Re: I like Ubuntu
Chad Perrin wrote: > On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 01:51:34PM -0700, Chuck Swiger wrote: >> On Apr 19, 2007, at 1:14 PM, Chad Perrin wrote: >> [ ...diatribe deleted... ] >>> Is that clear enough for you? I'm not an imbecile that doesn't >>> know how >>> to use email, and I'm not using a mail client circa 1884 either. >> Several things are clear to me, actually. Feel free to set up your >> own FreeBSD-related lists if you don't care for how the official ones >> are configured, as your opinions on the matter aren't likely to >> affect the way things are. > > It only came up because you decided to insinuate that I'm either an > imbecile as relates to email or stuck in the stone age. You brought > the matter up -- not me. > ... at least you have not been called Rip Van Winkle *wink* Some putz-munkie called that because I share the same views on society. -- Best regards, Chris BOFH excuse #27: radiosity depletion ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007, Chad Perrin wrote: On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 01:51:34PM -0700, Chuck Swiger wrote: On Apr 19, 2007, at 1:14 PM, Chad Perrin wrote: [ ...diatribe deleted... ] Is that clear enough for you? I'm not an imbecile that doesn't know how to use email, and I'm not using a mail client circa 1884 either. Several things are clear to me, actually. Feel free to set up your own FreeBSD-related lists if you don't care for how the official ones are configured, as your opinions on the matter aren't likely to affect the way things are. It only came up because you decided to insinuate that I'm either an imbecile as relates to email or stuck in the stone age. You brought the matter up -- not me. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] "The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." - W. Somerset Maugham This is not the time or the place to comment about this particular topic anymore IMO, as this is a high traffic list and many people receive emails from this list. Therefore, I ask that this discussed on the thread be frozen. Like many OS comparison threads I've seen in the past, this has gotten out of control, and has mutated too much to be of any real use now, other than people getting their ires up and flaming across the list. Regards, -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 14:37:27 -0300 "Henry Lenzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 4/19/07, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Henry Lenzi wrote: > > > I find nothing brilliant in Debian's package management. It's heavily > > > dependent upon human intervention and just adds a layer of complexity > > > on top of a problem that was *already solved* in the Unix world, by > > > using Make files. Do they have a better backtracking algorithm then > > > Make? No. > > > > I don't understand this at all. > > It's quite obvious you don't. Neither do you! > > Assuming that Ubuntu's package > > management is nearly the same as Debian's (by means of apt-get etc.) > > then how do you figure it's heavily dependent on human intervention? > > > > Have you ever seen the process whereby Debian (and I keep saying > Debian because Ubuntu just piggybacks on the Debian developers) > releases packages? > > Their package management system is supposed to be about handling > dependencies automatically. Well, I'm not sure you've quite noticed > this, that FreeBSD (and the other BSDs) *also* handle dependencies > automatically. How? Because of the Magic Makefiles and its > backtracking algorithm! Well, funny, huh. No need to reinvent the > wheel, as 3 BSD Unixes demonstrate daily. > Stop comparing things which aren't comparable! *BSD ports system handles dependencies in a completely different manner and its building upon source. apt-get uses binary packages. The two systems has nothing in common. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 01:51:34PM -0700, Chuck Swiger wrote: > On Apr 19, 2007, at 1:14 PM, Chad Perrin wrote: > [ ...diatribe deleted... ] > >Is that clear enough for you? I'm not an imbecile that doesn't > >know how > >to use email, and I'm not using a mail client circa 1884 either. > > Several things are clear to me, actually. Feel free to set up your > own FreeBSD-related lists if you don't care for how the official ones > are configured, as your opinions on the matter aren't likely to > affect the way things are. It only came up because you decided to insinuate that I'm either an imbecile as relates to email or stuck in the stone age. You brought the matter up -- not me. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] "The ability to quote is a serviceable substitute for wit." - W. Somerset Maugham ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 03:16:28PM -0500, Jeffrey Goldberg wrote: > [mailed (but cc line trimmed) and posted] > > On Apr 19, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Chad Perrin wrote: > >Any who get emails from me > >in this thread today, please check to see if they were addressed to > >the > >list in CC, and if not, forward them to the list if you don't mind. > > Surely that will result in multiple copies of your posts all as > forwarded messages from others. Instead why don't you go through > your sent mail and then resend (to the list only) those that you feel > should be posted. > > Given the way this thread has been going recently, it might be wise > to take the opportunity to give a second judgment about whether the > message should be posted. > > Unless I am specifically asked something, I'll try to make this my > last post to this thread. Tell ya what -- forget it. I don't have time for that crap. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] "There comes a time in the history of any project when it becomes necessary to shoot the engineers and begin production." - MacUser, November 1990 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 11:44:02AM -0700, Chuck Swiger wrote: > On Apr 19, 2007, at 11:34 AM, Chad Perrin wrote: > >I just accidentally sent some responses to comments in various > >parts of > >this discussion thread that targeted only the individual people who > >sent > >the emails to which I responded. I actually meant to respond to the > >list in each case. The lack of a list-reply is playing hell with my > >ability to consistently respond to the list. > > Every functional mailclient ought to support "reply to all". If > yours doesn't, consider using something like Thunderbird from > Mozilla, which runs on most platforms... I'm using mutt. It supports bloody well everything. The problem is not that it doesn't support group-reply (what Windows-users tend to call "reply to all"), but that the list doesn't support list-reply and the direct reply doesn't respond to the list either. Because of the way mailing lists usually work, my habitual approach is to try list-reply, and if that doesn't work, to use the standard reply. This keeps the signal to noise ratio for individuals on the list to whom I'm replying to a minimum, as a group-reply sends an email to *every single person that has been involved in a given subthread*, which is really obnoxious. I'm not a fan of getting multiple copies of emails due to a group-reply, and I'm sure others feel the same. Thus, I choose to avoid using the group-reply method when at all possible -- especially since I don't have time to spend on editing the to and cc headers of every single email I send out. Is that clear enough for you? I'm not an imbecile that doesn't know how to use email, and I'm not using a mail client circa 1884 either. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] unix virus: If you're using a unixlike OS, please forward this to 20 others and erase your system partition. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
[mailed (but cc line trimmed) and posted] On Apr 19, 2007, at 1:34 PM, Chad Perrin wrote: Any who get emails from me in this thread today, please check to see if they were addressed to the list in CC, and if not, forward them to the list if you don't mind. Surely that will result in multiple copies of your posts all as forwarded messages from others. Instead why don't you go through your sent mail and then resend (to the list only) those that you feel should be posted. Given the way this thread has been going recently, it might be wise to take the opportunity to give a second judgment about whether the message should be posted. Unless I am specifically asked something, I'll try to make this my last post to this thread. Cheers, -j -- Jeffrey Goldberghttp://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Thu, Apr 19, 2007 at 02:42:57PM -0300, Henry Lenzi wrote: > >> I'll give you a real example. I have a licensed mathematics package > >> called Maple. It expensive. Ubuntu (Debian) just broke the > >> installation from one upgrade to another. They take pride in not > >> keeping backwards compatibility. Then, I used FreeBSD with the Red Hat > >> emulation software, ad I have it running. > > > > Yes. Well, you try that: buy expensive software and go use Ubuntu. > Then, check if works between some release cycle. > > I will offer a piece of advice: Linux is so prone to mutation and so > proud in their disregard for any sane ABI policy, that I recommend for > those that wish to use commercial software on Linux that they choose > Red Hat, because that is what all the vendors support, mostly. I just accidentally sent some responses to comments in various parts of this discussion thread that targeted only the individual people who sent the emails to which I responded. I actually meant to respond to the list in each case. The lack of a list-reply is playing hell with my ability to consistently respond to the list. Any who get emails from me in this thread today, please check to see if they were addressed to the list in CC, and if not, forward them to the list if you don't mind. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] unix virus: If you're using a unixlike OS, please forward this to 20 others and erase your system partition. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Henry Lenzi wrote: > On 4/19/07, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Henry Lenzi wrote: >> > I find nothing brilliant in Debian's package management. It's heavily >> > dependent upon human intervention and just adds a layer of complexity >> > on top of a problem that was *already solved* in the Unix world, by >> > using Make files. Do they have a better backtracking algorithm then >> > Make? No. >> >> I don't understand this at all. > > It's quite obvious you don't. > >> Assuming that Ubuntu's package >> management is nearly the same as Debian's (by means of apt-get etc.) >> then how do you figure it's heavily dependent on human intervention? >> > > Have you ever seen the process whereby Debian (and I keep saying > Debian because Ubuntu just piggybacks on the Debian developers) > releases packages? > > Their package management system is supposed to be about handling > dependencies automatically. Well, I'm not sure you've quite noticed > this, that FreeBSD (and the other BSDs) *also* handle dependencies > automatically. How? Because of the Magic Makefiles and its > backtracking algorithm! Well, funny, huh. No need to reinvent the > wheel, as 3 BSD Unixes demonstrate daily. > >> >> > Debian's package management is the number one cause that distro just >> > got slower and slower in their release cycle. >> > >> Interesting - so, the semi annual (of course this means 2 times a year) >> release of say Ubuntu isn't in line with say, OpenBSD or even FreeBSD >> (when they manage to push our 2 releases in a year). > > I said Debian and you said Ubuntu. My point was that the packaging > system they have impinges an extra work load on their "developers" > (there aren't really developers in Debian, only packagers. Only one or > two develop system-level software, unlike in the BSDs). > Fine. Ubuntu release sin a 6 months cycle. That is the reason they > created Ubuntu, because Debian couldn't handle it. Notice that Ubuntu > has full time developers on their payroll, *and* they piggyback on > Debian. My point being that part of the blame lies in the technology > which, in fact, is an opinion seldom heard. A funny thing that the guy > who actually invented dpkg doesn't really use it anymore... > Here's what you do: plot a graphic of the growth of number of packages > in Debian, and then observe how that relates to their release cycle. > You'll notice that the more packages they have, the more they stall. > >> >> Base on what you have stated - you either used a very old version of >> Debian or a very old version of Ubuntu. Then again, there is always the >> notion that you may not have used any of the above and are just talking >> out your keister ;) >> >> > Henry Lenzi > > Yes I have, I used Debian for over 5 years. I much prefer FreeBSD > nowadays. Anyways, I'll not have an argument with you. I care nothing > about Ubuntu or Debian or your opinons on whether I've used Debian or > not. That is what I think. I'll just leave it at that. You think > Ubuntu is great, good for you. > > Henry Lenzi > > As I mentioned before - the Op's question was/is about Ubuntu. I simply clarified the fact that you were muddying the waters by stating Debian. And perhaps its true - Ubu is nothing more then a better Debian - but i must reiterate the fact - the thread was about Ubu. By muddying the waters of the thread - you are lending information that isn't pertainant to the Op or anyone else for that matter. I will admit one thing, from the wording of your thread, it appears as I mis interrupted what you meant. While I read it from an end user point of view - you clearly meant it from a programmers (or package maintaners) point of view. Perhaps had you made that clearer (not only for me, but others) this part of the thread would not have gotten this far. -- Best regards, Chris Be sure each item is properly endorsed. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
> I'll give you a real example. I have a licensed mathematics package > called Maple. It expensive. Ubuntu (Debian) just broke the > installation from one upgrade to another. They take pride in not > keeping backwards compatibility. Then, I used FreeBSD with the Red Hat > emulation software, ad I have it running. Yes. Well, you try that: buy expensive software and go use Ubuntu. Then, check if works between some release cycle. I will offer a piece of advice: Linux is so prone to mutation and so proud in their disregard for any sane ABI policy, that I recommend for those that wish to use commercial software on Linux that they choose Red Hat, because that is what all the vendors support, mostly. Henry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On 4/19/07, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Henry Lenzi wrote: > I find nothing brilliant in Debian's package management. It's heavily > dependent upon human intervention and just adds a layer of complexity > on top of a problem that was *already solved* in the Unix world, by > using Make files. Do they have a better backtracking algorithm then > Make? No. I don't understand this at all. It's quite obvious you don't. Assuming that Ubuntu's package management is nearly the same as Debian's (by means of apt-get etc.) then how do you figure it's heavily dependent on human intervention? Have you ever seen the process whereby Debian (and I keep saying Debian because Ubuntu just piggybacks on the Debian developers) releases packages? Their package management system is supposed to be about handling dependencies automatically. Well, I'm not sure you've quite noticed this, that FreeBSD (and the other BSDs) *also* handle dependencies automatically. How? Because of the Magic Makefiles and its backtracking algorithm! Well, funny, huh. No need to reinvent the wheel, as 3 BSD Unixes demonstrate daily. > Debian's package management is the number one cause that distro just > got slower and slower in their release cycle. Interesting - so, the semi annual (of course this means 2 times a year) release of say Ubuntu isn't in line with say, OpenBSD or even FreeBSD (when they manage to push our 2 releases in a year). I said Debian and you said Ubuntu. My point was that the packaging system they have impinges an extra work load on their "developers" (there aren't really developers in Debian, only packagers. Only one or two develop system-level software, unlike in the BSDs). Fine. Ubuntu release sin a 6 months cycle. That is the reason they created Ubuntu, because Debian couldn't handle it. Notice that Ubuntu has full time developers on their payroll, *and* they piggyback on Debian. My point being that part of the blame lies in the technology which, in fact, is an opinion seldom heard. A funny thing that the guy who actually invented dpkg doesn't really use it anymore... Here's what you do: plot a graphic of the growth of number of packages in Debian, and then observe how that relates to their release cycle. You'll notice that the more packages they have, the more they stall. Base on what you have stated - you either used a very old version of Debian or a very old version of Ubuntu. Then again, there is always the notion that you may not have used any of the above and are just talking out your keister ;) > Henry Lenzi Yes I have, I used Debian for over 5 years. I much prefer FreeBSD nowadays. Anyways, I'll not have an argument with you. I care nothing about Ubuntu or Debian or your opinons on whether I've used Debian or not. That is what I think. I'll just leave it at that. You think Ubuntu is great, good for you. Henry Lenzi ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Henry Lenzi wrote: > I find nothing brilliant in Debian's package management. It's heavily > dependent upon human intervention and just adds a layer of complexity > on top of a problem that was *already solved* in the Unix world, by > using Make files. Do they have a better backtracking algorithm then > Make? No. I don't understand this at all. Assuming that Ubuntu's package management is nearly the same as Debian's (by means of apt-get etc.) then how do you figure it's heavily dependent on human intervention? Perhaps you have portupgrade (that happens to be fairly intense when it comes to human input and or intervention) confused with apt-get and or apt-get upgrade/update? If you are not confused, then perhaps the version of Debian or Ubuntu was in it's infancy stages? > Debian's package management is the number one cause that distro just > got slower and slower in their release cycle. Interesting - so, the semi annual (of course this means 2 times a year) release of say Ubuntu isn't in line with say, OpenBSD or even FreeBSD (when they manage to push our 2 releases in a year). Base on what you have stated - you either used a very old version of Debian or a very old version of Ubuntu. Then again, there is always the notion that you may not have used any of the above and are just talking out your keister ;) > Henry Lenzi -- Best regards, Chris BOFH excuse #174: Backbone adjustment ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Henry Lenzi wrote: > On 4/13/07, Claude Menski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? >> ___ > > I'll give you a real example. I have a licensed mathematics package > called Maple. It expensive. Ubuntu (Debian) just broke the > installation from one upgrade to another. They take pride in not > keeping backwards compatibility. Then, I used FreeBSD with the Red Hat > emulation software, ad I have it running. We'll have to take your word for that on this. > Another example: documentation (with whole books on the system desgin) > and a community more knowledgeable. While I myself agree that FreeBSD documentation is damned good - Ubuntu is pretty damned good also. I can't say either pro nor con for Debian. > Plus, ports. You don have to wait 6 months like in Debian. This may or may not be true - I myself have not used Debian. I have used Ubuntu (6.10 and upgraded to 7.04) and I was happy with the applications I installed/used. One thing to mention - you keep saying Debian. While it's true Ubuntu is Debian-ish (A distro of, a fork - whatever they call it), I think that you may be tainting your overall opinion based on Debian. IIRC - the op specifically stated Ubuntu and NOT Debian. Just ensureing that you don't cloud the already murky waters of this thread. > > Additionally, you can run Linux software under emulation layer. Agreed - and in many cases, even better then on a Linux distro. > BSD license. This goes without saying. > Cheers. > > Henry > -- Best regards, Chris BOFH excuse #345: Having to manually track the satellite. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
