Re: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched.
bsdnooby writes: > When I try to install FreeBSD, my brand new HP Pavilion laptop turns > itself off. While it's rather late for me to make this observation, I find that computers from big-name vendors tend to show a great deal of interdependence between the pre-installed OS and the hardware. The vendors often design the systems around the assumption that the pre-installed OS (normally Windows) will be the one and only OS on the machine. There may be tweaks in the OEM installation of the OS that accommodate tweaks in the hardware, or vice versa. Because of this, it can be very problematic to wipe the disk on such a machine and install a new one. It should always be possible, but the amount of effort required to get it working may sometimes be substantial. I've seen server machines afflicted in the same way. Compaq has long had a habit of messing around with this sort of thing, and unfortunately HP often makes similar mistakes. High-end HP machines even have custom motherboards and a custom BIOS (both created by HP for HP and with a specific OS in mind), although I don't think the Pavilion is one of these machines. Worse yet, some BIOS show the same tendency, although at least in that case you can usually enter the BIOS at boot and undo whatever the defaults are set for Windows. Ideally, then, for something other than the pre-installed OS (such as FreeBSD), you're probably better off buying an off-brand PC made from off-the-shelf components, or building your own machine yourself. This is what I did for my server, and I was pleasantly surprised when it booted up instantly into FreeBSD as soon as I installed my existing disk drive from the old server (although I reinstalled the OS, anyway, in order to make sure it corresponded exactly to the new hardware configuration). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
RE: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched.
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony > Atkielski > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2005 9:28 PM > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched. > > > bsdnooby writes: > > > When I try to install FreeBSD, my brand new HP Pavilion laptop turns > > itself off. > > While it's rather late for me to make this observation, I find that > computers from big-name vendors tend to show a great deal of > interdependence between the pre-installed OS and the hardware. The > vendors often design the systems around the assumption that the > pre-installed OS (normally Windows) will be the one and only OS on the > machine. There may be tweaks in the OEM installation of the OS that > accommodate tweaks in the hardware, or vice versa. > Generally the MO in the past has been to use the el-cheapo-ist components possible, then when the OEM vendors discover some hardware bug or other shortfall, they have Microsoft help them to write around the problems with various patches, which are included in the OEM version of Windows. While this has (mostly) gone away for desktop systems, it is still going on fiercely with laptops. > > I've seen server machines afflicted in the same way. Compaq has long > had a habit of messing around with this sort of thing, and > unfortunately > HP often makes similar mistakes. > > High-end HP machines even have custom motherboards and a custom BIOS > (both created by HP for HP and with a specific OS in mind), although I > don't think the Pavilion is one of these machines. > First of all HP purchased Compaq a while ago, and when the sale was completed they dumped the Netserver line, servers from them are now HP Proliants. (Proliant was the Compaq line) The Netservers and Proliants in general never had touble with FreeBSD. Considering they certified them with Solaris/Netware/etc. they had to be pretty standard. Secondly, desktop systems from both vendors always sucked in this regard. Compaq even had the audacity one time to modify the Adaptec microcode for the AHA2740 scsi card for the Professional workstation line. > > Ideally, then, for something other than the pre-installed OS (such as > FreeBSD), you're probably better off buying an off-brand PC made from > off-the-shelf components, or building your own machine yourself. Fine advice for low-end servers and desktops. Terrible for high-end servers unless you really, really know what your doing, and you understand that your total cost will be more than if you just buy a turnkey server from someone. And rather impossible for laptops. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched.
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: > Generally the MO in the past has been to use the el-cheapo-ist components > possible, then when the OEM vendors discover some hardware bug or other > shortfall, they have Microsoft help them to write around the problems > with various patches, which are included in the OEM version of Windows. > > While this has (mostly) gone away for desktop systems, it is still going > on fiercely with laptops. One reason why I've always hated laptops. > First of all HP purchased Compaq a while ago, and when the sale was > completed they dumped the Netserver line, servers from them are > now HP Proliants. (Proliant was the Compaq line) Are they as good as their HP and Compaq predecessors? > The Netservers and Proliants in general never had touble with FreeBSD. > Considering they certified them with Solaris/Netware/etc. they had to > be pretty standard. Compaq Proliants had a lot of weird stuff running on the server, as I recall. As long as you stuck to the OEM versions it ran fine, but if you tried to wipe the machine and install a vanilla OS, things went wrong. > Fine advice for low-end servers and desktops. Terrible for high-end > servers unless you really, really know what your doing, and you > understand that your total cost will be more than if you just buy > a turnkey server from someone. And rather impossible for laptops. Impossible for laptops, yes. I assume anyone who needs a really high-end server is going to know a lot about what he is doing, anyway (much more so than the average user of a really high-end desktop). Of course, if you can find a high-end server that meets your requirements, there's no need to build one yourself. I'd still prefer that it be delivered without any OS, though, just to avoid the OEM tweaking. It's one thing to optimize server hardware and software for server use; I'm all in favor of that. But I think it should always be done with off-the-shelf products that you can buy anywhere, otherwise you risk being the captive of a specific vendor or vendors. For every advantage you might get from OEM tweaks, there is likely to be a corresponding disadvantage. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched.
