Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
Rolf G Nielsen wrote: Reid Linnemann wrote: My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an "old" computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that something has to have more blinky lights and chrome to be better or faster. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" I seriously doubt that it's only because she's ten. A friend of mine (who's 37) defines user-friendliness based on the number of tasks he can complete through a GUI. I used to think like that too, but not any longer. I first tried FreeBSD in 1998, but I couldn't get anything running. I just had no idea how, and I was expecting a nice "user-friendly" GUI, like Windoze, but without the constant crashes. In 1999 I purchased "The complete FreeBSD, 3rd edition" with CDs included, and this my second try was a lot more sucessful. I was still after a fancy GUI, but this time I got things working. Not without effort though. Over the years since I first tried FreeBSD, my ideas about ease of use have changed quite a lot. I no longer define user-friendliness based on what I can do in the GUI; actually, I'm often annoyed by all the menus, submenus and all the whistles and bells. It's really a lot easier to edit a text file to change some setting, than browsing through heaps of buttons, drop-down lists and all that. I think what everyone seems to be missing is that you know something about your computer. You want a directory? "Dir." Unless you're using Unix. Then it's "ls." How would you have known this without some background in using the system, if you were just plunked down in front of it? (Jurassic Park..."Hey! I know this!") For people interested in computers, it isn't a chore to learn about various commands or even learning how to learn about commands. It's not a chore to learn how the system works. For computer oriented people the user-friendliness bar is far higher in tolerance than for your average user. The computer user is as enthused about learning how to find a file (or know where the hell they're storing the [EMAIL PROTECTED] file...) as I am finding out the differences among radial tire options for my car or what the building codes are for my home when remodeling or learning why my tax forms are so @#$%! difficult to navigate through. User friendliness means they *don't need to think about a task*, and they will put up with a small amount of hassle to achieve a task as long as it isn't a pain in the arse for them to get from A to B. Sorry, but the quickest way for them to sit down and figure something out without having to refer to extra books and cheatsheets is by a (well designed) GUI. It can give them something to experiment with, and the interface presents them with a pointer and a mouse and menus to hint at options rather than a directionless blinking cursor. They can interact with it. If well designed, it can guide them through tasks. The command line is MUCH faster for many tasks, given that you know what you're doing with it. Train someone on a rote task and the command line would be just fine for what they would do. "Type this...then this...then this...then hit enter...then print this..." and the CLI is very user friendly. For users to feel comfortable on their own or in doing something flexible, the GUI is just more comfortable for them and it reduces the need to actually have to think. So it does little good for presumably tech-oriented people to proclaim how the command line is leaps and bounds friendlier/faster to use. Anyone who does user support should know that the average user would be required to think in order to use the system if it simply presents them with a flashing cursor. What do I do? What do I type? Does it read English? What is my paperwork even called? And before I reach for the asbestos suit, yes, there's a learning curve to GUIs. But the GUI still makes them more comfortable than using the keyboard. Crimony, the given the inability for people to even use the words LOSE and LOOSE properly, why the hell would anyone think the masses would find the keyboard more intuitive or easier to use with computers than a simple palm-sized plastic block with a button on it? Until computer interfaces are as easy to use as the LCARS system on the Enterprise or the computer interface on Atlantis (Stargate, if you're unfamiliar), the most comfortable thing for users to interact with will be pretty pictures and dancing eye candy to act as a reinforcement and reward for users who don't give a #!#% abo
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
Hi Gerard, Gerard wrote: I was not aware of any place where they gave computers away. In the UK we call them "skips". Not sure what the rest of the world calls them. [Large metal junk containers placed at the back of large buildings near the other bins. They're usually hired rather than owned. Perfectly good computers are often found within.] Most of my CRT monitors come from skips. There's no shame in skipdiving when you can't afford hardware. :) Adam J Richardson ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
idea how, and I was expecting a nice "user-friendly" GUI, like Windoze, but without the constant crashes. that's what most people expect. and thats why i say: Windows it the most windows compatible system available. don't change to other. In 1999 I purchased "The complete FreeBSD, 3rd edition" with CDs included, in Poland there are lots of books available about linux, none of them actually learning anything :) and this my second try was a lot more sucessful. I was still after a fancy GUI, but this time I got things working. Not without effort though. that's good. it forced you to learn. Where most Windoze users find Windoze user-friendly, I find it user-hostile, because it hides the simplest things under tons of graphics. that's makes money. educated and intelligent customer is the worst customer! unaware/stupid one will buy everything that will solve the problems (and create 2 times more). ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re[2]: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
On August 10, 2007 at 03:47AM Wojciech Puchar wrote: > well here in poland people do see a difference, because computer has to be > bought, while windoze can be pirated. I was not aware of any place where they gave computers away. > in my 320 user network less than ten bought windoze, over 300 uses pirated > one, 10 uses my X-terminals. So, you have 300+ criminals working for you. How secure does that make you feel? > and it's good for microsoft. if police in poland would start catching > pirated for real, in 1-2 years windows will be unpopular. Either that, or the criminal act of pirating software will become outmoded. -- Gerard ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Windows style computing (was Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI")
