Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Adam Vande More]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 11:46 AM,  wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:46:35 -0400, Michel Talon 
> wrote:
>
>  Jerry said:
>>
>>  "Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in
>>> Java 6 Update 15 and above."
>>>
>>
>> OK, this explains why my plugin doesn't work. So the only solution is to
>> use the port firefox35 hoping that other components (flash plugin
>> support) also work in this case.
>
>
Yes, as I said in the second post to the thread.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 8:37 PM, C. P. Ghost  wrote:


> I don't know about Firefox 3.6 plugins though.
>

It doesn't work, you need the icetea to generate the plugins.  There is
this:  /usr/ports/java/icedtea6-stubs  Looks promising anyways.

There is also this work around.

http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-java/2010-February/008535.html

Java seems more pervasive than ever in the web enviro at least for sys admin
type stuff.  Today I used it to access a Proxmox install, a Lantronics
spider kvm over IP, and my girlfriend's child had a homework assignment on a
java web app that was broken due to a recent update to her XP's java
runtime.

You can say all you want Java is dead, dying, and/or irrelevant.  I wish you
were right, unfortunately that's not the world many of us live in.

-- 
Adam Vande More
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[C. P. Ghost]

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Jerry  wrote:
> As per the Mozilla site:
>
> "Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in
> Java 6 Update 15 and above."
>
> FreeBSD does not supply, nor support as far as I can decipher, that
> version or any of the newer versions, the latest being version 6, update
> 21. Nor, as I stated previously, has anyone stated definitively why.

That's one of the problems w.r.t. Java on FreeBSD:  I had to install
openjdk6, which provides at least this level in order to run all services
that Freenet provides (Freenet runs in degraded mode with java/jdk16,
because that version is too old and contains a big XML-related vulnerability).
But java/openjdk6 works just fine with Freenet and almost any Java program
I could throw at it. I don't know about Firefox 3.6 plugins though.

% java -version
openjdk version "1.6.0"
OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0-b20)
OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 17.0-b16, mixed mode)

-cpghost.

-- 
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[bdsfbsd]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:46:35 -0400, Michel Talon   
wrote:



Jerry said:


"Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in
Java 6 Update 15 and above."


OK, this explains why my plugin doesn't work. So the only solution is to
use the port firefox35 hoping that other components (flash plugin
support) also work in this case.



This, by the way, is probably the correct and only answer the OP was  
looking for. I had Java working just fine in a previous install, but  
hadn't bothered with it lately so I didn't want to answer the OP and  
possibly misinform. The OP didn't mean to troll (thus the non-descriptive  
yet truthful subject line), but we got treated to a big pointless  
discussion of whether or not Java is useful/evil anyway, with the added  
joy for some of us of receiving many copies of the responses thanks to the  
cross-posting. Sometimes people just want the _technical_ answer, not the  
_political_ one, regardless of the strength of your convictions.


Brian
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Michel Talon]

Jerry said:

> "Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in
> Java 6 Update 15 and above."

OK, this explains why my plugin doesn't work. So the only solution is to
use the port firefox35 hoping that other components (flash plugin
support) also work in this case. 

> FreeBSD does not supply, nor support as far as I can decipher, that
> version or any of the newer versions, the latest being version 6, update
> 21. Nor, as I stated previously, has anyone stated definitively why.

It takes a long time for FreeBSD to support a new version of the jdk,
because this is an extremely voluminous and complicated software, and
the number of developers working on Java support is very small.


-- 

Michel TALON

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jerry]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:17:32 +
Michel Talon  articulated:

> 
> Jerry said:
> "
> It took years, literally, before FreeBSD matured enough to get 64-bit
> drivers for nVidia working correctly on its platform. The failure to
> get the latest version(s) of Java working correctly on FreeBSD and
> thereby, at least in my case, make the latest version of Firefox fully
> usable, rests with the FreeBSD developers.
> "
> 
> I would be happy to have a precise information on what is not working.
> On my machine, FreeBSD-8.1 x86, Java works.
> niobe% java -version
> java version "1.6.0_03-p4"
> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build
> 1.6.0_03-p4-michel_30_jul_2010_15_01-b00)
> Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build
> 1.6.0_03-p4-michel_30_jul_2010_15_01-b00, mixed mode)

On my system, using the latest build available in the ports system:

$ java -version
java version "1.6.0_07"
Diablo Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_07-b02)
Diablo Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 10.0-b23, mixed mode)


> As you can see, it is a recent java, and i have compiled it myself.
> If i remember well, the prebuilt diablo-jdk was not working. I have
> boostraped my compilation by using a prebuilt openjdk installed with
> pkg_add -r. Of course i modified the Makefile to be able to use it.
> 
> The openjdk package did not include a mozilla plugin, but the above
> compilation produces a plugin.
> 
> Now the real problem: firefox36 doesn't see the plugin, and even worse
> doesn't produce any message about the plugin when starting up. 
> However i am able to use the plugin under seamonkey, so it is clearly
> a firefox problem, and not a Java problem or a FreeBSD problem.
> Strangely enough, Konqueror, which doesn't use the plugin, but a
> direct invocation of java, doesn't work either. Execution of an
> applet begins, something appears but the applet execution never
> appears on screen. This is the first time i see Java not working on
> Konqueror.

I am using Firefox:

$ firefox3 --version
Mozilla Firefox 3.6.9, Copyright (c) 1998 - 2010 mozilla.org

If I wanted to use a different browser, I would. Hell, I could just use
Windows and not worry about Java incompatibilities entirely.

As per the Mozilla site:

"Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in
Java 6 Update 15 and above."

