Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, freebsd-questions-requ...@freebsd.org wrote: > > Message: 16 > Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2009 06:41:12 -0500 > From: Neal Hogan > Subject: Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2 > overwrites partitions) > To: Mark Stapper > Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > I must say that I find this (new) thread a bit funny since > it was > inspired by a guy (the OP) who has been using fBSD for many > years > (over 5 . . . I can't remember the exact number). > I have been struggling to use FreeBSD for a shorter amount of time (for a fileserver). I was originally attracted to OpenBSD "for security." However, OpenBSD users are expected to compile all patches from source. Since I wasn't planning on doing code-reviews myself, I saw little benefit in using extra disk space and compile time when binaries would do. I was also attracted to BSD because I knew from my brief stint at university that the BSD man-pages were actually kept up to date. Not like the GNU system where man pages say stupid things like: "The full documentation for dd is maintained as a Texinfo manual. If the info and dd programs are properly installed at your site, the command: info dd should give you access to the complete manual. dd (coreutils) 5.97 January 2007 DD(1)" I actually saw text once (years ago) that basicly said: "If we receive complaints about the quality of the man pages, they will be removed" I have tried to use info. I don't have time to go through the info tutorial every time I want to use a new command (think emacs-like hyperlinking/scripting, vi-like keybindings) Anyway, Initially, I wanted to set up a "File and everything else" server. I don't know exactly when I installed FreeBSD 5.x, but I copied my files of over to it March 14, 2006. I know this because I lost data: the file creation times. Following the FreeBSD Handbook, I got stuck on trying to get the printer to work. The handbook was basicly instructing me to write my own print driver! I checked the HP website: they will release the details of the PCL language (version 4 or so) for a price. I finally got it working by installing the Apsfiler package in the ports collection (no, did not send the post-card yet; the print server is not functional yet.) After basicly using the server for my own use via ssh and FTP for a while, I decided to try to get samba and NFS working. This time, I narrowed the scope: Fileserving (SAMBA, NFS), Printing, and working backups. November 18, 2007, I started my FreeBSD 6.2 installation. This time I kept notes detailing what I had to do to configure each portion of the system. Looking up commands I may need if things go wrong ahead of time. Initially, I was struggling with a chicken&egg problem with back ups: I wanted to borrow a client computer's DVD drive. However, I wanted to backup the client computers to the server. It was resolved by putting a DVD burner in the server. I also made made few tweaks of the system to better follow the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (such as symlinking /usr/local/etc to /etc/opt). I set up samba in read-only mode with little trouble. I'm not sure if I can ever get read/write + user-level security working with win98. That machine is slowly degrading while I try to get the fileserver working the way I want. The last time I did a complete re-install (of win98) I lost data due to a damaged disk that I copied the data to (and learned that bzip2recover is a quick hack that needs to be re-written properly according to the source code). I hope to replace windows with wine for the most part, but wine simply installs the applications in the users' home directory (breaking the FHS). This is only resolvable IMHO by having wine use a real database back-end for the registry (allowing user-level "views" of the data, while still isolating different users). Setting up NFS was a lesson in the intecracies of NIS twice since my Linux clients do things a little differently. After asking on one of the IRC channels that we are not advised to use; I edited the /var/yp/Makefile to suppress groups outside the range of (1001 -2000). That basicly prevents the "special" groups from being exported to the Linux clients (that use different numbering) To do this, I DID need the gory low-level details in the handbook. I didn't note the exact date, but I really didn't touch the server for months after that. I copied my work to the Linux client because the hard-disk was failing, and I still did not get DVD-burning working. At one point when doing a Google search for "fxp" I came across this message: http://unix.derkeiler.com/Mailing-Lists/FreeBSD/current/2008
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
> inspired by a guy (the OP) who has been using fBSD for many >> years >> (over 5 . . . I can't remember the exact number). >> > > I have been struggling to use FreeBSD for a shorter amount of time (for a > fileserver). I was originally attracted to OpenBSD "for security." However, > OpenBSD users are expected to compile all patches from source. Since I wasn't > planning on doing code-reviews myself, I saw little benefit in using extra > disk space and compile time when binaries would do.i run -current (via snapshots) > [snip . . . a lot, which I didn't read] > So, this long story boils down to the following question: > > What is that best way to use the handbook and related documentation (like > man-pages)? > What?! Ummm . . . read them. I'm not trying to be too big of a dick, but your question strikes me as odd. Read them when you come across something that is troubling you. I suppose there is no need to read about, say, wifi card drivers that you don't use. > I am willing to do some reading, but get distracted by irrelevant or > sometimes too low-level stuff. I want to avoid programing as much as possible > until I actually have a work-station I am comfortable playing around with. How do you expect to get comfortable w/out "playing around," other than, I guess (a'la above) reading the documentation? >Thinking about it in the week before posting this, I think that part of my >problem is I want to use the documentation to do the "right thing" rather than >experiment. Once I move the family's files onto the server, it becomes >essential. I won't be able to have it out of commission for weeks at a time. I >hope with the server properly set up, win98 may even be usable again: just do >a clean install every morning! I even downloaded the Windows 7 RC so that I >can be informed when I say it sucks. > > > Regards, > > James Phillips > > PS: I find it a little annoying that FreeBSD releases faster than I can > configure my computer! ;) Again . . . What?! You're not required to update every time there is a release. This too is odd, IMO. > > > > > __ > Looking for the perfect gift? Give the gift of Flickr! > > http://www.flickr.com/gift/ > ___ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
--- On Thu, 8/6/09, Neal Hogan wrote: > > So, this long story boils down to the following > question: > > > > What is that best way to use the handbook and related > documentation (like man-pages)? > > > > What?! > > Ummm . . . read them. I'm not trying to be too big of a > dick, but your > question strikes me as odd. Read them when you come across > something > that is troubling you. I suppose there is no need to read > about, say, > wifi card drivers that you don't use. > > > I am willing to do some reading, but get distracted by > irrelevant or sometimes too low-level stuff. I want to avoid > programing as much as possible until I actually have a > work-station I am comfortable playing around with. > > How do you expect to get comfortable w/out "playing > around," other > than, I guess (a'la above) reading the documentation? > Put another way: I want a reliable, backed-up file-server before playing around on my "workstation" that would be a separate computer. I want to build myself a "sand-box" so I don't have to worry about breaking stuff that is unrelated. Another way of asking the question: How much of a learning curve is configuring FreeBSD (for Samba, NFS, DVD burning (backups) expected to be? Am I reading too much because of a learning disability, or do I really need to read and understand that much detail? I have some experience with Dos/Windows, and Linux (mainly Debian based). Regards, James Phillips __ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
