[sterl...@camdensoftware.com: Re: freebsd - for the win]

[Chip Camden]

- Forwarded message from Chip Camden  -

On Jun 12 2010 18:39, Chad Perrin wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 01:12:55PM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> > 
> > Call me fatalistic, but I think there is a direct relationship between
> > FreeBSD's high quality and it's lack of popularity.  If it catered to the
> > common herd, its compromises would be many.
> 
> I believe there is such a relationship, too.  I think the obvious way to
> interpret this recognition of the relationship is as a causal
> relationship where lack of popularity is what (helps/makes) FreeBSD
> maintain higher quality, but I think that's mostly the wrong way around.
> 
> Rather, it is the focus on quality over quantity that keeps it
> "unpopular" (relative to other OSes, anyway).  I also believe that is the
> correct decision, without reservation.  There are things that could be
> done to improve FreeBSD's suitability and attractiveness to a wider
> audience without sacrificing that focus on quality at all -- that could,
> in fact, improve that attractiveness while serving the focus in quality.
> Such things tend to get neglected, though, and I think it is in part
> because of a negative reaction to the idea that populism involves
> sacrifices of quality.
> 
> Popularity, per se, does not result in poorer quality.  Populism,
> however, does -- and both greater popularity *and* a desire for greater
> popularity can create populism.  Note that I'm using the term "populism"
> in a pejorative, apolitical sense, and not in the sense of advocacy for
> the rights of the people, et cetera.
> 
> Anyway . . . for my OS of choice (FreeBSD at the moment), I'd much rather
> err on the side of elitism and quality than on that of egalitarianism and
> quantity.  I just find the occasional statement (which I do *not* think
> is what you were saying) that we should actively *avoid* popularity for
> the sake of quality quite annoying.  I just find the occasional statement
> (which I do *not* think is what you were saying) that we should actively
> *avoid* popularity for the sake of quality . . . well, I find it quite
> annoying.
> 
> -- 
> Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]

I've become an advocate for FreeBSD -- I'd like to see many more people
using it.  But I have no illusions that it will ever reach the vast
majority of computer users without being wrapped in a candy coating like
OS/X.  The real audience, I think, are the thousands of developers who
could appreciate a system like FreeBSD but who have never been
introduced to it.

Sorry, meant to reply to the list.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com | http://chipsquips.com

- End forwarded message -

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com | http://chipsquips.com
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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Chip Camden]

On Jun 13 2010 09:24, Matthew Seaman wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 13/06/2010 01:49:39, Chad Perrin wrote:
> > What I *do* find to be of value, however, is improving the installation
> > process so that it is clearer what is going on at each step and improving
> > the efficiency of it without damaging its flexibility.  I don't have any
> > problem with making it easier for a new user to understand and use, as
> > long as it doesn't interfere with the suitability for experts who don't
> > care about whooshing noises, 3D animations, "helpful" cartoon characters,
> > and the ability to use a mouse where it's not really needed.  In fact, I
> > think the world would be a better place if more people used FreeBSD,
> > almost regardless of their levels of technical expertise -- as long as
> > the OS doesn't start catering to their demands for Clippy and spinning
> > logos that take three minutes to load.
> 
> Exactly my thinking.  Style vs substance -- all the style in the world
> won't help you one bit unless it's backed by real substance.
> Unfortunately far too few people are capable of seeing through the
> surface gloss of style to understand the substance beneath.  Style also
> tends to be rather in the eye of the beholder -- one persons' "exciting
> and trendy" is another's "annoying and garish"; whereas substance is
> universal.
> 
> While most FreeBSD types may not have much use for glitz and glitter,
> still, FreeBSD does have it's own aesthetic.  It's minimal, and spare
> and it says "We're not going to pretend that this isn't complicated or
> difficult.  Effort brings reward."  This is something I find incredibly
> attractive; even after more than 10 years it is still refreshing.
> 
>   Cheers,
> 
>   Matthew
> 

The beauty of FreeBSD (and the Unix philosophy in general) is that
simplicity is systemic.  Things work together because they're aligned 
consistently
and without fluff.