FreeBSD does not supply, nor support as far as I can decipher, that
version or any of the newer versions, the latest being version 6, update
21. Nor, as I stated previously, has anyone stated definitively why.

> Last point: some people say in this thread that nobody uses Java any
> more on the browser, hence it is of no importance that one cannot
> have a java enabled firefox. I have an example to the contrary, here
> in France you can submit your tax declaration online, and the
> application allowing to do that is a java applet running under the
> browser. Similarly i am using a printing service for my photographs
> which allows to download them and manage the order via a java applet.
> Hence, at least in my case i see immediately several important
> applications using a Java enabled browser.

People bitch about not needing or requiring Java based virtually solely
on the lack of support the FreeBSD community (developers) have afforded
it. If, Java worked as well on FreeBSD as it does on Windows and many
other operating systems, their scorn would turn to praise. It is just
the nature of the beast.

-- 
Jerry ✌
freebsd.u...@seibercom.net

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[C. Bergström]

Jonathan McKeown wrote:


Yes. It lies with Sun and Oracle, and the licensing terms that prevent the 
FreeBSD project from distributing modified Java packages. More generally, the 
problem lies with companies who won't support FreeBSD but also prevent the 
project from supporting their product itself.
  


I've been wanting to ignore this thread because I know the amount of 
work involved, but


#1 Why doesn't someone sign-up and get the OpenJDK validation suite?
#2 Why doesn't someone pull Icedtea6, build it and then run the OpenJDK 
validation suite?


I don't know if waiting for others is going to get the desired results 
in this case..


After the project is rolling I'm happy to help make suggestions or give 
a hand with how to make Hotspot and the whole JDK a little better 
performance.


Thanks

./C
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jonathan McKeown]

On Wednesday 15 September 2010 13:02:41 Jerry wrote:

> It took years, literally, before FreeBSD matured enough to get 64-bit
> drivers for nVidia working correctly on its platform. The failure to
> get the latest version(s) of Java working correctly on FreeBSD and
> thereby, at least in my case, make the latest version of Firefox fully
> usable, rests with the FreeBSD developers.
>
> I have not been able to ascertain exactly why Java cannot be made
> functional on a modern FreeBSD system. Other than receiving some
> useless suggestion about donating money to the Java foundation, or
> whatever it is called, nobody has responded with an answer.

> The bottom line is that Java appears to be functioning on other flavors
> of *.nix, but not FreeBSD. It would seem pretty obvious where the
> problem lies.

Yes. It lies with Sun and Oracle, and the licensing terms that prevent the 
FreeBSD project from distributing modified Java packages. More generally, the 
problem lies with companies who won't support FreeBSD but also prevent the 
project from supporting their product itself.

There are strong commercial interests in Linux - IBM, Red Hat, Oracle, to name 
three - which makes it worth spending some money supporting a product on 
Linux. (That goes for other products too: nvidia graphics card drivers, 
flash, wireless networking device drivers...) Even so there are products that 
have patchy support in Linux too.

FreeBSD isn't as attractive a commercial target, since it has no financially 
powerful backers (that I'm aware of), a small market share, and not much 
public awareness. Some companies are prepared to sink resources into 
supporting it anyway, and others are prepared to release the information 
needed for the FreeBSD project to support their products for them. There are 
other companies, as I said, that won't do either.

I don't think it's fair to blame the FreeBSD developers for that; nor indeed 
to expect the FreeBSD developers to be responsible for making Sun/Oracle's 
Java and the Mozilla Foundation's Firefox work.

Jonathan
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Michel Talon]

Jerry said:
"
It took years, literally, before FreeBSD matured enough to get 64-bit
drivers for nVidia working correctly on its platform. The failure to
get the latest version(s) of Java working correctly on FreeBSD and
thereby, at least in my case, make the latest version of Firefox fully
usable, rests with the FreeBSD developers.
"

I would be happy to have a precise information on what is not working.
On my machine, FreeBSD-8.1 x86, Java works.
niobe% java -version
java version "1.6.0_03-p4"
Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build
1.6.0_03-p4-michel_30_jul_2010_15_01-b00)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build
1.6.0_03-p4-michel_30_jul_2010_15_01-b00, mixed mode)


As you can see, it is a recent java, and i have compiled it myself.
If i remember well, the prebuilt diablo-jdk was not working. I have
boostraped my compilation by using a prebuilt openjdk installed with
pkg_add -r. Of course i modified the Makefile to be able to use it.

The openjdk package did not include a mozilla plugin, but the above
compilation produces a plugin.

Now the real problem: firefox36 doesn't see the plugin, and even worse
doesn't produce any message about the plugin when starting up. 
However i am able to use the plugin under seamonkey, so it is clearly
a firefox problem, and not a Java problem or a FreeBSD problem.
Strangely enough, Konqueror, which doesn't use the plugin, but a direct
invocation of java, doesn't work either. Execution of an applet begins,
something appears but the applet execution never appears on
screen. This is the first time i see Java not working on Konqueror.


Last point: some people say in this thread that nobody uses Java any
more on the browser, hence it is of no importance that one cannot have a
java enabled firefox. I have an example to the contrary, here in France
you can submit your tax declaration online, and the application allowing
to do that is a java applet running under the browser. Similarly i am
using a printing service for my photographs which allows to download
them and manage the order via a java applet. Hence, at least in my case
i see immediately several important applications using a Java enabled
browser.





-- 

Michel TALON

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jerry]

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:52:57 -0500
Joshua Isom  articulated:

> As to the original post, Java, a "portable" "write once run anywhere" 
> language, doesn't work on FreeBSD, a "standard" type operating system 
> that mainly runs on "standard" hardware, when used with Xorg, a
> widely used "standard," as a plug in for Firefox, a major and
> presumably the dominant *nix web browser.  Maybe the question should
> go to Oracle about why it doesn't work.  A java applet probably works
> on your Symbian smart phone running on ARM.

