Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

Andrew L. Gould wrote:

On Wednesday 22 June 2005 10:35 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote:


Hi,


/--big snip--/


That was a good idea.


That's a great analogy; but I disagree with the way you've applied it.

Yes, the hunters and farmers shared the food.  That's not to say that 
the farmers wanted to use the bows and arrows, or that the hunters 
wanted to use a harvesting tool.  If a farmer chose to use a bow and 
arrow, he/she would be irresponsible not to take a safety lesson 
(RTFM).


Will ever any farmer have taken a bow if there was no other way than RTFM?

Just give them the bow, make sure nothing happens to yourself and otehr 
and let them have a try.


That's okay.  FreeBSD users are currently specialized in their 


This is one of the reasons of low 'market' share.

interest in computer technology when compared to the average Windows 
user.  That's okay too.   Specialized tools serve are used by 
specialized individuals; although all may benefit indirectly.


I support better documentation.  I don't think there's any argument 


I would not say there is a need for a better documentation as people who 
are IT professionals are fine with it. There is the need for a second 
set of documentation the avarage person on the road will understand.


there.  The idea that FreeBSD should be usable for all levels of 
computer users, however, is like putting training wheels on a racing 
bicycle.  Any time you modify a professional tool to make it accessible 


If Porsche would stop selling cars to people not pushing the cars to the 
limit, they would sell a few hundreds a year instead of many tenthousands.


to all, the tool loses some level of efficiency or power.  In the case 
of FreeBSD, it would also absorb valuable development resources.


This is what it should not. I think that there are enough people here 
who like to help out with their limited knowledge if there would not be 
this certain tone here if people do not use a very serious tone and 
lingo in their answers.


All of this reminds me of a book I saw at Barnes  Noble last year:  
Bioinfomatics for Dummies.  Think about it:  does anyone on this list 
want a dummy messing with genetics?


We do not want them to run web server, just normal home PCs with FreeBSD 
instead of Windows or Linux.


Erich
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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

-Original Message-
From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 8:36 PM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt
Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features


Hi,

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It
is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it.


 People pay for Windows, not for FreeBSD.  The support structures are
 totally different because of this.  If support is what hinges
on getting

I am not talking of the support people get by paying for it. Just go to
any support forum, mailing list or what ever name it has and
compare the
tone used there.

The support is done by volunteers just like here.

While people asking 'dumb' questions around FreeBSD just get a RTFM
while the same question around Windows might gives them a lot of verbal
abuse plus the answer. If a person wastes its time to write 'RTFM', the
same person could also write 'RTFM at page xx' and the answer is useful.


Tone is in the eye of the beholder.  Sure, posts all contain a tone
to them.  But very little posted on this mailing list has been
anywhere near as harsh as what you see sometimes on Usenet in the
FreeBSD groups there.

And I can tell you that absolutely nothing that I have EVER read
here or on USENET has EVER held a candle to the power and majesty
of the flames I used to read a decade ago the old WWIV network.  (that
software
is available http://wwiv.sourceforge.net/ if you are interested) If you
are
put off by the tone of what you see here, you would become catatonic
if you read 5 minutes of that.  Those flamers were so good that
they could cause temporary blindness to their victims.

 Bringing a large number of ignoramuses on board who are dedicated to
 continuing to be ignoramuses, does not help the FreeBSD project at
 all.  It may help some people making money off servicing those people,
 but otherwise they are deadweight.

Then, never complain that FreeBSD does not reach a higher market share.


_I_ don't.  Who does?


I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can
assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of
the book,
looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I
can use FreeBSD'.


Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a drivers license?


 I can only ask why do you bother to garden in the first
place?  Without
 that background, you don't know why the pesticide that she recommends
 works.  And next season if it doesen't work, you don't know
why either.

I hope you never fall sick or have to undergo a serious
surgery.

I've undergone far more serious surgery than you ever have, I'll wager.
Try tumor removal.  Where the tumor is next to your spine.  You know,
there's a few things in the way - like the small intestine.  You wanna
know what they do with that when they have to get at tumors
at that location?  I'll give you a hint - you don't get solid food for
half a week at least before that operation, and your on an IV only, no
drinking, for a day beforehand.

 As long
as you do not understand how the whole procedure works, the doctor will
not be able to treat you.


That is correct.  I don't allow someone to cut into my body until they
have carefully explained how the whole procedure works and I understand
it.  I'm surprised you do.


 Honestly, before you knock it, you should try to understand
how the world
 works sometime.  It's really a better way to live.  Do you
really want to

Let me put it this way. A long time ago, we call it now stone age, the
people started to realise that a group of people shows better
results if
they specialise. The people better in hunting went hunting, the people
better in 'farming'. Despite one group did not know how the other group
got their kind of food, they shared it.


And how exactly did they find out from the group of kids growing up
each year which ones were better farmers and which ones were better
hunters?

At one point, the kids knew how to do both.  You see, the stone age
people understood that just because you had specialization, didn't
mean that learning about someone else's specialty was a bad thing.
After all, that other specialist might get et by a tiger, one day,
and have to be replaced.

That worked real well until the religious bigots came along and started
enforcing stuff like the caste system, and forcing kids into the same
jobs that their fathers, and father's fathers, and so on forever and
ever,
had held.  That's when it became OK for everyone to be completely
ignorant
of how to do anyone elses' job but what their caste had always done.

Ted

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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:



Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:


Tone is in the eye of the beholder.  Sure, posts all contain a tone
to them.  But very little posted on this mailing list has been
anywhere near as harsh as what you see sometimes on Usenet in the
FreeBSD groups there.

I did not say this at all. This tone is not abusive at all. It is also a 
very serious tone. The problem is that this is a tone a high number of 
people has problems with.



And I can tell you that absolutely nothing that I have EVER read
here or on USENET has EVER held a candle to the power and majesty


Nothing ever came even close to the abuse at the national service I did. 
So, I also know the other extreme.



Then, never complain that FreeBSD does not reach a higher market share.


_I_ don't.  Who does?

Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some 
activity going in.



I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can
assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of
the book,
looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I
can use FreeBSD'.


Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a drivers license?


I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a deserted place.



That is correct.  I don't allow someone to cut into my body until they
have carefully explained how the whole procedure works and I understand
it.  I'm surprised you do.

There is another difference. I asked 'my' surgeon a simple question: how 
many died in your hands doing this. The number wasn't zero but within 
avarage. With other words, I just trust them.


And how exactly did they find out from the group of kids growing up
each year which ones were better farmers and which ones were better
hunters?

At one point, the kids knew how to do both.  You see, the stone age
people understood that just because you had specialization, didn't
mean that learning about someone else's specialty was a bad thing.


But how deep did they go into the other's field?

And, to come back to RTFM, did they first read a handbook or did they 
just have a try?



After all, that other specialist might get et by a tiger, one day,
and have to be replaced.


This happens now to specialists running Windows catching a virus too.


That worked real well until the religious bigots came along and started


Yes, but there is a small difference to FreeBSD's use by others: they 
are not forced to use FreeBSD and they should be used to RTFM.


There are so many people out there who do not understand things this 
way. Just allow them with some help from others who are willing to help.


Erich
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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

-Original Message-
From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2005 2:05 AM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt
Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features



 _I_ don't.  Who does?

Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some
activity going in.

Most of the rank and file argued long against that contest.

 Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a
drivers license?

I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a
deserted place.