I find nothing brilliant in Debian's package management. It's heavily dependent upon human intervention and just adds a layer of complexity on top of a problem that was *already solved* in the Unix world, by using Make files. Do they have a better backtracking algorith then Make? No. Debian's package management is the number one cause that distro just got slower and slower in their release cycle. Henry Lenzi ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On 4/13/07, Claude Menski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? ___ I'll give you a real example. I havea licensed mathematics package called Maple. It expensive. Ubuntu (Debian) just broke the installation from one upgrade to another. They take pride in not keeping backwards compatibility. Then, I used FreeBSD with the Red Hat emulation software, ad I have it runing. Another example: documentation (with whole books on the system desgin) and a community more knowledgeable. Plus, ports. You don have to wait 6 months like in Debian. Additionally, you can run Linux software under emulation layer. BSD license. Cheers. Henry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On 4/14/07, Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Sat, 14 Apr 2007, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >> My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of I suppose your the kind of user that would benefit from using PC-BSD. PC-BSD is not a distro. It FreeBSB + friendlier installation and package management à la Windows or Mac (and ports if you like). Henry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
I tried Ubuntu once and went through an upgrade. This was after some years of Debian at home. There were problems, I thought it was a joke. The documentation was also very bad, having to google for web (PHP forums) pages with the right fix. Looked very ammateurish. I moved to FreeBSD. I had enough of Debian-related problems. [ ]s Henry ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: [Fwd: Re: I like Ubuntu]
Hopefully that helps answer some of your questions. Overall, I find the FreeBSD ports system to be more flexible, but an acceptable runner-up for purposes of binary package-based OSes in my opinion is Debian. Just to add my .02$ to this topic, speaking from a perspective of a FreeBSD lover in a company which prefers Debian, I must say that, even though I administer a couple of FreeBSD boxes, I sometimes envy my fellow Debian admins who manage tens of Debian boxes with a really quick apt-get upgrade (or whatever the command) to fix a hole or apply a patch vs. updating the source tree and making world on FreeBSD (not to mention mergemaster which is a nightmare and the build process which lasts for hours if not days). I'm quite frightened by the effort I would have to invest to get the same effect administering a large number of FreeBSD boxes. Mind you, I'm not actually talking about the ports tree; given one of the portupgrade/portmanager/portmaster tools, I usually find my way through upgrading ports via source to be rather simple. On the other hand, on Debian there is a price for simplicity, stable still ships with really old 3rd party apps like Mysql 4.0, Apache 1.3, PHP 4.3... To conclude my rantings, I really appreciate the effort behind binary updates and freebsd-update project. Colin is doing a great job and by using portsnap and/or freebsd-update, FreeBSD is slowly overcoming the complicated upgrade process which combined with good ports tree and above mentioned portupgrading toolset and portaudit makes for an outstanding OS. Regards, -- Nino ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
[Fwd: Re: I like Ubuntu]
Forwarded on behalf of Chad Perrin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Mon, Apr 16, 2007 at 10:29:43AM +0100, Alex Zbyslaw wrote: How does apt-get compare to something like yum/up2date on FC/RHEL? I.e. is there something that makes apt-get better? It uses a package format that requires more information about the software (that's a good thing), it's faster, and the command line tools provide more comprehensive functionality. The rest of the benefits of using APT over using YUM that come to mind for me are related to the fact that I've mostly used APT with Debian, and are distro-specific benefits, not benefits of the package manager itself. I haven't used up2date at all, so I really can't comment. I imagine it is to YUM as aptitude is to APT. I prefer APT over aptitude and, based on what I've heard about up2date from people who have used it, I gather I'd prefer YUM over up2date. Aptitude seems to be designed to be more "user friendly" than APT itself, and ultimately ends up just being a reshuffled deck of defaults all tied together through a single command, reducing the fine-tuned scriptability of APT. Some people like it, but a couple years ago when the Debian maintainers were talking about phasing out APT entirely in favor of aptitude, they apparently got enough complaints that they reversed that decision. Now, you have both APT and aptitude. APT also has a few GUI front ends. From what I've seen, Synaptic seems to be the most stable and complete, and it's pretty nice (as far as GUI software managers are concerned). I hear there's a GUI front end to up2date as well, but I don't know of anyone that actually uses (and recommends) the thing. My main issue with all the RedHat OSes is that you are effectively stuck with whatever version of packages was "combined" to make a particular release. So if the machine you have came with say postfix 2.0, your stuck with that for the lifetime of the OS. If you suddenly have a need for 2.2, you can try using src rpms, but somehow they never seem to be available for your particular OS version, and whether the ones for a later OS version compile or not is hit-and-miss. Sure, it's dead easy to yum update say postfix 2.0 to postfix 2.0+some security fix, but that's just not enough for me. The APT system allows "pinning", where you can set preferences to use a given version of a package or to use a specific release branch's version no matter what version number that is at any given time. At any moment, there are at minimum four supported release branches of Debian. Additionally, you can create your own packages or add third-party archives to your sources.list file to allow you to select yet another package version from outside the official release branches. None of these options are quite as flexible as the FreeBSD ports system for choosing specific software versions, and from what I've seen it seems that the really mature binary package systems are more brittle, in that deviation from expected use of provided packages can cause breakage more easily than a source-based system like the FreeBSD ports tree. (There. I'm on-topic again.) I resent having to upgrade the OS to get up-to-date packages that have no specific relationship to anything I understand as the OS. That's especially a problem for ISP-rented servers, where upgrading the OS is a matter of having to get a new server, or taking your life in your hands and trying a "yum" update of the OS. But even for a "desktop", it's just far more work than I believe should be required. FreeBSD ports/packages are not perfect, but at least I can update third-party software without upgrading the OS. Debian Testing and Unstable release branches provide a smooth, gradual upgrade path so that you don't need to do a complete system reinstall or upgrade to get updated packages. Of course, your packages do still get upgraded on their schedule, not on yours, but certain packages never upgrade automatically -- like the kernel. You can upgrade your kernel version easily, though, if you wish to do so (using an apt-get install command). My understanding is that most of the Debian-derived distros other than Debian itself have strayed from that policy, however, and to get the benefits of the software versions shipped with the new OS releases you are expected to upgrade the entire system. It's probably easier to get around that with APT-based distributions, simply by adding archives to your sources.list file and setting preferences appropriately to pin specific packages to specific release versions, and gradually pin more and more packages to whatever version you want, but that can become quite a bit of work if that's how you want to handle it. Hopefully that helps answer some of your questions. Overall, I find the FreeBSD ports system to be more flexible, but an acceptable runner-up for purposes of binary package-based OSes in my opinion is Debian. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.or
