Re: Electricity bill - OT
On 02/08/05 11:17 PM, Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC sat at the `puter and typed: We are not talking about phones. Yes, but are we still talking about FreeBSD? -- Louis LeBlanc FreeBSD-at-keyslapper-DOT-net Fully Funded Hobbyist, KeySlapper Extrordinaire :) Please send off-list email to: leblanc at keyslapper d.t net Key fingerprint = C5E7 4762 F071 CE3B ED51 4FB8 AF85 A2FE 80C8 D9A2 love, n.: When, if asked to choose between your lover and happiness, you'd skip happiness in a heartbeat. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Electricity bill - OT
Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [050208 15:29]: A lot of new-built houses in the US are installing continuous circulation systems for hot water, which greatly reduces the time the HW heater is running, since when you turn on the hot water, you get instantaneous hot water and don't have to run a ton of water before it gets hot, which reduces the amount of HW wasted. Also, the new tankless HW heaters look interesting... I run my computers all the time, but shut down the ones I rarely use. So my G4 and G5 are on all the time (unless I leave the house for an Obviously you need to run your hot water system through the servers. Isn't the new G5 watercooled? - d. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Electricity bill - OT
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:29 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Electricity bill - OT A lot of new-built houses in the US are installing continuous circulation systems for hot water, which greatly reduces the time the HW heater is running, since when you turn on the hot water, you get instantaneous hot water and don't have to run a ton of water before it gets hot, which reduces the amount of HW wasted. This is a gimmick built to sell houses, a cool one, but only in hot climates does it make much difference. In cooler climates the heat from the standing water in the pipes just makes the furnace run less, thus the savings are a wash. Also, the new tankless HW heaters look interesting... those have been around for at least 20 years. As most of them are electric, not natural gas, your going to pay more money for heating water with a bunch of those than with a central gas water heater. Ted ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Electricity bill - OT
On Feb 8, 2005, at 4:19 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:29 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Electricity bill - OT A lot of new-built houses in the US are installing continuous circulation systems for hot water, which greatly reduces the time the HW heater is running, since when you turn on the hot water, you get instantaneous hot water and don't have to run a ton of water before it gets hot, which reduces the amount of HW wasted. This is a gimmick built to sell houses, a cool one, but only in hot climates does it make much difference. In cooler climates the heat from the standing water in the pipes just makes the furnace run less, thus the savings are a wash. That does not make sense. The savings is in running the hot water heater less. Houses that care about energy efficiency have the hot water pipes insulated anyway so it would not help in cooler climes. The goal is to run the hot water heater less, which you achieve when you constantly circulate the hot water through the hot water pipes, instead of letting it get cold and have to run a ton when you need a lot of water. Also, the new tankless HW heaters look interesting... those have been around for at least 20 years. As most of them are electric, not natural gas, your going to pay more money for heating water with a bunch of those than with a central gas water heater. The ones I have seen, the newer models, are GAS and are very efficient. Maybe you need to get out more? Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Electricity bill - OT
On Feb 8, 2005, at 10:54 AM, Henry Miller wrote: On 2/8/2005 at 10:30 Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC wrote: On Feb 8, 2005, at 4:19 AM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:29 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Electricity bill - OT A lot of new-built houses in the US are installing continuous circulation systems for hot water, which greatly reduces the time the HW heater is running, since when you turn on the hot water, you get instantaneous hot water and don't have to run a ton of water before it gets hot, which reduces the amount of HW wasted. This is a gimmick built to sell houses, a cool one, but only in hot climates does it make much difference. In cooler climates the heat from the standing water in the pipes just makes the furnace run less, thus the savings are a wash. That does not make sense. The savings is in running the hot water heater less. Houses that care about energy efficiency have the hot water pipes insulated anyway so it would not help in cooler climes. The goal is to run the hot water heater less, which you achieve when you constantly circulate the hot water through the hot water pipes, instead of letting it get cold and have to run a ton when you need a lot of water. That does not make sense. IF the pipes were perfectly insulated there would be no need for this loop because the water in the pipes would be hot. However there is no perfect insulation, so you keep the water in the pipes warm by re-circulating it. Each time water goes through the pipes it loses