I didn't say learned driving I said get a license  You have
to learn what's in the manual to pass the test to get the license.



 That is correct.  I don't allow someone to cut into my body until they
 have carefully explained how the whole procedure works and I
understand
 it.  I'm surprised you do.

There is another difference. I asked 'my' surgeon a simple
question: how
many died in your hands doing this. The number wasn't zero but within
avarage. With other words, I just trust them.

It's not a question of trust, it's a question of do I understand what
is going to happen.  I find post-operative pain a lot easier to bear
when I know why it's hurting.


Yes, but there is a small difference to FreeBSD's use by others: they
are not forced to use FreeBSD and they should be used to RTFM.

There are so many people out there who do not understand things this
way. Just allow them with some help from others who are willing to help.


Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer that
he asks which is in the manual IS help.

Ted

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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:



_I_ don't.  Who does?


Some do a logo contest to make FreeBSD more appearing, there is some
activity going in.


Most of the rank and file argued long against that contest.


Not only them.


Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a


drivers license?

I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a
deserted place.



I didn't say learned driving I said get a license  You have
to learn what's in the manual to pass the test to get the license.

I also never studied that one. With other words: there is more than one 
way to get the knowledge.


It's not a question of trust, it's a question of do I understand what
is going to happen.  I find post-operative pain a lot easier to bear
when I know why it's hurting.


I do not bother to understand as long they say it is all right.


Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer that
he asks which is in the manual IS help.

Yes, it is help. But how dumb does a person have to be if this is of 
real help?


Erich
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[cali]

Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer that
he asks which is in the manual IS help.

Yes, it is help. But how dumb does a person have to be if this is of real 
help?


If they were like ultra-newbie, they might not even know how to access the 
manual, but this is improbable.


The idea is, the newbie gets repeatedly told RTFM, so that eventually they 
get the idea that they must work it out for themselves because they develop 
this inner fear of asking for help and being ridiculed, ie they don't want 
to portray themselves as a lamer. Usually it works.


Sometimes there are people who will spout RTFM willy-nilly. I have 
witnessed on several occassions (not on this list) of people spouting RTFM 
when the manual in question did not contain the answer to the question asked 
at all, thereby backfiring on the RTFM spouter and resulting in 
self-ridicule. In such cases I believe that the spouter has some self-esteem 
problem and likes to newbie-bash, or just hazards a guess that the answer 
must be in the manual and automatically spouts RTFM.


So the question bearer should state whether they have read the manual first. 
Then if it turns out that the answer is in the manual, they shall be 
ridiculed, resulting in them hopefully being much more careful next time 
when they read the manual.


Sometimes people ask simple questions, the answer is in the manual, but 
reading the manual to find the answer is akin to reading a book to discover 
how many pages it has. In such cases one feels that the information asked 
should be somewhere else, not buried in a big manual. It may be more useful 
in such cases to just answer the question so it ends up in the mailing 
archive and comes up when someone searches for it.


cali 


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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Giorgos Keramidas]

On 2005-06-23 12:51, cali [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 If they were like ultra-newbie, they might not even know how to access
 the manual, but this is improbable.

 The idea is, the newbie gets repeatedly told RTFM, so that
 eventually they get the idea that they must work it out for themselves
 because they develop this inner fear of asking for help and being
 ridiculed, ie they don't want to portray themselves as a
 lamer. Usually it works.

 Sometimes there are people who will spout RTFM willy-nilly. I have
 witnessed on several occassions (not on this list) of people spouting
 RTFM when the manual in question did not contain the answer to the
 question asked at all, thereby backfiring on the RTFM spouter and
 resulting in self-ridicule. In such cases I believe that the spouter
 has some self-esteem problem and likes to newbie-bash, or just hazards
 a guess that the answer must be in the manual and automatically spouts
 RTFM.

 So the question bearer should state whether they have read the manual
 first. Then if it turns out that the answer is in the manual, they
 shall be ridiculed, resulting in them hopefully being much more
 careful next time when they read the manual.

 Sometimes people ask simple questions, the answer is in the manual,
 but reading the manual to find the answer is akin to reading a book to
 discover how many pages it has. In such cases one feels that the
 information asked should be somewhere else, not buried in a big
 manual. It may be more useful in such cases to just answer the
 question so it ends up in the mailing archive and comes up when
 someone searches for it.

I'm not watching the entire thread, so what I write below may seem a bit
out of context.  On the other hand, this particular post shows some of
the few points I don't like about a stream of RTFM responses.

You seem to overvalue ridicule, IMHO.

My intuition and experience with asking questions so far seems to be
that it's usually a much better idea to give two-fold answers:

- Actually point the user to a working solution (assuming there
  is one, of course).
- Include relevant pointers to further documentation.

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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Jun 23, 2005, at 5:04 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote:


Hi,

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can
assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of
the book,
looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I
can use FreeBSD'.

Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a drivers 
license?
I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a deserted 
place.


So...you learn what the interface tells you and your intuition can 
figure out.  Other people learn by reading and finding out how things 
work so they actually know what's going on.


It's always entertaining to do something on the computer that the user 
never stumbled across before and is amazed that a task could be done 
that way.  How did you know that?  I can read.


Even more fun are the people that stumble their way through 
applications to the point where it looks like they're doing something 
productive and may even end up with an end product (barely), but have 
no clue what they did or how they did it and what they ended up with 
was so wrong that it can end up being a headache for the next person 
in line to deal with.  For example, there was someone I knew who did a 
small publication with a popular (read: Microsoft) application that 
required a number of graphics be inserted along with text boxes and a 
full layout all arranged before the document was sent to the printer 
(a printer as in a contracted publisher).  The end result was nearly 
400 meg.  I looked at it and saw that they had inserted a number of 
graphics that were in their original format...namely, huge.  I'm 
talking about jpg files that were easily over a meg each.  The person 
had inserted the graphic and just scaled it down using copy and paste 
from a graphics program, so the original full-res image was getting 
embedded into the document when, for the quality of the printing that 
was going to be made, it was definitely not needed.


Where are the graphics you used?

I don't know...I just have them on the desktop and here and there...

So we spent some time trying to track those down, since the person 
didn't know how to organize their files so they had stuff spread out 
wherever seemed to work.  Some of the pictures were scanned in; where 
did they save them?  Didn't know that either.


Next I showed them the difference between the application just scaling 
the image as viewed and embedded, and actually taking the image in an 
image editor and resizing it, then saving the resulting image and using 
that in the publication document.  One meg pictures resized closer to 
the actual image size that was used in the document now only took a 
hundred kilobytes or so.


After going through this a few times (and making sure they saved the 
new images with a different filename to a specific directory so they 
could be referred back to), they set off on their own to continue the 
work.


The document that was 400 meg, when I checked before leaving, was down 
to around 80 meg, and they were still working on the document when I 
left the building.


Funny how sometimes knowing what you're doing by reading, working with 
it, trying to understand what's going on can beat raw I don't really 
give a d*mn how it works as long as it seems to work intuition 
sometimes.


I guess that's why it's harder nowadays to throw a car's transmission 
from drive into reverse.  Too many intuitive learners out there.


We no longer wish to take responsibility for our actions, and we are 
being trained not to even think for ourselves.  Curiosity is 
disappearing.  Immediate results, even if they are wrong or done so 
inefficiently that the end product of our labor is crud, is preferred 
over actually learning how to do it right (or at least better than our 
random guesses).