On Gdańsk technical university there was a man about 50 years teaching people unix (mostly). what he talked very often: --- DO NOT use windows EVER. Not because it's slow, not because it crashes, and not because it can't do much. Not because of security too. But because it's teaching BAD HABITS. Now we widely see the effects. Milions of people hates windows because it's slow, it crashes, it's insecure, and not much usable. But they are unable to switch to anything else because of these bad habits. And the new market for such people was created. But again - not to cure their habits, but to KEEP them, with "better windows". There are linux-based "better windows", FreeBSD-based "better windows", and whatever. if anyway really like to change, he/she has to change her/his habits. And it WILL TAKE MONTHS (or years) of WORK! sorry but it will. there is no shortcut___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: X + WM != GUI? (Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI")
I am not following this. If (X.org + some WM) is not a GUI, how would you define He probably equates a desktop environment (such as KDE/Gnome/etc.) to a GUI. most people exactly equates that and i stated i that such defined GUI is completely useless and actually takes over time and resources. but you are right - of course Which is wrong, of course: GUI is just any form of "graphical user interface", which X fits nicely. X+wm. X alone doesn't provide any GUI. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: X + WM != GUI? (Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI")
Am Freitag 10 August 2007 10:57:38 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Wojciech Puchar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text > > and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, > > there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. > > I am not following this. If (X.org + some WM) is not a GUI, > how would you define He probably equates a desktop environment (such as KDE/Gnome/etc.) to a GUI. Which is wrong, of course: GUI is just any form of "graphical user interface", which X fits nicely. -- Heiko Wundram Product & Application Development ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
X + WM != GUI? (Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI")
Wojciech Puchar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text > and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, > there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. I am not following this. If (X.org + some WM) is not a GUI, how would you define * a GUI * X.org + some WM ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
User-friendliness is obviously subjective. Some people consider a my definition is that user friendly system does what i want, does it right and quickly. simply - it's my slave. not my master. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
sincerely assume that. well here in poland people do see a difference, because computer has to be bought, while windoze can be pirated. in my 320 user network less than ten bought windoze, over 300 uses pirated one, 10 uses my X-terminals. and it's good for microsoft. if police in poland would start catching pirated for real, in 1-2 years windows will be unpopular. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
Sorry, I agree with you, s/GUI/graphic based/ in my post. I've just Yes - graphics based. I use graphics based programs like gimp, links -g, opera, xv & xzgv, gv and xdvi. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an "old" computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that no. it was just more unfortunate to her, because what you learn as a child is then accepted as normal and natural in adult life. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 08:20:13PM +0200, Rolf G Nielsen wrote: > >My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw > >my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i > >was using such an "old" computer. She had the visual aspect of the user > >interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. > >Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot > >of people think that something has to have more blinky lights and chrome > >to be better or faster. > > I seriously doubt that it's only because she's ten. A friend of mine > (who's 37) defines user-friendliness based on the number of tasks he can > complete through a GUI. I used to think like that too, but not any > longer. I first tried FreeBSD in 1998, but I couldn't get anything > running. I just had no idea how, and I was expecting a nice > "user-friendly" GUI, like Windoze, but without the constant crashes. > Where most Windoze users find Windoze user-friendly, I find it > user-hostile, because it hides the simplest things under tons of graphics. > > For some applications, like image manipulation, a good GUI is a must (at > least that's my point of view), but good doesn't mean complex. And a GUI > is certainly not needed for running a computer. > > My friend, whom I mentioned above, says my computer looks like a green > screen from 1970's movies. I once tried to guide him over the phone > through downloading a file using Windoze's built-in cli FTP client. He > didn't even know that such a procedure was possible; he had the idea, > that downloading a file required a graphical progress bar. After the > file was downloaded (a GUI FTP client), he said it was the most horrible > thing he'd ever done, and had comments about this being the 21st > century. So, I doubt your niece's comment was just about her being a child. > > -- > Sincerly, > Rolf Nielsen User-friendliness is obviously subjective. Some people consider a system to be user-friendly if it doesn't require reading documentation to start using it. Some people consider a system to be user-friendly if there is a simply, efficient interface. It's rare to find software where both of these are true. In business, you simply can't forget the learning curve. Learning how to efficiently use Unix may not be the best use of epmployee time, since most of them know how to use Windows already. This is especially true with high-turnover rates--how much time do you want to spend training someone who will just jump ship for a better paying job in 2 years? Personally, I'm with you. I'm much more efficient on the command-line, but that's only because I've spent a not-insignificant portion of my life using it. I saw the benefits long ago, and even though there was a learning curve (imagine having to actually read documentation rather than going in blindly and clicking!), I feel that it was worth it. Erik ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