a little heat, which the water heater then has to make up for. So these loops waste energy, but it is considered worth it because you get hot water without having to wait. The data I saw a year or two ago showed that these were more energy efficient than the standard model of waiting for a minute or two for the hot water to purge the colder water from the pipes. It has added benefits, and the benefits may be related to this (ie, constantly circulating water means you run it less which may be where the savings come in). I do not have the data in front of me now, but it was an interesting proposition. And more energy efficient. Not a gimmick. Also, the new tankless HW heaters look interesting... those have been around for at least 20 years. As most of them are electric, not natural gas, your going to pay more money for heating water with a bunch of those than with a central gas water heater. The ones I have seen, the newer models, are GAS and are very efficient. Maybe you need to get out more? I've seen both types. Both have been around for 20 years. Computers have been around about 50 years, but to compare todays computers to those of 50 years go is ridiculous. Do you not think that mayb e hot water technology has advanced some in 20 years? Electric ones seem more common, but to replace a tank type water heater you need 80 amp service to it, which is difficult to work with so few people have or use them. I was specifically refering to new technology, I believe gas based, tankless water heaters that are more energy efficient and can lower your energy needs. To compare this to 20 year old technology is foolish. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Electricity bill - OT
On Tue, 8 Feb 2005, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Sent: Monday, February 07, 2005 8:29 PM To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Electricity bill - OT Also, the new tankless HW heaters look interesting... those have been around for at least 20 years. We had one when I was in high school 30 years ago. As most of them are electric, not natural gas, This was oil-fired, being New England. your going to pay more money for heating water with a bunch of those than with a central gas water heater. As with any technical question, the true answer is it depends. I hear hot water is pretty reasonably priced in Iceland. -- Chris Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** [ Busy Expunging | ] ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Electricity bill - OT
My apologies to posting to this to the list, but I cannot sit by and let such a crock of misinformation pass without comment. It will be my last post on this topic here. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chad Leigh -- Shire.Net LLC Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2005 10:16 AM To: Henry Miller Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org; Ted Mittelstaedt Subject: Re: Electricity bill - OT This is a gimmick built to sell houses, a cool one, but only in hot climates does it make much difference. In cooler climates the heat from the standing water in the pipes just makes the furnace run less, thus the savings are a wash. That does not make sense. The savings is in running the hot water heater less. No. The savings is in dumping heat into the atmosphere at a slower rate of speed. If your water pipes are insulated then the heat that passes out of them into the interior of the house does so at a slower rate. If the house is insulated then the heat from the interior of the house (some of which is heat that comes from the water pipes) will be lost more slowly. Houses that care about energy efficiency have the hot water pipes insulated anyway so it would not help in cooler climes. That is not true. All insulation does is reduce the speed at which the heat is lost, it does not stop it. Over a 24 hour period a hot water pipe will cool down to room temp. Without insulation it may take an hour. With insulation it may take 10 hours. But it will lose the heat. And even if the insulation is perfect, the pipe is connected to taps at the sink and such that are not insulated and will act as heat sinks and draw the heat out of the pipes. The goal is to run the hot water heater less, which you achieve when you constantly circulate the hot water through the hot water pipes, instead of letting it get cold and have to run a ton when you need a lot of water. That does not make sense. IF the pipes were perfectly insulated there would be no need for this loop because the water in the pipes would be hot. However there is no perfect insulation, so you keep the water in the pipes warm by re-circulating it. Each time water goes through the pipes it loses a little heat, which the water heater then has to make up for. So these loops waste energy, but it is considered worth it because you get hot water without having to wait. The data I saw a year or two ago showed that these were more energy efficient than the standard model of waiting for a minute or two for the hot water to purge the colder water from the pipes. The data you are looking at was almost certainly from the vendor of the recirculating system which is going to setup a test skewed to show their product in the best light. For example use insulated pipes in the recirculating system and non-insulated pipes in the standing water system. Or raise the water temp 10 degrees in the standard house - hotter pipes lose heat faster because the thermal difference is