mediums too.  If at all possible, try to use a filesystem for
the backup storage that is readable by both Linux *and* FreeBSD.

VFAT is a possibility, but its file size limitations and partition size
limitations are often annoying.

Network-accessible storage is better.

If nothing else works, you can always dump a "raw" tarball on a disk:

linux# tar cf - / | dd bs=4m of=/dev/sda3

Then you can simply untar the "raw device" from FreeBSD.

> 3. Is it possible/beneficial to convert this to UFS once FreeBSD is
> installed?

There are a few benefits indeed.  The native filesystems of FreeBSD are
these days UFS and ZFS.  They are actively maintained, so you get the
benefit of bugfixes and extensive testing from everyone else who uses the
same filesystems.

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Re: Migrating from Linux (keeping partitions at install time)

2009-11-08 Thread Ruben de Groot
On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 10:18:21PM -0800, Carl Johnson typed:
> Frank Shute  writes:
> 
> > On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 05:35:58PM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
> >>
> > [snip]
> >> 
> >> Not so sure I did anything for your most important question - if ext2 s 
> >> ext3
> >> is a problem, but I hope the rest is helpful.
> >> 
> >
> > No, it's not a problem Jerry. ext3 is basically ext2 + journal, so you
> > can mount it at as ext2 from within FreeBSD (or Linux).
> >
> > The journal sorts itself out when you boot Linux and it mounts the
> > filesystem as ext3.
> 
> I haven't been able to mount some ext3 filesystems.  When I
> experimented, it appears that most new ext3 filesystems default to 256
> byte inodes.  When I created a filesystem with 128 byte inodes then
> FreeBSD could mount it just fine.  I didn't try ext2, but I think the
> inode is independent of ext2 or ext3.  This is for FreeBSD
> 7.1-RELEASE, so maybe things have changed for 7.2 or 8.0.

This has been patched:

http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/query-pr.cgi?pr=kern/124621

Ruben
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Re: Migrating from Linux (keeping partitions at install time)

2009-11-08 Thread Carl Johnson
Frank Shute  writes:

> On Sat, Nov 07, 2009 at 05:35:58PM -0500, Jerry McAllister wrote:
>>
> [snip]
>> 
>> Not so sure I did anything for your most important question - if ext2 s ext3
>> is a problem, but I hope the rest is helpful.
>> 
>
> No, it's not a problem Jerry. ext3 is basically ext2 + journal, so you
> can mount it at as ext2 from within FreeBSD (or Linux).
>
> The journal sorts itself out when you boot Linux and it mounts the
> filesystem as ext3.

I haven't been able to mount some ext3 filesystems.  When I
experimented, it appears that most new ext3 filesystems default to 256
byte inodes.  When I created a filesystem with 128 byte inodes then
FreeBSD could mount it just fine.  I didn't try ext2, but I think the
inode is independent of ext2 or ext3.  This is for FreeBSD
7.1-RELEASE, so maybe things have changed for 7.2 or 8.0.

-- 
Carl Johnsonca...@peak.org


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freebsd partitions on a dos/fat slice?

2009-11-08 Thread Peter
iH,
  Pulled an old disk lying around...
 and started mounting partitions in it.
The weird thing is that the first slice [~15GB] is said to be fat, but I
do have freebsd partitions on it:

denver:#mount|grep ad10
/dev/ad10s1a on /maxtor500GB (ufs, NFS exported, local, soft-updates)
/dev/ad10s1d on /maxtor500GB/var (ufs, local, soft-updates)
/dev/ad10s1f on /maxtor500GB/usr (ufs, local, soft-updates)
/dev/ad10s1e on /maxtor500GB/tmp (ufs, local, soft-updates)
/dev/ad10s3d on /maxtor500GB/data (ufs, NFS exported, local, soft-updates)
/dev/ad10s2d on /maxtor500GB/data2 (ufs, local, soft-updates)

denver:#fdisk /dev/ad10
*** Working on device /dev/ad10 ***
parameters extracted from in-core disklabel are:
cylinders=969021 heads=16 sectors/track=63 (1008 blks/cyl)

Figures below won't work with BIOS for partitions not in cyl 1
parameters to be used for BIOS calculations are:
cylinders=969021 heads=16 sectors/track=63 (1008 blks/cyl)