Java is offered in many different versions that work on a multitude of
operating systems. To expect or require, and I have no idea how you
would enforce the requirement bit, Oracle or any other software
vendor for that matter to design software that is fully functional on
all operating systems is simply unrealistic and most likely
unobtainable.

There are numerous examples of software that work only on a limited
number of *.nix flavors. To be made operational on other operating
systems usually requires reworking the code and in many cases disabling
many of the software's features. Even then there is no guarantee that
it will work correctly, if at all.

It took years, literally, before FreeBSD matured enough to get 64-bit
drivers for nVidia working correctly on its platform. The failure to
get the latest version(s) of Java working correctly on FreeBSD and
thereby, at least in my case, make the latest version of Firefox fully
usable, rests with the FreeBSD developers.

I have not been able to ascertain exactly why Java cannot be made
functional on a modern FreeBSD system. Other than receiving some
useless suggestion about donating money to the Java foundation, or
whatever it is called, nobody has responded with an answer.

The bottom line is that Java appears to be functioning on other flavors
of *.nix, but not FreeBSD. It would seem pretty obvious where the
problem lies.

-- 
Jerry ✌
freebsd.u...@seibercom.net

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Joshua Isom]

On 9/14/2010 4:21 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

"Jules" == Jules Gilbert  writes:


Jules>  Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java
Jules>  sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle.
Jules>  (It's called Open Source.)

And that's what I tried to say in my last few posts.  Given Oracle's
apparent stance to own Java not by copyright but by patent, it doesn't
*matter* that Java is "open source".  We'll have to wait until Oracle
v. Google is decided, but unless Google can invalidate Oracle's
*patents* on Java, Java is effectively dead, unless you want to sleep in
Oracle's bed.



Google sort of shot themselves in the foot since it's like java enough 
that everyone not a lawyer can call it java, except it needs recompiled, 
and that Google ignored the patent grant by Sun since they made it a 
subset.  There's also the issue that Google's not paying licensing fees 
to say it's Java capable.  Google was intentionally weaseling out of a 
potential problem.  Sun being bought got Google in trouble.  Sun's 
patent grant could have protected Google, but Google refused it.


As to the original post, Java, a "portable" "write once run anywhere" 
language, doesn't work on FreeBSD, a "standard" type operating system 
that mainly runs on "standard" hardware, when used with Xorg, a widely 
used "standard," as a plug in for Firefox, a major and presumably the 
dominant *nix web browser.  Maybe the question should go to Oracle about 
why it doesn't work.  A java applet probably works on your Symbian smart 
phone running on ARM.

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Chip Camden]

Quoth Randal L. Schwartz on Tuesday, 14 September 2010:
> > "Jules" == Jules Gilbert  writes:
> 
> Jules> Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java
> Jules> sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle.
> Jules> (It's called Open Source.)
> 
> And that's what I tried to say in my last few posts.  Given Oracle's
> apparent stance to own Java not by copyright but by patent, it doesn't
> *matter* that Java is "open source".  We'll have to wait until Oracle
> v. Google is decided, but unless Google can invalidate Oracle's
> *patents* on Java, Java is effectively dead, unless you want to sleep in
> Oracle's bed.
> 

... and Oracle makes for a large bedfellow, with a reputation for a
painful embrace.

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com


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Description: PGP signature

Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Jules" == Jules Gilbert  writes:

Jules> Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java
Jules> sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle.
Jules> (It's called Open Source.)

And that's what I tried to say in my last few posts.  Given Oracle's
apparent stance to own Java not by copyright but by patent, it doesn't
*matter* that Java is "open source".  We'll have to wait until Oracle
v. Google is decided, but unless Google can invalidate Oracle's
*patents* on Java, Java is effectively dead, unless you want to sleep in
Oracle's bed.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[RW]

On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:11:10 -0400
Jules Gilbert  wrote:

> A typical FBSD user wants to be able to do a ports-based install, or
> perhaps a pkg_add and, presto, out of the box, have a browser.
> 
> And, here it comes...  Wait for it.
> 
> Without too much trouble, have a running Java, connect to that browser
> and working.  And it doesn't matter if some of us like or don't like
> Java.  It's here and it's staying here.  In ten years, and probably in
> twenty years, it will still be an important part of a typical OS
> environment.
>
> I understand that Sun declined to allow pre-built configurations to be
> shipped.  Okay.

Personally, I haven't used java for a long time (or even noticed its
absence - unlike flash), so I 'm a bit behind the times. What's the is
the problem?

If they are stopping pre-built packages then that presumably just means
the end of the diablo ports. Before those port existed I don't recall
the plug-in situation as being any worse than slightly irritating. Is
there more to it than that?
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[David Brodbeck]

(Trimming the CC list a bit.)

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Jules Gilbert  wrote:
> I understand that Sun declined to allow pre-built configurations to be
> shipped.  Okay.
>
> Now, (here I am not asking for a public response, nor am I suggesting
> that anyone email me privately about this,) does anyone have an "in"
> with Oracle management?

If you're holding your breath waiting for Oracle to answer questions,
about all you're going to do is turn blue.  They have a policy of not
communicating about the status of their products.  Anyone with an "in"
with management would probably be forbidden to talk about it.

Take a look at how long they jerked the OpenSolaris folks around
before dumping them and ask yourself if you want to volunteer for that
kind of treatment.
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jules Gilbert]

I'm the guy who started this thread.

