RE: New Users Learning FreeBSD
There will all ways to the party line drawn between the developers and the users. Developers want total freedom about how to install and config while the users wany automated no question asked install. If FBSD was an commercial product, the developers world would never be seen by the customers. There is no question that the sysinstall process is not new-be friendly. Heck it's not even user friendly to experienced users. FBSD all ready has an division point called the development code branch for the developers and the stable code branch for the user community. The stable branch can be considered akin to an commercial product release version. The problem is the development total freedom install method is not really appropriate to the technical knowledge level of the general user community and this division between communities has always gone in favor of the developers. This will never change as long as developers are in control for it's their nature to be blind to the needs of the users of the finished results of their labor. This is even evident in the tone and depth of the documentation of the man pages and the handbook. Every thing is geared to the documentation reference needs of the developer and technical knowledgeable user. There really is no provisions for the people new to FBSD. They are kind of just left on the sidelines and have to dig through a lot of old outdated public internet how-to's, man pages which are so cryptic they are next to useless, and the handbook which is written in an style that is very hard to comprehend, the poor new user has to learn by trial and error. We can all see that this situation is almost designed on purpose to make the new user pay their dues before they can join the FBSD developers club. All this does is inhibits the growth that FBSD could really experience. An good compromise which services the wants and needs of both communities would be to add an newbe user-friendly install process on stable branch only. A step-by-step instructional install guide that explains how the system is designed to be used would go a very long way to speeding up the learning process of the newbe and go an long way to removing the frustration that we see voiced all the time in this questions list. Just my general observation's and comments based on what I have seen and read in the list. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chuck McManis Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2004 1:40 PM To: Chuck Swiger Cc: FreeBSD Mailing list Subject: Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD At 06:00 AM 3/6/2004, Chuck Swiger wrote: >Chuck McManis wrote: >>To put it in perspective, the best way to start USING FreeBSD as opposed >>to acquiring it to develop with, is probably to by an Apple machine with >>OS-X installed. All the integration is handled for you. It pains me that >>there isn't an organization of Apple's caliber providing a complete >>FreeBSD workstation product that I could load on any machine with a >>simple install. > >Apple has some advantages when writing an OS to run on their own hardware; >FreeBSD needs to deal with a much wider variation of hardware than Apple >does in terms of both quality and complexity. Well until 5.x the FreeBSD problem was no more difficult than the one Microsoft dealt with :-) I agree that if you limit supported configs it makes install easier. >I use both MacOS X and FreeBSD on a daily basis; they aren't the same OS >nor do they make although knowledge of one is often useful on the >other. OS X auto-defaults to installing everything into a single HFS+ >partition, which is ideal only in the sense that such an installation >avoids having the user make a decision about drive partitioning. That is a good example of a "user centric choice." Most application users (non-developers) derive little benefit from having multiple file systems. >That being said, my point is not to disagree with you so much as to say >that if you think the FreeBSD install should behave differently, you've >got the sources: make a few changes to streamline the process and see >whether other people like them. And my point was that the primary population of people who would have an opinion would be developers who violently disagree that there should be an "easy" or "dumbed down" install process. Did I mention that I also was the manager (acting) for the group that owned "Sun Install" at Sun 15 years ago ? (God that makes me feel old :-) The current install program has many external similarities to that one. I've heard all of the arguments, no one at Sun would tolerate an "EZ" installer and I doubt hardly anyone here would as well. Part of the problem is that interaction between installation and the need to have the developers provide hooks for it. The package system is quite good
Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD
At 06:00 AM 3/6/2004, Chuck Swiger wrote: Chuck McManis wrote: To put it in perspective, the best way to start USING FreeBSD as opposed to acquiring it to develop with, is probably to by an Apple machine with OS-X installed. All the integration is handled for you. It pains me that there isn't an organization of Apple's caliber providing a complete FreeBSD workstation product that I could load on any machine with a simple install. Apple has some advantages when writing an OS to run on their own hardware; FreeBSD needs to deal with a much wider variation of hardware than Apple does in terms of both quality and complexity. Well until 5.x the FreeBSD problem was no more difficult than the one Microsoft dealt with :-) I agree that if you limit supported configs it makes install easier. I use both MacOS X and FreeBSD on a daily basis; they aren't the same OS nor do they make although knowledge of one is often useful on the other. OS X auto-defaults to installing everything into a single HFS+ partition, which is ideal only in the sense that such an installation avoids having the user make a decision about drive partitioning. That is a good example of a "user centric choice." Most application users (non-developers) derive little benefit from having multiple file systems. That being said, my point is not to disagree with you so much as to say that if you think the FreeBSD install should behave differently, you've got the sources: make a few changes to streamline the process and see whether other people like them. And my point was that the primary population of people who would have an opinion would be developers who violently disagree that there should be an "easy" or "dumbed down" install process. Did I mention that I also was the manager (acting) for the group that owned "Sun Install" at Sun 15 years ago ? (God that makes me feel old :-) The current install program has many external similarities to that one. I've heard all of the arguments, no one at Sun would tolerate an "EZ" installer and I doubt hardly anyone here would as well. Part of the problem is that interaction between installation and the need to have the developers provide hooks for it. The package system is quite good and frankly I think passes muster for both newbie/app user/ and developer alike. The XFree86 configuration/install is pretty horrific if you don't know much about computers (asking for the chip used in the video card? please!) My observation is that this is the sort of battle/change that cannot be manifested in an open source community. If you're familiar with the Cathedral and the Bazaar paper, its impossible to get everyone in the Bazaar to be quiet so that one person might speak to everyone at once. Conversely its impossible in the open source model to have one requirement impart requirements on everyone else. It just isn't in the nature of the community to accept such a constraint, and in parts of the community the hint of something like that generates huge antibodies. --Chuck ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD
Chuck McManis wrote: To put it in perspective, the best way to start USING FreeBSD as opposed to acquiring it to develop with, is probably to by an Apple machine with OS-X installed. All the integration is handled for you. It pains me that there isn't an organization of Apple's caliber providing a complete FreeBSD workstation product that I could load on any machine with a simple install. Apple has some advantages when writing an OS to run on their own hardware; FreeBSD needs to deal with a much wider variation of hardware than Apple does in terms of both quality and complexity. I use both MacOS X and FreeBSD on a daily basis; they aren't the same OS nor do they make although knowledge of one is often useful on the other. OS X auto-defaults to installing everything into a single HFS+ partition, which is ideal only in the sense that such an installation avoids having the user make a decision about drive partitioning. That being said, my point is not to disagree with you so much as to say that if you think the FreeBSD install should behave differently, you've got the sources: make a few changes to streamline the process and see whether other people like them. -- -Chuck ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD
Hello, Sorry, don't have all of the original message... I think the newbie you are helping would at first find mandrake more informative. It would let them see all the different parts of a unix type OS. Perhaps a store bought box containing useful books for them. Then maybe a year from now, you can install freebsd. That way you won't be turned off yourself by answering so many little questions. If it turns out they don't like it. Their will be less time lost... Pete new DIM version coming out soon(php & mysql instant messenger) http://dim.whorules.com could use a little support...:) > I am curious what some newbies experiences were with FreeBSD who > have have no unix experience before. I have someone that I might be > setting up a unix workstation of some kind for and I'm debating > whether I should use FreeBSD or some Linux distro like mandrake or > debian. I will be there most of the time to help if needed as this > is for work and will not be his home desktop, at least not yet. He > only have some experience with using dos and windoze, but he does > have some technical background with computers. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD
At 12:42 PM 3/6/2004, Joshua Lokken wrote: It doesn't seem like a splash screen can really tell you much about the quality of a piece of software or an OS. No it can't, and for end users its all they care about. Which is "how long before I can start using this thing?" To put it in perspective, the best way to start USING FreeBSD as opposed to acquiring it to develop with, is probably to by an Apple machine with OS-X installed. All the integration is handled for you. It pains me that there isn't an organization of Apple's caliber providing a complete FreeBSD workstation product that I could load on any machine with a simple install. --Chuck ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD
* Charles McManis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [2004-03-06 11:48]: > My less than complimentary thought is that they all suck, but that's only > because 99% of the developers who are writing code for *Linux/*BSD don't > really care about the "new user experience." They care about whatever it is > they are developing. > > Thus the difference between say "standard install" from a FreeBSD distro CD > and sticking a Windows XP install CD into your computer is vastly different > in favor of the Microsoft product. OTOH, this is a good example of why I was initially attracted to FreeBSD. I would much rather know just what's going on during an installation than knowing only that "Installation will complete in 37 minutes..." When I see that, my first thought is, 'what the heck could possibly be taking 37 minutes?' But, of course, I can't find out. All I get are repeating messages about how Windows XP is going to revolutionize my desktop experience. What is that? No, to most people, ncurses isn't as pretty as a Windows GUI, but give me sysinstall anyday. > In a weird and scary way I helped contribute to this because I worked at Sun > back in the day when Sun was doing a 386 based workstation and the folks who > worked in Chelmsford were trying to put a much better "face" on SunOS > (4.0.2). Like other people in the systems group I was fairly disparaging > about "gratuitous changes" to hide unnecessary things from the user (Sun East > had a splash screen with a "thermometer" display like you see in Win9x/NT/XP > these days. I didn't realize just how ahead of the game they were. I look > back today and realize I made a big mistake by not being more supportive of > their efforts. It doesn't seem like a splash screen can really tell you much about the quality of a piece of software or an OS. > To your direct question, I think newbies should install something tha someone > they know has already installed and become experienced on. Otherwise the > initial frustration of not being to get anywhere until it "clicks" can really OTOH, the initial frustration may just drive you to read the manual, a good idea when starting off with any piece of technology. My newbie experience has been (while frustrating at times) supremely rewarding due to the hard work of the folks that have put together the FreeBSD documentation, official and otherwise. The folks here at questions are extremely helpful, too. Another resource that makes my newbie experience a positive one. > turn them off to the thought of Open Source based systems. A friend of mine, > an engineer, spent a really rough day trying to get FreeBSD running on his > laptop. Debian Linux however came right up. I've been more successful getting > NetBSD and FreeBSD running, but I've got a BSD background so don't count as a > "newbie" so much (grumpy old fart perhaps, but not a newbie :-) > > --Chuck Yes, I would agree that FreeBSD is not for the faint- of-heart, but it's also really not that 'difficult' to use. Again, some reading is NECESSARY. If you want an absolute lack-of-effort install, then yes, perhaps Windows XP is a good choice of OS, however, if you're curious about FreeBSD, which the OP obviously is, then by all means, jump on in! The water's great! > On Friday 05 March 2004 00:16, Loren M. Lang wrote: > > I am curious what some newbies experiences were with FreeBSD who have > > have no unix experience before. I have someone that I might be setting > > up a unix workstation of some kind for and I'm debating whether I should > > use FreeBSD or some Linux distro like mandrake or debian. I will be > > there most of the time to help if needed as this is for work and will > > not be his home desktop, at least not yet. He only have some experience > > with using dos and windoze, but he does have some technical background > > with computers. -- Joshua There's another way to survive. Mutual trust -- and help. -- Kirk, "Day of the Dove", stardate unknown ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD
My less than complimentary thought is that they all suck, but that's only because 99% of the developers who are writing code for *Linux/*BSD don't really care about the "new user experience." They care about whatever it is they are developing. Thus the difference between say "standard install" from a FreeBSD distro CD and sticking a Windows XP install CD into your computer is vastly different in favor of the Microsoft product. In a weird and scary way I helped contribute to this because I worked at Sun back in the day when Sun was doing a 386 based workstation and the folks who worked in Chelmsford were trying to put a much better "face" on SunOS (4.0.2). Like other people in the systems group I was fairly disparaging about "gratuitous changes" to hide unnecessary things from the user (Sun East had a splash screen with a "thermometer" display like you see in Win9x/NT/XP these days. I didn't realize just how ahead of the game they were. I look back today and realize I made a big mistake by not being more supportive of their