And before pointing out that people learn by randomly guessing at how 
to do things, there is a difference between what is motivating the 
object of my criticism and the artisan hacker, with hacker being a term 
applied to far more than just computers; the former is randomly 
guessing at things to just churn out crud and doesn't care how it is 
done, has no urge to know what they are doing, they simply care about 
getting from point A to point B.  The latter pokes at some things, 
finds this is the result, then analyzes the result and wonders...is 
there a better way to do this?  Then they proceed to retry it with a 
different approach to compare the results.  The latter gets from point 
A to point B, then looks to see if they could do it in a better way.  
If they get stuck they read the manual.  Or they read articles and 
postings about the topic at hand to see if someone else found a better 
way.  The latter also seem to be a dying breed.


As for the biologist neighbor not being an idiot and asking why study 
IT to use it, well, if you're an IT person, are you qualified to be a 
biologist?  Idiot 

Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Bart Silverstrim]

On Jun 23, 2005, at 6:30 AM, Erich Dollansky wrote:


Hi,

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:

Why should I study the drivers manual before getting a
drivers license?


I do not know why people do it. I just learned driving in a
deserted place.

I didn't say learned driving I said get a license  You have
to learn what's in the manual to pass the test to get the license.
I also never studied that one. With other words: there is more than 
one way to get the knowledge.


And so many ways never to learn the full potential of the tools you're 
using.



It's not a question of trust, it's a question of do I understand what
is going to happen.  I find post-operative pain a lot easier to bear
when I know why it's hurting.

I do not bother to understand as long they say it is all right.


Ignorance is bliss.  Letting others think for us gives away 
responsibility and power, but hey, it's less work than thinking.


It is for this reason that sysadmins end up having to clamp down so 
hard on so many desktop systems in organizations.  You don't want the 
responsibility of knowing why you shouldn't be doing this, so we'll 
simply not allow it anymore.  Why can't I get this attachment?  Because 
you like clicking before thinking.  Why can't I change my color schemes 
around?  Because you ask for help and it makes other people's eyes go 
wonky reading purple-on-pink text.  Why can't I save documents here 
instead of there?  Because we've warned people that area isn't backed 
up, you lost a file, and threw a fit when it couldn't be restored.  
Eventually you HAVE to turn the workstation into some kiosk-esque 
etch-a-sketch to keep them from screwing up their workstations with 
their random click-click-click.


Living in ignorance, and worse, being told that it's right to live in a 
state of ignorance, brings us to the state we're in today in the US.  
Everything is designed for idiots, we expect to legislate morality and 
intelligence (if it's harmful, we should ban it, make it illegal, or 
put so many warning stickers on it that only someone with the IQ of 
butter could operate it).


Ah, but help on who's terms? Telling a newbie to RTFM for an answer 
that

he asks which is in the manual IS help.
Yes, it is help. But how dumb does a person have to be if this is of 
real help?


I don't know the population of Estonia but knowing where to find the 
information can be of more help than memorizing that (changing) fact.


More often than not it's not a matter of a person being dumb as much as 
it is just being lazy.  Why read for help when we can ask a short, 
pointed, and specific question to experts and have them answer just 
my specific floating in the forefront of my head question right now?


It's of real help to try to get people to actually think on their own, 
and use the groups to clarify questions or share experiences or 
practical application information.  But I'm sure we're all guilty of 
asking questions when our needs would have been met by just RTFM at 
some point.  Or at least getting the pointer of where in TFM to look to 
cut down on the search time.


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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[cali]

I'm not watching the entire thread, so what I write below may seem a bit
out of context.  On the other hand, this particular post shows some of
the few points I don't like about a stream of RTFM responses.

You seem to overvalue ridicule, IMHO.


I was trying to illustrate the ridicule case rather than explicitly advocate 
it, but perhaps I came across as being too strong of an advocate.


I'm assuming that the ridicule approach does work sometimes, personally I 
think it worked for me to some extent.


There is also the silent-ridicule approach, where it is not necessary to 
explicity ridicule the question bearer, under the assumption that the 
question bearer will eventually become self-aware of what is ridiculous, and 
hence self-ridicule and scutinise prior to posting. Clearly in some cases 
the ridicule approach can be an effective primer for this state of mind.


The ridicule approach may not be the most effective primer. In many cases 
the ridicule will result in an increase in frustration and possibly a 
reduction in the users capacity to work the answer out for themselves.


I think, that really only questions, whose answers cannot readily be found 
elsewhere, should be asked on this list.


Part of the question-bearers education, whether that be from the list, or 
from other documentation, should result in the installation of the the 
solve-it-yourself mindset in their head. So that they are more tentative in 
their approach to asking questions, they should also become better problem 
solvers and FreeBSD users as a consequence of having to think for 
themselves.


Part of the FreeBSD education should consist of informing the user how they 
can help themselves, and how they should seek help in the event that the 
self-help fails. If that education scheme was effectively employed, perhaps 
there wouldn't be as many stupid questions.


But then again, perhaps this is the education, the self-realisation of this 
information without it explicitly being enumerated in some accesible form.


Cali 


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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Steve Bertrand]

 I think, that really only questions, whose answers cannot 
 readily be found elsewhere, should be asked on this list.

I disagree. For those working in a 24x7 uptime situation and a critical
problem arises, we all now that time is of the essence. I have no
problem someone asking a reasonably descriptive question even if it is
somewhat readily available on the 'Net if they can use that 10 minutes
of search time to conduct other emergency procedures while waiting an
answer from the list.

For the most part, yes, only non-readily available answers should be
posted to the list, but there are circumstances where the list can
provide, as someone else suggested a quick RTFM, here is the link to
what you are looking for.

A new user may take this as offensive, but it only really takes reading
a handful of threads in this FBSD-q list for anyone to realize that
people do really get honest, feasable, accurate and friendly help here.

 Part of the FreeBSD education should consist of informing the 
 user how they can help themselves, and how they should seek 
 help in the event that the self-help fails. If that education 
 scheme was effectively employed, perhaps there wouldn't be as 
 many stupid questions.

Yes, but how does one inform the user of the self-help approach.
Obviously putting that education in the handbook would be moot as they
likely haven't read the handbook anyway ;)

Steve



 
 Cali 
 
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Michael H. Semcheski]

On Thursday 23 June 2005 11:24 am, Steve Bertrand wrote:
  I think, that really only questions, whose answers cannot
  readily be found elsewhere, should be asked on this list.

 For the most part, yes, only non-readily available answers should be
 posted to the list, but there are circumstances where the list can
 provide, as someone else suggested a quick RTFM, here is the link to
 what you are looking for.

I think the answers that someone who has been using FreeBSD for 6 days or 6 
weeks can find are going to be a small subset of the set of answers found by 
someone who has been using FreeBSD for 6 years.

Often on mailing lists, I've been pointed in the ride direction.  If you say 
something as simple as check out man 8 sysctl, thats teaching someone to 
fish.  We aren't all born super-geniuses, but with a little help most of us 
can get on our way.

The other thing is if you do a google search for an error message you're 
having, you're likely to find archives of mailing lists.  Remember that when 
you answer a question.  This may come back and help someone out in a few 
years.  


  Part of the FreeBSD education should consist of informing the
  user how they can help themselves, and how they should seek
  help in the event that the self-help fails. If that education
  scheme was effectively employed, perhaps there wouldn't be as
  many stupid questions.

