RE: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (B> On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:10:04 -0600 (B> Brett Glass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote (B> (B (B> What you are asking for is something you can (sort of) get most of the (B> time from Apple or RedHat. If it's that important for you to be able (B> to keep your hands out of the code, I recommend either one. Just (B> recognize that the cost of the software is part of what's paying the (B> developers to (B> make it easy for you to keep track of what works and what doesn't. (B> (B> And, until you try to keep track of it yourself, so that you (B> understand it ain't nearly as trivial as you keep saying it is, well, (B> you're going to have a hard time selling your point of view here. (B (BYou know, (B (B This discussion is a bit silly. The entire reason for the ports (Bdirectories (Band ports manager is to act as a crutch for people. But there is no (Breason (Bthat with any FreeBSD system that you cannot just download the source for (Bwhatever package you want and build it from the instructions the (Bdeveloper (Bwrote. Ports are not in any way shape or form, a requirement. (B (B When you are building using the ports directories what you end up with (Bis software that is configured the way the person who wrote the port in (Bthe beginning thought would be the best way. That doesen't necessairly (Bmean that's the best way for YOU. (B (BTed (B (B (B___ (Bfreebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list (Bhttp://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions (BTo unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
--On Wednesday, April 20, 2005 07:20:24 PM -0600 Brett Glass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I consult with, and provide service to, quite a few sysadmins at small companies. Most of them won't bother to fix a FreeBSD system that's gone awry like that; they'll just reinstall. They do not have the time to investigate the subtleties of what went wrong. Then they're not sysadmins. Their box maintainers. If you really want to do a good job of consulting, you should recommend, when they format the box, that they install an OS they know something about. Trying to "sysadmin" OSes you are ignorant of is simply asking for trouble. Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Adjunct Information Security Officer The University of Texas at Dallas AVIEN Founding Member http://www.utdallas.edu ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
On Wed, 20 Apr 2005 17:10:04 -0600 (BBrett Glass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote (B (B> At 09:16 PM 4/19/2005, Joel wrote: (B> (B> >It sounds like a wonderful idea. (B> > (B> >Who's going to pay for it? (B> (B> The same guy who's paying all of the port maintainers now. ;-) (B (BYou can't see the irony in what you just said? (B (B> >Oh? Well, okay, MSWxp sp2 is not what I would call professionally (B> >crafted software. (B> (B> They're professionals; they're just not always competent professionals. (B> But they're light years ahead of FreeBSD on the issue of maintainability. (B (BWhat on earth do you expect to gain by saying such a thing? (B (B> With FreeBSD, the answer is almost always to wipe the system clean and (B> rebuild from scratch. (B (BThat is entirely dependent on the experience you have. If you know (BOSxyz intimately, you will go dig into whatever semantic junkheap that (Bsystem registers its stuff in, maybe dig out some old versions of (Blibraries, that kind of thing. If you aren't so familiar, you won't (Bwaste too much time twiddling things you don't understand, you'll just (Bwipe and re-install something. The pain of re-installing the entire (Bsystem tends to discourage wiping the entire system, however. (B (BIf you don't know OSxyz intimately, the threshold for the re-install is (Bmuch lower. That's all. (B (B> >I'm not going to lie. If it were possible to fund each of the BSDs (B> >enough to maintain professional backporting services for every release, (B> >I'll admit it would sure be nice. (B> (B> There's no need. Again, just maintain a record of the most recent (B> version of each port that will work on each release of FreeBSD that (B> has not been EOLed. (B (BGood. _You_ start this wonderful compatibility database. Maintain it by (Bhand until you realize it isn't as easy as you thought. Then write the (Bsoftware to maintain the database more or less automatically. At that (Bpoint you might try to sell your compatibility tracking database to the (Bdevelopers. (Free beer costs, you know.) Or, if you're smart about it, (Byou'll show your hand-built database early on and ask for suggestions. (BIf you do a good enough job structuring (and selling) it, you may even (Bfind someone willing to help build the software side, or at least get (Bsome developers who'll show you how. (B (BBut you should realize freebsd already has a competing database in place. (BIt's not very accessible to people like you and me who don't get our (Bhands into the code very often. But it is very accessible to the (Bdevelopers, so your database starts out at a significant disadvantage. (B (B> Simple. And make sure that the port collection (B> as a whole does not break itself when updated according to the (B> recommended procedure. (This is the least one could expect of software (B> of even mediocre quality.) (B (BIf you do the update according to the recommended procedures, things (Bdon't break. Or if they do, fixing it yourself just happens to be one of (Bthe essential steps in the recommended procedures. (B (BWhich is what I guess you don't get. (B (BWhen you use freebsd, you are part of the dev process whether you are in (Bdeep or just testing. Not nearly so much so, perhaps, as with netbsd or (Bopenbsd, but much more part of it than with RedHat or Mac OS X. (And (BMicrosoft these days has cut the end-users completely out of the loop, (Bwhich is why so many end-users are cutting loose from Microsoft.) (B (BWhat you are asking for is something you can (sort of) get most of the (Btime from Apple or RedHat. If it's that important for you to be able to (Bkeep your hands out of the code, I recommend either one. Just recognize (Bthat the cost of the software is part of what's paying the developers to (Bmake it easy for you to keep track of what works and what doesn't. (B (BAnd, until you try to keep track of it yourself, so that you understand (Bit ain't nearly as trivial as you keep saying it is, well, you're going (Bto have a hard time selling your point of view here. (B (B-- (BJoel Rees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Bdigitcom, inc. $B3t<02qhttp://www.ddcom.co.jp> ** (B (B___ (Bfreebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list (Bhttp://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions (BTo unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
At 05:58 PM 4/20/2005, Kevin Kinsey wrote: >Not in my experience. More oft than not, it's FreeBSD I "fix" and >that other OS I "flatten". > >But then, maybe we work in different environments, although >I'm betting my experience is more common than yours I consult with, and provide service to, quite a few sysadmins at small companies. Most of them won't bother to fix a FreeBSD system that's gone awry like that; they'll just reinstall. They do not have the time to investigate the subtleties of what went wrong. But again, I guess I believe (to bring things back on topic) that a standard, recommended procedure should never leave your machine, or a major subsystem thereof, unusable. It's not hard to fix this, though in this particular case it's not just a matter of setting code but setting a little policy. That's why, contrary to what one recent taunting message in this thread suggests, I can't just "go fix it." The fix has to be in the way things are done more than in the code. Ironically, in the FreeBSD world, this is the harder kind of change to make. --Brett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
Brett Glass wrote: At 09:16 PM 4/19/2005, Joel wrote: Oh? Well, okay, MSWxp sp2 is not what I would call professionally crafted software. They're professionals; they're just not always competent professionals. But they're light years ahead of FreeBSD on the issue of maintainability. With FreeBSD, the answer is almost always to wipe the system clean and rebuild from scratch. Not in my experience. More oft than not, it's FreeBSD I "fix" and that other OS I "flatten". But then, maybe we work in different environments, although I'm betting my experience is more common than yours; but then again, we're way OT and about to cross a troll bridge, aren't we? Kevin Kinsey ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
At 09:16 PM 4/19/2005, Joel wrote: >It sounds like a wonderful idea. > >Who's going to pay for it? The same guy who's paying all of the port maintainers now. ;-) >Oh? Well, okay, MSWxp sp2 is not what I would call professionally >crafted software. They're professionals; they're just not always competent professionals. But they're light years ahead of FreeBSD on the issue of maintainability. With FreeBSD, the answer is almost always to wipe the system clean and rebuild from scratch. >I'm not going to lie. If it were possible to fund each of the BSDs >enough to maintain professional backporting services for every release, >I'll admit it would sure be nice. There's no need. Again, just maintain a record of the most recent version of each port that will work on each release of FreeBSD that has not been EOLed. Simple. And make sure that the port collection as a whole does not break itself when updated according to the recommended procedure. (This is the least one could expect of software of even mediocre quality.) --Brett Glass ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:37:43 -0600 Brett Glass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You may not, but users of FreeBSD do. At the very least, > ports should be tagged as to the versions of the OS > with which they will work, and it should be