First, I'm not unhappy with any of you.  Each of you, every single
person who has, at any time, been a member of the team working on
*any* FBSD sub-system, has contributed more than me.  I don't
criticize you, I salute you, thank you.

And stop throwing bricks at each other, we, the users, continue to
need your skills and your contributions.

Now, I wrote my note for a reason -- which no one seems to have
touched on (maybe I missed it, that's certainly possible.)

A typical FBSD user wants to be able to do a ports-based install, or
perhaps a pkg_add and, presto, out of the box, have a browser.

And, here it comes...  Wait for it.

Without too much trouble, have a running Java, connect to that browser
and working.  And it doesn't matter if some of us like or don't like
Java.  It's here and it's staying here.  In ten years, and probably in
twenty years, it will still be an important part of a typical OS
environment.

I understand that Sun declined to allow pre-built configurations to be
shipped.  Okay.

Now, (here I am not asking for a public response, nor am I suggesting
that anyone email me privately about this,) does anyone have an "in"
with Oracle management?

Because we need Oracle to reverse their decision in this matter
(remember, they inherited Java from Sun, but their management team is
slowly buying in to the decisions that Sun made.  We want to give the
Oracle people good reasons to change their thinking in regards to
Java.

It may be theoretically possible for a current user to build, say, a
Firefox browser with a working Java, but this happens at a time when
that new machine is just coming up.  One mistake sometimes makes the
builder unsure what he needs to change in his environment to try again
(boy, is that me!)

So, assuming we can't get real change from Oracle, can we at least
provide much better install instructions for naive users.  Please.
(And I am hoping that my notes generate both short-term fixes as well
as more permanent policy changes on the part of Oracle.)

Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java
sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle.
(It's called Open Source.)

It would help me if the FreeBSD website provided somewhat better
descriptions of the programs offered.  Those descriptions are perfect
-- if you already know what you're doing.  But in this area I am a
naive user.  For example:  Do JDK's (java development kit's,) provide
anything for an end-user?  Or are they only useful for people building
applications?  Also:  To run Java with a browser, do I need anything
more than a client run-time environment?  If so, what?

Oh, one more thing... I don't do compiler stuff anymore, I did once.
And to those of you who want to toss Java, you've got a lot of work to
do, not only in terms of overcoming the number of applications but
also the design, the people who've worked on it did great work.  It's
not going away.  What will happen is what's already happening, stuff
like IceTea is being built.  But scrapping Java?, not for at least 25
years, more probably.


On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Jules Gilbert  wrote:
> About Java.  Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser.
>
> Some questions:
>
> Is GNU java sufficient?  I need to be able to run a browser with Java.
>  No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz.
>
> I'm trying to do an 8.1 install.
>
> Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS?
>
> Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way
> to do this.
>
> Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
> around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
> that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.
>
> Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past
> three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting
> the FreeBSD community.
>
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Paul Wootton]

 On 09/10/10 15:16, Chip Camden wrote:
Perhaps someone could provide specific use cases for which Java is the 
only good solution?




Take a look at some online games.

For example Runescape (www.runescape.com)

Taken from Wikipedia
"/*RuneScape*/ is a fantasy  
massively multiplayer online role-playing game 
 
(MMORPG) released in January 2001 by Andrew 
 and Paul Gower,^[2] 
 and 
developed by Jagex Ltd.  It is a 
graphical  browser game 
 implemented on the 
client-side  in 
Java , and 
incorporates 3D rendering . 
The game has approximately 10 million active accounts, over 130 million 
registered accounts,^[3] 
 and is 
recognised by the Guinness World Records 
 as the world's 
most popular free MMORPG.^[4] 
 "


Using Java, Jagex have made Runescape available to most computer users, 
not just Windows users


A lot of IP-KVMs also use client side Java apps.


Paul
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Dave]

On 10 Sep 2010 at 18:20, Jason C. Wells wrote:

Subject:Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

> On 09/10/10 07:29, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >
> > I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.
> >
> >
> Java is not just for browsers.
> 
> Regards,
> Jason C. Wells
> 

I can't help wondering if half of you are talking about the 
"JavaScripting" language that runs in a browser, while the rest are 
talking about the "Java Run Time Engine" that some (cross platform) 
standalone app's (and some browser apps) use.

All I know is they are very different beasts.

dit dit.

Dave B.

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Dave]

On 10 Sep 2010 at 18:20, Jason C. Wells wrote:

Subject:Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

> On 09/10/10 07:29, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >
> > I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.
> >
> >
> Java is not just for browsers.
> 
> Regards,
> Jason C. Wells
> 

I can't help wondering if half of you are talking about the 
"JavaScripting" language that runs in a browser, while the rest are 
talking about the "Java Run Time Engine" that some (cross platform) 
standalone app's (and some browser apps) use.

All I know is they are very different beasts.

dit dit.

Dave B.

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Polytropon]

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 03:17:49 -0500, Joshua Isom  wrote:
> So to configure your router, you need a java enabled browser, and odds 
> are you get the jar file from the router, so it has an http server, and 
> probably another server just to process configuration requests?  Now 
> your router has two servers running, one to get the jar, one to deal 
> with config, instead of one http server with one cgi script.

Yes, such complicated devices exist. Accessing it with Java
switched off, you can't do anything. Very overcomplicated,
and slow.



> Java has/had its uses, but I don't recall the last time I ran something 
> using java. 

As it has been mentioned, Java is often required in online
banking, but as far as I've noticed, it's also less and less
important in those fields. I'm not using online banking
myself so my opinion is very little substanciated.



> At the moment when it comes to the browser, flash is more 
> important and that's only for all the websites that want to stream 
> instead of give you a file like they used to.