I'm certainly in favor of anything that helps the newbie (I'm still a
newbie on a lot of fronts myself) without damaging that simple
consistency.

The trap into which so-called "user-friendly" systems often fall is the
idea that we can help make things simpler for the user by just tacking on
some wizard or UI that will lead them through the process without making
them think about what they're doing.  Those specialized, tacked on
"helpers" end up creating a nightmare of inconsistent time-wasters that
don't provide access to all available options and in the end just obscure
the problem rather than simplifying it.

A true help for the newbie is something that helps move them out of
that status -- something that provides the necessary steps, but also
educates the user on what exactly is being done and why.  That opens a
larger world for future exploration.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com | http://chipsquips.com
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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Matthew Seaman]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 13/06/2010 01:49:39, Chad Perrin wrote:
> What I *do* find to be of value, however, is improving the installation
> process so that it is clearer what is going on at each step and improving
> the efficiency of it without damaging its flexibility.  I don't have any
> problem with making it easier for a new user to understand and use, as
> long as it doesn't interfere with the suitability for experts who don't
> care about whooshing noises, 3D animations, "helpful" cartoon characters,
> and the ability to use a mouse where it's not really needed.  In fact, I
> think the world would be a better place if more people used FreeBSD,
> almost regardless of their levels of technical expertise -- as long as
> the OS doesn't start catering to their demands for Clippy and spinning
> logos that take three minutes to load.

Exactly my thinking.  Style vs substance -- all the style in the world
won't help you one bit unless it's backed by real substance.
Unfortunately far too few people are capable of seeing through the
surface gloss of style to understand the substance beneath.  Style also
tends to be rather in the eye of the beholder -- one persons' "exciting
and trendy" is another's "annoying and garish"; whereas substance is
universal.

While most FreeBSD types may not have much use for glitz and glitter,
still, FreeBSD does have it's own aesthetic.  It's minimal, and spare
and it says "We're not going to pretend that this isn't complicated or
difficult.  Effort brings reward."  This is something I find incredibly
attractive; even after more than 10 years it is still refreshing.

Cheers,

Matthew

- -- 
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.   7 Priory Courtyard
  Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
JID: matt...@infracaninophile.co.uk   Kent, CT11 9PW
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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Brandon Gooch]

On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Charlie Kester  wrote:
> On Sat 12 Jun 2010 at 18:17:22 PDT Michelle Konzack wrote:
>>
>> Hello Charlie Kester,
>>
>> Am 2010-06-12 15:51:32, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
>>>
>>> I worked at Microsoft Developer Support in a previous life, beginning at
>>> the time that Visual C++ and MFC were first introduced.
>>
>> Hahaha, you where Killed by a Microsoft Customer...
>>
>> And when you knoked at the door of god, he sent you back to earth to do
>> it better using now FreeBSD...  ;-)
>
> Yeah, something like that.  I'm doing the Lord's work now.  :)

Ha ha :) Well, theological debate aside for now, I've always thought
of the BSD license as a sort of "ultimate expression" of Free Will in
computing...

-Brandon
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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Charlie Kester]

On Sat 12 Jun 2010 at 18:17:22 PDT Michelle Konzack wrote:

Hello Charlie Kester,

Am 2010-06-12 15:51:32, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:

I worked at Microsoft Developer Support in a previous life, beginning at
the time that Visual C++ and MFC were first introduced.


Hahaha, you where Killed by a Microsoft Customer...

And when you knoked at the door of god, he sent you back to earth to do
it better using now FreeBSD...  ;-)


Yeah, something like that.  I'm doing the Lord's work now.  :)

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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Michelle Konzack]

Hello Charlie Kester,

Am 2010-06-12 15:51:32, hacktest Du folgendes herunter:
> I worked at Microsoft Developer Support in a previous life, beginning at
> the time that Visual C++ and MFC were first introduced.

Hahaha, you where Killed by a Microsoft Customer...