Re: I like Ubuntu
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a bit of a challenge. My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of installing software and keeping it up-to-date: 'pkg_add -r' and 'portupgrade -aP' simply can't hold a candle to 'apt-get install' and 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. How does apt-get compare to something like yum/up2date on FC/RHEL? I.e. is there something that makes apt-get better? My main issue with all the RedHat OSes is that you are effectively stuck with whatever version of packages was "combined" to make a particular release. So if the machine you have came with say postfix 2.0, your stuck with that for the lifetime of the OS. If you suddenly have a need for 2.2, you can try using src rpms, but somehow they never seem to be available for your particular OS version, and whether the ones for a later OS version compile or not is hit-and-miss. Sure, it's dead easy to yum update say postfix 2.0 to postfix 2.0+some security fix, but that's just not enough for me. I resent having to upgrade the OS to get up-to-date packages that have no specific relationship to anything I understand as the OS. That's especially a problem for ISP-rented servers, where upgrading the OS is a matter of having to get a new server, or taking your life in your hands and trying a "yum" update of the OS. But even for a "desktop", it's just far more work than I believe should be required. FreeBSD ports/packages are not perfect, but at least I can update third-party software without upgrading the OS. --Alex ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Op zondag 15 april 2007, schreef Gary Kline: > I like both Gnome and KDE; altho parts of KDE work better for my > mindset. SO nutshell, can I upgrade my present default Gnome > "Desktop" (aka: wm:) to be KDE?? Or equally, is there some > magic command to install more KDE-ware? Acouple weeks ago here > someone recommended "kmplayer" and the KDE browser. And, YES, > it's almost like push button. The KDE CD burner is also easier to > use. But the Gnome "Terminal" is much more intuitive than the > KDE write of xterm. (blah, [bar] :) > > (I find that I have tons of KDE games, and I'm not rreally a > gamer. No, I haven't a clue where the games came from.) Probably the kdegames package. You can safely remove it without compromising your system :) Kind regards, -- Bram Schoenmakers What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Never mind. (Punch, 1855) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 12:34:46PM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: > Chad Perrin wrote: > >On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 11:52:18AM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: > > > >>Also, it's Linux-based so documentation in terms of manpages are most > >>likely non-existent, like with Gentoo Linux. > >> > > > >That's by no means universal among Linux distributions. Debian actually > >provides better manpage coverage than FreeBSD, for instance. > But some of the manpages are out of date, like for the coreutils (I > think mv/cp was one of them?). I like the comment in there about > Stallman liking infopages but Debian-ites having to create a manpage :). > I personally hate infopages, but that's me. > You're not the only one who destest those bleeping "info"-type writeups. Forward and BAckwards make sense; but then what is Up/Down? And a yup on the outdated docs too. There is a seriously K00L music app (Gnome), but the documentation was way out of date in '06. ((But then, I'd much rather code 1,000 lines that write just a few ages of docs, so, I understand the problem. Code you can *read* and figure out. Different with even good docs. I think the best man pages include a feew examples... . gary PS: if only we could be god-for-a-day,huh:-) :-) > -Garrett > ___ > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public Service Unix ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Gary Kline wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 01:58:17PM -0500, Chris wrote: >> Actually - Ubuntu's default isn't KDE, it's Gnome. Kubuntu is what you >> want if you prefer the K environment - however, that's not to say that >> if you install Ubuntu, you can't install KDE (or XFCE4 - that happens to >> be Xubuntu). >> > > > I like both Gnome and KDE; altho parts of KDE work better for my > mindset. SO nutshell, can I upgrade my present default Gnome > "Desktop" (aka: wm:) to be KDE?? Or equally, is there some > magic command to install more KDE-ware? Acouple weeks ago here > someone recommended "kmplayer" and the KDE browser. And, YES, > it's almost like push button. The KDE CD burner is also easier to > use. But the Gnome "Terminal" is much more intuitive than the > KDE write of xterm. (blah, [bar] :) > > (I find that I have tons of KDE games, and I'm not rreally a > gamer. No, I haven't a clue where the games came from.) > > gary Im the same way - I have a mix of Gnome/KDE items. Ubuntu by default is Gnome - that's not to say you can't install KDE and or other WM. Kbuntu is your KDE install whereas Xubuntu is the XFCE4 install - again, you are free to install any part of any WM you want to use by enabling Universe and Multiverse and by using Synamptic Package Manager. The file you need to edit for Multiverse and Universe is /etc/apt/sources.list - Uncomment then run the above app and you'll be able to pick and choose. Also keep in mind, you DON't need to install all of KDE to run a few apps. Under FBSD, I run XFCE4 - and I seem to recall that you needed to ensure a fair amount of KDE needed to be installed before the fact. If you're serious about Ubuntu etc, I'll gladly lend you what I have learned off list. -- Best regards, Chris Available while quantities last. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 01:58:17PM -0500, Chris wrote: > > Actually - Ubuntu's default isn't KDE, it's Gnome. Kubuntu is what you > want if you prefer the K environment - however, that's not to say that > if you install Ubuntu, you can't install KDE (or XFCE4 - that happens to > be Xubuntu). > I like both Gnome and KDE; altho parts of KDE work better for my mindset. SO nutshell, can I upgrade my present default Gnome "Desktop" (aka: wm:) to be KDE?? Or equally, is there some magic command to install more KDE-ware? Acouple weeks ago here someone recommended "kmplayer" and the KDE browser. And, YES, it's almost like push button. The KDE CD burner is also easier to use. But the Gnome "Terminal" is much more intuitive than the KDE write of xterm. (blah, [bar] :) (I find that I have tons of KDE games, and I'm not rreally a gamer. No, I haven't a clue where the games came from.) gary > > -- > Best regards, > Chris > > BOFH excuse #158: > > Defunct processes > ___ > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public Service Unix ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Gary Kline wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 11:10:17PM -0500, Chris wrote: >> Gary Kline wrote: >>> On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:34:29PM -0500, Chris wrote: >> Gary - >> >> Not so - upgrading Ubuntu is pretty much a click. Have a look at this >> URL and you'll see 2 ways to upgrade >> >> http://onlyubuntu.blogspot.com/2007/03/upgrade-ubuntu-610-edgy-eft-to-ubuntu.html >> >> But in a nutshell - Ubuntu (Debian) is nothing more then editing a >> source file and 2 commands. apt-get update and apt-get dist-upgrade >> >> As to the comment about DNS - I agree 100% >> > > Thanks for the URL, Chris, but Edgy is going to be passe in a few > days; I'll wait for 7.1X and watch the forums for gripes. My > second upgrade just took time (18-20+ hours to get thru my IDNL > line); otherwise it was just-a-click. My first upgrade took more > than a week of clicking here and there until finally thtings > worked. Other people were having trouble with 6.10 too, so I just > held back. > > ...But then, in the distant past (I've run FBSD since 2.0.5), I > had troubles with upgrading this OS... and this is the most > bulletproof operating system in the [known :) ] universe. > Live 'n' learn, eh? --Maybe I'll go for "FIESTY FAWN(?)" > in a month. > > gary > Gary - I actually went from Edgy to Feisty last night. While the latter is still not released (I here around the 19th of April) it's pretty solid and as I mentioned, the upgrade of everything was to the point with that URL. -- Best regards, Chris Contest void where prohibited by law. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On 2007-04-14 12:34, Garrett Cooper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Chad Perrin wrote: >>On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 11:52:18AM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: >>>Also, it's Linux-based so documentation in terms of manpages are >>>most likely non-existent, like with Gentoo Linux. >> >> That's by no means universal among Linux distributions. Debian actually >> provides better manpage coverage than FreeBSD, for instance. > > But some of the manpages are out of date, like for the coreutils > (I think mv/cp was one of them?). I like the comment in there about > Stallman liking infopages but Debian-ites having to create a manpage :). > I personally hate infopages, but that's me. One of the most important reasons why I like FreeBSD is the quality of the documentation. I find it rather appaling that running "man mv" on Debian shows a warning in the SEE ALSO section: % SEE ALSO % The full documentation for mv is maintained as a Texinfo % manual. If the info and mv programs are properly installed % at your site, the command % % info mv % % should give you access to the complete manual. What is amusing is that exactly the same warning is displayed when one runs 'info mv' :P The full documentation of mv(1) *is* available as an Info page, but it is not where the manpage points the user. By lurking at the FreeBSD cvs-commit lists, while I was a BSD newbie, I noticed source changes being rolled back because their documentation was not ready yet. I saw BSD people demanding than manpages are updated after a source commit, and dozens of merges from HEAD to one of the STABLE branches which treated manpages as first class citizens of the source tree, and not some entertaining but always out-of-date pariah. - Giorgos ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Gary Kline wrote: > On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:34:29PM -0500, Chris wrote: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> On Sat, 14 Apr 2007, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: >>> > > [[ ... ]] > >>> In my case this included leaning to think in 'Unix', and reaching an >>> understanding with (rather than of) regular expressions, sed, and awk. >>> >>> My workstation/laptop hardware does not really allow the option of >>> building things like KDE and OpenOffice, so I upgrade basically by >>> starting over with packages. I usually can do this in an hour or so. >>> When I first started, I found the differences between BSDI, FreeBSD, and >>> Linux confusing. Now mostly its more of an irritant than having to use >>> my son's mac to watch ESPN videos. > > > I've been experimenting with system tuning to get my slower > (400MHz) laptop and tower cases to run lots ffaster with X ... > and, obv'ly, lots slower for less important processes. As a > hard-core CLI type, I'd like to see lightweight apps like links > tied to a GUI version of mutt. Or something similarly > lightweight where you can click on a URL and have it instantiate > links. If you must-hae 3D, then Xaw-3D will do the magic. > > >> To me, this is where Ubuntu (I can't speak for other Linux distros) is >> the clear winner over FreeBSD on the desktop. Ubuntu is near >> out-of-the-box when it comes to media (audio/video/etc) of any sort. >> >> Sure, there are a few steps to get it all to gel - but once you enter a >> few lines (or if you prefer point-n-click) - you never have to worry >> about media working again (trust me, I used to keep a Windows box just >> to do the things I mentioned). >> >> Again - I'm talking about a desktop use. I have used Ubuntu server (both >> i386 and sparc) and FreeBSD is still my fav. however, Ubuntu (for >> installing LAMP) is nearly even w/FreeBSD. >> >> To me, apt-get is certainly cleaner and superior to >> portupgrade/portmanager. Perhaps someday either or will be as reliable >> as apt-get. >> >> Just my opinions of course. > > > Mine too, as far as ease-of-use goes. Ubuntu is a different kind > of Linux where they say up front that Linux is only a kernel; > that the rest is up to the real hackers, the app folks. My only > concern with Ubuntu is upgrading from my current 6.06 to 7.XX. > I can upgrade FBSD with one finger. Upgrading Ubuntu isn't > quite push-button. Not yet anyway. > > The last thing: I'll never trust my DNS server to anything > except the Berkeley distributions. > > and that's my dime's worth! > > gary Gary - Not so - upgrading Ubuntu is pretty much a click. Have a look at this URL and you'll see 2 ways to upgrade http://onlyubuntu.blogspot.com/2007/03/upgrade-ubuntu-610-edgy-eft-to-ubuntu.html But in a nutshell - Ubuntu (Debian) is nothing more then editing a source file and 2 commands. apt-get update and apt-get dist-upgrade As to the comment about DNS - I agree 100% -- Best regards, Chris BOFH excuse #84: Someone is standing on the ethernet cable, causing a kink in the cable ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:34:29PM -0500, Chris wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Sat, 14 Apr 2007, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > > [[ ... ]] > > In my case this included leaning to think in 'Unix', and reaching an > > understanding with (rather than of) regular expressions, sed, and awk. > > > > My workstation/laptop hardware does not really allow the option of > > building things like KDE and OpenOffice, so I upgrade basically by > > starting over with packages. I usually can do this in an hour or so. > > When I first started, I found the differences between BSDI, FreeBSD, and > > Linux confusing. Now mostly its more of an irritant than having to use > > my son's mac to watch ESPN videos. I've been experimenting with system tuning to get my slower (400MHz) laptop and tower cases to run lots ffaster with X ... and, obv'ly, lots slower for less important processes. As a hard-core CLI type, I'd like to see lightweight apps like links tied to a GUI version of mutt. Or something similarly lightweight where you can click on a URL and have it instantiate links. If you must-hae 3D, then Xaw-3D will do the magic. > > To me, this is where Ubuntu (I can't speak for other Linux distros) is > the clear winner over FreeBSD on the desktop. Ubuntu is near > out-of-the-box when it comes to media (audio/video/etc) of any sort. > > Sure, there are a few steps to get it all to gel - but once you enter a > few lines (or if you prefer point-n-click) - you never have to worry > about media working again (trust me, I used to keep a Windows box just > to do the things I mentioned). > > Again - I'm talking about a desktop use. I have used Ubuntu server (both > i386 and sparc) and FreeBSD is still my fav. however, Ubuntu (for > installing LAMP) is nearly even w/FreeBSD. > > To me, apt-get is certainly cleaner and superior to > portupgrade/portmanager. Perhaps someday either or will be as reliable > as apt-get. > > Just my opinions of course. Mine too, as far as ease-of-use goes. Ubuntu is a different kind of Linux where they say up front that Linux is only a kernel; that the rest is up to the real hackers, the app folks. My only concern with Ubuntu is upgrading from my current 6.06 to 7.XX. I can upgrade FBSD with one finger. Upgrading Ubuntu isn't quite push-button. Not yet anyway. The last thing: I'll never trust my DNS server to anything except the Berkeley distributions. and that's my dime's worth! gary > > > -- > Best regards, > Chris > > If not completely satisfied, return for full refund of purchase price. > > ___ > [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" > -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public Service Unix ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 04:15:43PM -0400, Parv wrote: > in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > wrote Paul Butler thusly... > > > > If, however, heart-stopping speed appeals to you, you want > > intelligently planned technology with the latest stable > > applications, you are operating web servers, or you just plain > > want to get expertise in real Unix then there is nothing like > > FreeBSD. > > > > Merely by living with FreeBSD for a year or two on your desktop or > > laptop, you will really deepen your understanding of unix-derived > > systems in a way which is not possible with Linux. This may be > > very helpful if you either have or contemplate a career in IT. > > I note that Paul mentioned "IT" not a "Unix System Administration". > So consider the following as my rant. > > There seems to be no entity which offers *entry level* Unix System > Administration position to those not already living in immediate > surrounding area (even if one is willing to relocate (at one's own > expense)). And "Junior" positions require near 3 years of Unix or > Linux *paid* experience. > > In my experience, the Unix knowledge & experience gained by using > FreeBSD (despite the number of years using it) on a machine > connected to Internet -- but not actively taking part in LAN-y > things like internal DNS, file- and backup/restore server, > heterogeneous computing environment, etc. -- can help only for > non-system administration positions. If by "help" you mean "help you get hired", I agree -- unfortunately. Speaking in terms of skills, on the other hand, I have to disagree. For instance, my first year of using Debian as my primary desktop OS made me a far better MS Windows admin than I ever had been before, despite my certifications, education, and experience with MS Windows networks prior to that point. I suppose that learning more OSes can make one a far better admin in the OSes one already knew, in a manner similar to the way learning Haskell, Lisp, or Smalltalk can make one a better C, Java, or Perl programmer. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] Ben Franklin: "As we enjoy great Advantages from the Inventions of others we should be glad of an Opportunity to serve others by any Invention of ours, and this we should do freely and generously. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 12:34:46PM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: > But some of the manpages are out of date, like for the coreutils (I > think mv/cp was one of them?). I like the comment in there about > Stallman liking infopages but Debian-ites having to create a manpage :). > I personally hate infopages, but that's me. It's not just you. I loathe the damned things. That's really the only problem I've ever had with Debian documentation -- for current and complete documentation, once in a while you have to look at the infopage instead of a manpage. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] unix virus: If you're using a unixlike OS, please forward this to 20 others and erase your system partition. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 02:34:29PM -0500, Chris wrote: > > To me, apt-get is certainly cleaner and superior to > portupgrade/portmanager. Perhaps someday either or will be as reliable > as apt-get. > > Just my opinions of course. In my experience, portupgrade is more reliable than apt-get. I have seen a number of packages fail to upgrade cleanly in Debian over the last year -- more often than with portupgrade -- and when there's a failure of the APT system it can be much more difficult to fix the problem than it is with the ports tree. Could you provide some specific details about your experiences with APT and the ports tree that provide a clearer picture of why you have arrived at these conclusions? I'm curious, and would like to know if there are problems ahead of which I should be aware. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] "The measure of a man's real character is what he would do if he knew he would never be found out." - Thomas McCauley ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