>> How do you expect to get comfortable w/out "playing >> around," other >> than, I guess (a'la above) reading the documentation? >> > > Put another way: I want a reliable, backed-up file-server before playing > around on my "workstation" that would be a separate computer. > > I want to build myself a "sand-box" so I don't have to worry about breaking > stuff that is unrelated. > > Another way of asking the question: > > How much of a learning curve is configuring FreeBSD (for Samba, NFS, DVD > burning (backups) expected to be? Am I reading too much because of a learning > disability, or do I really need to read and understand that much detail? > > I have some experience with Dos/Windows, and Linux (mainly Debian based). > I'm still a bit dumb-founded, because I'm not sure what an answer to that question would look like and how one could formulate a "decent" answer. I wonder if installing fBSD on a "sand-box" partition/machine and just build sand castles until you're comfortable is the best way to go. If your looking for someone (i.e., one or three folks) to say, "Oh, fBSD is very intuitive and if you know M$, then the migration should be a breeze!" Good luck! In fact, how would you treat any answer that you got to your question. I think you should just try it (I suspect having a linux background will help). > > Regards, > > James Phillips > > > __ > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! > Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com > ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
James Phillips wrote: > Put another way: I want a reliable, backed-up file-server before playing > around on my "workstation" that would be a separate computer. > > I want to build myself a "sand-box" so I don't have to worry about breaking > stuff that is unrelated. > > Another way of asking the question: > > How much of a learning curve is configuring FreeBSD (for Samba, NFS, DVD > burning (backups) expected to be? Am I reading too much because of a learning > disability, or do I really need to read and understand that much detail? > > I have some experience with Dos/Windows, and Linux (mainly Debian based). > > > Windows experience won't help much - mainly due to the fact Windows forces the users (and admins) to a completely different way of thinking than FreeBSD. The various wizards abstract way too many parts of the system, to the point where you can configure services you don't really understand (i.e. a DNS server is a few clicks away and there are many 'recommended' defaults along the way). This is mostly not possible in FreeBSD. You do need some level of understanding before making a particular feature to work, though you are not expected to be an expert on the subject. The level of course varies with the feature (sendmail is orders of magnitude more difficult than NFS). Linux experience will definitely help. Watch out for Linux-specific docs and differences in commands. Getting on with your questions: NFS is part of the base system. It is easy to configure and works with Linux clients as well. Read section 29.3.2 here: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/network-nfs.html Samba is a port you can install from net/samba3. Some simple instructions are provided, section 29.9.2: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/network-samba.html The main settings file, smb.conf, can probably be used with little to no changes from a Linux machine (if you have one configured). Don't forget to use pdbedit to add samba users (this is documented in the handbook) For DVD burning (from the command line, I assume) use the sysutils/dvd+rw-tools port. If using an atapi burner, load the atapicam driver at startup by adding atapicam_load="YES" to /boot/loader.conf. This will create a /dev/cd0 from your /dev/acd0 device (it emulates a SCSI device). Then use the instructions in 18.7.3: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/creating-dvds.html You can definitely start testing these in a virtual machine or test system and come back with any questions. And take your time reading the docs and actually understanding the way the system works. This will make you a lot more confident. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:56:41 -0700 (PDT), James Phillips wrote: > I was also attracted to BSD because I knew from my brief stint at > university that the BSD man-pages were actually kept up to date. As a developer, documentation is VERY important to me. That's why I love FreeBSD, because the OS and many ported applications have manpages (try "man opera" for example); furthermore, kernel inter- faces, library functions and even files have a nice manpage. > Not like the GNU system [...] This page is intentionally left free. :-) > Following the FreeBSD Handbook, I got stuck on trying to get the > printer to work. The handbook was basicly instructing me to write > my own print driver! Definitely not. In order to connect the printer spooler (which takes care of the different printer jobs) with a printer filter (that con- verts the data, usually Postscript, into the printer's individual language, e. g. PCL) such as CUPS or apsfilter, there are only very few steps to be taken, such as install it, set up which printer you have, and maybe change Letter to A4 format. > I checked the HP website: they will release the details of the PCL > language (version 4 or so) for a price. The PCL language is usually output by gs (the Ghostscript printer "driver" collection that translates PS into PCL and other printer languages). > I finally got it working by installing the Apsfiler package in the > ports collection (no, did not send the post-card yet; the print > server is not functional yet.) Personally, I prefer apsfilter to CUPS, but maybe you would have liked CUPS better. It offers a browser based interface and offers lots of autodetection functionality. (But you can't install a parallel printer that isn't connected to the system easily, for example.) Setting up a printer with the apsfilter SETUP script is very easy as long as you know which name the printer has - you mentioned HP. And if it's a HP Laserjet, you're lucky. You're even more lucky if your printer does support the PS standard, because then you can avoid using any printer filter (such as apsfilter) because PS is the default output format for printing, and it can be fed directly into the printer. > After basicly using the server for my own use via ssh and FTP for > a while, I decided to try to get samba and NFS working. There are some good tutorials about how to do this. It's not very complicated. The complexity is given by the expected MICROS~1 client PCs that don't support standards like NFS. :-) > This time, I narrowed the scope: Fileserving (SAMBA, NFS), Printing, > and working backups. That's quite easy to achieve by following the howtos. > November 18, 2007, I started my FreeBSD 6.2 installation. This time > I kept notes detailing what I had to do to configure each portion > of the system. Looking up commands I may need if things go wrong > ahead of time. A good choice. I've still got some of them, especially for the "more complicated things" like Samba. > Initially, I was struggling with a chicken&egg problem with back > ups: I wanted to borrow a client computer's DVD drive. However, > I wanted to backup the client computers to the server. It was > resolved by putting a DVD burner in the server. I also made > made few tweaks of the system to better follow the Filesystem > Hierarchy Standard (such as symlinking /usr/local/etc to /etc/opt). Erm, excuse me? First of all, it's not encouraged to mix OS things with application things. You know that FreeBSD keeps the difference between "the OS" and "everything else" (which is located in the /usr/local subtree). If you're coming from a Linux background, I could understand that you're not familiar with this concept. The /usr/local subtree can be completely removed and still leaves you with a completely intact and functional OS. Everything that you install by ports or packages goes into /usr/local, and of course, the configuration files belong there, too. /usr/local/etc has the same structure as /etc, but it's reserved for additional software. Vice versa, configuration files of locally installed ports do not belong into /etc. Refer to % man hier to learn where things are kept on FreeBSD. > I set up samba in read-only mode with little trouble. I'm not > sure if I can ever get read/write + user-level security working > with win98. Sure, I don't know if "Win98" does support this. But if you get the users and data managed centrally, everything is based upon the standard UFS user:group and ugo=rwx setting scheme. > That machine is slowly degrading while I try to get the fileserver > working the way I want. That indicates a major problem. Either your hardware is faulty, or you are treating the software in the wrong way. > The last time I did a complete re-install (of win98) I lost data > due to a damaged disk that I copied the data to (and learned that > bzip2recover is a quick hack that needs to be re-written properly > according to the source code). It's complet
