RE: One Laptop Per Child
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jonathan McKeown Sent: Monday, November 19, 2007 12:07 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: One Laptop Per Child [Ted Mittelstaedt's words, heavily edited for brevity. Ted, please shout if I haven't caught the sense of what you're saying] Well, I know it's been a week since this came up but I'll toss in my $0.02 here. I've been against this project since I heard about it. Fortunately, it appears to be failing. IMHO what these kids need are connections to the Internet and the knowledge store on the Internet, not a laptop. What a laptop that isn't networked to the Internet is going to do to help them I cannot guess. The idea of this project seems to have been to just dump a lot of laptops into these kids hands and trust that the network fairies will magically fly out and connect all of them to something they can use. The other problem of course is that laptops are more fragile than a desktop that is fixed, and very subject to theft, much more than a desktop. I suppose they figure ... the kid will be able to come up with the $10-$20 monthly equivalent to keep the internet connection to the thing going? Assuming they even have a phone at all? As I understand it, the OLPC project has produced an extremely robust laptop which can be human-powered. A group of these laptops will automatically form a wireless mesh network and make use, collectively, of any Internet connectivity that's available to any one of them. In sub-Saharan Africa, that may well be through cellular data. (Satellite is available too, but a lot more expensive). Look at http://www.digitaldividend.org/case/case_vodacom.htm to see a social project by a cellular provider in South Africa which is putting telephone access within reach (both geographically and financially) of traditional rural communities. Note the statistic that Vodacom's cellular network covers 93% of South Africa's population. Note also that this is being done, not as a free handout, but by creating a (slightly subsidised) business opportunity for local people, which is being seized with both hands. People don't need to be handed everything on a plate. Now consider what a community can do when it can pool the cost of Internet connectivity - or what a force multiplier this is for government, non-governmental or even business intervention: this potentially reduces the problem of providing decent bandwidth to every farm and hut in rural Africa (or any other developing area) to a much simpler matter of wiring a few central points and letting the mesh networks take over the distribution. Sigh. Well, let me preface this by saying I work at an ISP. And we still have a number of dialup customers, clinging along despite most of our customers who have long ago gone on to our DSL network. Some of our service area, in fact, is in between Portland OR and Astoria OR and Seaside OR. You can call that area up on a map. Well, let me tell you that voiceline service is available to ANY subscriber in that geographical area. But, espically along the coast, NOTHING faster than a 28.8k modem is available in as little as 3 miles away from towns like Seaside. Many of those subscribers are deep in forested areas and satellite isn't even available either since they have no clear view of transponders in the sky. And this is right in the United States. There is no cellular because there aren't any cell towers, either. These folks are really struggling, we are regularly coaching people into moving off use of client-server e-mail applications such as Outlook and onto web-based applications simply because the e-mail messages they are getting today are getting too large to be downloaded in a reasonable period of time. And that's just e-mail!! To put it simply, the network your describing isn't viable for accessing the web - at least, not in the way you and I and the majority of the world is rapidly becoming used to accessing it. This mini-cellular network your describing doesen't have the bandwidth to do it. And if you did plunk down a satellite connection that had the bandwith, it would be usable for bulk data transmission only, not interactive, due to the high latency. In a few years it's going to be standard for most websites to require a 1.5Mbt connection just to browse at a reasonable speed. And few sites are putting in alternative text sites. This is a serious concern for the disabled community who is finding an increasing number of sites unusable by their special access software. In fact, one of the hottest arguments today in web design is whether the ADA can be applied to major websites - and the lawyers are saying it can be. Some sites have already been threatened and one or two sued to be brought into compliance. It would have been better to try creating a project that would produce a turnkey
Re: One Laptop Per Child