 Yes, but how does one inform the user of the self-help approach.
 Obviously putting that education in the handbook would be moot as they
 likely haven't read the handbook anyway ;)

Nobody starts out wanting to become an expert, they just want to accomplish a 
task.  Eventually, they may actually become an expert, or have the self-help 
skills to solve problems on their own.  With trial and error, you eventually 
find that asking for help is not the quickest or most reliable way to solve a 
problem in every case.  But, thats a necessary lesson to learn nonetheless.


Mike
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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

-Original Message-
From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 5:57 PM
To: Ted Mittelstaedt
Cc: Fafa Hafiz Krantz; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features



I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It
is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it.

People pay for Windows, not for FreeBSD.  The support structures are
totally different because of this.  If support is what hinges on getting
the no knowledge people on board, then you may as well give up now
because your never going to be able to fund the kind of support structure
Windows has from FreeBSD.


 This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD:

 You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works
 and how computer software that runs on it works in order to
 get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it
 works.

I do not think so.

If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into
problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here.


Why should they?  If they were paying someone for FreeBSD support that
is one thing.  Nobody is getting paid to answer questions on the mailing
list and on Usenet, if a no-knowledge person asks a question that is
answered in the manual, then it is going overboard already, to even
tell them to RTFM.  They really shouldn't be asking questions if they
haven't RTFMed.


What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once?


Bringing a large number of ignoramuses on board who are dedicated to
continuing to be ignoramuses, does not help the FreeBSD project at
all.  It may help some people making money off servicing those people,
but otherwise they are deadweight.

You know, even raw newbies who have RTFM can help the FreeBSD project
by answering posts on the support forums with pointers to the manual!!

There is no need for an interface like this if the people starting with
no computer knowledge would get proper help just to get the machine up
and running.


Proper help is in the manual, it is in my book, and in Greg Lehey's book,
and in several other books written by a number of people.  My book is
in the local public library, check it out!  So, I believe, is Greg's.
The official manual is online.  There are hundreds of web pages that
people have setup regarding FreeBSD installation that come up with
Google.

I am sorry you are going to have to do better than that.  The proper
help is out there, you just have to spend a little effort looking for it.

Let it tell me this way. I have a neighbour who has a Ph.D. in biology.
If she would give me the same answer when it comes to
gardening, I would
stop gardening as I do not want to know the background. All I want to
know is how I can get rid of a special kind of pest.


I can only ask why do you bother to garden in the first place?  Without
that background, you don't know why the pesticide that she recommends
works.  And next season if it doesen't work, you don't know why either.

It's like the saying give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach
him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime  You just want the fish - I
want to feed myself for the rest of my life.

Sadly, your attitude is one of the reasons that the United States is
being
run into the ground by a bunch of religious conservatives these days.
Those
people are just like you - they don't want to know anything about Stem
Cell
research, they just want to be told whether it's bad or not.

Honestly, before you knock it, you should try to understand how the world
works sometime.  It's really a better way to live.  Do you really want to
die like your distant ancestors did - not knowing why the rain falls, or
the wind blows, or the sun and moon rise and set?  Should the human
species
strive for an advanced technological society where all the members have
absolutely no clue as to how anything they use in their daily life even
works?
Are we to become a society of infants, with the machines taking care of
us
because we do not understand how they operate?

Ted

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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

-Original Message-
From: Erich Dollansky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 9:37 PM
To: Vulpes Velox
Cc: Ted Mittelstaedt; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features


Hi,

Vulpes Velox wrote:

 Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures,
 not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their
 weight if they don't help out.

This would be the real tough one.

There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the 
people between.

 I found the handbook to be useful in this area.

Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT 
professionals for 
serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT professional has 
problems understanding it.


Then read one of the many FreeBSD books.  The one by Annelise Anderson
is most certainly not written for serious IT professionals.  I know
because I have read it.

Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak the 
language none IT professionals understand.


No, your problem is that you are confusing TRAINING with INSTRUCTION.

The FreeBSD project has an obligation to provide instructions with the
system.  That, they do.

But they do not have an obligation to provide training, nor does any
company for their product.  Even Microsoft charges extra for that.

Ted
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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features (OT: end user policies)

[Csaba Henk]

On Tue, Jun 21, 2005 at 01:05:32AM -0700, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
 This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD:
 
 You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works
 and how computer software that runs on it works in order to
 get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it
 works.
 
 Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the
 interface to their operating systems.  Thus, an ignoramus
 can get up and running with both of these systems, and that
 person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant
 of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough
 to get the job done.  It may be a half-assed fix, but it is
 better than nothing.

Concerning Linux, I feel you generalize far too uncautiously.

From the POV of this discussion, there is no such thing as Linux OS.
Linux is just a kernel, as we know. There is no such a thing as
Gnu/Linux OS, either. Gnu/Linux is just a set of regularly updated
source tarballs. RedHat, Debian, Gentoo, SuSe, ... are operating
systems. Each of them is comparable with Windowses and BSDs in respect
of end user policies -- but the Linux kernel and the Gnu/Linux packages
as such don't interfere with end users.

Some of them are dumbed down, others are not.

Concerning the dumbed down ones: I'm eager to see one which passes the
following test. Toss in a data CD. The system will automount it and
place an icon on the desktop. Click on the icon, you'll get a file
browser showing the contents of the CD. Now look up the eject
menupoint in the (usually right-click) menu of the CD icon, and click on
it. Do you get an error message which makes sense for a
computer-ignorant user? Do you get any hint how to resolve the problem?

I don't dare to suggest an alternative to Windows using (and cursing)
friends and relatives where one can't answer yes to these questions.

That is, you have to distinguish within dumbed down interfaces, too.

Csaba
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Vulpes Velox]

On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:36:48 +0800
Erich Dollansky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Vulpes Velox wrote:
 
  Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures,
  not community ones. They will just drag the community down with
  their weight if they don't help out.
 
 This would be the real tough one.
 
 There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the 
 people between.
 
  I found the handbook to be useful in this area.
 
 Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT
 professionals for serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT
 professional has problems understanding it.
 
 Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak
 the language none IT professionals understand.
 
 The original writer sounds like being skilled enough to have
 serious try on this one if he gets the information he needs for
 this.

I also had too read up on various unix tutorials as well.

I feel the handbook could be made clearer in some areas, but I
believe it is good in general.
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Lei Sun]

After all, someone is trying to do something good for freebsd, by
making freebsd known by more and more people.

Most people are lazy, we tend to prefer immediate results rather than
a long term process and commitment. I think this is understandable.

Of course, there will be a lot of newbies coming, some of them will
stay and some of them will find it too difficult, and leave. That's
the way it is.

Same goes with linux. If it just sounds powerful, and hard for people
to get their hands dirty by just setting one up and see what it looks
like and maybe how it works, then linux wouldn't be this popular now.

You would hear that Someone has burned a linux CD and just don't have
time to install it, but linux is easy and sounds really cool and makes
people curious, and you wouldn't hear the same thing about freebsd.
Most of the none unix IT friends I have all had a EXTREMELY HARD
impression on Freebsd, and they found linux extremely easy.

That's indeed not true. It really only takes a normal person several
hours to flip through the HANDBOOK to at least know his/her way
around, and this is really as easy as linux.

But, it make sence, that people would like to see the product, before
using it or even know more about it. Much like a person would prefer
trying out a service for free before he/she decides to invest more
money and time into it.