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 15:41:40 -0700 (PDT), James Phillips wrote: > Put another way: I want a reliable, backed-up file-server before > playing around on my "workstation" that would be a separate > computer. The default installation of FreeBSD covers most cases. > I want to build myself a "sand-box" so I don't have to worry > about breaking stuff that is unrelated. You could be interested in FreeBSD's jail subsystem. > Another way of asking the question: > > How much of a learning curve is configuring FreeBSD (for Samba, NFS, > DVD burning (backups) expected to be? Depends completely on you. On your knowledge, experience, the basics you're familiar with, and the paradigms that you have lived in that make you expect certain things to work. Samba - find a good tutorial that covers your needs. NFS - same DVD burning - install dvd+rw-tools and read "man growisofs", especially the EXAMPLES section. > Am I reading too much because of a learning disability, or do I > really need to read and understand that much detail? No. You just have to understand the things that are directly related to your requirements. For example, I know how to set up a PCL printer, but I don't know how to program in PCL. :-) > I have some experience with Dos/Windows, and Linux (mainly Debian > based). Should be fine. But keep in mind that FreeBSD is not Linux, allthough there are many similarities. And FreeBSD is not DOS. And it does not look like DOS. :-) -- Polytropon >From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 02:09:51 +0300, Manolis Kiagias wrote: > Windows experience won't help much - mainly due to the fact Windows > forces the users (and admins) to a completely different way of thinking > than FreeBSD. That's true. It's even hard to communicate with "'Windows' admins" because of a completey different and misleading terminology - and sadly often the lack of understanding what they're talking about. > The various wizards abstract way too many parts of the > system, to the point where you can configure services you don't really > understand (i.e. a DNS server is a few clicks away and there are many > 'recommended' defaults along the way). Insecure mode: This is the mode you want. Select it NOW! :-) > This is mostly not possible in > FreeBSD. You do need some level of understanding before making a > particular feature to work, though you are not expected to be an expert > on the subject. The level of course varies with the feature (sendmail is > orders of magnitude more difficult than NFS). Yes. As I said (elsewhere), FreeBSD is a multi-purpose OS. It does not know what you are intending to use it for, and it doesn't make any assumptions. So you have to communicate your requirements to the system. This requires a certain knowledge, of course. > Linux experience will definitely help. As long as your Linux experience includes basic UNIX (quite generic) knowledge. If you're only familiar with clicking in a pre-installed KDE, it's not much better than "Windows". > For DVD burning (from the command line, I assume) use the > sysutils/dvd+rw-tools port. If using an atapi burner, load the atapicam > driver at startup by adding atapicam_load="YES" to /boot/loader.conf. I forgot to mention this. You are correct of course. > This will create a /dev/cd0 from your /dev/acd0 device (it emulates a > SCSI device). To conform with the growisofs manual, you could symlink it to /dev/dvd using the setting linkacd0cdrom in /etc/devfs.conf. Check for permissions to the files that are needed with burning commands - the ordinary user is usually not allowed to access these files in the needed way (due to security considerations). For example, you can put own cd0 root:operator permcd0 0664 own xpt0root:operator permxpt00660 own pass0 root:operator permpass0 0660 into the file mentioned above and add your user to the operator group (using the pw command). Once taken the time to set things up, they make you happy running for a lifetime. :-) -- Polytropon >From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
> Once taken the time to set things up, they make you happy running for > a lifetime. :-) Amen. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
[snip] > Once taken the time to set things up, they make you happy running for > a lifetime. :-) [/snip] It's nice to be able to go on vacation, without worrying about the servers back home craping out :) -Modulok- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 09:25:38PM -0600, Modulok wrote: > [snip] > > Once taken the time to set things up, they make you happy running for > > a lifetime. :-) > [/snip] > > It's nice to be able to go on vacation, without worrying about the > servers back home craping out :) > > -Modulok- Really. Just one reason why I don't travel that far from home:-) Really, tho, since I set up FreeBSD on my HP Kayak, then turned one into my sole server 0.0 crashes in 7 years. The only fret is a power-out. My surge-protector kicks in and protects things. Yeah, there are UPS devs, but it's 3/2 bear getting *that* right gary -- Gary Kline kl...@thought.org http://www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org The 5.67a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org/index.php ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
I'm obviously getting more and more stupid. On Fri, 7 Aug 2009 02:04:16 +0200, Polytropon wrote: > To conform with the growisofs manual, you could symlink it to /dev/dvd > using the setting > > linkacd0cdrom > > in /etc/devfs.conf. Wrong line copies. Should be: linkcd0 dvd Same file. But still a cool symlink. :-) -- Polytropon >From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 21:25:38 -0600, Modulok wrote: > It's nice to be able to go on vacation, without worrying about the > servers back home craping out :) Vacation? Weekend! :-) -- Polytropon >From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