Reid Linnemann wrote: My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an "old" computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that something has to have more blinky lights and chrome to be better or faster. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" I seriously doubt that it's only because she's ten. A friend of mine (who's 37) defines user-friendliness based on the number of tasks he can complete through a GUI. I used to think like that too, but not any longer. I first tried FreeBSD in 1998, but I couldn't get anything running. I just had no idea how, and I was expecting a nice "user-friendly" GUI, like Windoze, but without the constant crashes. In 1999 I purchased "The complete FreeBSD, 3rd edition" with CDs included, and this my second try was a lot more sucessful. I was still after a fancy GUI, but this time I got things working. Not without effort though. Over the years since I first tried FreeBSD, my ideas about ease of use have changed quite a lot. I no longer define user-friendliness based on what I can do in the GUI; actually, I'm often annoyed by all the menus, submenus and all the whistles and bells. It's really a lot easier to edit a text file to change some setting, than browsing through heaps of buttons, drop-down lists and all that. Where most Windoze users find Windoze user-friendly, I find it user-hostile, because it hides the simplest things under tons of graphics. For some applications, like image manipulation, a good GUI is a must (at least that's my point of view), but good doesn't mean complex. And a GUI is certainly not needed for running a computer. My friend, whom I mentioned above, says my computer looks like a green screen from 1970's movies. I once tried to guide him over the phone through downloading a file using Windoze's built-in cli FTP client. He didn't even know that such a procedure was possible; he had the idea, that downloading a file required a graphical progress bar. After the file was downloaded (a GUI FTP client), he said it was the most horrible thing he'd ever done, and had comments about this being the 21st century. So, I doubt your niece's comment was just about her being a child. -- Sincerly, Rolf Nielsen ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007 12:15:08 -0500 Reid Linnemann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She > saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know > why i was using such an "old" computer. [...] Granted, it could be > only because she's ten. The important part is that she asked you why you used a "computer" because, like millions of users, she don't make difference between computer and window$ (i.e. OS). People will rarely explicitly state that, of course, but when I speak to some people, I see that they sincerely assume that. That reminds me of a typical brainwashing sencence from window$: when you want to press the reboot icon, the text over your mouse will tell something like "Shut down and start Windows again"; the sencence contains an explicit equalisation of machine and window$. So I'd say this has nothing to do with one's age. Nikola Lečić ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
On Thu, 9 Aug 2007 19:04:50 +0200 (CEST) Wojciech Puchar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > desktop system should be, so FreeBSD with GUI apps _is_ > > -- or can be if you want -- a "perfect desktop system". > > i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text > and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, > there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. Sorry, I agree with you, s/GUI/graphic based/ in my post. I've just wanted to be clear that X.org and X-apps are not the part of FreeBSD. Nikola Lečić ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
Written by Wojciech Puchar on 08/09/07 12:04>> desktop system should be, so FreeBSD with GUI apps _is_ -- or can be if you want -- a "perfect desktop system". i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. i need a productive system, no "graphical user interfaces" etc, that let me actually concentrate of what i have to do! Most of You needs the same, but after years of aggressive marketing/brainwashing think that "graphical user interfaces", "desktop environments" etc. are important. The most stupid but popular claim is that complexity is good. this make people work many TIMES slower, both 100% window$ users and 95-99% unix users. all of this is needed to convince people that every 1-2 year they need new "modern" computer and the old is worth nothing. and people believe in it. their problem, not mine :) My ten year old niece has been brainwashed by the GUI quagmire. She saw my FreeBSD 6-STABLE console on my amd64 3000+ and wanted to know why i was using such an "old" computer. She had the visual aspect of the user interface ingrained as a measure of the capabilities of the machine. Granted, it could be only because she's ten, but I think we'd find a lot of people think that something has to have more blinky lights and chrome to be better or faster. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Convince me, please! - too much about "GUI"
desktop system should be, so FreeBSD with GUI apps _is_ -- or can be if you want -- a "perfect desktop system". i don't use GUI. it takes a lot and gives nothing. i use both text and graphic (X) based apps and no gui. i use fvwm2 with my config, there are plenty of nice other wm's good for that. i need a productive system, no "graphical user interfaces" etc, that let me actually concentrate of what i have to do! Most of You needs the same, but after years of aggressive marketing/brainwashing think that "graphical user interfaces", "desktop environments" etc. are important. The most stupid but popular claim is that complexity is good. this make people work many TIMES slower, both 100% window$ users and 95-99% unix users. all of this is needed to convince people that every 1-2 year they need new "modern" computer and the old is worth nothing. and people believe in it. their problem, not mine :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