Also, one must first be a newbie in something, then become more and
more professional while he/she is learning.

A lot of you might be good at Freebsd, but very new to something else.
Would you prefer to hear someone telling you, Hey! This is only for
Professional! There is not even a newbie version for you! So don't
slow us down by getting out of our way! That's not friendly at all,
right?

I perfectly agree that Freebsd is a serious OS from serious people,
that's why I choose freebsd :) and I would rather see freebsd be more
and more popular than linux!!! Truely!!! It is indeed a very good OS.

So let's be nice, and find ways help the new comers without disturbing
the ones, who are not interested in the easy questions, instead of
turning them away.

We all love FreeBSD, don't we?

Lei
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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Steve Bertrand]

 
 Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are 
 all generally doomed to failure.
 
 You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general 
 computer operating system product.  It is a very specific 
 product in fact.
 
 Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general.  
 BUT, do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just 
 because FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is 
 a general product.  It is not.
 
 FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people:
 
 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, 
 or in-house corporate projects.
 
 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct 
 turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is 
 under the hood.
 
 By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer 
 operating system products.  They are targeted at groups #1 
 and #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are:
 
 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a 
 problem they need to fix with a computer operating system, 
 and they really don't care if they understand how the fix 
 works as long as it works.
 
 
 This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD:
 
 You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works 
 and how computer software that runs on it works in order to 
 get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it works.
 
 Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the 
 interface to their operating systems.  Thus, an ignoramus can 
 get up and running with both of these systems, and that 
 person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant 
 of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough 
 to get the job done.  It may be a half-assed fix, but it is 
 better than nothing.
 
 FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this.  For 
 starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to 
 most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux or 
 Windows, so why mess with it?  But, most importantly, a 
 dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable 
 person, and over time becomes a tremendous liability.
 
 With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the 
 Catch-22 is old-fashioned mental elbow grease.  In short, by 
 learning a bit at a time, expanding on that, and repeating 
 the process.  It is a long slow way to get to know anything, 
 but once you get there, you really do know everything in 
 intimate detail.
 
 This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies.

Just going through this list as I do every few days and came across this
thread.

I just want to say thank you Ted, your comments made for a very decent,
informative and realistic read ;)

Steve

 
 Ted
 
 Thanks.
 
 --
 
 Fafa Hafiz Krantz
   Research Designer @ http://www.home.no/barbershop
   Enlightened @ http://www.home.no/barbershop/smart/sharon.pdf
 
 
 
 --
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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Steve Bertrand]

 On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 12:36:48 +0800
 Erich Dollansky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Hi,
  
  Vulpes Velox wrote:
  
   Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial 
 ventures, 
   not community ones. They will just drag the community down with 
   their weight if they don't help out.
  
  This would be the real tough one.
  
  There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the 
  people between.
  
   I found the handbook to be useful in this area.
  
  Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT 
 professionals 
  for serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT 
 professional has 
  problems understanding it.
  
  Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would 
 speak the 
  language none IT professionals understand.
  
  The original writer sounds like being skilled enough to 
 have serious 
  try on this one if he gets the information he needs for this.
 
 I also had too read up on various unix tutorials as well.

I would personally assume that anyone who has ventured seriously into
FreeBSD (I started with Linux for a week, then jumped right into FBSD
and now run an entire ISP with it) has had their head into several
books.

My opinion is that most who run FBSD, run it because they like it, enjoy
it and completely appreciate it's features, rock-solid reliability, and
excellent documentation (IMHO) and help networks. Most who use it to
this extent have no problem reading the books, as others have said
because they want/need to learn whats under the hood.

There have been times where I have been in a jam, and didn't RTFM before
making a post, but on the other hand, there have been times where I have
helped someone out on FBSD areas I had to research on my own time just
so I could familiarize myself with it to help them.

It's my belief that you must be serious to get a FBSD box running at
full tilt, tuned right out, but you need not be an expert to get one up
and running.

There's no way I would use a butter knife to cut down a tree (use
Windows for infrastructure), nor would I use a chainsaw to cut the
butter (use a full scale FBSD server to browse the web).

It's all in what you want and/or need. The docs are there. As it was
pointed out, you need not be a developer, but this is meant to be a
serious OS for serious people.

If one wants to learn the ways of FreeBSD, in reality, the handbook,
google and the lists are your friends. Most everyone I know who uses
FBSD document their learning and experiences, and post it on websites
for everyone to learn from (including myself). Sometimes it is clear cut
and dry, and other times (especially with new, unprecedented
procedures), you must piece-meal different peoples experiences into your
own.

My .02

Steve

 
 I feel the handbook could be made clearer in some areas, but 
 I believe it is good in general.
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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Steve Bertrand]

 After all, someone is trying to do something good for 
 freebsd, by making freebsd known by more and more people.

It's not worth getting the word out if those new people who are hearing
about it just rant and bitch that the documentation is 'no good', when
something doesn't work the first time they try it.

 Most people are lazy, we tend to prefer immediate results 
 rather than a long term process and commitment. I think this 
 is understandable.

I agree, and it falls perfectly well in with my comment above.

 Of course, there will be a lot of newbies coming, some of 
 them will stay and some of them will find it too difficult, 
 and leave. That's the way it is.

...and most likely because they are the type who don't want to learn
'how' it works, they just want it to work. Bill Gates knows this, and
counts on it. Linux is trying to make itself more 'user friendly' to
compete with Microsoft. I hope FreeBSD never tries to make itself
'simpler' to operate to gain market share. Myself, I find it easy to
operate, moreover, I can type faster than I can move the mouse and
point/click, so being able to do something in Windows or Linux rather
than at the command line is only in the eye of the beholder. (Note that
I use XP as my workstation, but I usually have 10 or 12 SSH sessions
open ;)

 Same goes with linux. If it just sounds powerful, and hard 
 for people to get their hands dirty by just setting one up 
 and see what it looks like and maybe how it works, then linux 
 wouldn't be this popular now.

Linux has come a long way from 10 years ago. It's just as easy, if not
in some cases easier than Windows to set up.

However, with sysinstall, I can get a FBSD system up in less than 8
minutes, with custom FW ruleset, online, updating with cvsup and
preparing to install a custom kernel.

No gooey crap to waste resources, nothing extra I don't want, just
straight up what I want. Sure the first couple installs may take some
time to read and find out about, but I much rather spending 20 average
per box with FreeBSD than the hour and a half to get a Window server up
and installed for Internet use for a client.

 You would hear that Someone has burned a linux CD and just 
 don't have time to install it, but linux is easy and sounds 
 really cool and makes people curious, and you wouldn't hear 
 the same thing about freebsd.
 Most of the none unix IT friends I have all had a EXTREMELY HARD
 impression on Freebsd, and they found linux extremely easy.

Sure. FreeBSD I don't think is meant to be cool and appeal to the UNIX
IT personnel. It's designed to work, and work hard. Those who spend
their work hours maintaining a large core infrastructure aren't
interested in cool. Business managers and clients are interested in
'make it work, make it work reliably without downtime'. Words like
'cool' generally don't impress them, and 'cool' generally means that I
have to respond to frequent problems, errors, crashes. My cool is less
work, less time spent so I can do more important things :)

 That's indeed not true. It really only takes a normal person 
 several hours to flip through the HANDBOOK to at least know 
 his/her way around, and this is really as easy as linux.