Not only that. Whole suites of development tools are arranged
around "Flash" in order to replace dealing with HTML at all.
Navigational elements, as well as non-AV content is enclosed
in "Flash" to limit accessibility (which of course makes the
web less barrier-free, but who cares except cripples - they
don't count, majority wins). Also "content protection" is a
field where "Flash" is heavily used, like "No, you can't
select this text and copy it somewhere else!" What animated
GIFs were in the past, that's "Flash" today, but much more
ressource-intensive, proprietary, dangerous, and annoying.



> I remember years and years ago starting to learn java. 

It was hard for me to "learn" Java at university when I had
already years of C experience. :-)



> I got really 
> frustrated by spending a few hours going through documentation to find 
> the "proper" way to read a text file. 

I didn't know there was one. :-)



> Writing the gui seemed easy, the 
> rest wasn't.

That's the basic idea: Make it "look good" on the outside, so
it appeals to users using the "first sight effect". Don't care
for the internals, nobody can see them anyway. :-)



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Joshua Isom]

On 9/11/2010 1:10 AM, Polytropon wrote:

Let me add another field: There are applicances like "all-in-one
DSL modem telephone splitter router DHCP server NAT firewall boxes"
that are very common in german households. Those usually use Java
to present their control elements to the user; "Applet loading"
is often seen when connected to that box in order to change some
setting. I think the initial developers found it better to put
a Java applet in there than some PHP generated HTML served by
a little web server... they could have used an efficient and
professional programming language, too, but that's something you
won't find in home consumer crap devices.:-)




So to configure your router, you need a java enabled browser, and odds 
are you get the jar file from the router, so it has an http server, and 
probably another server just to process configuration requests?  Now 
your router has two servers running, one to get the jar, one to deal 
with config, instead of one http server with one cgi script.


Java has/had its uses, but I don't recall the last time I ran something 
using java.  At the moment when it comes to the browser, flash is more 
important and that's only for all the websites that want to stream 
instead of give you a file like they used to.


I remember years and years ago starting to learn java.  I got really 
frustrated by spending a few hours going through documentation to find 
the "proper" way to read a text file.  Writing the gui seemed easy, the 
rest wasn't.

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Polytropon]

On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:49:56 -0600, Chad Perrin  wrote:
> These days, it seems like the only places
> people *really* think they still need Java are smartphones and
> "enterprise" systems running on overpriced servers -- neither of which
> makes a difference for Firefox on the desktop.

Let me add another field: There are applicances like "all-in-one
DSL modem telephone splitter router DHCP server NAT firewall boxes"
that are very common in german households. Those usually use Java
to present their control elements to the user; "Applet loading"
is often seen when connected to that box in order to change some
setting. I think the initial developers found it better to put
a Java applet in there than some PHP generated HTML served by
a little web server... they could have used an efficient and
professional programming language, too, but that's something you
won't find in home consumer crap devices. :-)



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Polytropon]

Preface: Sorry for messing up the quotes and all, this message
 got a bit untidy so that even *I* am unsure who I am
 currently replying to. :-)


On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:24:31 +, four.harris...@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 10. sep. 2010, at 16:29, mer...@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:
> > Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well.  And yes, until
> > then, we're stuck with Flash.

Sadly not. While HTML5 standardizes the embedding of video content,
there still seems to be a problem with codec to use. All this
idiotic crap of patenting, licensing, and all the fee-loaded
lawyer-stuff that has NO need to exist in a technical discussion
brought "Flash" where it is today: "Flash" is abused as a replacement
of HTML, mostly by "professional program managers" and script kiddies.

HTML5 browsers would need to be able to play video content out
of the box, WITHOUT the need for installing additional codecs
"that are illegal to use in my country" - you know what I mean.

It's like requiring a plugin at OS kernel level to display text
in bold face, or showing a PNG image in a web page!



> > I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.
> 
> You are forgetting - or conveniently ignoring - that many still
> NEED Java support in their browsers - and not of their own choice.

I think the initial suggestion to move on was directed exactly
at the reasons you mentioned in the next sentence:



> Banks, insurances, digital signature services etc. Still frequently
> use Java as carrier for their services. Often this cannot be changed
> easily as such organizations have long turn-around times and make
> investments in the long term. 

Good software can always be changed easily. :-)



> Java is still very much alive, and until html5 can validate and run
> signed code it'll stay that way even on the client. And that is just
> one of the reasons/scenarios. 

It's also very famous in education. For example, basic programming 
courses (not BASIC programming courses!) often use Java to teach
the basics of programming. This produces bad programmers. :-)



> I'm not using FreeBSD on the desktop for just this kind o reasons.

I'm using FreeBSD *exclusively* on the desktop since version 4.0.
I never had issues with Java - it always worked. I admit that it
wasn't very easy in the first years due to Sun's licensing politics
(again, politics are the enemy of every educated technical consi-
deration), but it worked. Both in Opera (my main browser) and
Firefox, among many "testing bed" browsers I had to use in the
past.

Since "Flash" works on FreeBSD, I also tried this out. After one
week, I removed it. Reason: No need for it.

You are right that Java is still needed in some places on the
web, but it's far more easy to deal with Java problems than with
"Flash" problems, I think.



> So either one takes the time to implement what people _need_ in
> addition to what you would prefer them to need, or the desktop
> can as well be ditched and focus moved to improving FreeBSD for
> servers, where it already excels. 

First of all, please see the big difference between "what people
need" and "what people want", and who those people are. I'm sure
I don't have to elaborate on this. :-)

Second, FreeBSD is an excellent MULTI-purpose operating system
that can be used on terminals, workstations, servers, and on all
kinds of mixed forms. I would be sad to lose only one of those
functionalities.