possible > to retrieve the most recent version of the port that > works with the version of the OS you are running. Brett, if you want something to happen do something about it. You seem to spend a incredible amount of time and energy telling others how FreeBSD should be, yet you don't want to put up. > Having users update in the standard (and prescribed) > way and finding out that a major function (the entire > ports system) is no longer working is certainly not > something one would expect from professionally crafted > software. The handbook clearly states that current ports are only supported on -CURRENT and -STABLE. You might be lucky and get the ports to work on older releases. The OpenBSD people do the same, btw. Except if you try to use the current ports on a release they will sure fail to build. As someone who does ports work I can tell you that supporting RELENG_4 and RELENG_5 is enough work already. What you're asking for is not reasonable for a volunteer driven project. > Note that under Linux, the maintainers of distributions > do exactly this. However, FreeBSD is essentially its own > "distro," so the job of doing this falls to the FreeBSD > developers and the maintainers of the ports. If it is > not done, FreeBSD users will enjoy an inferior experience > to the one they get with Linux or even Windows. The situation is very different. Linux distros are a kernel + packages, because the concept of a base system doesn't exist in the Linux world. And people who run production Linux boxes are very careful about updating critical parts of the system like glibc and friends. You should take a look at e.g. RHEL and you'll see that they are quite conservative too and only support very specific versions of software packages. Windows doesn't even play in the same league, why mention it? As I've said, show the rest of us that you care enough about this and do something about it. Else it sounds like you're just enjoying the free ride and expect others to do all the work for you. Cheers, -- Miguel Mendez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://www.energyhq.es.eu.org PGP Key: 0xDC8514F1 pgpFMlmJgKUDG.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
> >OK, but I don't care about your HO on this matter. (B> (B> You may not, but users of FreeBSD do. (B (Bmmm . . . (B (B> At the very least, (B> ports should be tagged as to the versions of the OS (B> with which they will work, and it should be possible (B> to retrieve the most recent version of the port that (B> works with the version of the OS you are running. (B (BIt sounds like a wonderful idea. (B (BWho's going to pay for it? (B (B> Having users update in the standard (and prescribed) (B> way and finding out that a major function (the entire (B> ports system) is no longer working is certainly not (B> something one would expect from professionally crafted (B> software. (B (BOh? Well, okay, MSWxp sp2 is not what I would call professionally (Bcrafted software. (B (BYou do realize how they got their list of what is known to work and what (Bis known not to work, don't you? (B (B> Note that under Linux, the maintainers of distributions (B> do exactly this. (B (BOh? (B (BWell, yeah, some do. Some don't. Depends on interest level and, in some (Bcases, whether RH has the budget. (B (B> However, FreeBSD is essentially its own (B> "distro," so the job of doing this falls to the FreeBSD (B> developers and the maintainers of the ports. If it is (B> not done, FreeBSD users will enjoy an inferior experience (B> to the one they get with Linux or even Windows. (B (BI'm not going to lie. If it were possible to fund each of the BSDs (Benough to maintain professional backporting services for every release, (BI'll admit it would sure be nice. (B (BBut I'm not sure I want to pay for it. (B (BI'll make you a deal. You pay me a hundred bucks an hour to backport (Byour favorite apps and I'll do it. Just be aware that I'll be learning (Bas I go (takes a lot of time!), and I'm the kind of guy who'll then just (Bput the backport up for anyone to download, too. (B (BI think you'll discover it will most likely be cheaper for you to pay (Byourself to upgrade your OS and bring your apps and data up. That (Bapproach has some additional advantages, in that it helps you organize (Band put realistic values on your data and apps. Then, for instance, if (Byou end up paying someone a thousand bucks to bring an abandoned app up (Bon the new OS, or even to backport, or if you spent a week doing it (Byourself, you know why. (B (B-- (BJoel Rees <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Bdigitcom, inc. $B3t<02qhttp://www.ddcom.co.jp> ** (B (B___ (Bfreebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list (Bhttp://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions (BTo unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