efforts. To your direct question, I think newbies should install something tha someone they know has already installed and become experienced on. Otherwise the initial frustration of not being to get anywhere until it "clicks" can really turn them off to the thought of Open Source based systems. A friend of mine, an engineer, spent a really rough day trying to get FreeBSD running on his laptop. Debian Linux however came right up. I've been more successful getting NetBSD and FreeBSD running, but I've got a BSD background so don't count as a "newbie" so much (grumpy old fart perhaps, but not a newbie :-) --Chuck On Friday 05 March 2004 00:16, Loren M. Lang wrote: > I am curious what some newbies experiences were with FreeBSD who have > have no unix experience before. I have someone that I might be setting > up a unix workstation of some kind for and I'm debating whether I should > use FreeBSD or some Linux distro like mandrake or debian. I will be > there most of the time to help if needed as this is for work and will > not be his home desktop, at least not yet. He only have some experience > with using dos and windoze, but he does have some technical background > with computers. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
RE: New Users Learning FreeBSD
You know, Every OS is 'difficult' to learn. However the freebsd handbooks and other docs , on the site are very very informative which can tell you whatever you want, and a good FAQ And ofcourse We are there to help you (Questions mailing list, and the others ;)) Cheers -- Kind regards, Remko Lodder Elvandar.org/DSINet.org www.mostly-harmless.nl Dutch community for helping newcomers on the hackerscene mrtg.grunn.org Dutch mirror of MRTG -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Vulpes Velox Verzonden: vrijdag 5 maart 2004 15:55 Aan: Loren M. Lang CC: FreeBSD Mailing list Onderwerp: Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:16:09 -0800 "Loren M. Lang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am curious what some newbies experiences were with FreeBSD who > have have no unix experience before. I have someone that I might be > setting up a unix workstation of some kind for and I'm debating > whether I should use FreeBSD or some Linux distro like mandrake or > debian. I will be there most of the time to help if needed as this > is for work and will not be his home desktop, at least not yet. He > only have some experience with using dos and windoze, but he does > have some technical background with computers. FreeBSD was my the first UNIX like system I've ever used... I found the documentation to be very useful. As long as your willing to read, it is easy :) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 00:16:09 -0800 "Loren M. Lang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am curious what some newbies experiences were with FreeBSD who > have have no unix experience before. I have someone that I might be > setting up a unix workstation of some kind for and I'm debating > whether I should use FreeBSD or some Linux distro like mandrake or > debian. I will be there most of the time to help if needed as this > is for work and will not be his home desktop, at least not yet. He > only have some experience with using dos and windoze, but he does > have some technical background with computers. FreeBSD was my the first UNIX like system I've ever used... I found the documentation to be very useful. As long as your willing to read, it is easy :) ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
Re: New Users Learning FreeBSD
On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 6:16 pm, Loren M. Lang wrote: > I am curious what some newbies experiences were with FreeBSD who > have have no unix experience before. I have someone that I might > be setting up a unix workstation of some kind for and I'm debating > whether I should use FreeBSD or some Linux distro like mandrake or > debian. I will be there most of the time to help if needed as this > is for work and will not be his home desktop, at least not yet. He > only have some experience with using dos and windoze, but he does > have some technical background with computers. This is my opinion. Your opinion and mileage may vary. I dont think that something like mandrake is easier to use than freebsd. They use the same applications and share the same window managers so if you do a good enough job of setting up freebsd it should be functionally the same or better than any linux distro. As far as maintaining the system what could be easier than the freebsd upgrade process? For adding software the ports system is dead simple. As far as using unix, with both of them he is going to be on a learning curve if all he has known is windows. I would say that the freebsd documentation is going to be of great help here. You may wish to give him a book on freebsd to help. I found Absolute BSD an excellent book that really helped me get to know the basics of freebsd. If freebsd is what you know and are using on your machine it will be easier for you management wise as you are only worrying about 1 os not 2. Your friend will also recieve better support from you if it is something that you are comfortable with and are using yourself. After using both I have personally found freebsd easier to use than linux. ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