For a more desktop-centric FreeBSD that has all the stuff "what
people need", refer to PC-BSD.



> Some sites make accessing them difficult without Flash, but I
> consider that their problem and move on.

Yes, same here.



> FreeBSD isn't just good for servers.

As I said.



-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Jason" == Jason C Wells  writes:

Jason> On 09/10/10 07:29, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>> 
>> I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.
>> 
>> 
Jason> Java is not just for browsers.

Indeed.  And I still stand by my statement.

Java makes everyone equally incompetent, which is why managers like it.
It helps the beginner, hurts the advanced.  Managers can swap
programmers in and out strictly on head count, not on experience.

Friends don't let friends make greenstarts with Java.

-- 
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 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jason C. Wells]

On 09/10/10 07:29, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:


I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.

   

Java is not just for browsers.

Regards,
Jason C. Wells

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Chad Perrin]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 08:16:51AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> 
> Perhaps someone could provide specific use cases for which Java is the
> only good solution?

I guess the only answer to that is "running applications someone wrote in
Java" -- but I know that's *not* what you meant.


> 
> I don't have Flash installed on my browser, and what I lack from that is
> evident.  I have yet to miss Java in any way.  What problems would it
> solve for people that can't be solved using a different approach?

I have intentionally avoided installing Java for a long time.  This has
caused some issues with getting OpenOffice.org running, but the single
use I've had for it in the last year (give or take) dried up a couple
months or so ago, so that reason to care went away.  I sure as heck have
never actually *needed* Java in my browser, for any reason.

Who still uses Java in the browser without some alternative for those who
don't have it, these days?  These days, it seems like the only places
people *really* think they still need Java are smartphones and
"enterprise" systems running on overpriced servers -- neither of which
makes a difference for Firefox on the desktop.

-- 
Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ]


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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Kurt Buff]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 06:46, Randal L. Schwartz  wrote:
>> "Jules" == Jules Gilbert  writes:
>
> Jules> Look, I'm just a user.  I'm not a Java developer, not a language
> Jules> developer, not a run-time specialist.  But folks, we got problems!  I
> Jules> say this because it's becoming really hard to make Java run on a
> Jules> browser.
>
> And that's why I challenged you as to "why".  We needed Java to run in
> the browser back before we had cross-platform DHTML widgets.  But with
> HTML5 around the corner, I've got to again ask, "why Java"?
>
> Java had its day.  Time to move on.

Why Java? I've worked with several SSL VPNs (SonicWall, Juniper,
Aventail) for $WORK, and they all require a java-enabled browser - so
unless you're suggesting that DHTML and HTML5 can replace that, I need
a java-enabled browser.

Aside from that, there are some really nice apps written in Java -
including Data Crow, which is a pretty decent cataloging utility for
my books and movies and such, and I haven't seen anything nearly as
good as that written in a cross-platform language, so that I can move
it between my FreeBSD machine and my family's Windows machines.

Kurt
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[four . harrisons]

-
From:   "Eirik Øverby" 
Subject:    Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Date:   10th September 2010 16:20

On 10. sep. 2010, at 16:29, mer...@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:

>>>>>> "Mark" == Mark Sommer  writes:
> 
> Mark> That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5.
> Mark> I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across
> Mark> browsers, i.e.  adapted universally by all browsers uniformly.
> Mark> Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser.
> 
> Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe.  (Flash too.)
> 
> There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern
> cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead.
> 
> Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well.  And yes, until
> then, we're stuck with Flash.
> 
> We needed Java before we had good JavaScript.  Now we have good
> JavaScript.
> 
> I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.

You are forgetting - or conveniently ignoring - that many still NEED Java 
support in their browsers - and not of their own choice. Banks, insurances, 
digital signature services etc. Still frequently use Java as carrier for their 
services. Often this cannot be changed easily as such organizations have long 
turn-around times and make investments in the long term. 

Java is still very much alive, and until html5 can validate and run signed code 
it'll stay that way even on the client. And that is just one of the 
reasons/scenarios. 

I'm not using FreeBSD on the desktop for just this kind o reasons. I'm sure it 
would be a great choice in an ideal world but we are unfortunately living in a 
real one. So either one takes the time to implement what people _need_ in 
addition to what you would prefer them to need, or the desktop can as well be 
ditched and focus moved to improving FreeBSD for servers, where it already 
excels. 

/Eirik


I've been running FreeBSD as my sole desktop since 5.2.1. I bank and shop 
online. I do not have either Java or Flash installed. I have yet to find any 
functionality missing because of the lack of Java. Some sites make accessing 
them difficult without Flash, but I consider that their problem and move on.

FreeBSD isn't just good for servers.


Peter Harrison
www.4harrisons.blogspot.com




> 
> -- 
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
>  http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Craig Butler]

On Fri, 2010-09-10 at 08:16 -0700, Chip Camden wrote:
> Quoth Randal L. Schwartz on Friday, 10 September 2010:
> > > "Mark" == Mark Sommer  writes:
> > 
> > Mark> That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5.
> > Mark> I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across
> > Mark> browsers, i.e.  adapted universally by all browsers uniformly.
> > Mark> Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser.
> > 
> > Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe.  (Flash too.)
> > 
> > There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern
> > cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead.
> > 
> > Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well.  And yes, until
> > then, we're stuck with Flash.
> > 
> > We needed Java before we had good JavaScript.  Now we have good
> > JavaScript.
> > 
> > I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.
> > 
> 
> Perhaps someone could provide specific use cases for which Java is the
> only good solution?
> 
> I don't have Flash installed on my browser, and what I lack from that is
> evident.  I have yet to miss Java in any way.  What problems would it
> solve for people that can't be solved using a different approach?
> 

One that springs to mind for me is alom/ilo/drac console redirection...
It requires java unfortunately.  