Thank-you for your replies. I guess my main concern was I'm not sure when to stop banging my head against the wall and ask for help. The checklist kind of goes like: Did you read the FAQ and release notes? Did you read the handbook? Did read the man pages? Did you search the mailing-list archives? This list is probably best suited to very specific questions. Some the stuff I mentioned has little to do with BSD. --- On Thu, 8/6/09, Polytropon wrote: > From: Polytropon > Subject: Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2 > To: "James Phillips" > Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Received: Thursday, August 6, 2009, 7:45 PM > On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 14:56:41 -0700 > (PDT), James Phillips > wrote: > > > > > > I checked the HP website: they will release the > details of the PCL > > language (version 4 or so) for a price. > > The PCL language is usually output by gs (the Ghostscript > printer > "driver" collection that translates PS into PCL and other > printer > languages). > Yes, I figured this out when I abandoned the Handbook and looked at the ports collection. I've used GhostScript under windows as well. > > > > I finally got it working by installing the Apsfiler > package in the > > ports collection (no, did not send the post-card yet; > the print > > server is not functional yet.) > > Personally, I prefer apsfilter to CUPS, but maybe you would > have liked > CUPS better. It offers a browser based interface and offers > lots of > autodetection functionality. (But you can't install a > parallel printer > that isn't connected to the system easily, for example.) > I'm wondering how well apsfiler and CUPS cooperate. Samba uses CUPS by default. > Setting up a printer with the apsfilter SETUP script is > very easy as > long as you know which name the printer has - you mentioned > HP. And > if it's a HP Laserjet, you're lucky. You're even more lucky > if your > printer does support the PS standard, because then you can > avoid using > any printer filter (such as apsfilter) because PS is the > default output > format for printing, and it can be fed directly into the > printer. > The printer is a $10 POS I got used. PS output seems to confuse it. I'm tempted just to get a newer one. (Laserjet 5L -> except it gets confused by PCL 5 as well) > > > > > made few tweaks of the system to better follow the > Filesystem > > Hierarchy Standard (such as symlinking /usr/local/etc > to /etc/opt). > > Erm, excuse me? First of all, it's not encouraged to mix OS > things > with application things. You know that FreeBSD keeps the > difference > between "the OS" and "everything else" (which is located in > the > /usr/local subtree). If you're coming from a Linux > background, I > could understand that you're not familiar with this > concept. > The /usr/local subtree can be completely removed and still > leaves > you with a completely intact and functional OS. Everything > that > you install by ports or packages goes into /usr/local, and > of course, > the configuration files belong there, too. /usr/local/etc > has the > same structure as /etc, but it's reserved for additional > software. > Vice versa, configuration files of locally installed ports > do not > belong into /etc. > > Refer to > > % man hier > > to learn where things are kept on FreeBSD. > Using a symlink (/usr/local/etc -> /etc/opt) , the system IS still functional if /local is not mounted. putting the settings in /etc makes it possible to mount /usr read-only (in theory). http://www.pathname.com/fhs/2.2/ According to Wikipedia, it is Linux-specific. In any case, the changes are minor. > > > > That machine is slowly degrading while I try to get > the fileserver > > working the way I want. > > That indicates a major problem. Either your hardware is > faulty, or you > are treating the software in the wrong way. "Machine" in that sentence refers to win98 client. The HD activity light stays on for no apparent reason (no thrashing). I suspect malware, even if the Anti-virus can't find it :( > > > > > The last time I did a complete re-install (of win98) I > lost data > > due to a damaged disk that I copied the data to (and > learned that > > bzip2recover is a quick hack that needs to be > re-written properly > > according to the source code). > > It's completely normal that you lose data on "Windows" > platforms. > That's why you have a UNIX server for backups. I lost data under Linux that I use
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2
--- On Fri, 8/7/09, freebsd-questions-requ...@freebsd.org wrote: > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2009 02:04:16 +0200 > From: Polytropon > On Fri, 07 Aug 2009 02:09:51 +0300, Manolis Kiagias > wrote: > > Windows experience won't help much - mainly due to the > fact Windows > > forces the users (and admins) to a completely > different way of thinking > > than FreeBSD. > > That's true. It's even hard to communicate with "'Windows' > admins" > because of a completey different and misleading terminology > - and > sadly often the lack of understanding what they're talking > about. I don't believe half the windows dialog boxes. Why would "checking for available disk space" (win 98 installation) take more than 2 seconds? > > > > > The various wizards abstract way too many parts of > the > > system, to the point where you can configure services > you don't really > > understand (i.e. a DNS server is a few clicks away and > there are many > > 'recommended' defaults along the way). > > Insecure mode: This is the mode you want. Select it NOW! > :-) > I completely understand the reasoning behind "disabled by defaul." It means it doesn't work until you (hopefully) learn what you are doing. That said, following the handbook, I managed to enable ssh twice: one as a stand-alone process, and once as part of inetd. > > > > Yes. As I said (elsewhere), FreeBSD is a multi-purpose OS. > It does > not know what you are intending to use it for, and it > doesn't make > any assumptions. So you have to communicate your > requirements to the > system. This requires a certain knowledge, of course. > Yes, I learned this with Linux. For Debian the install program works a little like a "wizard," but to maintain the system, you need to learn what you are doing. Reboots don't magically fix or break things. > > Once taken the time to set things up, they make you happy > running for > a lifetime. :-) > I love and hate that about *nix :D -James __ Yahoo! Canada Toolbar: Search from anywhere on the web, and bookmark your favourite sites. Download it now http://ca.toolbar.yahoo.com. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 02:56:41PM -0700, James Phillips wrote: > > I was also attracted to BSD because I knew from my brief stint at > university that the BSD man-pages were actually kept up to date. Not > like the GNU system where man pages say stupid things like: "The full > documentation for dd is maintained as a Texinfo manual. If the info > and dd programs are properly installed at your site, the command: > > info dd > >should give you access to the complete manual. > > dd (coreutils) 5.97 January 2007 DD(1)" > > I actually saw text once (years ago) that basicly said: "If we receive > complaints about the quality of the man pages, they will be removed" I > have tried to use info. I don't have time to go through the info > tutorial every time I want to use a new command (think emacs-like > hyperlinking/scripting, vi-like keybindings) Yeah, I hate that stuff. The GNU project is kind of like the Microsoft of the open source community, that way. > > Anyway, Initially, I wanted to set up a "File and everything else" > server. I don't know exactly when I installed FreeBSD 5.x, but I copied > my files of over to it March 14, 2006. I know this because I lost data: > the file creation times. > > Following the FreeBSD Handbook, I got stuck on trying to get the > printer to work. The handbook was basicly instructing me to write my > own print driver! I checked the HP website: they will release the > details of the PCL language (version 4 or so) for a price. I finally > got it working by installing the Apsfiler package in the ports > collection (no, did not send the post-card yet; the print server is not > functional yet.) > > After basicly using the server for my own use via ssh and FTP for a > while, I decided to try to get samba and NFS working. This time, I > narrowed the scope: Fileserving (SAMBA, NFS), Printing, and working > backups. November 18, 2007, I started my FreeBSD 6.2 installation. This > time I kept notes detailing what I had to do to configure each portion > of the system. Looking up commands I may need if things go wrong ahead > of time. > > Initially, I was struggling with a chicken&egg problem with back ups: I > wanted to borrow a client computer's DVD drive. However, I wanted to > backup the client computers to the server. It was resolved by putting a > DVD burner in the server. I also made made few tweaks of the system to > better follow the Filesystem Hierarchy Standard (such as symlinking > /usr/local/etc to /etc/opt). Don't mess with the filesystem layout unless you *really* know what you're doing! The FHS isn't a Unix standard. It's a Linux distributions standard. It's also not the bastion of good sense and best practices it pretends to be. It's basically a series