And when you knoked at the door of god, he sent you back to earth to do
it better using now FreeBSD...  ;-)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack

-- 
# Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ##
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Owner Michelle KonzackOwner Michelle Konzack

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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Chad Perrin]

On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 03:51:32PM -0700, Charlie Kester wrote:
> 
> I worked at Microsoft Developer Support in a previous life, beginning at
> the time that Visual C++ and MFC were first introduced.  One of
> Microsoft's big selling points was what they called "wizards" --
> basically, a set of simple, dialog-based code-generation tools. What I
> observed, over and over again, is that people would use the wizards to
> create simple MFC applications and then get hopelessly stuck as soon as
> they needed to do something the wizards or the MFC framework didn't
> easily provide.  All the wizards had accomplished was to move the point
> where people got stuck; they hadn't done anything to increase people's
> understanding of how MFC-based code worked or how best to customize it.
> What the wizards did accomplish was to bring in a whole bunch of new
> customers who were encouraged to think of themselves as MFC programmers,
> without requiring them to have even the most elementary competence in
> MFC.
> 
> I'm reminded of this whenever I see proposals to make the FreeBSD system
> install and configuration more graphical and "user-friendly".   Same
> goes for the ports system.

I understand that point of view, and I agree as far as it goes.  I find
no particular value in adding gradients and clicky mouse-operated buttons
to an OS installer.  In fact, that sort of thing tends to slow me down
significantly, interfering with the efficiency of the installation
process.

What I *do* find to be of value, however, is improving the installation
process so that it is clearer what is going on at each step and improving
the efficiency of it without damaging its flexibility.  I don't have any
problem with making it easier for a new user to understand and use, as
long as it doesn't interfere with the suitability for experts who don't
care about whooshing noises, 3D animations, "helpful" cartoon characters,
and the ability to use a mouse where it's not really needed.  In fact, I
think the world would be a better place if more people used FreeBSD,
almost regardless of their levels of technical expertise -- as long as
the OS doesn't start catering to their demands for Clippy and spinning
logos that take three minutes to load.


> 
> As one of my old colleagues used to say, "There are no shortcuts to the
> righthand side of the learning curve."

True, of course.  I don't know how exactly you mean your statements to
come off, but I feel compelled to point out that this doesn't exclude the
occasional usefulness of giving some shortcuts between one (limited)
learning curve and another (far less limited) learning curve, though, as
we get if the path from MS Windows to FreeBSD (for instance) is made a
little clearer.  This is, after all, why we have things like quick
introductions to programming languages: to help people do something like
learn how to program in Common Lisp after having spent several years
screwing around with VB.NET (for a particularly egregious example).  Such
a move from one learning curve to another can be a real eye-opener, and
might result in eventually producing the next FreeBSD core developer.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Chad Perrin]

On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 01:12:55PM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> 
> Call me fatalistic, but I think there is a direct relationship between
> FreeBSD's high quality and it's lack of popularity.  If it catered to the
> common herd, its compromises would be many.

I believe there is such a relationship, too.  I think the obvious way to
interpret this recognition of the relationship is as a causal
relationship where lack of popularity is what (helps/makes) FreeBSD
maintain higher quality, but I think that's mostly the wrong way around.

Rather, it is the focus on quality over quantity that keeps it
"unpopular" (relative to other OSes, anyway).  I also believe that is the
correct decision, without reservation.  There are things that could be
done to improve FreeBSD's suitability and attractiveness to a wider
audience without sacrificing that focus on quality at all -- that could,
in fact, improve that attractiveness while serving the focus in quality.
Such things tend to get neglected, though, and I think it is in part
because of a negative reaction to the idea that populism involves
sacrifices of quality.

Popularity, per se, does not result in poorer quality.  Populism,
however, does -- and both greater popularity *and* a desire for greater
popularity can create populism.  Note that I'm using the term "populism"
in a pejorative, apolitical sense, and not in the sense of advocacy for
the rights of the people, et cetera.

