Re: OT: The future of USENET?
El día Monday, April 01, 2013 a las 08:13:12AM +0200, Matthias Apitz escribió: > > > I'm using since some years http://www.aioe.org/ which has no binary > > > groups (i.e. no porn or warez) and a cache of 25 days. Just works. > > > > The remaining users of de.* often say they filter postings injected > > over this server because it has no rules against forging > > personalities. > > Hi, > > Could you please explain a bit more what the issue is, or point me to a > thread in some group? Thanks (Thanks for the explanation in German off-list). I do not participate in newsgroups or discussions where someone would have interests in fake and use my identity. Thanks matthias -- Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: www.asciiribbon.org E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
El día Monday, April 01, 2013 a las 03:13:07AM +0200, Sabine Baer escribió: > On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:20:05PM +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote: > > [...] > > > I'm using since some years http://www.aioe.org/ which has no binary > > groups (i.e. no porn or warez) and a cache of 25 days. Just works. > > The remaining users of de.* often say they filter postings injected > over this server because it has no rules against forging > personalities. Hi, Could you please explain a bit more what the issue is, or point me to a thread in some group? Thanks matthias -- Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: www.asciiribbon.org E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 02:12:06PM -0400, grarpamp wrote: [...] > Back then you had to have brains to be on the net, now everyone is > web 2.0, and they're satisfied with ridiculous web forums. Any > brains today are all but forced to use them because the population > is so slim anywhere else. Usenet has suffered its generational > penalty. > > Usenet is still viable long term as a free/donation service, as is > irc, if operators do not carry the binary groups. Its new hope lies > with the opensource, hackerspace, anonymous, and related communities > of all sorts. No. I have contacts to the german Pirate Party. They have an own Newsserver where Mails an forum entries are mirrored. (https://github.com/Shirk/SynFU/blob/master/doc/_static/intro.rst http://wiki.piratenpartei.de/Syncom) They mostly communicate - if not using www-2.0 shit - over Mailing Lists. They have different mailreader and no netiquette, they write as their program will do, html of course and attachments of different kind. I don't know how many use the news server but for sure they are very few. > As a giant distributed mailing list, it's an awesome service that > these communities really should look at more closely. They don't. I thought they should see usenet as best medium for a free, worldwide, non censored and not destroyable communication. But they are Nerds, they use facebook, twitter, google+, write to mailing lists, mostly using "webmail services" (I think so), own forums and write blogs. Oh, and etherpads and videos on youtube. It's all diversified, atomized, very difficult to find. But - they are mobile people and when I began 'advertizing' usenet or nntp, they asked if they can reach it with ervery computer from everywhere. Well, i couldn;t answer that, it is a real negativum of today's usenet. I didn't give up and created a newsgroup free.de.thalassa, but without success. It's on nntp.aioe.org and news.eternal-september.org and since a few days on news.individual.net (without the older postings). No, those civil rights activists are unable to understand the benefits of usenet or nntp in general. They prefere the services of private companies which ideed are more colourful and have more gimmicks. > Its future is up to you... will you run a server and list it as > a communication method (even primary) for your project, or not? > Will you donate a server to the public, or not? I tried to install (very easy under FreeBSD) an configure (not easy at all) an INN but I gave up. No, that's not trivial, I am using news.individual.net, a very fine server (10,- EUR a year) an have accounts at nntp.aioe.org and news.eternal-september.org. But a server doesn't generate traffic if there's a lack of people using it. Sorry for my bad English, Sabine, who didn't find yet something better than NNTP -- Der Schoepfer schoepft die Zeit aus dem unendlichen Quell des Nichts. Mensch befoerdert seine Zeit wieder dorthin. Klar, gaaanz einfach. Sozusagen ein Kreislauf der Zeit durchs Nichts. (horst-d.winzler in dst) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:20:05PM +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote: [...] > I'm using since some years http://www.aioe.org/ which has no binary > groups (i.e. no porn or warez) and a cache of 25 days. Just works. The remaining users of de.