Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Nimrod Levy]

That looks promising. I just found that seeing in the bios and disabled it.
I'll see how it runs.

Thanks


On Wed, Jan 17, 2018, 18:38 Don Lewis  wrote:

> On 17 Jan, Nimrod Levy wrote:
> > I'm running 11-STABLE from 12/9.  amdtemp works for me.  It also has the
> > systl indicating that it it has the shared page fix. I'm pretty sure I've
> > seen the lockups since then.  I'll update to the latest STABLE and see
> > what  happens.
> >
> > One weird thing about my experience is that if I keep something running
> > continuously like the distributed.net client on 6 of 12 possible
> threads,
> > it keeps the system up for MUCH longer than without.  This is a home
> server
> > and very lightly loaded (one could argue insanely overpowered for the use
> > case).
>
> This sounds like the problem with the deep Cx states that has been
> reported by numerous Linux users.  I think some motherboard brands are
> more likely to have the problem.  See:
>
> http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5963&title=taichi-x370-with-ubuntu-idle-lock-ups-idle-freeze
>
> --

--
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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Don Lewis]

On 17 Jan, Nimrod Levy wrote:
> I'm running 11-STABLE from 12/9.  amdtemp works for me.  It also has the
> systl indicating that it it has the shared page fix. I'm pretty sure I've
> seen the lockups since then.  I'll update to the latest STABLE and see
> what  happens.
> 
> One weird thing about my experience is that if I keep something running
> continuously like the distributed.net client on 6 of 12 possible threads,
> it keeps the system up for MUCH longer than without.  This is a home server
> and very lightly loaded (one could argue insanely overpowered for the use
> case).

This sounds like the problem with the deep Cx states that has been
reported by numerous Linux users.  I think some motherboard brands are
more likely to have the problem.  See:
http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=5963&title=taichi-x370-with-ubuntu-idle-lock-ups-idle-freeze

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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Don Lewis]

On 17 Jan, Mike Tancsa wrote:
> On 1/17/2018 3:39 PM, Don Lewis wrote:
>> On 17 Jan, Mike Tancsa wrote:
>>> On 1/17/2018 8:43 AM, Pete French wrote:

 Are you running the latest STABLE ? There were some patches for Ryzen
 which went in I belive, and might affect te stability. Specificly the
 chnages to stop it locking up when executing code in the top page ?
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I was testing with RELENG_11 as of 2 days ago.  The fix seems to be 
>>> there
>>>
>>> # sysctl -A hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage
>>> hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage: 1
>>>
>>> Would love to find a class of motherboard that pushes its "You dont need
>>> to dork around with any BIOS settings. It just works.  Oh, and we have a
>>> hardware watchdog too" ipmi would be stellar.
>> 
>> The shared page change fixed the random lockup and silent reboot problem
>> for me.  I've got a 1700X eight core CPU and a Gigabyte X370 Gaming 5. I
>> did have to RMA my CPU (it was an early one) because it had the problem
>> with random segfaults that seemed to be triggered by process migration
>> between CPU cores.  I still haven't switched over to using it for
>> package builds because I see more random fallout than on my older
>> package builder.  I'm not blaming the hardware for that at this point
>> because I see a lot of the same issues on my older machine, but less
>> frequently.
>> 
>> One thing to watch (though it should be less critical with a six core
>> CPU) is VRM cooling.  I removed the stupid plastic shroud over the VRM
>> sink on my motherboard so that it gets some more airflow.
> 
> Thanks! I will confirm the cooling.  I tried just now looking at the CPU
> FAN control in the BIOS and up'd it to "turbo" from the default.  Does
> amdtmp.ko work with your chipset ? Nothing on mine unfortunately, so I
> cant tell from the OS if its running hot.
> 
> Is there a way to see if your CPU is old and has that bug ? I havent
> seen any segfaults on the few dozen buildworlds I have done. So far its
> always been a total lockup and not crash with RELENG11.
> 
> x86info v1.31pre
> Found 12 identical CPUs
> Extended Family: 8 Extended Model: 0 Family: 15 Model: 1 Stepping: 1
> CPU Model (x86info's best guess): AMD Zen Series Processor (ZP-B1)
> Processor name string (BIOS programmed): AMD Ryzen 5 1600 Six-Core
> Processor

My original CPU had a date code of 1708SUT (8th week of 2017 I think),
and the replacement has a date code of 1733SUS.  There's a humungous
discussion thread here  where
date codes are discussed.  As I recall, the first replacement parts
shipped had dates codes somewhere in the mid 20's, but I think AMD was
still hand screening parts at that point.  My replacement came in a
sealed box, so it wasn't hand screened and AMD probably was able to
screen for this problem in their production test.