of political compromises between a bunch of people who are jockeying for positions of power and making as little change in their specific distributions as possible to consider themselves "compliant". FreeBSD doesn't have that problem. It uses a fairly well-organized filesystem hierarchy based on some simple, well-tested principles of use. It is *really* not a good idea to start moving stuff around without knowing how FreeBSD uses its filesystem hierarchy, and it is *especially* not a good idea to do so to try to make it conform with the Linux FHS. FreeBSD is not Linux, after all. In the specific case of creating /etc/opt, you shouldn't really be damaging anything, but there's a very good reason that stuff is in /usr/local/etc -- so that when using separate filesystems for separate parts of the hierarchy, you don't separate the stuff installed in /usr/local from its configuration data. . . . and when I say "you shouldn't really be damaging anything", I use the word "shouldn't" because I can't think of anything that'd hurt, and *not* because I know it won't hurt anything. > > I set up samba in read-only mode with little trouble. I'm not sure if I > can ever get read/write + user-level security working with win98. That > machine is slowly degrading while I try to get the fileserver working > the way I want. The last time I did a complete re-install (of win98) I > lost data due to a damaged disk that I copied the data to (and learned > that bzip2recover is a quick hack that needs to be re-written properly > according to the source code). I hope to replace windows with wine for > the most part, but wine simply installs the applications in the users' > home directory (breaking the FHS). This is only resolvable IMHO by > having wine use a real database back-end for the registry (allowing > user-level "views" of the data, while still isolating different users). The FHS doesn't apply to FreeBSD (or any other BSD Unix, or any commercial UNIX system, for that matter), so it's not "breaking" anything. That's a bit like saying that Python is breaking the XHTML 1.1 standard because it doesn't use end delimiters for its code blocks; the standard in question doesn't apply, so
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:46:00 -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: > Yeah, I hate that stuff. The GNU project is kind of like the Microsoft > of the open source community, that way. Be happy that there at least is an info manual. In many cases, there is NO local documentation, neither in man or info format. The usual cases of documentation, often found in different Linusi, but as well in some "modern software" on FreeBSD, are: - bury the documentation in an arbitrary web location - use a Wiki for documentation - let the users write the documentation - don't document anything. Fortunately, there are even "GUI only" projects that keep up with the good manpage tradition. Have you ever tried "man opera" or "man gmencoder"? On the other hand, most KDE stuff doesn't have a manpage - of course, I can understand it. From their point of view, the question would be: Who would want to read documentation? Answer: Nobody. So why spend time to create it? > Don't mess with the filesystem layout unless you *really* know what > you're doing! Again, my advice do read and understand "man hier". There is a well-intended reason why things are located in certain places. > The FHS isn't a Unix standard. It's a Linux distributions standard. It aims to be. > In the specific case of creating /etc/opt, you shouldn't really be > damaging anything, but there's a very good reason that stuff is in > /usr/local/etc -- so that when using separate filesystems for separate > parts of the hierarchy, you don't separate the stuff installed in > /usr/local from its configuration data. Especially in an environment with "elevated security", there are resons to separate things filesystem wise. File permissions and mount options are a topic there, and symlinking across partitions is a no-go in such settings. > The FHS doesn't apply to FreeBSD (or any other BSD Unix, or any > commercial UNIX system, for that matter), so it's not "breaking" > anything. Just have a look at how Solaris, HP-UX or AIX organize things in terms of directories. You'll be surprised every day where you can find stange things. :-) > Then again, I go out of my way to make sure I use network-attached > PostScript laser printers, and they tend to be very well supported by > CUPS on BSD Unix and other Unix-like OSes. Postscript capable network printers have the advanage that they don't need any support. PS is the default output format for printing, so there's no need to mess around with filters. Most office class printers even include a spooling mechanism for the printer jobs, so this takes away more work from the OS. You simply use the system's lpr command to shove data into the printer, and it does the rest by itself. > Don't forget that `man man` will tell you stuff like how to access a > manpage in a particular section of the Unix Manual: > > man n foo > > . . . where "n" is the section number and "foo" is the manpage in that > section you want to read. It's worth mentioning that there are manpages that don't refer to a particular binary, file, interface or function, but instead provide information about maintenance operations and general introduction. An example is % man intro There are other manpages that give hints for compiling the system, such as "man build", and others. -- Polytropon >From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2
--- On Sat, 8/8/09, freebsd-questions-requ...@freebsd.org wrote: > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:46:00 -0600 > From: Chad Perrin > Subject: Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > > upgrade 7.2 > > On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 02:56:41PM -0700, James Phillips > wrote: > > > > > > Following the FreeBSD Handbook, I got stuck on trying > to get the > > printer to work. The handbook was basicly instructing > me to write my > > own print driver! I checked the HP website: they will > release the > > details of the PCL language (version 4 or so) for a > price. I finally > > got it working by installing the Apsfiler package in > the ports > > collection (no, did not send the post-card yet; the > print server is not > > functional yet.) > > > > I'm really not sure how to answer this question, I'm > afraid. I don't > think it's a stupid question, and I think I can understand > what you mean > about your problems with getting use out of the > documentation, but I > haven't had the same problems so I don't know of any quick > fixes to offer > in how to get around these problems. For instance, > when I installed CUPS > on a couple of computers here for the first time since I > started > installing FreeBSD them, it all seemed very straightforward > and I didn't > see anything that could even through hyperbole be described > as involving > writing my own printer driver. I basically just set > up configuration for > CUPS, and it worked -- much more easily than it ever did > with Debian (my > OS of choice before I migrated stuff to FreeBSD). > Okay, after reading this, I used the "WayBack Machine" to review the printing section of the April 17, 2006 version of the Handbook. I was not able to find anything that is writing a print-driver per-se. In the "Advanced" section numerous shell scripts are described (some of which use printer commands directly), but they tend to use filters from the ports collection: http://web.archive.org/web/20060417220024/www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/printing-advanced.html There is a section in the "Simple" section that explicitly says PS != PCL. Part of the problem may be I did not have documentation for my printer, so did not know how to put it in postscript mode. I really did feel I needed the PCL 4 documentation at one point. I'm going to have to conclude I was mistaken. Regards, James Phillips __ Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 07:55:18PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:46:00 -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: > > Yeah, I hate that stuff. The GNU