* often say they filter postings injected over this server because it has no rules against forging personalities. Sabine -- Der Schoepfer schoepft die Zeit aus dem unendlichen Quell des Nichts. Mensch befoerdert seine Zeit wieder dorthin. Klar, gaaanz einfach. Sozusagen ein Kreislauf der Zeit durchs Nichts. (horst-d.winzler in dst) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:59 PM, Steve O'Hara-Smith wrote: > There are several free public USENET text servers (no binary > groups), granted it's nothing like the days when every ISP ran one but > there are still several about (eternal-september.com is one of the > biggest). There are also a few low cost paid servers (individual.netstands > out here). There is also a thriving business in paid for USENET binary > service. > Even back in the day I used to use public servers, because the ISP-run ones generally had poor uptime and a poor selection of groups. These days I tend not to read USENET groups because of the high amount of spam traffic, and the fact that the remaining posters tend to be interested mostly in continuing their own long-running flame wars while chasing off newbies. Maybe I just value my time more highly these days. ;) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:12:06 -0400 grarpamp wrote: > Usenet was great. 'Was' because it really isn't there anymore. > Servers used to be widespread, you could use your ISP, your school, > your work, and failing that plenty of free ones even if for the > asking, even some public/open ones. Now there are very few, if any, > free servers and likely none are public/open for obvious reason There are several free public USENET text servers (no binary groups), granted it's nothing like the days when every ISP ran one but there are still several about (eternal-september.com is one of the biggest). There are also a few low cost paid servers (individual.net stands out here). There is also a thriving business in paid for USENET binary service. > Post 2000 Web 2.0 and those eyeballs destroyed usenet. They are the > idiot mass and they demanded to only see the world through their > browser window. And when usenet died off, so did the long running > text only archive servers, taking decades of human knowledge with > them. Vanished. Just the same as web forums do when they vanish. > Google's 'group' archive doesn't count, they're a corporation, they > wrapped it in web 2.0, they don't care, it will die. USENET is not dead, and the Google archive is all that remains of the only large archive that ever existed deja-news. Granted it is a sad and almost useless remnant. > The bandwidth cost, piracy and porn was just as damning as web 2.0. > The former caused the formal ISP/school/work support to die. > The latter stole the eyeballs. Bandwidth piracy and porn problems are all in the binary groups which is why the remaining free USENET services are text only. What has stolen eyeballs from a lot of groups is the trolls and troll bots where some idiot has decided to make a group unusable. > Back then you had to have brains to be on the net, now everyone is > web 2.0, and they're satisfied with ridiculous web forums. Any > brains today are all but forced to use them because the population > is so slim anywhere else. Usenet has suffered its generational > penalty. Actually the web forums are no help in that respect because they've caused what was once a concentrated audience to fragment over a hundred web forums. -- Steve O'Hara-Smith ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 9:37 PM, Joshua Isom wrote: > On 3/27/2013 3:25 PM, Walter Hurry wrote: > >> On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:12:06 -0400, grarpamp wrote: >> >> Now there are very few, if any, free servers >>> >> >> There are still free news servers available. My ISP bundles usenet, >> nevertheless I prefer the free one as it's faster and more reliable. >> >> > The last ISP I knew had usenet complained about the bandwidth and storage > required. If they carried alt.binaries.*, then yes: it was a legitimate concern. To carry those groups requires enormous bandwidth, and bandwidth costs money, a lot of money. Storage isn't really an issue though.., even with smallish retention periods of 60 days or so. That's what commercial Usenet providers a la Giganews are for: they have some very big pipes and the necessary storage infrastructure for many-years retention, and can pay for all this through their subscribers fees. I see no problems that regular ISPs dropped Usenet as part of their standard offering, as long as alternatives such as those Usenet providers are available for a couple of bucks per month to those who need them. > They had a dedicated satellite instead of using their backbone, and only > cached a couple days. All the porn and warez has the side affect of wiping > out the cost benefit. > -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 15:37:43 -0500, Joshua Isom wrote: > On 3/27/2013 3:25 PM, Walter Hurry wrote: >> On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:12:06 -0400, grarpamp wrote: >> >>> Now there are very few, if any, free servers >> >> There are still free news servers available. My ISP bundles usenet, >> nevertheless I prefer the free one as it's faster and more reliable. >> >> > The last ISP I knew had usenet complained about the bandwidth and > storage required. They had a dedicated satellite instead of using their > backbone, and only cached a couple days. All the porn and warez has the > side affect of wiping out the cost benefit. I have no idea whether my usenet provider includes porn or warez groups, since I am interested in neither, so have not checked. All I know is that I use their service because it is free, reliable and fast. Actually, I read this list via the usenet group gmane.os.freebsd.questions, since I find that convenient. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