in message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, wrote Paul Butler thusly... > > If, however, heart-stopping speed appeals to you, you want > intelligently planned technology with the latest stable > applications, you are operating web servers, or you just plain > want to get expertise in real Unix then there is nothing like > FreeBSD. > > Merely by living with FreeBSD for a year or two on your desktop or > laptop, you will really deepen your understanding of unix-derived > systems in a way which is not possible with Linux. This may be > very helpful if you either have or contemplate a career in IT. I note that Paul mentioned "IT" not a "Unix System Administration". So consider the following as my rant. There seems to be no entity which offers *entry level* Unix System Administration position to those not already living in immediate surrounding area (even if one is willing to relocate (at one's own expense)). And "Junior" positions require near 3 years of Unix or Linux *paid* experience. In my experience, the Unix knowledge & experience gained by using FreeBSD (despite the number of years using it) on a machine connected to Internet -- but not actively taking part in LAN-y things like internal DNS, file- and backup/restore server, heterogeneous computing environment, etc. -- can help only for non-system administration positions. - Parv -- ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007, Chad Perrin wrote: On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 12:17:20PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a bit of a challenge. My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of installing software and keeping it up-to-date: 'pkg_add -r' and 'portupgrade -aP' simply can't hold a candle to 'apt-get install' and 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. What do you find lacking in the FreeBSD approach? I'm a relatively recent transplant from Debian, and my experience is that FreeBSD provides better, more predictable, and more customizable results, without increasing the difficulty or reducing the convenience at all. As far as this goes nothing. I use FreeBSD exclusively on production servers, and workstations. My laptop I dual boot with windows which I only use to duplicate costomer problems and keep up with the latest (and greatest?) changes to the Outlooks. Granted, I haven't really tried the package-based software management options for FreeBSD in any depth -- I'm mostly installing from source at this point -- but thus far I haven't any reason to expect package-based installation to be any less easily managed than source-based installs. Here (I think) there are some things that could be better. The installation can be tricky depending on one's background, but I did not follow the maxum, if you don't like it, make it better. Portupgrade does not work for me because all my desktops are too small, too slow. In a (my) perfect world portmanager would allow the use of packages. For some the fact that flash, java, and openoffice can be difficult to install are issues. I am an advocate for the FreeBSD desktop. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Sat, 14 Apr 2007, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: >>> First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors >>> Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI >>> switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that >>> depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a >>> bit of a challenge. >> >> My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of >> installing software and keeping it up-to-date: 'pkg_add -r' and >> 'portupgrade -aP' simply can't hold a candle to 'apt-get install' and >> 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. >> >> > Because of my background, the things that were/are wrong with packages > and ports led me to learn much more about FreeBSD. I chose to answer > your email not because of any disagreement with what you said, but to > offer up the idea that at least in selected instances there might be > something to learn from doing this. > > In my case this included leaning to think in 'Unix', and reaching an > understanding with (rather than of) regular expressions, sed, and awk. > > My workstation/laptop hardware does not really allow the option of > building things like KDE and OpenOffice, so I upgrade basically by > starting over with packages. I usually can do this in an hour or so. > When I first started, I found the differences between BSDI, FreeBSD, and > Linux confusing. Now mostly its more of an irritant than having to use > my son's mac to watch ESPN videos. To me, this is where Ubuntu (I can't speak for other Linux distros) is the clear winner over FreeBSD on the desktop. Ubuntu is near out-of-the-box when it comes to media (audio/video/etc) of any sort. Sure, there are a few steps to get it all to gel - but once you enter a few lines (or if you prefer point-n-click) - you never have to worry about media working again (trust me, I used to keep a Windows box just to do the things I mentioned). Again - I'm talking about a desktop use. I have used Ubuntu server (both i386 and sparc) and FreeBSD is still my fav. however, Ubuntu (for installing LAMP) is nearly even w/FreeBSD. To me, apt-get is certainly cleaner and superior to portupgrade/portmanager. Perhaps someday either or will be as reliable as apt-get. Just my opinions of course. -- Best regards, Chris If not completely satisfied, return for full refund of purchase price. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Chad Perrin wrote: On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 11:52:18AM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: Also, it's Linux-based so documentation in terms of manpages are most likely non-existent, like with Gentoo Linux. That's by no means universal among Linux distributions. Debian actually provides better manpage coverage than FreeBSD, for instance. But some of the manpages are out of date, like for the coreutils (I think mv/cp was one of them?). I like the comment in there about Stallman liking infopages but Debian-ites having to create a manpage :). I personally hate infopages, but that's me. -Garrett ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Chad Perrin wrote: On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 11:57:44AM -0700, Garrett Cooper wrote: Well, we have some problems sometimes with cyclic dependencies (portinstall / portupgrade and friends), and people aren't really happy when names of categories / packages get changed (like what's happened recently with the revision of some of the port names), because there's a bit more work involved 'fixing' everything back to the same state that there was before. People also complain that there aren't enough offerings in terms of packages, but that's a resources issue from what I understand. As for enough packages . . . if you mean software in general, in the ports tree, I'd find it pretty difficult to complain. There's only one Linux distribution with more software in its archives than in the FreeBSD ports tree (Debian, of course), and it's only about a fifteen percent increase in available software last I checked. Considering FreeBSD offers something more like a 500% increase over Fedora (again, last I checked), I don't have a lot of problems of software availability with FreeBSD. Is there a significant difference in available software between ports and packages? Is that the problem? True. That's the one reason why I had no problem completely leaving Redhat 2 years back :). As for the complaints about packages, it's probably just the compile times and the fact that many users like the fact that they could install and setup a complete system in the approximately same amount of time as a Redhat based system (15mins ~ 1.5 hours, depending on the options and computing resources available -- assuming you have a decent internet connection :)..). In fact, despite the greater number of packages in Debian's archives, I find that in practice I find what I actually want/need more often in FreeBSD's ports tree. That is, of course, highly subjective. Well, yes and that's subjective, like you've said. Overall though, I do like FreeBSD's ports system better than I do debian's apt-get system :). Having to shuffle through all of those menus and pages package listings to install stuff was a pain. One thing I prefer about APT over FreeBSD's ports tree is the greater ease and flexibility of searching for what I need. The apt-cache search command is great. I'm also a little confused by the failure of whereis to return expected results when I'm looking for a specific port. These are things I can work around, however -- unlike some of the things that have blown up in my face when using APT. Most likely because you're still using (t)csh and (t)csh needs to run "rehash" in order to see newly installed ports / applications. There's always (a)sh in the base system, and bash available in ports (shells/bash). I personally prefer bash to tcsh, but that's my deal. -Garrett ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a bit of a challenge. My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of installing software and keeping it up-to-date: 'pkg_add -r' and 'portupgrade -aP' simply can't hold a candle to 'apt-get install' and 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. Because of my background, the things that were/are wrong with packages and ports led me to learn much more about FreeBSD. I chose to answer your email not because of any disagreement with what you said, but to offer up the idea that at least in selected instances there might be something to learn from doing this. In my case this included leaning to think in 'Unix', and reaching an understanding with (rather than of) regular expressions, sed, and awk. My workstation/laptop hardware does not really allow the option of building things like KDE and OpenOffice, so I upgrade basically by starting over with packages. I usually can do this in an hour or so. When I first started, I found the differences between BSDI, FreeBSD, and Linux confusing. Now mostly its more of an irritant than having to use my son's mac to watch ESPN videos.