project is kind of like the Microsoft > > of the open source community, that way. > > Be happy that there at least is an info manual. In many cases, there > is NO local documentation, neither in man or info format. The usual > cases of documentation, often found in different Linusi, but as well > in some "modern software" on FreeBSD, are: > - bury the documentation in an arbitrary web location > - use a Wiki for documentation > - let the users write the documentation > - don't document anything. An info page is almost as bad as nothing, as far as I'm concerned. The GNU project has this bizarre idea that everybody in the world should use everything it produces and *nothing else*, no matter how painful it all is to use -- and assumes everybody should be using emacs, so obviously the baroque emacs-inspired interface to info pages is "ideal". Debian actually tended to be pretty good at manpage coverage of software and files on the system, but FreeBSD still manages to do at least slightly better most of the time -- and, for some reason, few of the other Linux distributions took advantage of the manpages produced by the Debian project. > > Fortunately, there are even "GUI only" projects that keep up with > the good manpage tradition. Have you ever tried "man opera" or > "man gmencoder"? On the other hand, most KDE stuff doesn't have > a manpage - of course, I can understand it. From their point of > view, the question would be: Who would want to read documentation? > Answer: Nobody. So why spend time to create it? This is one reason among many I have no interest in using KDE software. > > > The FHS isn't a Unix standard. It's a Linux distributions standard. > > It aims to be. To be . . . which one? I'm sure its proponents want it to take over the world, but frankly, I hope it fails miserably. They're actually doing things that break backward compatibility with older "standard" ways of doing things just for the sake of political expediency, which definitely gets my hackles up. > > > In the specific case of creating /etc/opt, you shouldn't really be > > damaging anything, but there's a very good reason that stuff is in > > /usr/local/etc -- so that when using separate filesystems for separate > > parts of the hierarchy, you don't separate the stuff installed in > > /usr/local from its configuration data. > > Especially in an environment with "elevated security", there are > resons to separate things filesystem wise. File permissions and > mount options are a topic there, and symlinking across partitions > is a no-go in such settings. That's another excellent point. > > > The FHS doesn't apply to FreeBSD (or any other BSD Unix, or any > > commercial UNIX system, for that matter), so it's not "breaking" > > anything. > > Just have a look at how Solaris, HP-UX or AIX organize things in > terms of directories. You'll be surprised every day where you > can find stange things. :-) Hell, I've been surprised at the strange places Red Hat keeps things sometimes, even when Linux distributions were my daily business. > > > Then again, I go out of my way to make sure I use network-attached > > PostScript laser printers, and they tend to be very well supported by > > CUPS on BSD Unix and other Unix-like OSes. > > Postscript capable network printers have the advanage that they don't > need any support. PS is the default output format for printing, so > there's no need to mess around with filters. Most office class printers > even include a spooling mechanism for the printer jobs, so this > takes away more work from the OS. You simply use the system's lpr > command to shove data into the printer, and it does the rest by itself. I kinda like having the ability to manage my printer spool from the system where the print job was created, though, using the same interface I used to configure the printer and send jobs to it in the first place. > > > Don't forget that `man man` will tell you stuff like how to access a > > manpage in a particular section of the Unix Manual: > > > > man n foo > > > > . . . where "n" is the section number and "foo" is the manpage in that > > section you want to read. > > It's worth mentioning that there are manpages that don't refer to a > particular binary, file, interface or function, but instead provide > information about maintenance operations and general introduction. > An example is > > % man intro > > There are other manpages that give hints for compiling the system, > such as "man build", and others. Indeed. Another is: man security -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth James Madison: "If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." pgp1i7JAWg8YR.pgp Description: PGP sig
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2
On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 10:09:30PM -0700, James Phillips wrote: > > Okay, after reading this, I used the "WayBack Machine" to review the > printing section of the April 17, 2006 version of the Handbook. > > I was not able to find anything that is writing a print-driver per-se. > In the "Advanced" section numerous shell scripts are described (some of > which use printer commands directly), but they tend to use filters from > the ports collection: > http://web.archive.org/web/20060417220024/www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/books/handbook/printing-advanced.html > > There is a section in the "Simple" section that explicitly says PS != > PCL. Part of the problem may be I did not have documentation for my > printer, so did not know how to put it in postscript mode. > > I really did feel I needed the PCL 4 documentation at one point. I'm > going to have to conclude I was mistaken. No biggie. We all make mistakes from time to time (even me). For most of my printing needs, I use an HP 4050N. Configuring CUPS to use it was very straightforward -- I just chose the most obvious values from the options presented to me, and everything worked beautifully. For most, if not all, network-attached HP printers, I rather suspect it'd be much the same. Anyway, best of luck with it. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] Quoth Malaclypse the Younger: "'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds." pgpN1jSnDDIwr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Sun 09 Aug 2009 at 06:52:31 PDT Chad Perrin wrote: An info page is almost as bad as nothing, as far as I'm concerned. The GNU project has this bizarre idea that everybody in the world should use everything it produces and *nothing else*, no matter how painful it all is to use -- and assumes everybody should be using emacs, so obviously the baroque emacs-inspired interface to info pages is "ideal". It has always puzzled me that Stallman set out to implement a Unix-like operating system and userland, when his roots seem to have been elsewhere. Sometimes I think he must have had a grudge against Unix and that he deliberately set out to pervert it. That would certainly explain some of the more bizarre things coming from GNU! Never forget, vi was created by the same guy who put together the original tapes of the Berkeley Software Distribution. ;-) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
On Sun, Aug 09, 2009 at 07:52:31AM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: > On Sat, Aug 08, 2009 at 07:55:18PM +0200, Polytropon wrote: > > On Sat, 8 Aug 2009 10:46:00 -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: > > > Yeah, I hate that stuff. The GNU project is kind of like the Microsoft > > > of the open source community, that way. > > > > Be happy that there at least is an info manual. In many cases, there > > is NO local documentation, neither in man or info format. The usual > > cases of documentation, often found in different Linusi, but as well > > in some "modern software" on FreeBSD, are: > > - bury the documentation in an arbitrary web location > > - use a Wiki for documentation > > - let the users write the documentation > > - don't document anything. > > An info page is almost as bad as nothing, as far as I'm concerned. The > GNU project has this bizarre idea that everybody in the world should use > everything it produces and *nothing else*, no matter how painful it all > is to use -- and assumes everybody should be using emacs, so obviously > the baroque emacs-inspired interface to info pages is "ideal". > > Debian actually tended to be pretty good at manpage coverage of software > and files on the system, but FreeBSD still manages to do at least > slightly better most of the time -- and, for some reason, few of the > other Linux distributions took advantage of the manpages produced by the > Debian project. The thing I notice is that the FreeBSD man pages are most often relevant for Linux too with only occasional exceptions for less common arguments and features. So, you run whatever Lunix and keep a FreeBSD handy for the documentation.Of course, that begs the question of why even have the Linux at all then, but that isn't the topic of the post. jerry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: > upgrade 7.2