Media sector size is 512
Warning: BIOS sector numbering starts with sector 1
Information from DOS bootblock is:
The data for partition 1 is:
sysid 6 (0x06),(Primary DOS, 16 bit FAT (>= 32MB))
start 63, size 31455207 (15358 Meg), flag 0
beg: cyl 0/ head 1/ sector 1;
end: cyl 1023/ head 254/ sector 63
The data for partition 2 is:
sysid 165 (0xa5),(FreeBSD/NetBSD/386BSD)
start 31455270, size 31455270 (15359 Meg), flag 80 (active)
beg: cyl 1023/ head 255/ sector 63;
end: cyl 1023/ head 254/ sector 63
The data for partition 3 is:
sysid 165 (0xa5),(FreeBSD/NetBSD/386BSD)
start 62910540, size 913857525 (446219 Meg), flag 0
beg: cyl 1023/ head 255/ sector 63;
end: cyl 1023/ head 254/ sector 63
The data for partition 4 is:

denver:#

There are what appears to be a freebsd base install from Jul 19/20th 2007
on /dev/ad10s1{a,d,e,f}

denver:#ls -l /maxtor500GB/tmp/
total 2
drwxrwxr-x  2 root  operator  512 Jul 20  2007 .snap

denver:#ls -l /maxtor500GB/
total 38
drwxrwxr-x   2 root  operator   512 Jul 20  2007 .snap
drwxr-xr-x   2 root  wheel 1024 Jul 19  2007 bin
drwxr-xr-x   7 root  wheel  512 Jul 19  2007 boot
..

denver:#df -hl|grep ad10
/dev/ad10s1a  496M 11M445M 2%/maxtor500GB
/dev/ad10s1d  989M106K910M 0%/maxtor500GB/var
/dev/ad10s1f   16G 97M 15G 1%/maxtor500GB/usr
/dev/ad10s1e  727M580K668M 0%/maxtor500GB/tmp
/dev/ad10s3d  422G384G4.0G99%/maxtor500GB/data
/dev/ad10s2d   15G 11G2.5G81%/maxtor500GB/data2


running sysinstall also show s1 as 'fat'

I've been writing/reading a lot of data from it just fine - Curios why s1
is being detect as a 'fat' partition and not a fbsd slice.
Have not tried to put this disk into a windows/another box...

]Peter[

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Re: stuff and even more problems.... [ to mostly the hard core ]

2009-11-08 Thread perryh
Gary Kline  wrote:
> the keybd isn't the problem ...  problem is that on my KVM
> switch are only ps2 plugs.  on the back of the dell are USB
> jacks.  i need something to convert from the PS2 plug to
> fit into the USB   

Such things do exist:
http://www.amazon.com/Adesso-Adapter-connects-connectors-ADP-PU21/dp/B8ZPED
http://www.amazon.com/TRENDnet-USB-PS-2-Converter/dp/B0007T27HI
http://www.amazon.com/Ultra-USB-Male-Female-Adapter/dp/B000658ETS
http://www.frys.com/product/3470803
http://www.frys.com/product/3866207
http://www.frys.com/product/4161343
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Re: stuff and even more problems.... [ to mostly the hard core ]

2009-11-08 Thread Gary Kline
On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 01:50:43AM -0500, Robert Huff wrote:
> 
> Gary Kline writes:
> 
> > the keybd isn't the problem.  it is in the box with a bunch of
> > misc stuff i don't need.  problem is that on my KVM switch are
> > only ps2 plugs.  on the back of the dell are USB jacks.  i
> > need something to convert from the PS2 plug to fit into the
> > USB   
> 
>   Have you actually tried this elsewhere and had it work?
> Because I'm certainly no expert on KVMs, but that sounds like a
> "more likely to fail than succeed" scenario.
>   (I use a StarTech four port USB KVM, and would be interested in
> a good model that handles DVI/HDMI as opposed to 15 pin VGA video.)
> 

indeed not; and that is why i asked here.   i DID find some
ps2 <-> usb ... somewhere.  google that and you see what i
did.  unless i was hallucinating!

gents, i am and have been years behind the bleeding-edge
stuff.  the intel duo stuff has been around awhile so while it
isn't that bloody, it is new to me. 

it may be my KVM Stuff or not.  that's the $64.0 question.

gary


>   Respectfully,
> 
> 
>   Robert Huff
> 

-- 
 Gary Kline  kl...@thought.org  http://www.thought.org  Public Service Unix
http://jottings.thought.org   http://transfinite.thought.org
The 7.31a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php

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