___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Garrett Cooper wrote: > Paul Butler wrote: >> Message: 17 >> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:21:43 -0500 >> From: "Claude Menski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: I like Ubuntu >> To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Message-ID: >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? >> >> I find Ubuntu to be a great "distro" if your goal is to get a great >> open-source desktop system up and running quickly, that is easy to >> update (albeit not with the latest available applications) and >> relatively bug-free. If you yourself are not able to spend hands-on >> time maintaining the system (i.e. for aging parents, in-laws, non-techie >> friends) it is a good choice. Their use of Debian's apt technology is >> brilliant. Their user/developer community is wonderful. >> >> If, however, heart-stopping speed appeals to you, you want intelligently >> planned technology with the latest stable applications, you are >> operating web servers, or you just plain want to get expertise in real >> Unix then there is nothing like FreeBSD. >> >> Merely by living with FreeBSD for a year or two on your desktop or >> laptop, you will really deepen your understanding of unix-derived >> systems in a way which is not possible with Linux. This may be very >> helpful if you either have or contemplate a career in IT. >> >> Paul Butler >> > My personal take on Ubuntu is that it was a wise decision by some to > market the Linux distro to disenchanted Windows users -- by having KDE > be the default DE it makes people feel more at home than having to > choose something like, say, Enlightenment, Fluxbox, FVWM2, or good old > TWM. The problem is that it's aimed primarily at people trying to test > out Linux and transition from Windows, and in many cases tends to choose > the "best" option for you, in terms of partitioning your disk, running > certain apps, etc from what I've heard and read from others, which is > bad for power users. > > Also, it's Linux-based so documentation in terms of manpages are most > likely non-existent, like with Gentoo Linux. > > Just as a followup to the subject line: I like FreeBSD because of its > solid nature and good system architecture. > > Cheers, > -Garrett Actually - Ubuntu's default isn't KDE, it's Gnome. Kubuntu is what you want if you prefer the K environment - however, that's not to say that if you install Ubuntu, you can't install KDE (or XFCE4 - that happens to be Xubuntu). -- Best regards, Chris BOFH excuse #158: Defunct processes ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Chad Perrin wrote: On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 12:17:20PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a bit of a challenge. My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of installing software and keeping it up-to-date: 'pkg_add -r' and 'portupgrade -aP' simply can't hold a candle to 'apt-get install' and 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. What do you find lacking in the FreeBSD approach? I'm a relatively recent transplant from Debian, and my experience is that FreeBSD provides better, more predictable, and more customizable results, without increasing the difficulty or reducing the convenience at all. Granted, I haven't really tried the package-based software management options for FreeBSD in any depth -- I'm mostly installing from source at this point -- but thus far I haven't any reason to expect package-based installation to be any less easily managed than source-based installs. Well, we have some problems sometimes with cyclic dependencies (portinstall / portupgrade and friends), and people aren't really happy when names of categories / packages get changed (like what's happened recently with the revision of some of the port names), because there's a bit more work involved 'fixing' everything back to the same state that there was before. People also complain that there aren't enough offerings in terms of packages, but that's a resources issue from what I understand. Overall though, I do like FreeBSD's ports system better than I do debian's apt-get system :). Having to shuffle through all of those menus and pages package listings to install stuff was a pain. -Garrett ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Paul Butler wrote: Message: 17 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:21:43 -0500 From: "Claude Menski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: I like Ubuntu To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? I find Ubuntu to be a great "distro" if your goal is to get a great open-source desktop system up and running quickly, that is easy to update (albeit not with the latest available applications) and relatively bug-free. If you yourself are not able to spend hands-on time maintaining the system (i.e. for aging parents, in-laws, non-techie friends) it is a good choice. Their use of Debian's apt technology is brilliant. Their user/developer community is wonderful. If, however, heart-stopping speed appeals to you, you want intelligently planned technology with the latest stable applications, you are operating web servers, or you just plain want to get expertise in real Unix then there is nothing like FreeBSD. Merely by living with FreeBSD for a year or two on your desktop or laptop, you will really deepen your understanding of unix-derived systems in a way which is not possible with Linux. This may be very helpful if you either have or contemplate a career in IT. Paul Butler My personal take on Ubuntu is that it was a wise decision by some to market the Linux distro to disenchanted Windows users -- by having KDE be the default DE it makes people feel more at home than having to choose something like, say, Enlightenment, Fluxbox, FVWM2, or good old TWM. The problem is that it's aimed primarily at people trying to test out Linux and transition from Windows, and in many cases tends to choose the "best" option for you, in terms of partitioning your disk, running certain apps, etc from what I've heard and read from others, which is bad for power users. Also, it's Linux-based so documentation in terms of manpages are most likely non-existent, like with Gentoo Linux. Just as a followup to the subject line: I like FreeBSD because of its solid nature and good system architecture. Cheers, -Garrett ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Sat, Apr 14, 2007 at 12:17:20PM +0200, Dag-Erling Sm?rgrav wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors > > Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI > > switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that > > depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a > > bit of a challenge. > > My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of > installing software and keeping it up-to-date: 'pkg_add -r' and > 'portupgrade -aP' simply can't hold a candle to 'apt-get install' and > 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. What do you find lacking in the FreeBSD approach? I'm a relatively recent transplant from Debian, and my experience is that FreeBSD provides better, more predictable, and more customizable results, without increasing the difficulty or reducing the convenience at all. Granted, I haven't really tried the package-based software management options for FreeBSD in any depth -- I'm mostly installing from source at this point -- but thus far I haven't any reason to expect package-based installation to be any less easily managed than source-based installs. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] Amazon.com interview candidate: "When C++ is your hammer, everything starts to look like your thumb." ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a bit of a challenge. My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of installing software and keeping it up-to-date: 'pkg_add -r' and 'portupgrade -aP' simply can't hold a candle to 'apt-get install' and 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. DES My aim is to improve that as part of my SoC project that I'm working on. -Garrett ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Message: 17 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2007 12:21:43 -0500 From: "Claude Menski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: I like Ubuntu To: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? I find Ubuntu to be a great "distro" if your goal is to get a great open-source desktop system up and running quickly, that is easy to update (albeit not with the latest available applications) and relatively bug-free. If you yourself are not able to spend hands-on time maintaining the system (i.e. for aging parents, in-laws, non-techie friends) it is a good choice. Their use of Debian's apt technology is brilliant. Their user/developer community is wonderful. If, however, heart-stopping speed appeals to you, you want intelligently planned technology with the latest stable applications, you are operating web servers, or you just plain want to get expertise in real Unix then there is nothing like FreeBSD. Merely by living with FreeBSD for a year or two on your desktop or laptop, you will really deepen your understanding of unix-derived systems in a way which is not possible with Linux. This may be very helpful if you either have or contemplate a career in IT. Paul Butler ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On 4/13/07, Claude Menski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? More useful documentation (the Handbook is great) and easier to debug than any Linux distribution I've ever tried (including Mandrake, Ubuntu, Kubuntu, SUSE 6.3, SLED, Debian, SLC, and MEPIS). There's also a good chance an answer, tutorial, or howto from 1999 is still applicable, unlike for Linux. -- Victor Engmark Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur - What is said in Latin, sounds profound ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors > Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI > switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that > depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a > bit of a challenge. My issues with FreeBSD as a desktop mostly come from the difficulty of installing software and keeping it up-to-date: 'pkg_add -r' and 'portupgrade -aP' simply can't hold a candle to 'apt-get install' and 'apt-get dist-upgrade'. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Apr 13, 2007, at 5:23 PM, Jeff wrote: On Apr 13, 2007, at 4:48 PM, David J Brooks wrote: On Friday 13 April 2007 12:21:43 pm Claude Menski wrote: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? It's easier to spell. Not to mention pronounce. I was thinking the same exact thing. On a second thought as much of flame bait as this question could have been, I must say I am quite proud of our community's response. Good work. Cheers, Mikel King CITO, Tech Alliance, INC Senior Editor, Daemon News 39 West Fourteenth Street Second Floor New York, NY 10011 http://www.techally.com http://www.daemonnews.org t: 212.727.2100x132 +--+ How do you spell cooperation? Pessimists use each other, but optimists help each other. Collaboration feeds your spirit, while competition only stokes your ego. You'll find the best way to get along. +--+ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (Darwin) iD4DBQFGIDcA/MdWADRNwzQRAgRRAJ42HPB4obEC3Uv28CXmXe1tVgo6ggCYxOP+ H0/Adh44i3hjG7PxgPuqFQ== =Zbzg -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Fri, 13 Apr 2007, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: "Claude Menski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? I like Ubuntu too. If you want a desktop OS that Just Works and doesn't require a lot of time to configure and keep up-to-date, it's a good choice. On the server side, however, I find that it is FreeBSD rather than Linux which Just Works and lets you do excatly what you want without any fuss. I find that once you get into the little details, Linux is an appalling mess of disparate components thrown together with no apparent plan or purpose. It gets even worse when you start looking into the kernel source... No abstraction, no modularization, and very little consistency. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] First my experience with [Free]BSD as a server completely mirrors Dag-Erling's observation, it [mostly] just works. I started with BSDI switching to FreeBSD around 3.5. I think it is also true that depending on your hardware a FreeBSD workstation or laptop can be a bit of a challenge. For me, coming from mainframe-land, I learned more about FreeBSD and Unix from having to solve these problems and/or work around old hardware than I ever would have just administering my server farm. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 09:43:27PM +0200, Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > "Claude Menski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? > > I like Ubuntu too. If you want a desktop OS that Just Works and > doesn't require a lot of time to configure and keep up-to-date, it's a > good choice. It is definitely nice if you have modern hardware. It is quite a heavyweight though, by virtue of the heavy desktop environment and the a ton of daemons that is starts. On a 750 MHz PIII with 128 MB RAM and a trident 8900 video chip, a default ubuntu install was unusable IMHO. You'd probably need to slim it down quite a bit for older hardware. And that's no job for a newbie. I gave up and installed 6.2-RELEASE with fvwm2 instead, which runs a lot smoother. Roland -- R.F.Smith http://www.xs4all.nl/~rsmith/ [plain text _non-HTML_ PGP/GnuPG encrypted/signed email much appreciated] pgp: 1A2B 477F 9970 BA3C 2914 B7CE 1277 EFB0 C321 A725 (KeyID: C321A725) pgptoOPd1Vzj5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Apr 13, 2007, at 4:48 PM, David J Brooks wrote: On Friday 13 April 2007 12:21:43 pm Claude Menski wrote: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? It's easier to spell. Not to mention pronounce. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Friday 13 April 2007 12:21:43 pm Claude Menski wrote: > Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? It's easier to spell. -- In 1869 the waffle iron was invented for people who had wrinkled waffles. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
And we like BSD... ;) I think you should test it for some weeks, before asking such questions. If you like ubuntu, use it. It's free software. It runs. So why not. But some people think, that BSD runs better when Linux... Test it on your own. ;) Dmitri. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Apr 13, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Claude Menski wrote: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? Because the FreeBSD mailing list is resilient to things that might otherwise start a flame war. But in case your question was serious, the answer is, as others have said, "It depends on what you want to use it for". What do you want to use it for? -j -- Jeffrey Goldberghttp://www.goldmark.org/jeff/ ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
"Claude Menski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? I like Ubuntu too. If you want a desktop OS that Just Works and doesn't require a lot of time to configure and keep up-to-date, it's a good choice. On the server side, however, I find that it is FreeBSD rather than Linux which Just Works and lets you do excatly what you want without any fuss. I find that once you get into the little details, Linux is an appalling mess of disparate components thrown together with no apparent plan or purpose. It gets even worse when you start looking into the kernel source... No abstraction, no modularization, and very little consistency. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Claude Menski wrote: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? ___ Ubuntu has an obviously intoxicated penguin for a mascot, whereas FreeBSD has a Dever little Clevil... oops, I mean a Clever little Devil, for a mascot. Daemon is a gas, whereas the Penguin is merely gassed. There you go! -- -wittig http://www.robertwittig.com/ . ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
Claude Menski wrote: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? Because you can still use it if the "U" key is borked? :-D If this is a serious question, and I suppose it could be, it would be better to move this to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]". You have heard of "religious wars" and "flame wars", I suppose? This is fodder for such, but it's not as likely to happen here as, maybe, some Linux lists (which might be one possible answer to your question, but I don't know the Ubuntu community specifically, and as such don't want to malign them). I do think, however, that such material is OT for "questions@", although I note that my recollection of the list charter doesn't seem to be current, either. Several of the usual answers to "Linux and FreeBSD" are in the article that I just now am seeing referred to by Chuck Swiger. Finally, if you're simply trolling, please, please, begone wit ye and try someplace else? Kevin Kinsey -- Time and tide wait for no man. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On 2007/04/13 9:21, Claude Menski seems to have typed: > Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? Why are you looking for something else? Maybe Ubuntu will be better for your purposes, maybe it won't. I suggest starting your research by reading this: http://www.lemis.com/bsdpaper.html ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: I like Ubuntu
On Apr 13, 2007, at 10:21 AM, Claude Menski wrote: Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? It may or may not be-- people have different requirements and different opinions and preferences. http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php ...might give you some more insight. Most people using FreeBSD would recommend that you choose the best platform for your needs, and if you want to run a flavor of Linux, by all means, have fun. -- -Chuck ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
I like Ubuntu
Why is freebsd better then ubuntu? ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