Agreed. I even read the FM's for new devices/purchases I make. I want to
ensure I get full value out of things that I use/buy/aquire. It's those
who buy a new camera, throw the manual out with the box as soon as it's
opened, and get angry because x feature won't work, or they can't figure
out how to do something so they bitch about it. IMHO, the handbook will
get a box set up even for a reasonable newbie.

 But, it make sence, that people would like to see the 
 product, before using it or even know more about it. Much 
 like a person would prefer trying out a service for free 
 before he/she decides to invest more money and time into it.

That's what the docs, lists and other professionals that use FBSD are
for. Myself, I'll answer any question about FBSD that I can, because so
much info was so freely given to me.

They didn't build Rome in a day, nor can you expect to get a full
picture of the usefulness of FBSD in a day either.

 Also, one must first be a newbie in something, then become 
 more and more professional while he/she is learning.

Of course. Many of my clients call themselves stupid for making a
mistake. I disagree with them. Although there are many, many incoherent
users I feel like choking sometimes, I generally tell them no one knows
everything. If one wants to learn they must educate themselves...this
goes for everything.

 A lot of you might be good at Freebsd, but very new to something else.
 Would you prefer to hear someone telling you, Hey! This is 
 only for Professional! There is not even a newbie version for 
 you! So don't slow us down by getting out of our way! That's 
 not friendly at all, right?

It's not friendly, but no one has said that. Most will say to a newbie
that it takes time, patience and RTFM'ing. It's the people who 

Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Gary Schenk]

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:
Then read one of the many FreeBSD books.  The one by Annelise Anderson
is most certainly not written for serious IT professionals.  I know
because I have read it.

As a non-serious non-IT non-professional, I keep going back to this book 
time and time again. Even after almost three years with FreeBSD I'm 
still a rookie, and her book makes sense. FreeBSD Unleashed is also 
helpful. Only in the last year or so has the handbook started to make 
sense to me. Even scarier, some man pages are readable now. Greg Lehey's 
book on the other hand is in another solar system! :-)


I replaced Win98 with FreeBSD 4.7 as a home desktop. I really should be 
using Xandros or SuSE, but I find learning FreeBSD to be interesting, 
Lord help me.


People on this list are very helpful to beginners. Especially if the 
beginner has shown she's put some effort into the problem herself.


/off-topic
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:



I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It
is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it.



People pay for Windows, not for FreeBSD.  The support structures are
totally different because of this.  If support is what hinges on getting


I am not talking of the support people get by paying for it. Just go to 
any support forum, mailing list or what ever name it has and compare the 
tone used there.


The support is done by volunteers just like here.

While people asking 'dumb' questions around FreeBSD just get a RTFM 
while the same question around Windows might gives them a lot of verbal 
abuse plus the answer. If a person wastes its time to write 'RTFM', the 
same person could also write 'RTFM at page xx' and the answer is useful.



If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into
problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here.




Why should they?  If they were paying someone for FreeBSD support that
is one thing.  Nobody is getting paid to answer questions on the mailing
list and on Usenet, if a no-knowledge person asks a question that is
answered in the manual, then it is going overboard already, to even
tell them to RTFM.  They really shouldn't be asking questions if they
haven't RTFMed.


Why do I hear people crying about the acceptance of FreeBSD in this list?

It is the atidute shown above which stops people jumping onto FreeBSD.



What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once?


Bringing a large number of ignoramuses on board who are dedicated to
continuing to be ignoramuses, does not help the FreeBSD project at
all.  It may help some people making money off servicing those people,
but otherwise they are deadweight.


Then, never complain that FreeBSD does not reach a higher market share.


You know, even raw newbies who have RTFM can help the FreeBSD project
by answering posts on the support forums with pointers to the manual!!


Yes, just let them do so. But it happens to rearely.


Proper help is in the manual, it is in my book, and in Greg Lehey's book,
and in several other books written by a number of people.  My book is


I have to take my neighbour with her Ph.D. in biology again. We can 
assume she has proven not to be a plain idiot. She got some of the book, 
looked at them for some days and said 'why should I study IT before I 
can use FreeBSD'.



I am sorry you are going to have to do better than that.  The proper
help is out there, you just have to spend a little effort looking for it.

It is out there but written in a language a none IT person has problems 
with.


The starter of this thread is trying to do something into this direction.


I can only ask why do you bother to garden in the first place?  Without
that background, you don't know why the pesticide that she recommends
works.  And next season if it doesen't work, you don't know why either.

I hope you never fall sick or have to undergo a serious surgery. As long 
as you do not understand how the whole procedure works, the doctor will 
not be able to treat you.



It's like the saying give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, teach
him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime  You just want the fish - I
want to feed myself for the rest of my life.


No, I want to make him able to catch the fish without knowledge of breeding.


Sadly, your attitude is one of the reasons that the United States is
being
run into the ground by a bunch of religious conservatives these days.
Those
people are just like you - they don't want to know anything about Stem
Cell
research, they just want to be told whether it's bad or not.

Honestly, before you knock it, you should try to understand how the world
works sometime.  It's really a better way to live.  Do you really want to


Let me put it this way. A long time ago, we call it now stone age, the 
people started to realise that a group of people shows better results if 
they specialise. The people better in hunting went hunting, the people 
better in 'farming'. Despite one group did not know how the other group 
got their kind of food, they shared it.


Erich
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Andrew L. Gould]

On Wednesday 22 June 2005 10:35 pm, Erich Dollansky wrote:
 Hi,
/--big snip--/

 Let me put it this way. A long time ago, we call it now stone age,
 the people started to realise that a group of people shows better
 results if they specialise. The people better in hunting went
 hunting, the people better in 'farming'. Despite one group did not
 know how the other group got their kind of food, they shared it.

 Erich

That's a great analogy; but I disagree with the way you've applied it.

Yes, the hunters and farmers shared the food.  That's not to say that 
the farmers wanted to use the bows and arrows, or that the hunters 
wanted to use a harvesting tool.  If a farmer chose to use a bow and 
arrow, he/she would be irresponsible not to take a safety lesson 
(RTFM).

Users taste the fruit of FreeBSD whenever they use a service hosted on a 
FreeBSD server.  Most Windows users don't care how they got the fruit.  
That's okay.  FreeBSD users are currently specialized in their 
interest in computer technology when compared to the average Windows 
user.  That's okay too.   Specialized tools serve are used by 
specialized individuals; although all may benefit indirectly.

I support better documentation.  I don't think there's any argument 
there.  The idea that FreeBSD should be usable for all levels of 
computer users, however, is like putting training wheels on a racing 
bicycle.  Any time you modify a professional tool to make it accessible 
to all, the tool loses some level of efficiency or power.  In the case 
of FreeBSD, it would also absorb valuable development resources.

All of this reminds me of a book I saw at Barnes  Noble last year:  
Bioinfomatics for Dummies.  Think about it:  does anyone on this list 
want a dummy messing with genetics?

Andrew Gould
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Andreas Rudisch]

On Mon, 2005-06-20 at 14:55 -0500, Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote:
 Hello.
 
 Thank you all for everything so far.
 
 But I am not looking for comparisons.
 
 I am looking for stuff that has been written so that people can understand.
 
 Let's say this:
 
 Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel in parallel 
 on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, allowing high priority 
 kernel tasks to preempt other kernel activity, reducing latency. This 
 includes a multi-threaded network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory 
 subsystem. With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the UFS 
 file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, permitting load 
 sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization.
 