[Ted Mittelstaedt's words, heavily edited for brevity. Ted, please shout if I haven't caught the sense of what you're saying] Well, I know it's been a week since this came up but I'll toss in my $0.02 here. I've been against this project since I heard about it. Fortunately, it appears to be failing. IMHO what these kids need are connections to the Internet and the knowledge store on the Internet, not a laptop. What a laptop that isn't networked to the Internet is going to do to help them I cannot guess. The idea of this project seems to have been to just dump a lot of laptops into these kids hands and trust that the network fairies will magically fly out and connect all of them to something they can use. The other problem of course is that laptops are more fragile than a desktop that is fixed, and very subject to theft, much more than a desktop. I suppose they figure ... the kid will be able to come up with the $10-$20 monthly equivalent to keep the internet connection to the thing going? Assuming they even have a phone at all? As I understand it, the OLPC project has produced an extremely robust laptop which can be human-powered. A group of these laptops will automatically form a wireless mesh network and make use, collectively, of any Internet connectivity that's available to any one of them. In sub-Saharan Africa, that may well be through cellular data. (Satellite is available too, but a lot more expensive). Look at http://www.digitaldividend.org/case/case_vodacom.htm to see a social project by a cellular provider in South Africa which is putting telephone access within reach (both geographically and financially) of traditional rural communities. Note the statistic that Vodacom's cellular network covers 93% of South Africa's population. Note also that this is being done, not as a free handout, but by creating a (slightly subsidised) business opportunity for local people, which is being seized with both hands. People don't need to be handed everything on a plate. Now consider what a community can do when it can pool the cost of Internet connectivity - or what a force multiplier this is for government, non-governmental or even business intervention: this potentially reduces the problem of providing decent bandwidth to every farm and hut in rural Africa (or any other developing area) to a much simpler matter of wiring a few central points and letting the mesh networks take over the distribution. It would have been better to try creating a project that would produce a turnkey Internet network deployment that would be able to be dropped into any school anywhere, even if such a school consisted of a hut in the middle of a desert with a hole out back as the bathroom, no electricity, no running water, no telephone lines within 100 miles. As far as I can see, the only bit of this equation OLPC isn't achieving is providing the Internet connectivity - and to be honest, I think that bit has to depend on local circumstances anyway. I think it deserves to succeed. Jonathan (a sysadmin in urban South Africa) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
Gee, I thought that this had gone away. PLEASE send this off to FreeBSD-chat, it has no business on FreeBSD-questions whatever. Jonathan McKeown wrote: [Ted Mittelstaedt's words, heavily edited for brevity. Ted, please shout if I haven't caught the sense of what you're saying] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: One Laptop Per Child
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Beech Rintoul Sent: Monday, November 12, 2007 12:40 AM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: Olivier Nicole; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: One Laptop Per Child On Sunday 11 November 2007, Olivier Nicole said: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... Olivier From what I've been reading they are addressing this issue. One way was providing solar power recharging stations. The other was hooking up carousel type playground equipment to a small generator to recharge the laptops. The third was good old WWII vintage hand crank power. I also read that these laptops are optimized for low power usage. I live in Alaska and they have been using the internet for education in rural villiages for many years with much success. I personally think this is a great idea. Too bad they won't all be running FreeBSD :-) Well, I know it's been a week since this came up but I'll toss in my $0.02 here. I've been against this project since I heard about it. Fortunately, it appears to be failing. IMHO what these kids need are connections to the Internet and the knowledge store on the Internet, not a laptop. Their real needs would best be served with the equivalent of a winterm running a web browser, and the associated infrastructure to connect that to the Internet. What a laptop that isn't networked to the Internet is going to do to help them I cannot guess. I suspect most that are not connected to an Internet connection will end up being used for games, that's about all they will be good for. The idea that they would be used for word processing or spreadsheets is rediculous. You need a printer and paper and ink for that, ie: a lot of consumables, which these kids parents cannot afford. The idea of this project seems to have been to just dump a lot of laptops into these kids hands and trust that the network fairies will magically fly out and connect all of them to something they can use. The other problem of course is that laptops are more fragile than a desktop that is fixed, and very subject to theft, much more than a desktop. No thought seems to have gone into funding the ongoing support structure necessary to keep a deployment of such magnitude as they want in running order - in all the articles I've read on these things, no mention