>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2009 07:52:31 -0600, >> Chad Perrin said: C> An info page is almost as bad as nothing, as far as I'm concerned. Yup. However, the GNU folks do provide something for the rest of us; help2man accepts a GNU program name, runs it with the --help and --version arguments, and writes a pretty good manpage. me% wget http://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/help2man/help2man-1.36.4.tar.gz me% tar xzfv help2man-1.36.4.tar.gz me% cd help2man-1.36.4 me% ./configure --prefix=/usr/local --mandir=/usr/local/man root# make install me% make distclean If you have GNU tar installed: root# help2man /usr/local/bin/gtar > /usr/local/man/man1/gtar.1 -- Karl Vogel I don't speak for the USAF or my company Things that never happen in "Star Trek" #16: Counsellor Troi states something other than the blindingly obvious. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
> > > Many people's only familiarity with computers in general will be from a > Windows centric perspective. Somehow there is a tendency to believe that > inserting a CD, booting, and then proceeding to click "OK" in a dialog box a > few dozen times makes them some kind of expert when they successfully get > Windows installed. > > Coming from a Windows centric environment myself I initially found that > there was a great deal of material to be learned, and RTFM was the way to do > it. I've noticed people who come from university computer science programs > have a much better foundation upon which to build. Most computer users do > not fit this category, myself included. > > While this deficiency can be overcome with self study, I am also aware that > not everyone who reads documentation necessarily understands the material. > If too much background education is missing the documentation just resembles > gobbeldy-gook and is ignored, with the fall back position of "click OK a few > dozen times and the OS will take care of it for me" expected to pick up the > slack. > > I would not be where I am today in my understanding and use of FreeBSD if > not for the excellent documentation and surrounding community. I feel I owe > my success in utilizing FreeBSD to the people who took the time to write > this stuff down for people like me to use. It is with a great measure of > gratitude to these people I owe my success. > > > [snip] > > -Mike > In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a "Ubuntu" like movement in the FreeBSD corner. What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use FreeBSD. I am not saying that a Windows user should be able to feel right at home on a box running FreeBSD, but a computer user should. The problem herein, i am afraid, lies not with FreeBSD(or any other BSD flavour), nor with it's community, but with the computer user. Most computer users see an operating system(and the application they run most) as part of a computer. How many people say "My computer is broken" when µ$ Office doesn't start anymore. They don't care about which kernel they run, or which browser they use, they care about typing e-mail, chatting and watching youtube video's. (However sad it makes me that most people use less then 10% of the features/programs/potential/computing-power the computer came with, they do make sure we pay less for our components.) Even though I'd feel less "cool" or "nerdy" (which is basically the same thing ;-) ) if I'd run(or USE) the same OS as my 76 year old grandfather, it would be nice for him to be able to buy a computer for $20 less because it runs FreeBSD. To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. And when I mean "easier" I mean it should be done without bothering the user unless you about to "rm -rf /" as root, so to say. Since most people never reinstall their computer, making it easier to install a basic desktop system won't help my 76 year old grandpa, but it will make it easier for unsatisfied Windows users to try FreeBSD. Besides, in making it easy to install a basic desktop system, comes the hardest part of any *nix like system: defining a basic desktop and collecting the basic/standard applications. It's hard just to pick either one Gnome, KDE or XFCE (or iceWM ;-) ) let alone mail-clients, internet browsers, IM, etc. etc. One of the advantages of using a descent operating system is the freedom of choice. However most users don't care! I am more then happy to tel anyone which e-mail client not to use (Lotus notes, outlook express, anyone else's neck hears standing up?), but I don't want to tell people they HAVE to use Thunderbird(I do tell them they SHOULD but that's different) or evolution etc. The problem is, most people don't want to make this choice either. And the circle of life continues. So basically, to make sure people will be using freeBSD (or any *nix operating system) it needs to be easy to install (So that PC-manufacturers will ship their pc's with it), a nicely filled standard desktop environment with lot's of youtube/chat/word process capabilities and "I won't bother you with it but i'm updating" functionality. Just some thoughts.. I'll get back to work now... ... signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
On Thursday 06 August 2009 09:43:47 Mark Stapper wrote: > > In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a "Ubuntu" like movement > in the FreeBSD corner. > What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use > FreeBSD. [snip] > To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: > 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) > 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. > And when I mean "easier" I mean it should be done without bothering the > user unless you about to "rm -rf /" as root, so to say. This is what a couple of projects are already doing. PC-BSD springs to mind - I can't remember what the other one is called. PC-BSD is FreeBSD, pre-packaged with a usable desktop and its own simplified package manager. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
On Thu, Aug 6, 2009 at 2:56 AM, Jonathan McKeown wrote: > On Thursday 06 August 2009 09:43:47 Mark Stapper wrote: >> >> In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a "Ubuntu" like movement >> in the FreeBSD corner. >> What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use >> FreeBSD. > [snip] >> To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: >> 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) >> 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. >> And when I mean "easier" I mean it should be done without bothering the >> user unless you about to "rm -rf /" as root, so to say. > > This is what a couple of projects are already doing. PC-BSD springs to mind - > I can't remember what the other one is called. DesktopBSD > > PC-BSD is FreeBSD, pre-packaged with a usable desktop and its own simplified > package manager. > > Jonathan > ___ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