> > First of all HP purchased Compaq a while ago, and when the sale was > > completed they dumped the Netserver line, servers from them are > > now HP Proliants. (Proliant was the Compaq line) > > Are they as good as their HP and Compaq predecessors? We recently had a Proliant DL380 for testing, seemed like solid hardware, literally, the server management CD for preparing the system for different flavors of OSes just worked as it was supposed to, neat integrated systems management solutions. Fine hardware from what I could tell in the little time I had with it and OEM solutions that seemed actually usefull. > > The Netservers and Proliants in general never had touble with FreeBSD. > > Considering they certified them with Solaris/Netware/etc. they had to > > be pretty standard. > > Compaq Proliants had a lot of weird stuff running on the server, as I > recall. As long as you stuck to the OEM versions it ran fine, but if > you tried to wipe the machine and install a vanilla OS, things went > wrong. The usual (old) Compaq problems reside in the system partion (or rather lack thereof) and for the Desktops in the less than mediocre BIOS. For the older PL servers a server management boot CD is usually all you need to get whatever you want running, for the Desktops it usually involves hunting down some firmware upgrades and boot disks to restore the system partition, nothing out of the ordinary. My FreeBSD box runs on a Deskpro EP 400 desktop coupled with a SMART2/SL RAID controller ripped out of a PL1600 - you can love or hate compaq, but their hardware was rock-solid. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched.
Fabian Anklam writes: > We recently had a Proliant DL380 for testing, seemed like solid > hardware, literally, the server management CD for preparing the system > for different flavors of OSes just worked as it was supposed to ... What preparation is required? Can't you just wipe the disk and install what you want, or has HP/Compaq screwed around with the hardware so much that this is no longer possible? Do they provide for FreeBSD in their "preparations"? > The usual (old) Compaq problems reside in the system partion (or > rather lack thereof) and for the Desktops in the less than mediocre > BIOS. For the older PL servers a server management boot CD is usually > all you need to get whatever you want running, for the Desktops it > usually involves hunting down some firmware upgrades and boot disks to > restore the system partition, nothing out of the ordinary. So they are just as bad as they used to be. Compaq's own garbage on their machines has always been a support headache. They just can't leave things alone. > My FreeBSD box runs on a Deskpro EP 400 desktop coupled with a > SMART2/SL RAID controller ripped out of a PL1600 - you can love or > hate compaq, but their hardware was rock-solid. The hardware itself has had a very good reputation. I'm happy to hear that this is still the case (and unhappy to hear that they still can't keep their hands out of it). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
RE: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched.
> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anthony > Atkielski > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:23 AM > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched. > > > While this has (mostly) gone away for desktop systems, it is > still going > > on fiercely with laptops. > > One reason why I've always hated laptops. > ditto! > > First of all HP purchased Compaq a while ago, and when the sale was > > completed they dumped the Netserver line, servers from them are > > now HP Proliants. (Proliant was the Compaq line) > > Are they as good as their HP and Compaq predecessors? > Very much so. One of the things that HP did that was smart after the Compaq merger is they didn't screw with the server design and manufacturing group. (However the sales/customer service/ordering side of the company is a mess, that's why Carly got nailed) You have to take a lot of the trade rag articles with a grain of salt. It's currently fashionable for the trade press to write articles calling for HP to spin off it's PC computer group as if that's going to save them money somehow, followed by bemoaning the poor quality of the HP desktops. The articles conclude that HP must have lost focus since they can't made a decent PC. What this misses is that HP is like all other major PC manufacturers, all of their desktop line that's aimed at the home user/small business desktop market is just badged Chinese/Korean schlock. They have the cases, components, boards, chips, etc. all made in Korea then import the finished assemblies to the country of sale, and assemble them there at high speed. (Dell's plant in Texas can pump them out at a rate of 1 every 1.5 seconds) The assemblies are all using the same parts and the systems are pretty much equally schlocky. The companies that make profits in this market are the companies that can slap them together the fastest. HP's stuff is no worse or better than anyone else's in this market. The server design and manufacturing is a totally different animal. The companies like HP and Dell that make them custom design a large amount of the stuff and the assembly isn't the million-miles-a-second frantic pace of the desktop junk. > > The Netservers and Proliants in general never had touble > with FreeBSD. > > Considering they certified them with Solaris/Netware/etc. they had to > > be pretty standard. > > Compaq Proliants had a lot of weird stuff running on the server, as I > recall. As long as you stuck to the OEM versions it ran fine, but if > you tried to wipe the machine and install a vanilla OS, things went > wrong. > Not if you know what your doing. The sister company of the ISP I work at was a Compaq VAR, (is now an HP VAR) and all our servers are Proliants of various models. Yes, there is a lot of specialty hardware in these boxes. And yes to access all of that requires a handful of custom drivers. But, OEM versions of the operating systems aren't a requirement. You can install retail versions just fine - AS LONG AS you follow Compaq's instructions on how to install the retail OS's exactly. There is for example several hardware items in some of these servers where they are modded versions of off-the-shelf chips, and Compaq supplies modded windows drivers. If you don't use the Compaq driver then the retail OS will install it's included driver for the off-the-shelf version of the chip. And you only get 1 chance during the install of the retail OS that you can insert the Compaq-written driver properly. If you miss it, you have to wipe the disk and start over because the retail driver cannot be removed. There's unfortunately too many people in the business used to shooting from the hip on windows installs. Someone who didn't read the directions for the Proliant on how to install a retail version of Windows, for example, assuming "I've installed windows a hundred times I know what I'm doing and don't need no manual for dummies" is of course going to have things going wrong. > > Fine advice for low-end servers and desktops. Terrible for high-end > > servers unless you really, really know what your doing, and you > > understand that your total cost will be more than if you just buy > > a turnkey server from someone. And rather impossible for laptops. > > Impossible for laptops, yes. I assume anyone who needs a really > high-end server is going to know a lot about what he is doing, anyway Not at all realistic. The VAST and I mean VAST majority of people that need a high-end server are not technologists and don't know what the heck they are doing. They know whatever their business is like the back of their ha