Anyway . . . for my OS of choice (FreeBSD at the moment), I'd much rather
err on the side of elitism and quality than on that of egalitarianism and
quantity.  I just find the occasional statement (which I do *not* think
is what you were saying) that we should actively *avoid* popularity for
the sake of quality quite annoying.  I just find the occasional statement
(which I do *not* think is what you were saying) that we should actively
*avoid* popularity for the sake of quality . . . well, I find it quite
annoying.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Chad Perrin]

On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 06:43:19PM +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote:
> On 12/06/2010 16:38:13, Chad Perrin wrote:
> > 
> > I don't mean to belittle anyone's accomplishments, of course, but I don't
> > find it astonishing at all.  FreeBSD's development model is one that
> > encourages people to develop what they use, and to use what they develop,
> > and it doesn't exclude people for rules of arbitrary hiring practices.
> > When your software is developed and/or maintained by way of a more
> > meritocratic system in which people are "eating their own dog food" and
> > the developers/maintainers are self-selected in large part because of
> > their *interest* in what they develop or maintain, it would be surprising
> > to me if something like FreeBSD *didn't* end up doing better than
> > something like MacOS X, which is developed and maintained under an
> > autocratic model wherein many of the developers and maintainers were
> > assigned to their respective projects (regardless of interest) after
> > being hired due to their resume bullet points (regardless of actual
> > ability).
> 
> You are entirely correct, as far as MacOS X itself goes, although I
> suspect that Apples' core developers are equally as interested in what
> they do as FreeBSD's.  (Not least because there is quite a bit of
> overlap between those groups.)

The MacOS X core developers are pretty much working alone, though, which
does tend to give popular open source projects like FreeBSD a bit of an
advantage in that regard.  I'm also pretty sure that MacOS X doesn't
benefit from the same percentage of core developers who are *personally*
invested the way FreeBSD core developers are.


> 
> MacPorts however is not an official Apple controlled thing (although it
> does have Apple's full support).  It's a volunteer project with
> maintainers and committers in very much the same roles as the
> equivalents for FreeBSD ports.

True.  I wonder if the level of volunteer interest is as high for a
proprietary OS.  Do you know of any statistics for that?


> 
> Given that MacOS X has, what, about 5.8% of the entire world desktop
> userbase (compare: Linux 1.2%, FreeBSD not even on the graph according
> to Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems) they have
> so many more potential volunteers that even if their volunteering rate
> is an order of magnitude less, they'd still come out ahead.

As someone else mentioned, those statistics tend to favor those who
prefer to control their software even after they've distributed it to
others -- *not* open source software, in other words.

. . . and, given that I suspect most people are less interested in
volunteering for supporting a closed source, proprietary system (yes, I'm
aware Darwin is open source, but the OS as a whole is not), I believe it
likely that the volunteer rate is about an order of magnitude or so less
than for FreeBSD (all else being equal).

All of this is guesswork and conjecture, though.  Take it for what it's
worth.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Charlie Kester]

On Sat 12 Jun 2010 at 13:12:55 PDT Chip Camden wrote:


Call me fatalistic, but I think there is a direct relationship between
FreeBSD's high quality and it's lack of popularity.  If it catered to
the common herd, its compromises would be many.



I think we're straying from the original topic, but I agree. 


I worked at Microsoft Developer Support in a previous life, beginning at
the time that Visual C++ and MFC were first introduced.  One of
Microsoft's big selling points was what they called "wizards" --
basically, a set of simple, dialog-based code-generation tools. What I
observed, over and over again, is that people would use the wizards to
create simple MFC applications and then get hopelessly stuck as soon as
they needed to do something the wizards or the MFC framework didn't
easily provide.  All the wizards had accomplished was to move the point
where people got stuck; they hadn't done anything to increase people's
understanding of how MFC-based code worked or how best to customize it.
What the wizards did accomplish was to bring in a whole bunch of new
customers who were encouraged to think of themselves as MFC programmers,
without requiring them to have even the most elementary competence in
MFC.

I'm reminded of this whenever I see proposals to make the FreeBSD system
install and configuration more graphical and "user-friendly".   Same
goes for the ports system.