of warranty has ever been made. I suppose they figure once the kid gets the laptop and the government program that gives him the laptop ends, that the kid will be able to come up with the $10-$20 monthly equivalent to keep the internet connection to the thing going? Assuming they even have a phone at all? It would have been better to try creating a project that would produce a turnkey Internet network deployment that would be able to be dropped into any school anywhere, even if such a school consisted of a hut in the middle of a desert with a hole out back as the bathroom, no electricity, no running water, no telephone lines within 100 miles. But of course, such a deployment would require labor and nobody wants to pay salaries of people who go into these places and try to hook up things, it's too boring. It's much more interesting and sexy to buy plastic boxes that work real cool in a 2000's American bedroom and ship them out to the boondocks in Africa. Makes people really feel as though they are helping. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
On Tue, Nov 13, 2007 at 10:31:14AM -0500, Bart Silverstrim wrote: You're aware that by offering your opinion while chastising people for doing likewise, you're contributing to the topic you're chastising, right? Actually . . . I thought the points were made well. I think perhaps you have a misconception about what was intended. My understanding is that the previous post was intended to chastise someone for an unthinking, reactionary response, and point out a more reasonable alternative, while I suspect yours was that the previous post was nothing more than a knee-jerk Can't we all just get along? with random opinions thrown in -- and you objected to the opinions part, but not the Can't we all just get along? I personally find vapid, insipid Can't we all just get along? statements odious and unproductive. I found the post to which you replied well reasoned and valuable, if a little abrasive. -- CCD CopyWrite Chad Perrin [ http://ccd.apotheon.org ] John Kenneth Galbraith: If all else fails, immortality can always be assured through spectacular error. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ I have to agree with many posters, this project is the most seriously misdirected, biggest crock of shit I've heard of in years. We're talkin' people in 3rd world conditions, without basic essentials of life, and some idiot wants to give them COMPUTERS?!?!? WFT? Where are they gonna get electricity to charge them, instruction in use, repair, software updates, etc. And they don't have toilet paper, so all the keys on the left half are gonna go bad! -R ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
Rob wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ I have to agree with many posters, this project is the most seriously misdirected, biggest crock of shit I've heard of in years. We're talkin' people in 3rd world conditions, without basic essentials of life, and some idiot wants to give them COMPUTERS?!?!? WFT? Where are they gonna get electricity to charge them, instruction in use, repair, software updates, etc. And they don't have toilet paper, so all the keys on the left half are gonna go bad! Have you read the articles on OLPC? They're made to run on very low power. They have batteries that can be crank-charged quickly, or run off small solar panels. Somehow I don't think they're short on sunlight there. The laptopgiving.org site states that it operates up to 2,000 recharge cycles and can be charged by crank, pedal, pullcord, or solar panel. It's not like they're shipping off-the-shelf laptops to them. While there are plenty of problems for these kids, the OLPC project is a way to try to help with education and interaction. The units work with a type of automatic mesh network. As I understand it, if one gets access to the Internet, they all can route to it, but even if not they connect to each other for social and collaborative applications. Just because there are many third-world countries out there doesn't mean that someone can't try something to improve things. Maybe it'll fail miserably. Maybe it'll help give a boost to the conditions of the education system. It's worse that you're in a place where you have plenty of access to education and information and you didn't bother to look up how the XO works before bashing it on the forums. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
On Nov 13, 2007 2:52 PM, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ I have to agree with many posters, this project is the most seriously misdirected, biggest crock of shit I've heard of in years. We're talkin' people in 3rd world conditions, without basic essentials of life, and some idiot wants to give them COMPUTERS?!?!? WFT? Where are they gonna get electricity to charge them, instruction in use, repair, software updates, etc. And they don't have toilet paper, so all the keys on the left half are gonna go bad! when the F! is this going to end? all that is happening here is an exchange of stereotype opinions about the matter. nothing new, nothing original, nothing is going to come out of this, all this has been discussed already on numerous sites ( slashdot, digg, wherever ). your opinion is useless to freebsd-questions. please go annoy your relatives and friends. furthermore, you are extremely short sighted. are you aware rice was dumped in some African countries which ruined their local rice farmers? ever heard of learned helplessness? ever considered that not all children in 3rd world countries starve to death? if anyone wants to ramble on, please do so on the chat list. or bugger of to digg. pardon my french, usleep PS: you should be ashamed of yourself regarding your statement about the toilet paper. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 13, 2007 2:52 PM, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ I have to agree with many posters, this project is the most seriously misdirected, biggest crock of shit I've heard of in years. We're talkin' people in 3rd world conditions, without basic essentials of life, and some idiot wants to give them COMPUTERS?!?!? WFT? Where are they gonna get electricity to charge them, instruction in use, repair, software updates, etc. And they don't have toilet paper, so all the keys on the left half are gonna go bad! when the F! is this going to end? all that is happening here is an exchange of stereotype opinions about the matter. nothing new, nothing original, nothing is going to come out of this, all this has been discussed already on numerous sites ( slashdot, digg, wherever ). your opinion is useless to freebsd-questions. please go annoy your relatives and friends. furthermore, you are extremely short sighted. are you aware rice was dumped in some African countries which ruined their local rice farmers? ever heard of learned helplessness? ever considered that not all children in 3rd world countries starve to death? if anyone wants to ramble on, please do so on the chat list. or bugger of to digg. You're aware that by offering your opinion while chastising people for doing likewise, you're contributing to the topic you're chastising, right? ;-) -Bart ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 13, 2007 2:52 PM, Rob [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ I have to agree with many posters, this project is the most seriously misdirected, biggest crock of shit I've heard of in years. We're talkin' people in 3rd world conditions, without basic essentials of life, and some idiot wants to give them COMPUTERS?!?!? WFT? Where are they gonna get electricity to charge them, instruction in use, repair, software updates, etc. And they don't have toilet paper, so all the keys on the left half are gonna go bad! when the F! is this going to end? all that is happening here is an exchange of stereotype opinions about the matter. nothing new, nothing original, nothing is going to come out of this, all this has been discussed already on numerous sites ( slashdot, digg, wherever ). your opinion is useless to freebsd-questions. please go annoy your relatives and friends. furthermore, you are extremely short sighted. are you aware rice was dumped in some African countries which ruined their local rice farmers? ever heard of learned helplessness? ever considered that not all children in 3rd world countries starve to death? if anyone wants to ramble on, please do so on the chat list. or bugger of to digg. pardon my french, usleep PS: you should be ashamed of yourself regarding your statement about the toilet paper. Again, please act like adults and stop this bikeshed on this list, as there are many people subscribed to it. End of discussion. -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
On Sunday 11 November 2007, Olivier Nicole said: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... Olivier From what I've been reading they are addressing this issue. One way was providing solar power recharging stations. The other was hooking up carousel type playground equipment to a small generator to recharge the laptops. The third was good old WWII vintage hand crank power. I also read that these laptops are optimized for low power usage. I live in Alaska and they have been using the internet for education in rural villiages for many years with much success. I personally think this is a great idea. Too bad they won't all be running FreeBSD :-) -- --- Beech Rintoul - FreeBSD Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] /\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign | FreeBSD Since 4.x \ / - NO HTML/RTF in e-mail | http://www.freebsd.org X - NO Word docs in e-mail | Latest Release: / \ - http://www.FreeBSD.org/releases/6.2R/announce.html --- ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 07:55:01PM -1000, Robert Marella wrote: Aloha FreeBSD Users I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ Have a very good day Robert This project is among the best and most selfless, not to mention innovative and techy, since we-geeks began hacking code. I'm going to buy at least two of these computers. Two for my household, and two for poor children *everywhere*. (had i not lucked into education, i dread to think of where i'd have wound up.) gary -- Gary Kline [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.thought.org Public Service Unix http://jottings.thought.org http://transfinite.thought.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 14:04:04 +0700 (ICT) Olivier Nicole [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... Olivier http://www.newsweek.com/id/41724 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