At 08:58 PM 4/19/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Those users of FreeBSD who care about supporting the ports collection >in a given configuration, do so. They don't just send mails >complaining that someone else should do it for them. What are you talking about? The maintainer of each port DOES support it for everyone else. That's the point of having port maintainers. However, the conventions for maintenance of ports should include support for all non-EOLed versions of FreeBSD. >P.S. You've ignored my Reply-To for a second time. Are you trying to >be deliberately aggravating, or does it just come naturally to you? My e-mail client has been honoring your "Reply-to" field correctly. You'll note that the "To:" fields on my replies all point to the list. --Brett Glass ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
On Tue, Apr 19, 2005 at 08:37:43PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:33 PM 4/18/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > >OK, but I don't care about your HO on this matter. > > You may not, but users of FreeBSD do. Those users of FreeBSD who care about supporting the ports collection in a given configuration, do so. They don't just send mails complaining that someone else should do it for them. But of course you know this, because it's pointed out to you each time you make such complaints. Kris P.S. You've ignored my Reply-To for a second time. Are you trying to be deliberately aggravating, or does it just come naturally to you? pgpJRUah4Svcs.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
At 10:33 PM 4/18/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: >OK, but I don't care about your HO on this matter. You may not, but users of FreeBSD do. At the very least, ports should be tagged as to the versions of the OS with which they will work, and it should be possible to retrieve the most recent version of the port that works with the version of the OS you are running. Having users update in the standard (and prescribed) way and finding out that a major function (the entire ports system) is no longer working is certainly not something one would expect from professionally crafted software. Note that under Linux, the maintainers of distributions do exactly this. However, FreeBSD is essentially its own "distro," so the job of doing this falls to the FreeBSD developers and the maintainers of the ports. If it is not done, FreeBSD users will enjoy an inferior experience to the one they get with Linux or even Windows. --Brett Glass ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
--On Monday, April 18, 2005 10:22:13 PM -0600 Brett Glass <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: At 10:16 PM 4/18/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: The ports support policy is right there on www.freebsd.org/ports for all to read. It's not reasonable, IMHO. If a release hasn't been EOLed, ports should work on it. That's kind of silly, don't you think? As new software is developed and added to ports, why would there be *any* expectation that it would work on older releases? Do you honestly think a developer is going to test - say - usb drivers on a FBSD release that never had usb? You can keep old versions around forever if all you want to do is run what's on them, but if you want the latest and greatest of everything, the *OS* has to be new as well. Paul Schmehl ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Adjunct Information Security Officer The University of Texas at Dallas AVIEN Founding Member http://www.utdallas.edu ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
> >The ports support policy is right there on www.freebsd.org/ports for > >all to read. > > It's not reasonable, IMHO. If a release hasn't been EOLed, ports should > work on it. May I recommend openbsd as a cure for what ails ye? -- Joel Rees ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 10:22:13PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:16 PM 4/18/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > >The ports support policy is right there on www.freebsd.org/ports for > >all to read. > > It's not reasonable, IMHO. If a release hasn't been EOLed, ports should > work on it. OK, but I don't care about your HO on this matter. Kris P.S. Reply-to was set for a reason, don't ignore it. pgpy0fo0wSPXm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
At 10:16 PM 4/18/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: >The ports support policy is right there on www.freebsd.org/ports for >all to read. It's not reasonable, IMHO. If a release hasn't been EOLed, ports should work on it. --Brett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 09:38:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:19 PM 4/18/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > >Fortunately, make is not built from a port. You need to update your > >version of FreeBSD to use ports on that box. > > In other words, if one innocently updates one's ports one day, one > may suddenly find oneself to do anything with ports at all? This > seems to violate POLA. The ports support policy is right there on www.freebsd.org/ports for all to read. It's always been the case that you have to have your eyes open if you want to update your FreeBSD system. Kris pgp8WalfxFPGq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