El día Wednesday, March 27, 2013 a las 03:37:43PM -0500, Joshua Isom escribió: > The last ISP I knew had usenet complained about the bandwidth and > storage required. They had a dedicated satellite instead of using their > backbone, and only cached a couple days. All the porn and warez has the > side affect of wiping out the cost benefit. I'm using since some years http://www.aioe.org/ which has no binary groups (i.e. no porn or warez) and a cache of 25 days. Just works. matthias -- Sent from my FreeBSD netbook Matthias Apitz | - No system with backdoors like Apple/Android E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | - Never being an iSlave WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | - No proprietary attachments, no HTML/RTF in E-mail phone: +49-170-4527211 | - Respect for open standards ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On 3/27/2013 3:25 PM, Walter Hurry wrote: On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:12:06 -0400, grarpamp wrote: Now there are very few, if any, free servers There are still free news servers available. My ISP bundles usenet, nevertheless I prefer the free one as it's faster and more reliable. The last ISP I knew had usenet complained about the bandwidth and storage required. They had a dedicated satellite instead of using their backbone, and only cached a couple days. All the porn and warez has the side affect of wiping out the cost benefit. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 14:12:06 -0400, grarpamp wrote: > Now there are very few, if any, free servers There are still free news servers available. My ISP bundles usenet, nevertheless I prefer the free one as it's faster and more reliable. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
OT: The future of USENET?
Usenet was great. 'Was' because it really isn't there anymore. Servers used to be widespread, you could use your ISP, your school, your work, and failing that plenty of free ones even if for the asking, even some public/open ones. Now there are very few, if any, free servers and likely none are public/open for obvious reasons. Post 2000 Web 2.0 and those eyeballs destroyed usenet. They are the idiot mass and they demanded to only see the world through their browser window. And when usenet died off, so did the long running text only archive servers, taking decades of human knowledge with them. Vanished. Just the same as web forums do when they vanish. Google's 'group' archive doesn't count, they're a corporation, they wrapped it in web 2.0, they don't care, it will die. The bandwidth cost, piracy and porn was just as damning as web 2.0. The former caused the formal ISP/school/work support to die. The latter stole the eyeballs. Back then you had to have brains to be on the net, now everyone is web 2.0, and they're satisfied with ridiculous web forums. Any brains today are all but forced to use them because the population is so slim anywhere else. Usenet has suffered its generational penalty. Usenet is still viable long term as a free/donation service, as is irc, if operators do not carry the binary groups. Its new hope lies with the opensource, hackerspace, anonymous, and related communities of all sorts. As a giant distributed mailing list, it's an awesome service that these communities really should look at more closely. Its future is up to you... will you run a server and list it as a communication method (even primary) for your project, or not? Will you donate a server to the public, or not? FreeBSD related... it would be really nice if someone would shim the FreeBSD forum to cause every post to be copied out to a set of FreeBSD mailing lists. So the efficient/interested among us could at least read, search and archive them without being forced to waste time with the web interface. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On 3/27/2013 6:55, Quartz wrote: >> Younger generations > > In my experience, few people under the age of 30 have used usenet, and > no one under the age of 20 has even heard of it. > 19 year old usenet subscriber reporting in! I subscribe to ASR and c.p.t.ntp which are the only decent newsgroups that I have found, I've tried a few others but they seem to be dead and filled with spam. Anyone got any recommendations for newsgroups to subscribe to? :) -- staticsafe O< ascii ribbon campaign - stop html mail - www.asciiribbon.org Please don't top post - http://goo.gl/YrmAb Don't CC me! I'm subscribed to whatever list I just posted on. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Matthias Apitz wrote: > > Hello, > > This is a bit OT, but maybe some of you FreeBSD folks are as well > affected like me and/or have any answer or comments... > > In the past I've used a lot the so called newsgroups, even running my own > inn > news server for our company and nn as the newsreader. I liked to post > there technical (and other) questions and answers, or I've google'ed for > solutions. > > Nowadays there is a big silence :-( > Where have all the people gone? Is USENET coming to its end? > Well, the public Usenet forums are dwindling, but still there, and some of them are still quite active. Usenet is also still doing well in closed communities which can afford to run a newsserver (e.g. some Universities). I wouldn't write off Usenet yet; neither as a technology nor as a real network. -cpghost. > matthias > -- > Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: > www.asciiribbon.org > E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail > WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments > phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards > ___ > freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 6:55 AM, Quartz wrote: >> Younger generations > > > In my experience, few people under the age of 30 have used usenet, and no > one under the age of 20 has even heard of it. > It's interesting to see all the re-inventions that occur all the time. It's basically the same stuff, just re-invented for a wider audience, lowering the barrier of entry in some cases and in others just plain stupidity and ignorance. Many times these re-inventions happen without even prior knowledge of what exists and other times are "simplified" forks, or robbed ideas that wind up being the same or worse than their original counterparts. Examples are in all areas of technology, and in society in general. For example, chat and instant messaging have always been avail for IRC users since the late eighties but have been re-invented in the late nineties with a bunch of incompatible and overlapping IM protocols. Blogs and forums are also re-inventions of older and in many cases more robust and versatile technologies like USENET and mailing lists. In many cases what I find that is a shame is that these re-inventions don't build on top of mature technologies but rather start out as simple things and then evolve to overly complex things without any elegance and that (as stated above) wind up being even more complex and generally much less elegant than their older counterparts. A good example is Windows and perhaps most of MS technology in general, with a few counted exceptions. In some cases the prior art in known quite well, take for example PHP which was originally written in Perl, then forked to a new language for whatever reasons, and the evolves to be as complex or worse than Perl itself, and after all these years it's still not a full-fledged and decent programming language. In some cases, the evolutionary line is actually positive, take for example Ruby. Yet in this case, Perl has continued to evolve quite well, as Larry Wall well put it: "The camel has evolved to be relatively self-sufficient. (On the other hand, the camel has not evolved to smell good. Neither has Perl.)". One could go on forever with thousands of example, but it's all about evolution and you can only evaluate these things with time. Who knows, maybe USENET, IRC. etc. will continue to evolve and survive in niches, or someday make a great comeback when other options have run their course and have gone extinct. Best, -- Alejandro ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
Younger generations In my experience, few people under the age of 30 have used usenet, and no one under the age of 20 has even heard of it. __ it has a certain smooth-brained appeal ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
On Wed, 27 Mar 2013 10:49:25 +0100, Matthias Apitz wrote: > Where have all the people gone? They're using wibbly wobbly web wonder services, unless they've been placed in a retirement castle. :-) > Is USENET coming to its end? I think it's just changing audiences. A common means of USENET today seems to be binary groups for sharing warez. There are few newsgroups considered "old-fashioned", "greybeard" and "elitist" grounds. The common means of communication probably has moved to other services, generic ones such as mailing lists, and more "service- oriented" ones like the many web-based platforms. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: OT: The future of USENET?
Is USENET coming to its end? Yes, for better or worse. It's been a slow downward spiral since the late 90's. I can't speak for other countries, but in the US the majority of ISPs started dropping access as a cost cutting measure since your average layman didn't really understand or use it. Younger generations in turn never knew it existed and ended up reinventing most of the functionality with web forums. Not helping matters is that, due to a couple isolated cases, the news media ignorantly view usenet as a haven for child porn and pirate movies, so there's increasing clamor to shut it down. There were a few 3rd party companies here and there that offered dedicated access, but most of them have closed up shop by this point due to social/political pressure. __ it has a certain smooth-brained appeal ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
OT: The future of USENET?
Hello, This is a bit OT, but maybe some of you FreeBSD folks are as well affected like me and/or have any answer or comments... In the past I've used a lot the so called newsgroups, even running my own inn news server for our company and nn as the newsreader. I liked to post there technical (and other) questions and answers, or I've google'ed for solutions. Nowadays there is a big silence :-( Where have all the people gone? Is USENET coming to its end? matthias -- Matthias Apitz | /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign: www.asciiribbon.org E-mail: g...@unixarea.de | \ / - No HTML/RTF in E-mail WWW: http://www.unixarea.de/ | X - No proprietary attachments phone: +49-170-4527211 | / \ - Respect for open standards ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