Olivier Nicole wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... You ought to actually _visit_ one or more of the schools that have practical computers for the kids. At least in my own experience, well, it's very disillusioning. The teachers have only a vague notion about what a compuiter is, so basically the students are given some games to waste their time with, and graded on how quiet they are while playing. The teachers themselves are usually actually frightened of the machines, so they react negatively to anyone who volunteers to teach computers. I wish it wasn't this way. Maybe it's just in the schools I visited? If so, anyone have a better experience? Until I hear of some, I won't contribute to any computers for kids deal, because it only benefits big computer companies, who sell the machines, not the kids. Olivier ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OFFTOPIC] Re: One Laptop Per Child
On Monday 12 November 2007 19:06:28 Chuck Robey wrote: I wish it wasn't this way. Maybe it's just in the schools I visited? If so, anyone have a better experience? Until I hear of some, I won't contribute to any computers for kids deal, because it only benefits big computer companies, who sell the machines, not the kids. It is true that the companies that sell computers and software benefit, but the same could be said of companies that sell state-approved textbooks to schools (if you have seen those textbooks you know what I mean), the companies that sell shoes for sports, etc. There is one large software company that gives some software to schools and then gets a tax cut even though it benefits down the line when those kids grow up to buy that company's software because that is the software they know. I still think it is better for kids to know how to use computers, even if a few business people also benefit. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
Chuck Robey wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... You ought to actually _visit_ one or more of the schools that have practical computers for the kids. At least in my own experience, well, it's very disillusioning. The teachers have only a vague notion about what a compuiter is, so basically the students are given some games to waste their time with, and graded on how quiet they are while playing. The teachers themselves are usually actually frightened of the machines, so they react negatively to anyone who volunteers to teach computers. I wish it wasn't this way. Maybe it's just in the schools I visited? If so, anyone have a better experience? Until I hear of some, I won't contribute to any computers for kids deal, because it only benefits big computer companies, who sell the machines, not the kids. I'd say that it is possible your observations have clued you in on a large problem. Of course, it's likely not that way everywhere, but one result of a lack of teacher education re: computers is that people tend to think that they are computer literate if they can handle an office suite and use a pointy-clicky interface to build web pages --- which explains a few things about the culture at large. Another problem is that use of the Internet for research in writing papers, etc. often misses the crucial old school step of actually writing notes based on the books your read before you begin the paper. Recently I read a report by a 9th grader that was composed mostly of direct quotes from Wikipedia, et al, with no attribution whatsoever. Copy n Paste may work in elementary art classes, but it's no good in academic research unless great pains are taken to ensure understanding and proper attribution. And, this may be near the real heart of the issue. I don't think that many school administrators feel that games, educational or not, are the reason that schools should have computers. I think that, in large extent, computers were added when some of them discovered that the Internet could give you more volumes of information than the school library, without leaving your seat or requiring a hall pass. And that is why teachers should be a little more geeky, perhaps. Plugging a child's computer into the network without knowledgeable and *personal* guidance will pretty much guarantee that most kids end up on the baser end of the 'Net, rather than the best. And, for the most part, teachers are no less busy than they were 10, 20, or 30 years ago. My $.02, Kevin Kinsey -- There has been a little distress selling on the stock exchange. -- Thomas W. Lamont, October 29, 1929 ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
On 2007-11-12 Olivier Nicole wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... I second the idea. No doubt that OLPC is a great effort but I wonder how such ideas will be useful in 3rd world countries where the IT infrastructures are so poor that even dial-up Internet is not available in some towns, let alone villages and rural regions. I try to be not cynic but there are so many problems in education system that learning how to use a computer has a low priority. Anyway, let's hope OLPC will do what it's supposed to do. -- Bahman Movaqar Whenever there are great virtues, it's a sure sign something's wrong. -Bertolt Brecht ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: One Laptop Per Child