As one of my old colleagues used to say, "There are no shortcuts to the
righthand side of the learning curve."
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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Chip Camden]

On Jun 12 2010 13:53, Tim Judd wrote:
> 
> These market statistics are pointless.  The numbers are based on
> people reporting their OS and usage.  A system like Microsoft or Apple
> can use a unique host id when checking for system updates which can
> tabulate this data.  Linux is possible to do same, I don't voluntarily
> run linux so I don't know it as much as I do BSD.  However, on BSD, we
> have to purposely select, download, configure and use a product to
> track, I know there are large corporations that use BSD (in one shape
> or form) for their OS, it's just not reported.
> 
> 
> I check the market share/statistics every now and then to see what the
> trend is, but I consider them very one-sided and personally very
> useless to show the actual usage.
> 
> My 2 cents.

Call me fatalistic, but I think there is a direct relationship between
FreeBSD's high quality and it's lack of popularity.  If it catered to the
common herd, its compromises would be many.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com | http://chipsquips.com
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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Tim Judd]

On 6/12/10, Matthew Seaman  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 12/06/2010 16:38:13, Chad Perrin wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 08:06:52AM +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote:
>>>
>>> Absolutely.  Especially when you compare it to MacPorts and consider the
>>> disparity in numbers of users between MacOS and FreeBSD.  Given that the
>>> ports is maintained by a bunch of volunteers basically in their spare
>>> time, the fact that it is consistently of good quality and that the
>>> popular packages are generally updated to the latest available versions
>>> within a couple of weeks -- frequently within a few hours --
>>> it's a pretty astonishing accomplishment.
>>
>> I don't mean to belittle anyone's accomplishments, of course, but I don't
>> find it astonishing at all.  FreeBSD's development model is one that
>> encourages people to develop what they use, and to use what they develop,
>> and it doesn't exclude people for rules of arbitrary hiring practices.
>> When your software is developed and/or maintained by way of a more
>> meritocratic system in which people are "eating their own dog food" and
>> the developers/maintainers are self-selected in large part because of
>> their *interest* in what they develop or maintain, it would be surprising
>> to me if something like FreeBSD *didn't* end up doing better than
>> something like MacOS X, which is developed and maintained under an
>> autocratic model wherein many of the developers and maintainers were
>> assigned to their respective projects (regardless of interest) after
>> being hired due to their resume bullet points (regardless of actual
>> ability).
>>
>> That's just my perspective.  I suppose yours may differ.
>>
>
> You are entirely correct, as far as MacOS X itself goes, although I
> suspect that Apples' core developers are equally as interested in what
> they do as FreeBSD's.  (Not least because there is quite a bit of
> overlap between those groups.)
>
> MacPorts however is not an official Apple controlled thing (although it
> does have Apple's full support).  It's a volunteer project with
> maintainers and committers in very much the same roles as the
> equivalents for FreeBSD ports.
>
> Given that MacOS X has, what, about 5.8% of the entire world desktop
> userbase (compare: Linux 1.2%, FreeBSD not even on the graph according
> to Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems) they have
> so many more potential volunteers that even if their volunteering rate
> is an order of magnitude less, they'd still come out ahead.
>

These market statistics are pointless.  The numbers are based on
people reporting their OS and usage.  A system like Microsoft or Apple
can use a unique host id when checking for system updates which can
tabulate this data.  Linux is possible to do same, I don't voluntarily
run linux so I don't know it as much as I do BSD.  However, on BSD, we
have to purposely select, download, configure and use a product to
track, I know there are large corporations that use BSD (in one shape
or form) for their OS, it's just not reported.


I check the market share/statistics every now and then to see what the
trend is, but I consider them very one-sided and personally very
useless to show the actual usage.