> In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a "Ubuntu" like movement > in the FreeBSD corner. > What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use > FreeBSD. > I am not saying that a Windows user should be able to feel right at home > on a box running FreeBSD, but a computer user should. > The problem herein, i am afraid, lies not with FreeBSD(or any other BSD > flavour), nor with it's community, but with the computer user. > Most computer users see an operating system(and the application they run > most) as part of a computer. > How many people say "My computer is broken" when µ$ Office doesn't start > anymore. > They don't care about which kernel they run, or which browser they use, > they care about typing e-mail, chatting and watching youtube video's. > (However sad it makes me that most people use less then 10% of the > features/programs/potential/computing-power the computer came with, they > do make sure we pay less for our components.) > Even though I'd feel less "cool" or "nerdy" (which is basically the same > thing ;-) ) if I'd run(or USE) the same OS as my 76 year old > grandfather, it would be nice for him to be able to buy a computer for > $20 less because it runs FreeBSD. > To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: > 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) > 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. > And when I mean "easier" I mean it should be done without bothering the > user unless you about to "rm -rf /" as root, so to say. > Since most people never reinstall their computer, making it easier to > install a basic desktop system won't help my 76 year old grandpa, but it > will make it easier for unsatisfied Windows users to try FreeBSD. > Besides, in making it easy to install a basic desktop system, comes the > hardest part of any *nix like system: defining a basic desktop and > collecting the basic/standard applications. > It's hard just to pick either one Gnome, KDE or XFCE (or iceWM ;-) ) let > alone mail-clients, internet browsers, IM, etc. etc. > One of the advantages of using a descent operating system is the freedom > of choice. However most users don't care! > I am more then happy to tel anyone which e-mail client not to use (Lotus > notes, outlook express, anyone else's neck hears standing up?), but I > don't want to tell people they HAVE to use Thunderbird(I do tell them > they SHOULD but that's different) or evolution etc. > The problem is, most people don't want to make this choice either. > And the circle of life continues. > So basically, to make sure people will be using freeBSD (or any *nix > operating system) it needs to be easy to install (So that > PC-manufacturers will ship their pc's with it), a nicely filled standard > desktop environment with lot's of youtube/chat/word process capabilities > and "I won't bother you with it but i'm updating" functionality. > Just some thoughts.. > I'll get back to work now... > ... I must say that I find this (new) thread a bit funny since it was inspired by a guy (the OP) who has been using fBSD for many years (over 5 . . . I can't remember the exact number). > > > ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
[snip] > In light of this, I would really enjoy seeing a "Ubuntu" like movement > in the FreeBSD corner. > What I mean is that it would be nice for my mother to install and use > FreeBSD. > I am not saying that a Windows user should be able to feel right at home > on a box running FreeBSD, but a computer user should. > The problem herein, i am afraid, lies not with FreeBSD(or any other BSD > flavour), nor with it's community, but with the computer user. > Most computer users see an operating system(and the application they run > most) as part of a computer. > How many people say "My computer is broken" when µ$ Office doesn't start > anymore. > They don't care about which kernel they run, or which browser they use, > they care about typing e-mail, chatting and watching youtube video's. > (However sad it makes me that most people use less then 10% of the > features/programs/potential/computing-power the computer came with, they > do make sure we pay less for our components.) > Even though I'd feel less "cool" or "nerdy" (which is basically the same > thing ;-) ) if I'd run(or USE) the same OS as my 76 year old > grandfather, it would be nice for him to be able to buy a computer for > $20 less because it runs FreeBSD. > To achieve this, there are two things that should be made easier: > 1. Installing a basic desktop system(next to any currently installed OS) > 2. Keeping the base system and ports up to date. > And when I mean "easier" I mean it should be done without bothering the > user unless you about to "rm -rf /" as root, so to say. > Since most people never reinstall their computer, making it easier to > install a basic desktop system won't help my 76 year old grandpa, but it > will make it easier for unsatisfied Windows users to try FreeBSD. > Besides, in making it easy to install a basic desktop system, comes the > hardest part of any *nix like system: defining a basic desktop and > collecting the basic/standard applications. > It's hard just to pick either one Gnome, KDE or XFCE (or iceWM ;-) ) let > alone mail-clients, internet browsers, IM, etc. etc. > One of the advantages of using a descent operating system is the freedom > of choice. However most users don't care! > I am more then happy to tel anyone which e-mail client not to use (Lotus > notes, outlook express, anyone else's neck hears standing up?), but I > don't want to tell people they HAVE to use Thunderbird(I do tell them > they SHOULD but that's different) or evolution etc. > The problem is, most people don't want to make this choice either. > And the circle of life continues. > So basically, to make sure people will be using freeBSD (or any *nix > operating system) it needs to be easy to install (So that > PC-manufacturers will ship their pc's with it), a nicely filled standard > desktop environment with lot's of youtube/chat/word process capabilities > and "I won't bother you with it but i'm updating" functionality. [/snip] What you're talking about is indeed needed and does, to an extent, exist; It's called PC-BSD, Ubuntu (as you mentioned) or even Microsoft Windows. I think it's great that such things exist. (Yes, even Windows.) I think it's great that they can help people, who would otherwise be helpless, use a computer to get their work done. I even applaud the efforts of the tyrannical Microsoft for largely accomplishing this feat. Hats off to all involved! But it doesn't end here... On the other end of the coin there is also a need for an operating system which does exactly what I, the user, commands it to do, regardless of what that could mean. For some things, I need a system which trusts me, the user, to make the right decisions. Knowing this, I must be willing to accept the consequences of my actions, should my choices prove to be incorrect. "If you prevent stupid people from doing stupid things, you prevent clever people from doing clever things." While one cannot throw any philosophy, in a blind fashion, at a given problem, there is some truth to the statement. Both types of systems are needed, and I sincerely hope that both continue to exist. -Modulok- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: FreeBSD for the common man(or woman) (was: upgrade 7.2 overwrites partitions)
On Thu, 6 Aug 2009 09:56:59 +0200, Jonathan McKeown wrote: > PC-BSD is FreeBSD, pre-packaged with a usable desktop and its own simplified > package manager. If you're talking about PBI, that's what the "average user" expects: You open a web browser (d'oh), search for what you think will be the software you need (plus-d'oh) and download it (doubleplus-d'oh). As long as you use PBI only, there's no interference with ports or packages, but you are not encouraged to use a "mix", allthough it's mostly possible. Don't get me wrong: I have several friends who use PC-BSD for years happily now, but it's definitely not my cup of tea for several reasons. PC-BSD does probide a KDE-based preconfigured environment and lots of preinstalled software. It's completely sufficient for the "average user", allthough not for the "average user in Germany", because KDE's internationalisation is not so good (Gnome's is better, as far as I've seen), and not all PBI packages do conform to the language setting (e. g. install in German, install kmplayer, it will be in English, and error messages will be in English, too, that scares the average German user away). -- Polytropon >From Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