I suspect there are a lot of legacy applications that use javaws... It
will take time for them to catch up once html5 is proper mainstream if
at all.

Cheers

Craig B

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Adam Vande More]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Jerry  wrote:

> Excepting donations != producing results. I will be happy to donate
> $100 US dollars to their fund once they distribute a fully up-to-date
> version of JAVA, not some reworked, deprecated version, that is fully
> compatible with Firefox on FreeBSD. I believe the current version of
> Java is Version 6 Update 21. It simply goes counter to my basic
> business model to contribute any monetary assistance to any open ended
> project.
>

Did you contribute back when it was up to date?  Or do you contribute now
based on all the other features you find useful in FreeBSD?

So you won't write code, you won't donate money, but constantly complain
about it.  I guess I fail to see the logic in your basic business model.

I've donated fairly regularly, and things I've requested like HA and XEN
support are at least partially here now.  If you're in the US your donations
are tax deductible, at least monetary donations are, so there is even less
argument against donations.

-- 
Adam Vande More
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Eirik Øverby]

On 10. sep. 2010, at 16:29, mer...@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote:

>> "Mark" == Mark Sommer  writes:
> 
> Mark> That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5.
> Mark> I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across
> Mark> browsers, i.e.  adapted universally by all browsers uniformly.
> Mark> Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser.
> 
> Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe.  (Flash too.)
> 
> There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern
> cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead.
> 
> Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well.  And yes, until
> then, we're stuck with Flash.
> 
> We needed Java before we had good JavaScript.  Now we have good
> JavaScript.
> 
> I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.

You are forgetting - or conveniently ignoring - that many still NEED Java 
support in their browsers - and not of their own choice. Banks, insurances, 
digital signature services etc. Still frequently use Java as carrier for their 
services. Often this cannot be changed easily as such organizations have long 
turn-around times and make investments in the long term. 

Java is still very much alive, and until html5 can validate and run signed code 
it'll stay that way even on the client. And that is just one of the 
reasons/scenarios. 

I'm not using FreeBSD on the desktop for just this kind o reasons. I'm sure it 
would be a great choice in an ideal world but we are unfortunately living in a 
real one. So either one takes the time to implement what people _need_ in 
addition to what you would prefer them to need, or the desktop can as well be 
ditched and focus moved to improving FreeBSD for servers, where it already 
excels. 

/Eirik


> 
> -- 
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
>  http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
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> 
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Chip Camden]

Quoth Randal L. Schwartz on Friday, 10 September 2010:
> > "Mark" == Mark Sommer  writes:
> 
> Mark> That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5.
> Mark> I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across
> Mark> browsers, i.e.  adapted universally by all browsers uniformly.
> Mark> Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser.
> 
> Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe.  (Flash too.)
> 
> There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern
> cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead.
> 
> Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well.  And yes, until
> then, we're stuck with Flash.
> 
> We needed Java before we had good JavaScript.  Now we have good
> JavaScript.
> 
> I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.
> 

Perhaps someone could provide specific use cases for which Java is the
only good solution?

I don't have Flash installed on my browser, and what I lack from that is
evident.  I have yet to miss Java in any way.  What problems would it
solve for people that can't be solved using a different approach?

-- 
Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F
http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com


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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Mark" == Mark Sommer  writes:

Mark> That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5.
Mark> I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across
Mark> browsers, i.e.  adapted universally by all browsers uniformly.
Mark> Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser.

Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe.  (Flash too.)

There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern
cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead.

Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well.  And yes, until
then, we're stuck with Flash.

We needed Java before we had good JavaScript.  Now we have good
JavaScript.

I repeat... Java had its day.  Time to move on.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Mark Sommer]

On 9/10/10 7:46 AM, "Randal L. Schwartz"  wrote:

>> "Jules" == Jules Gilbert  writes:
> 
> Jules> Look, I'm just a user.  I'm not a Java developer, not a language
> Jules> developer, not a run-time specialist.  But folks, we got problems!  I
> Jules> say this because it's becoming really hard to make Java run on a
> Jules> browser.
> 
> And that's why I challenged you as to "why".  We needed Java to run in
> the browser back before we had cross-platform DHTML widgets.  But with
> HTML5 around the corner, I've got to again ask, "why Java"?
> 
> Java had its day.  Time to move on.

That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5.  I have
yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across browsers, i.e.
adapted universally by all browsers uniformly.  Java is still a very viable
platform, even on the browser.

~Mark


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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Jules" == Jules Gilbert  writes:

Jules> Look, I'm just a user.  I'm not a Java developer, not a language
Jules> developer, not a run-time specialist.  But folks, we got problems!  I
Jules> say this because it's becoming really hard to make Java run on a
Jules> browser.

And that's why I challenged you as to "why".  We needed Java to run in
the browser back before we had cross-platform DHTML widgets.  But with
HTML5 around the corner, I've got to again ask, "why Java"?

Java had its day.  Time to move on.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jerry]

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:43:36 -0500
Adam Vande More  articulated:

> On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Jules Gilbert
> wrote:
> 
> > About Java.  Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser.
> >
> > Some questions:
> >
> > Is GNU java sufficient?  I need to be able to run a browser with
> > Java. No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz.
> >
> > I'm trying to do an 8.1 install.
> >
> 
> Works fine for me as long as you stick with firefox35
> 
> > Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right
> > way to do this.
> >
> > Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
> > around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
> > that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.
> >
> > Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the
> > past three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's
> > hurting the FreeBSD community.
> 
> I believe the FreeBSD Foundation is still accepting donations.