On Mon, Nov 12, 2007, Pollywog wrote: On Monday 12 November 2007 19:06:28 Chuck Robey wrote: I wish it wasn't this way. Maybe it's just in the schools I visited? If so, anyone have a better experience? Until I hear of some, I won't contribute to any computers for kids deal, because it only benefits big computer companies, who sell the machines, not the kids. It is true that the companies that sell computers and software benefit, but the same could be said of companies that sell state-approved textbooks to schools (if you have seen those textbooks you know what I mean), the companies that sell shoes for sports, etc. There is one large software company that gives some software to schools and then gets a tax cut even though it benefits down the line when those kids grow up to buy that company's software because that is the software they know. The biggest problem I see with computers in classrooms is that they distract the student's attention from the teacher. I know that I have to back away from my computer completely when talking on the phone, unless I'm doing direct support at the time, because I find myself distracted from the conversation. I'll leave it at that as I don't want to take this in the direction of government schools as indoctrination centers. Bill -- INTERNET: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC URL: http://www.celestial.com/ PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way FAX:(206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676 We shouldn't elect a President; we should elect a magician. Will Rogers ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Re: One Laptop Per Child
Pollywog wrote: On Monday 12 November 2007 19:06:28 Chuck Robey wrote: I wish it wasn't this way. Maybe it's just in the schools I visited? If so, anyone have a better experience? Until I hear of some, I won't contribute to any computers for kids deal, because it only benefits big computer companies, who sell the machines, not the kids. It is true that the companies that sell computers and software benefit, but the same could be said of companies that sell state-approved textbooks to schools (if you have seen those textbooks you know what I mean), the companies that sell shoes for sports, etc. There is one large software company that gives some software to schools and then gets a tax cut even though it benefits down the line when those kids grow up to buy that company's software because that is the software they know. Yeah, but in this case, I know more: a lady friend of mine was an editor for a large educational publishing house. Those places (and more specifically the folks that work in them) are rather embarrassed at having to put all that garbage into state textbooks, but the state boards of education require it. They don't want to do it, but they have to, to be able to sell their product. The local state officials are at fault here, not the companies nor those who work for them. I used to listen by the hour to complaints about the stupidity and cupidity of those state officials, from that lady. I still think it is better for kids to know how to use computers, even if a few business people also benefit. Hmm. Several of the classes I walked into were disappointing to me, where the kids were made to feel good at being able to play computer games well. If you think that's good for kids, it's your money, I suppose. The teachers were given no training whatever in computers, so they had no ability to do better. I would not contribute to such an item. A program that produces better educational software, that I could see, but not giving computers to schools, that is very counter-productive. Let them eat Doom! I think we should move this to FreeBSD-chat. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
Bahman M. writes: On 2007-11-12 Olivier Nicole wrote: That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... I second the idea. No doubt that OLPC is a great effort but I wonder how such ideas will be useful in 3rd world countries where the IT infrastructures are so poor that even dial-up Internet is not available in some towns, let alone villages and rural regions. I try to be not cynic but there are so many problems in education system that learning how to use a computer has a low priority. The problem I have always had with this is computer use does not exist in a vacuum; it changes, and is changed by, the society in which it happens. If I look at the countries of the first world, I see places that have walked the path from the written word to the telegraph to the telephone to the computer. At each step they've tested the new technology, learning what it can and cannot do, discovering stuff the inventors never even imagined, discarding ideas that are techically problematic or culturally unpalatable, and adapting to it as it adapted to them. Now consider dropping 100,000 OLPC on a country where the (median and mode) hardware layer is paper and ink, the government - often autocratic and kleptocratic - cannot manage to install and run a 1950's era phone system, and religious leaders fulminate against imunization as a foreign plot. Even under the best of circumstaces exactly what do people reasoaly expect to happen? Robert Huff ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
On Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:56:34 -0500 Robert Huff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem I have always had with this is computer use does not exist in a vacuum; it changes, and is changed by, the society in which it happens. If I look at the countries of the first world, I see places that have walked the path from the written word to the telegraph to the telephone to the computer. At each step they've tested the new technology, learning what it can and cannot do, discovering stuff the inventors never even imagined, discarding ideas that are techically problematic or culturally unpalatable, and adapting to it as it adapted to them. Now consider dropping 100,000 OLPC on a country where the (median and mode) hardware layer is paper and ink, the government - often autocratic and kleptocratic - cannot manage to install and run a 1950's era phone system, and religious leaders fulminate against imunization as a foreign plot. Even under the best of circumstaces exactly what do people reasoaly expect to happen? In my opinion you underestimate the abilities of people. There is no need for the people of the third world countries to evolve as we did. One only needs to look at the progress made in China over the last few decades. People who never had a telephone, facsimile, radio or in some cases even books are now using cell phones, computers and televisions. China is becoming more capitalistic, if not democratic, not because the government wants it to but because it has to. The people are more knowledgeable about the rest of the world because of the new ways of communication. If only one percent of the 100,000 laptops in your above example were to fall into hands of some child who is awakened to a new world then that is 1,000 children who will grow up and help change that country. As someone else stated, It's my money. I have completed the give one, get one order form. I hope my laptop is sent to a worthy child but if not so be it. I have not decided what to do with the one that I receive. My grand daughter is only 3 and I think that is a little to young. I will probably give the laptop to one of my great nieces. Robert ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
Kevin Kinsey wrote: Chuck Robey wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... You ought to actually _visit_ one or more of the schools that have practical computers for the kids. At least in my own experience, well, it's very disillusioning. The teachers have only a vague notion about what a compuiter is, so basically the students are given some games to waste their time with, and graded on how quiet they are while playing. The teachers themselves are usually actually frightened of the machines, so they react negatively to anyone who volunteers to teach computers. I wish it wasn't this way. Maybe it's just in the schools I visited? If so, anyone have a better experience? Until I hear of some, I won't contribute to any computers for kids deal, because it only benefits big computer companies, who sell the machines, not the kids. I'd say that it is possible your observations have clued you in on a large problem. Of course, it's likely not that way everywhere, but one result of a lack of teacher education re: computers is that people tend to think that they are computer literate if they can handle an office suite and use a pointy-clicky interface to build web pages --- which explains a few things about the culture at large. Another problem is that use of the Internet for research in writing papers, etc. often misses the crucial old school step of actually writing notes based on the books your read before you begin the paper. Recently I read a report by a 9th grader that was composed mostly of direct quotes from Wikipedia, et al, with no attribution whatsoever. Copy n Paste may work in elementary art classes, but it's no good in academic research unless great pains are taken to ensure understanding and proper attribution. And, this may be near the real heart of the issue. I don't think that many school administrators feel that games, educational or not, are the reason that schools should have computers. I think that, in large extent, computers were added when some of them discovered that the Internet could give you more volumes of information than the school library, without leaving your seat or requiring a hall pass. And that is why teachers should be a little more geeky, perhaps. Plugging a child's computer into the network without knowledgeable and *personal* guidance will pretty much guarantee that most kids end up on the baser end of the 'Net, rather than the best. And, for the most part, teachers are no less busy than they were 10, 20, or 30 years ago. My $.02, Kevin Kinsey Could you guys please redirect this discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks... -Garrett ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