 In the real world, that ought to sound more like:
 
 FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and multithreading. 
 This makes the kernel lock down levels of interfaces and buffers, minimizing 
 the chance of threads on different processors blocking each other, to give 
 maximum performance on multiprocessor systems.
 
 Thanks.

But then again, if you are new to computers or are not that into the
technical stuff, neither the first nor the second description would make
much sense, or is easy to understand. So I for one would stick with the
first. 

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RE: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Ted Mittelstaedt]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Fafa Hafiz
Krantz
Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features



Hello.

Thank you all for everything so far.

But I am not looking for comparisons.

I am looking for stuff that has been written so that people can 
understand.

Let's say this:

Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel 
in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, 
allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel 
activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded 
network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. 
With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the 
UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, 
permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization.

In the real world, that ought to sound more like:

FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and 
multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of 
interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on 
different processors blocking each other, to give maximum 
performance on multiprocessor systems.


Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all
generally doomed to failure.

You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer
operating system product.  It is a very specific product in fact.

Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general.  BUT,
do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because
FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general
product.  It is not.

FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people:

1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or
in-house corporate projects.

2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct
turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is
under the hood.

By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer
operating system products.  They are targeted at groups #1 and
#2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are:

3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem
they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they
really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long
as it works.


This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD:

You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works
and how computer software that runs on it works in order to
get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it
works.

Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the
interface to their operating systems.  Thus, an ignoramus
can get up and running with both of these systems, and that
person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant
of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough
to get the job done.  It may be a half-assed fix, but it is
better than nothing.

FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this.  For
starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to
most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux
or Windows, so why mess with it?  But, most importantly, a
dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person,
and over time becomes a tremendous liability.

With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is
old-fashioned mental elbow grease.  In short, by learning a bit
at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process.  It is a
long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you
really do know everything in intimate detail.

This isn't a popular thing to tell newbies.

Ted

Thanks.

--

Fafa Hafiz Krantz
  Research Designer @ http://www.home.no/barbershop
  Enlightened @ http://www.home.no/barbershop/smart/sharon.pdf



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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

Ted Mittelstaedt wrote:




Let's say this:

Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel 
in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, 
allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel 
activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded 
network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. 
With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the 
UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, 
permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization.


In the real world, that ought to sound more like:

FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and 
multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of 
interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on 
different processors blocking each other, to give maximum 
performance on multiprocessor systems.



The same old question pops up: what is the target audience.


You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer
operating system product.  It is a very specific product in fact.


What is then the difference to Windows in this case?


FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people:

FreeBSD is used by the two groups. But it is not said that it could not 
be used by the third group.



3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem
they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they
really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long
as it works.

I do not think that it the design of Windows which makes it target. It 
is the kind of support people with no knowledge get which makes it.


This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD:

You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works
and how computer software that runs on it works in order to
get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it
works.


I do not think so.

If people with no knowledge would get proper answers when they run into 
problems instead of the hint to read the manual would help a lot here.


Those people will end in your group 2 which got the system setup by 
someone else.



Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the
interface to their operating systems.  Thus, an ignoramus
can get up and running with both of these systems, and that
person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant
of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough
to get the job done.  It may be a half-assed fix, but it is
better than nothing.


What is the difference to FreeBSD if the system is running once?


FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this.  For
starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to
most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux
or Windows, so why mess with it?  But, most importantly, a
dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person,
and over time becomes a tremendous liability.

There is no need for an interface like this if the people starting with 
no computer knowledge would get proper help just to get the machine up 
and running.



With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is
old-fashioned mental elbow grease.  In short, by learning a bit
at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process.  It is a
long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you
really do know everything in intimate detail.

Let it tell me this way. I have a neighbour who has a Ph.D. in biology. 
If she would give me the same answer when it comes to gardening, I would 
stop gardening as I do not want to know the background. All I want to 
know is how I can get rid of a special kind of pest.


Erich
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Vulpes Velox]

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 01:05:32 -0700
Ted Mittelstaedt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Fafa Hafiz
 Krantz
 Sent: Monday, June 20, 2005 12:56 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Explaining FreeBSD features
 
 
 
 Hello.
 
 Thank you all for everything so far.
 
 But I am not looking for comparisons.
 
 I am looking for stuff that has been written so that people can 
 understand.
 
 Let's say this:
 
 Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel 
 in parallel on multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, 
 allowing high priority kernel tasks to preempt other kernel 
 activity, reducing latency. This includes a multi-threaded 
 network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. 
 With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the 
 UFS file system to run on multiple processors simultaneously, 
 permitting load sharing of CPU-intensive I/O optimization.
 
 In the real world, that ought to sound more like:
 
 FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and 
 multithreading. This makes the kernel lock down levels of 
 interfaces and buffers, minimizing the chance of threads on 
 different processors blocking each other, to give maximum 
 performance on multiprocessor systems.
 
 
 Fafa, I've seen these kinds of efforts before and they are all
 generally doomed to failure.
 
 You see, the problem is that FreeBSD is not a general computer
 operating system product.  It is a very specific product in fact.
 
 Now, the USES that FreeBSD can be put to are VERY general.  BUT,
 do NOT make the mistake of confusing the fact that just because
 FreeBSD can be put to general use, that somehow it is a general
 product.  It is not.
 
 FreeBSD is targeted at 2 main groups of people:
 
 1) Very knowledgeable people who are using it for personal, or
 in-house corporate projects.
 
 2) Very knowledgeable people who are using it to construct
 turnkey systems for customers who couldn't care less what is
 under the hood.
 
 By contrast, Windows and Linux are in fact, general computer
 operating system products.  They are targeted at groups #1 and
 #2, but they are also targeted at group #3 which are:
 
 3) People who barely know how to push a button who have a problem
 they need to fix with a computer operating system, and they
 really don't care if they understand how the fix works as long
 as it works.
 
 
 This gives rise to a rather serious Catch-22 with FreeBSD:
 
 You need to really understand intimately how FreeBSD works
 and how computer software that runs on it works in order to
 get it to work well enough for you to learn intimately how it
 works.

Nah, you can be willing to learn as well. FreeBSD was my first
venture in to the world of UNIX.

My choice was I found finding info on it easier than Linux and I had
some one willing to teach me.

 Windows and Linux solved this Catch-22 by dumbing-down the
 interface to their operating systems.  Thus, an ignoramus
 can get up and running with both of these systems, and that
 person can remain fat, dumb, and happy, completely ignorant
 of what he is doing, and those systems will still work enough
 to get the job done.  It may be a half-assed fix, but it is
 better than nothing.

Not in the case of FreeBSD. In the case of FreeBSD, it would be a bad
idea. It would result in a lot of badly supported users.

It can be done, but with a system based on FreeBSD, with a something
layed over it to help those people out.

Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures,
not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their
weight if they don't help out.

 FreeBSD by contrast, long ago decided not to do this.  For
 starters, if you dumbed-down the FreeBSD interface, then to
 most people FreeBSD wouldn't be any different than Linux
 or Windows, so why mess with it?  But, most importantly, a
 dumbed-down interface gets in the way of a knowledgeable person,
 and over time becomes a tremendous liability.
 
 With FreeBSD, the only way that a newbie can break the Catch-22 is
 old-fashioned mental elbow grease.  In short, by learning a bit
 at a time, expanding on that, and repeating the process.  It is a
 long slow way to get to know anything, but once you get there, you
 really do know everything in intimate detail.