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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Nimrod Levy]

I'm running 11-STABLE from 12/9.  amdtemp works for me.  It also has the
systl indicating that it it has the shared page fix. I'm pretty sure I've
seen the lockups since then.  I'll update to the latest STABLE and see
what  happens.

One weird thing about my experience is that if I keep something running
continuously like the distributed.net client on 6 of 12 possible threads,
it keeps the system up for MUCH longer than without.  This is a home server
and very lightly loaded (one could argue insanely overpowered for the use
case).

I'm glad to see that there has been some attention on this.  I was a little
disappointed by the earlier thread.

I'm happy to help troubleshoot, but I'm not sure what information I can
gather from a hard locked system that doesn't even show anything on the
console.

--
Nimrod


On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 4:01 PM Mike Tancsa  wrote:

> On 1/17/2018 3:39 PM, Don Lewis wrote:
> > On 17 Jan, Mike Tancsa wrote:
> >> On 1/17/2018 8:43 AM, Pete French wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Are you running the latest STABLE ? There were some patches for Ryzen
> >>> which went in I belive, and might affect te stability. Specificly the
> >>> chnages to stop it locking up when executing code in the top page ?
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>  I was testing with RELENG_11 as of 2 days ago.  The fix seems to
> be there
> >>
> >> # sysctl -A hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage
> >> hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage: 1
> >>
> >> Would love to find a class of motherboard that pushes its "You dont need
> >> to dork around with any BIOS settings. It just works.  Oh, and we have a
> >> hardware watchdog too" ipmi would be stellar.
> >
> > The shared page change fixed the random lockup and silent reboot problem
> > for me.  I've got a 1700X eight core CPU and a Gigabyte X370 Gaming 5. I
> > did have to RMA my CPU (it was an early one) because it had the problem
> > with random segfaults that seemed to be triggered by process migration
> > between CPU cores.  I still haven't switched over to using it for
> > package builds because I see more random fallout than on my older
> > package builder.  I'm not blaming the hardware for that at this point
> > because I see a lot of the same issues on my older machine, but less
> > frequently.
> >
> > One thing to watch (though it should be less critical with a six core
> > CPU) is VRM cooling.  I removed the stupid plastic shroud over the VRM
> > sink on my motherboard so that it gets some more airflow.
>
> Thanks! I will confirm the cooling.  I tried just now looking at the CPU
> FAN control in the BIOS and up'd it to "turbo" from the default.  Does
> amdtmp.ko work with your chipset ? Nothing on mine unfortunately, so I
> cant tell from the OS if its running hot.
>
> Is there a way to see if your CPU is old and has that bug ? I havent
> seen any segfaults on the few dozen buildworlds I have done. So far its
> always been a total lockup and not crash with RELENG11.
>
> x86info v1.31pre
> Found 12 identical CPUs
> Extended Family: 8 Extended Model: 0 Family: 15 Model: 1 Stepping: 1
> CPU Model (x86info's best guess): AMD Zen Series Processor (ZP-B1)
> Processor name string (BIOS programmed): AMD Ryzen 5 1600 Six-Core
> Processor
>
> Monitor/Mwait: min/max line size 64/64, ecx bit 0 support, enumeration
> extension
> SVM: revision 1, 32768 ASIDs, np, lbrVirt, SVMLock, NRIPSave,
> TscRateMsr, VmcbClean, FlushByAsid, DecodeAssists, PauseFilter,
> PauseFilterThreshold
> Address Size: 48 bits virtual, 48 bits physical
> The physical package has 12 of 16 possible cores implemented.
>  running at an estimated 3.20GHz
>
>
>
>
> ---Mike
>
>
>
> --
> ---
> Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 <(519)%20651-3400>
> Sentex Communications, m...@sentex.net
> Providing Internet services since 1994 www.sentex.net
> Cambridge, Ontario Canada   http://www.tancsa.com/
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>