higher. Another thing is that a lot of these systems are going to flexible plastic piping that use friction quick disconnects (so any moron can put it together) The plastic is supposedly rated for 50 years or so, yadda yadda. Such a system is going to lose heat more slowly than a copper pipe solution because plastic is a poorer thermal conductor than copper (remember they make radiators out of brass) all other things being equal. If all things are equal, a recirculating system is going to be a worse system than a non-recirculating system. The reason is that for each foot of water pipe in the system there is a certain amount of heat lost. If you insulate then the heat loss is less - but it still exists. A recirculating system has more pipe and it keeps the pipe hotter so the thermal difference means the entire system loses heat faster. Think of it this way - you have 50 feet from the shower and the water heater. In a standing water system this is charged with 2 gallons of hot water. When the 50 feet of pipe is at rest, the 2 gallons in it lose 10 degrees an hour. You have your water heater at 110 degrees and your room temp at 70 degrees. When you turn off the shower it takes 4 hours to cool down to room temp. After that time the water loses no heat. So, in effect your dumping heat for 4 hours from the pipes. When you go to take a shower 24 hours later, you have to dump 2 gallons of cold water from the shower before it's warm. In a recirculating system since you have a return pipe you have 100 feet of pipe. (50 foot out, and 50 foot back) The water in the pipe is kept at 110 degrees. When you take a shower you can get in immediately without having to dump the 2 gallons of hot water that cooled down to 70 degrees. But, wait. That 100 feet of pipe has been maintained at 110 for 24 hours. Like the other system it is losing heat at the same rate - 10 degrees an hour. (actually faster
Re: Electricity bill - OT
On Feb 8, 2005, at 11:02 PM, Ted Mittelstaedt wrote: The Bosch AquaStar line is rated at a maximum efficiency of .66 - .78 energy factor, here is the link: http://www.controlledenergy.com/html/aquastar/design_features.html The tanked units on this page range from .62 to .65 energy factor http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topwater.htm This is not a particularly large difference. The .05 or so difference of the tanked models is simply due to the fact that since they have hot water tanks, those tanks lose heat, whereas a point-of-use model has no heat loss except when it's in operation. But this has to be offset by the increased cost of manufacturing several of these devices instead of just 1 heater, the increased maintainence costs because now you have many things that can break down instead of just one, and you have to run gas piping all over the place, and you have to put in an exhaust vent for each unit. You are obviously behind the times, Ted. Here is one that is tankless and only requires one per house (or one per tanked unit replaced). I just found this from googling and have no personal experience with it. It is electric. http://www.gotankless.com/faq_1.html Where the savings comes in is that they are typically used in locations where there are very low infrequent usage of water. And in those situations they save a huge amount of money. But in the typical 2 parent, 2.5 child single family home the point-of-use models save very little. wrong. see above To compare this to 20 year old technology is foolish. Not every industry has technological advances at the rate of the computer industry. Consider that you could take a 100-year-old telephone set and plug it into the telephone network today, and it would still work. We are not talking about phones. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Electricity bill - OT
On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 17:01 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: I don't know where the rest is going, but I suspect that an aging electric water heater is consuming more than all the computer equipment combined. I put a timer on my hot water heater and only run it a couple of hours per day. Saved about $30 per month. Of course, YMMV, I live in Hawai`i. Robert ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Electricity bill - OT
On Feb 7, 2005, at 2:14 PM, Robert Marella wrote: On Mon, 2005-02-07 at 17:01 +0100, Anthony Atkielski wrote: I don't know where the rest is going, but I suspect that an aging electric water heater is consuming more than all the computer equipment combined. I put a timer on my hot water heater and only run it a couple of hours per day. Saved about $30 per month. Of course, YMMV, I live in Hawai`i. A lot of new-built houses in the US are installing continuous circulation systems for hot water, which greatly reduces the time the HW heater is running, since when you turn on the hot water, you get instantaneous hot water and don't have to run a ton of water before it gets hot, which reduces the amount of HW wasted. Also, the new tankless HW heaters look interesting... I run my computers all the time, but shut down the ones I rarely use. So my G4 and G5 are on all the time (unless I leave the house for an extended period) while the AMD (Windows :-( ) is off 99% of the month. Currently have a dual opteron FreeBSD system in the basement being configured, also left on for longer periods, but it is leaving to go to its home downtown in a day or too.. Chad ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