I found the handbook to be useful in this area.
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

Vulpes Velox wrote:


Ignorant useless users should be supported by commercial ventures,
not community ones. They will just drag the community down with their
weight if they don't help out.


This would be the real tough one.

There should also be a way to write some kind of descripton for the 
people between.



I found the handbook to be useful in this area.


Yes, if you understand it. It is written be serious IT professionals for 
serious IT professionals. Even a serious none IT professional has 
problems understanding it.


Our problem is that we all do not know the people who would speak the 
language none IT professionals understand.


The original writer sounds like being skilled enough to have serious try 
on this one if he gets the information he needs for this.


Erich
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote:


I am curious why it's so difficult to get a simple and straight
forward list of FreeBSD's features, that normal people can understand?


There is no real answer to this question.


I am trying to write one of the largest articles ever to be published
on www.PCWorld.no -- to only say good things about FreeBSD. But I want
it clear what good things to say.


This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it?


http://www.freebsd.org/features.html is alright, but not the best.
Using super-advanced jargons, it says what they are, but not what they do.
At least not in a way normal people can understand.

FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people. Or, as I 
describe it for myself, if I would know marketing, I would not write 
software.



http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general
public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even
mention half of FreeBSD's features.


Not all applies to FreeBSD.


http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good.
I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more.


It is a starting point but a bit outdated.


Any idea, people?


Not really as I also do not know the current status of your article. I 
also have no idea what the target audience will be.


Let me give you some not to technical points for a start.

FreeBSD strongest and also its weakest point is that it is developed by 
serious people as a serious operating system who took the work of a 
serious university as their base.


This leads easily to misunderstandings when newcommers appearing at the 
scene.


The main advantage of FreeBSD is its stability. It just runs like a work 
horse.


FreeBSD follows very strict principles once set. The number of 
exceptions to be faced during operating a FreeBSD machine are pretty 
much limited.


All applications come via the ports tree and are delivered as source or 
as a binary. The user can decide on what level he/she can maintain the 
machine.


The installation from source need compilations but it does not need any 
knowledge of programming. Following the same steps for all ports, is all 
the user has to do:


cd to the directory in the ports tree
make
make install
make clean

I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they 
believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer.


I hope this will start a discussion to give you the strong points of 
FreeBSD you need for the article.


Erich
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Fafa Hafiz Krantz]

 This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it?

A couple of weeks :)

So I have a lot of time to do research.

 FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people.

Clearly its weakest point.

 Or, as I describe it for myself, if I would know marketing,
 I would not write software.

If you knew them both, your powers wouldn't know limits.

  http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/ aims more towards the general
  public, and does the job a little better. How ever they don't even
  mention half of FreeBSD's features.
 
 Not all applies to FreeBSD.

Hopefully one day they will.

  http://people.freebsd.org/~murray/bsd_flier.html is very, very good.
  I get the feeling though, that it ain't like that no more.
 
 It is a starting point but a bit outdated.

True.

I did e-mail this Murray, he told me he was working on a new one.

  Any idea, people?
 
 Not really as I also do not know the current status of your 
 article. I also have no idea what the target audience will be.

Actually, it's not only for the article.

I also want to create an introductory report where FreeBSD meets
the real life, and try to present it in the same professional
manner that Apple presents their Mac OS X.

Maybe some can even be used as wording for FreeBSD's new website,
which they desperately need.

 Let me give you some not to technical points for a start.
 
 FreeBSD strongest and also its weakest point is that it is 
 developed by serious people as a serious operating system who took 
 the work of a serious university as their base.
 
 This leads easily to misunderstandings when newcommers appearing at the scene.
 
 The main advantage of FreeBSD is its stability. It just runs like a 
 work horse.
 
 FreeBSD follows very strict principles once set. The number of 
 exceptions to be faced during operating a FreeBSD machine are 
 pretty much limited.
 
 All applications come via the ports tree and are delivered as 
 source or as a binary. The user can decide on what level he/she can 
 maintain the machine.
 
 The installation from source need compilations but it does not need 
 any knowledge of programming. Following the same steps for all 
 ports, is all the user has to do:
 
 cd to the directory in the ports tree
 make
 make install
 make clean
 
 I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they 
 believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer.

Yeah I know a lot of people like that :)

 I hope this will start a discussion to give you the strong points 
 of FreeBSD you need for the article.

Indeed, Erich.

Your kind gesture and true words have been very helpful.

Thank you!

--

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  Research Designer @ http://www.bleed.no


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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Karel Bosschaart]

Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote:

snip
I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they 
believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer.


Yeah I know a lot of people like that :)


For those people, the pcbsd project www.pcbsd.org might be an option. I 
didn't try it myself (yet), but from their website it looks like a 
promising approach.


Karel.

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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Roger 'Rocky' Vetterberg]

Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote:
*snip*

FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people.



Clearly its weakest point.


Once again, that depends on your audience. If you ask me, its one 
of FreeBSD's strongest points.
Im one of those technical people, and the main reason I like 
BSD is that its not dumbed down. It does require atleast a 
minimal amount of clue, and it does not take for granted that the 
user is an idiot.


--
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Erich Dollansky]

Hi,

Fafa Hafiz Krantz wrote:

This sounds good. How much time is left for you to write it?



A couple of weeks :)

So I have a lot of time to do research.

You could subscribe to more technical lists to see how help is done and 
what kind of problems people face with a none-technical background.



FreeBSD is a typical system driven by technical people.


Clearly its weakest point.


It is also its strongest point.

FreeBSD has a very clear development paradigma. It is far off the 
chaotic system Linux has.


Actually, it's not only for the article.

I also want to create an introductory report where FreeBSD meets
the real life, and try to present it in the same professional
manner that Apple presents their Mac OS X.


This would be very helpful for FreeBSD.


Maybe some can even be used as wording for FreeBSD's new website,
which they desperately need.


Here we are again.

But do not forget one thing. This technical way of doing things have to 
stay as it also presents FreeBSD's strongest point.


I know some people who were to afraid to move to FreeBSD as they 
believed installing from source is equal to being a programmer.



Yeah I know a lot of people like that :)


They would need two things:

a very simple discription of doing things, without any ifs.

a very clear message that it does not have to be Microsoft software.

Erich
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Re: Explaining FreeBSD features

[Fafa Hafiz Krantz]

Hello.

Thank you all for everything so far.

But I am not looking for comparisons.

I am looking for stuff that has been written so that people can understand.

Let's say this:

Multi-threaded SMP architecture capable of executing the kernel in parallel on 
multiple processors, and with kernel preemption, allowing high priority kernel 
tasks to preempt other kernel activity, reducing latency. This includes a 
multi-threaded network stack and a multi-threaded virtual memory subsystem. 
With FreeBSD 6.x, support for a fully parallel VFS allows the UFS file system 
to run on multiple processors simultaneously, permitting load sharing of 
CPU-intensive I/O optimization.

In the real world, that ought to sound more like:

FreeBSD includes support for symmetric multiprocessing and multithreading. This 
makes the kernel lock down levels of interfaces and buffers, minimizing the 
chance of threads on different processors blocking each other, to give maximum 
performance on multiprocessor systems.

Thanks.

--

Fafa Hafiz Krantz
  Research Designer @ http://www.home.no/barbershop
  Enlightened @ http://www.home.no/barbershop/smart/sharon.pdf



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