My 2 cents.
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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Matthew Seaman]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 12/06/2010 16:38:13, Chad Perrin wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 08:06:52AM +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote:
>>
>> Absolutely.  Especially when you compare it to MacPorts and consider the
>> disparity in numbers of users between MacOS and FreeBSD.  Given that the
>> ports is maintained by a bunch of volunteers basically in their spare
>> time, the fact that it is consistently of good quality and that the
>> popular packages are generally updated to the latest available versions
>> within a couple of weeks -- frequently within a few hours --
>> it's a pretty astonishing accomplishment.
> 
> I don't mean to belittle anyone's accomplishments, of course, but I don't
> find it astonishing at all.  FreeBSD's development model is one that
> encourages people to develop what they use, and to use what they develop,
> and it doesn't exclude people for rules of arbitrary hiring practices.
> When your software is developed and/or maintained by way of a more
> meritocratic system in which people are "eating their own dog food" and
> the developers/maintainers are self-selected in large part because of
> their *interest* in what they develop or maintain, it would be surprising
> to me if something like FreeBSD *didn't* end up doing better than
> something like MacOS X, which is developed and maintained under an
> autocratic model wherein many of the developers and maintainers were
> assigned to their respective projects (regardless of interest) after
> being hired due to their resume bullet points (regardless of actual
> ability).
> 
> That's just my perspective.  I suppose yours may differ.
> 

You are entirely correct, as far as MacOS X itself goes, although I
suspect that Apples' core developers are equally as interested in what
they do as FreeBSD's.  (Not least because there is quite a bit of
overlap between those groups.)

MacPorts however is not an official Apple controlled thing (although it
does have Apple's full support).  It's a volunteer project with
maintainers and committers in very much the same roles as the
equivalents for FreeBSD ports.

Given that MacOS X has, what, about 5.8% of the entire world desktop
userbase (compare: Linux 1.2%, FreeBSD not even on the graph according
to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems) they have
so many more potential volunteers that even if their volunteering rate
is an order of magnitude less, they'd still come out ahead.

Cheers,

Matthew

- -- 
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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Chad Perrin]

On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 08:06:52AM +0100, Matthew Seaman wrote:
> 
> Absolutely.  Especially when you compare it to MacPorts and consider the
> disparity in numbers of users between MacOS and FreeBSD.  Given that the
> ports is maintained by a bunch of volunteers basically in their spare
> time, the fact that it is consistently of good quality and that the
> popular packages are generally updated to the latest available versions
> within a couple of weeks -- frequently within a few hours --
> it's a pretty astonishing accomplishment.

I don't mean to belittle anyone's accomplishments, of course, but I don't
find it astonishing at all.  FreeBSD's development model is one that
encourages people to develop what they use, and to use what they develop,
and it doesn't exclude people for rules of arbitrary hiring practices.
When your software is developed and/or maintained by way of a more
meritocratic system in which people are "eating their own dog food" and
the developers/maintainers are self-selected in large part because of
their *interest* in what they develop or maintain, it would be surprising
to me if something like FreeBSD *didn't* end up doing better than
something like MacOS X, which is developed and maintained under an
autocratic model wherein many of the developers and maintainers were
assigned to their respective projects (regardless of interest) after
being hired due to their resume bullet points (regardless of actual
ability).

That's just my perspective.  I suppose yours may differ.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: freebsd - for the win

[Matthew Seaman]

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On 12/06/2010 04:33:02, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> 
> I'm working on a project for my client, and I spent the better part of
> two days trying to get my laptop running OSX to have the right
> combination of BerkeleyDB and Perl modules to build what I wanted.
> Turns out my Perl 5.10.1 install was incompatible with BerkeleyDB on
> OSX, but the macports version 5.8.9 was also in the wrong path, ugh.
> 
> Finally, I said "hey, freebsd would do better here".
> 
> Within a half day, I had a freebsd VMWare image up and running,
> executing precisely the code I wanted, and I was able to take my
> development to the next round.
> 
> FreeBSD.  The Ports Just Work.  Nothing else like it.
> 

Absolutely.  Especially when you compare it to MacPorts and consider the
disparity in numbers of users between MacOS and FreeBSD.  Given that the
ports is maintained by a bunch of volunteers basically in their spare
time, the fact that it is consistently of good quality and that the
popular packages are generally updated to the latest available versions
within a couple of weeks -- frequently within a few hours --
it's a pretty astonishing accomplishment.

Cheers,

Matthew

Mind you, I am vaguely starting to wonder when perl5.12 is going to hit
the tree...

- -- 
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil.   7 Priory Courtyard
  Flat 3
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