The door open and in walked trouble - disguised as our our old nemesis [EMAIL PROTECTED], who uttered, at Mon, Nov 12, 2007 at 21:37 : Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 13:30:46 -0600 From: Kevin Kinsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: One Laptop Per Child To: Chuck Robey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [edited to only portions I comment upon - wjv] Chuck Robey wrote: I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... You ought to actually _visit_ one or more of the schools that have practical computers for the kids. At least in my own experience, well, it's very disillusioning. The teachers have only a vague notion about what a compuiter is, so basically the students are given some games to waste their time with, and graded on how quiet they are while playing. The teachers themselves are usually actually frightened of the machines, so they react negatively to anyone who volunteers to teach computers. I wish it wasn't this way. Maybe it's just in the schools I visited? If so, anyone have a better experience? Until I hear of some, I won't contribute to any computers for kids deal, because it only benefits big computer companies, who sell the machines, not the kids. I'd say that it is possible your observations have clued you in on a large problem. Of course, it's likely not that way everywhere, but one result of a lack of teacher education re: computers is that people tend to think that they are computer literate if they can handle an office suite and use a pointy-clicky interface to build web pages --- which explains a few things about the culture at large. Education - over the time when technology started rearing it's head shortly after the turn of the second past century [eg 1900 and forward] often has looked to this technolog as the saviour of the educational environment. When radio came about it was looked upon as the way to educate million of children as radio could bring in information and perhaps experts in the field to cover what was needed. Then movies with sound came along - and the same arguments were made. Then television. Ah - now we can experts teaching children everywhere. The ulitmate talking heads experience IMO. And then color-television. That was to solve all the problems that b/w had - so you could see the colors in chemistry experiments for example. Then came the computer - with text screend. It was though that they needed graphics enviormennts. So those came about. Then it was color computers, then color computers with 3D graphics and of course sound. So for 70+ years people have seen the 'new technology' as ways to solve the problems seen or perhaps mis-seen in education. And what has it got us? Has we gotten children with better education. It seems today's studens have one of the prime goals is how to pass the FCATs and SATs. IOW they have been taught how to pass tests. They have not been educated but taught. And if when they go into the world the come across problems for which they have not been taught - they are lost because they have not been educated [a distinction I make but others may not] to understand that with which they are working and being able to figure out on their own how to solve the problem. Learning to pass tests doesn't prepare them for that. Another problem is that use of the Internet for research in writing papers, etc. often misses the crucial old school step of actually writing notes based on the books your read before you begin the paper. Recently I read a report by a 9th grader that was composed mostly of direct quotes from Wikipedia, et al, with no attribution whatsoever. Copy n Paste may work in elementary art classes, but it's no good in academic research unless great pains are taken to ensure understanding and proper attribution. And the problem with using the 'net for research is that so much of what has been printed in the past - pre-mid-90s - has not [yet] been made available for searching. Sometimes you have to go into the stacks at a decent library and pull down a book that hasn't been opening in 30 to 50 [or more] years to find the real answers to your problem. And, this may be near the real heart of the issue. I don't think that many school administrators feel that games, educational or not, are the reason that schools should have computers. I think that, in large extent, computers were added when some of them discovered that the Internet could give you more volumes of information than the school library, without leaving your seat or requiring a hall pass. And I see problems
Subject: Re: One Laptop Per Child
http://www.presentaid.org/invt/oxandplough ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
One Laptop Per Child
Aloha FreeBSD Users I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ Have a very good day Robert ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
I am usually not the one to bring up these things but I feel very strongly about this. Starting Monday, November 12 this website is offering a give one get one deal. I believe the money will be well invested. YMMV http://xogiving.org/ That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. We are talking giving laptop to people who do not even have electricity in some cases... Olivier ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: One Laptop Per Child
I know this is off topic... That is a difficult issue, while this is an opportunity, I doubt this is the most needed thing to provide education. You are correct sometimes it isn't the most important thing. However, in many, many cases it is. As with any aid project, it needs to form part of a range of things on offer. Until now, no one has really sought to fill this huge gap and so this is a big step forward in dealing with the digital divide that exists in many parts of the world. Anyhow, back to freeBSD. :) ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