On Monday 18 April 2005 08:38 pm, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:19 PM 4/18/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >Fortunately, make is not built from a port. You need to update your > >version of FreeBSD to use ports on that box. > > In other words, if one innocently updates one's ports one day, one > may suddenly find oneself to do anything with ports at all? This > seems to violate POLA. > > --Brett Glass Just how old is your version of BSD? There is another option for you BTW: add something like this to your ports-supfile *default date=2003.01.01.00.00.00 but do adjust the year to something close to the year of your version of FreeBSD, then run cvsup. Now if you still have all the ancient distfiles you should be able to fix your ports. Here is a link to a site that seems to keep distfiles around forever in case you need to hunt down a few: http://sf.gds.tuwien.ac.at/ -Mike ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
At 09:19 PM 4/18/2005, Kris Kennaway wrote: >Fortunately, make is not built from a port. You need to update your >version of FreeBSD to use ports on that box. In other words, if one innocently updates one's ports one day, one may suddenly find oneself to do anything with ports at all? This seems to violate POLA. --Brett Glass ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
On Mon, Apr 18, 2005 at 01:58:44AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote:
> I've been asked to upgrade some software on an older FreeBSD 4.x box. (The
> owner is getting ready to move to a new box with 4.11 but can't take the
> machine out of production just yet.) I upgraded all of the ports via CVS, and
> then discovered that none of them would build. When I try to build a port,
> I get messages like
>
> "/usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk", line 4852: Malformed conditional
> (defined(USE_RCORDER) || defined(USE_RC_SUBR) && ${USE_RC_SUBR:U} != "YES")
>
> I'm not sure, but it appears that the master Makefile for the ports collection
> was updated during the CVS update and requires features that the "make"
> utility
> which shipped with that version of FreeBSD doesn't have. (Correct me if I'm
> wrong here, but that's what it looks like at first glance.) How can I build
> ports on that box? Note that I may be in a bit of a Catch-22 situation,
> since any solution that requires installing a new "make" won't work if I have
> to build it from a port.
Fortunately, make is not built from a port. You need to update your
version of FreeBSD to use ports on that box.
Kris
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Re: Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
On Monday 18 April 2005 08:58, Brett Glass wrote:
> I've been asked to upgrade some software on an older FreeBSD 4.x box. (The
> owner is getting ready to move to a new box with 4.11 but can't take the
> machine out of production just yet.) I upgraded all of the ports via CVS,
> and then discovered that none of them would build. When I try to build a
> port, I get messages like
>
> "/usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk", line 4852: Malformed conditional
> (defined(USE_RCORDER) || defined(USE_RC_SUBR) && ${USE_RC_SUBR:U} != "YES")
>
> I'm not sure, but it appears that the master Makefile for the ports
> collection was updated during the CVS update and requires features that the
> "make" utility which shipped with that version of FreeBSD doesn't have.
> (Correct me if I'm wrong here, but that's what it looks like at first
> glance.) How can I build ports on that box? Note that I may be in a bit of
> a Catch-22 situation, since any solution that requires installing a new
> "make" won't work if I have to build it from a port.
The canonical solution is to upgrade world & kernel to 4.11.
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Can't build ports on older FreeBSD machine
I've been asked to upgrade some software on an older FreeBSD 4.x box. (The
owner is getting ready to move to a new box with 4.11 but can't take the
machine out of production just yet.) I upgraded all of the ports via CVS, and
then discovered that none of them would build. When I try to build a port,
I get messages like
"/usr/ports/Mk/bsd.port.mk", line 4852: Malformed conditional
(defined(USE_RCORDER) || defined(USE_RC_SUBR) && ${USE_RC_SUBR:U} != "YES")
I'm not sure, but it appears that the master Makefile for the ports collection
was updated during the CVS update and requires features that the "make" utility
which shipped with that version of FreeBSD doesn't have. (Correct me if I'm
wrong here, but that's what it looks like at first glance.) How can I build
ports on that box? Note that I may be in a bit of a Catch-22 situation,
since any solution that requires installing a new "make" won't work if I have
to build it from a port.
--Brett Glass
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