Excepting donations != producing results. I will be happy to donate
$100 US dollars to their fund once they distribute a fully up-to-date
version of JAVA, not some reworked, deprecated version, that is fully
compatible with Firefox on FreeBSD. I believe the current version of
Java is Version 6 Update 21. It simply goes counter to my basic
business model to contribute any monetary assistance to any open ended
project.

-- 
Jerry ✌
freebsd.u...@seibercom.net

Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored.
Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
__

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jules Gilbert]

Look, I'm just a user.  I'm not a Java developer, not a language
developer, not a run-time specialist.  But folks, we got problems!  I
say this because it's becoming really hard to make Java run on a
browser.

I didn't even know that Google and Oracle weren't getting along, I
really am out of date.  (All I do is code.)

But here's the thing: almost no one can make a java enabled browser,
and lot's of us need exactly that, java running on our browsers.  So
obviously this means that something is seriously wrong -- and worse,
when I asked "how", no one came back and said "Oh, you obviously
didn't install such-and-such a patch, do that and everything will
work."  No, and worse, the responses are all about possible solutions
in the distant not-known-when-and-only-maybe future.

I do think we should all get behind this Beat fellow, he's
b...@freebsd.org, his work seems closest to bringing up a java-enabled
browser, with zero or at least few problems.

--jg


On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Randal L. Schwartz
 wrote:
>> "Jules" == Jules Gilbert  writes:
>
> Jules> Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
> Jules> around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
> Jules> that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.
>
> You mean something that looks like Java but isn't Java?
>
> That's precisely what the Oracle v. Google suit is about.  Dangerous
> road to go down at this point.
>
> Or do you mean something that isn't even Java, but has a lot of
> Java-like features?
>
> I think you're describing "everything else already available in
> production".  Plenty of choices.
>
> --
> Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
>  http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
> Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
> See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
>



-- 

Fellow Christians!, Read Galatians, chapter three, verse 14.  Here
Paul documents that Christians have been made part of God's original
promise to Abraham, and that, because of Jesus, we are tied to these
same promises.

But don't for a moment imagine that God is done with the Jews!, no,
God is even today working to fulfill every promise he made, even to
save every person in Israel -- which God declares will be the case,
for he say's that "all Israel will be saved."

About this business with Iran...  Don't fret.  Jeremiah, who probably
wrote the most about modern day Iran, advises us, beginning in chapter
34, verse 49, that Iran is going to lose big.  Yes, one day both Egypt
and Iran, in fact all of south-Asia be a community of Christian
nations.  (Both Isaiah and Zechariah make similar statements.)  In
fact Zechariah say's that Gazan's will one day be elected, freely
elected by Jews, to high offices in Israel.  Imagine that!

But as my wife just told me! when I tried this on her, people aren't
saved (or even helped,) by knowledge of prophecy, no, real assistance
from the God of the Bible comes only one way;  By tying oneself to
Jesus, by asking to partner with him.  He is the basis of help, of
love, and change that brings with it God's love and assistance.
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Vincent Hoffman]

 On 09/09/2010 22:02, Jules Gilbert wrote:
> About Java.  Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser.
>
> Some questions:
>
> Is GNU java sufficient?  I need to be able to run a browser with Java.
>  No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz.
>
> I'm trying to do an 8.1 install.

Looks like you might be in luck
the thread here
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-gecko/2010-September/001099.html
shows that there are 2 ports of  icedtea including a plugin for firefox
3.6 in progress. It looks like the one at
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-java/2010-September/008806.html
is in a better state at the moment.

Vince
> Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS?
>
> Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way
> to do this.
>
> Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
> around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
> that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.
>
> Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past
> three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting
> the FreeBSD community.
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jason C. Wells]

On 09/09/10 14:02, Jules Gilbert wrote:

About Java.  Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser.

Some questions:

Is GNU java sufficient?  I need to be able to run a browser with Java.
  No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz.

I'm trying to do an 8.1 install.

Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS?

Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way
to do this.

   

cd /usr/ports/java/jdk
make
make install

Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.

Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past
three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting
the FreeBSD community.
   
Help you with what?  Their silly little distribution policy is annoying. 
It doesn't prevent you from running java.


Regards,
Jason

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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Randal L. Schwartz]

> "Jules" == Jules Gilbert  writes:

Jules> Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
Jules> around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
Jules> that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.

You mean something that looks like Java but isn't Java?

That's precisely what the Oracle v. Google suit is about.  Dangerous
road to go down at this point.

Or do you mean something that isn't even Java, but has a lot of
Java-like features?

I think you're describing "everything else already available in
production".  Plenty of choices.

-- 
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
 http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion
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Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Adam Vande More]

On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Jules Gilbert wrote:

> About Java.  Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser.
>
> Some questions:
>
> Is GNU java sufficient?  I need to be able to run a browser with Java.
>  No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz.
>
> I'm trying to do an 8.1 install.
>

Works fine for me as long as you stick with firefox35


> Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way
> to do this.
>
> Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
> around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
> that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.
>
> Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past
> three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting
> the FreeBSD community.
>

I believe the FreeBSD Foundation is still accepting donations.
-- 
Adam Vande More
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this is probably a little touchy to ask...

[Jules Gilbert]

About Java.  Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser.

Some questions:

Is GNU java sufficient?  I need to be able to run a browser with Java.
 No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz.

I'm trying to do an 8.1 install.

Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS?

Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way
to do this.

Now an opinion.  If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look
around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something
that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java.

Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past
three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting
the FreeBSD community.
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