-- 

--
Nimrod
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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Mark Millard via freebsd-stable]

Mike Tancsa mike at sentex.net wrote on:
Wed Jan 17 14:31:50 UTC 2018 :

> On 1/17/2018 8:46 AM, Nimrod Levy wrote:
> > I've been seeing similar issues on Ryzen and asked some questions,
> > here 
> > https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2017-December/088121.html
> > 
> > My previous queries didn't go anywhere.  
> >
>  
> 
> 
> Thats not very promising :(  Googling around, shows lots of similar
> reports both on FreeBSD and Linux, but its a lot of "I tweaked this BIOS
> setting and so far so good" but nothing definitive / conclusive.  Having
> to mess about with hardware settings for days on end hoping to fix
> random lockups is  not good.

See Bugzilla 219399 and 221029 :

https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=219399
https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=221029

I'm not sure how much stable/11 and the like have been
tracking things that were done in head (12) during this.
My use has only been via versions of head.

My 1800X use was basically after head was updated to deal
with what 219399 eventually was isolated to. (221029 is
from splitting off problems that were not originally known
to be separate.)

While I had problems for 1800X that are what the 221029
bugzilla above is about, I've not had such with a 1950X
in the same sorts of contexts as I had been using the
1800X. But this was under Hyper-V for both processor
variants (with matching boards).

I've only tried the 1950X with a native FreeBSD boot once
(a fair time ago). It showed a lockup problem fairly
quickly (power switch/plug time). I've never seen such
(or anything analogous) under Hyper-V with extensive use.

It does not look like I'll be investigating native FreeBSD
on the 1950X anytime soon. (I no longer have access to the
1800X.)

===
Mark Millard
marklmi26-fbsd at yahoo.com
( markmi at dsl-only.net is going away in 2018-Feb, late)
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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Mike Tancsa]

On 1/17/2018 3:39 PM, Don Lewis wrote:
> On 17 Jan, Mike Tancsa wrote:
>> On 1/17/2018 8:43 AM, Pete French wrote:
>>>
>>> Are you running the latest STABLE ? There were some patches for Ryzen
>>> which went in I belive, and might affect te stability. Specificly the
>>> chnages to stop it locking up when executing code in the top page ?
>>
>> Hi,
>>  I was testing with RELENG_11 as of 2 days ago.  The fix seems to be 
>> there
>>
>> # sysctl -A hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage
>> hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage: 1
>>
>> Would love to find a class of motherboard that pushes its "You dont need
>> to dork around with any BIOS settings. It just works.  Oh, and we have a
>> hardware watchdog too" ipmi would be stellar.
> 
> The shared page change fixed the random lockup and silent reboot problem
> for me.  I've got a 1700X eight core CPU and a Gigabyte X370 Gaming 5. I
> did have to RMA my CPU (it was an early one) because it had the problem
> with random segfaults that seemed to be triggered by process migration
> between CPU cores.  I still haven't switched over to using it for
> package builds because I see more random fallout than on my older
> package builder.  I'm not blaming the hardware for that at this point
> because I see a lot of the same issues on my older machine, but less
> frequently.
> 
> One thing to watch (though it should be less critical with a six core
> CPU) is VRM cooling.  I removed the stupid plastic shroud over the VRM
> sink on my motherboard so that it gets some more airflow.

Thanks! I will confirm the cooling.  I tried just now looking at the CPU
FAN control in the BIOS and up'd it to "turbo" from the default.  Does
amdtmp.ko work with your chipset ? Nothing on mine unfortunately, so I
cant tell from the OS if its running hot.

Is there a way to see if your CPU is old and has that bug ? I havent
seen any segfaults on the few dozen buildworlds I have done. So far its
always been a total lockup and not crash with RELENG11.

x86info v1.31pre
Found 12 identical CPUs
Extended Family: 8 Extended Model: 0 Family: 15 Model: 1 Stepping: 1
CPU Model (x86info's best guess): AMD Zen Series Processor (ZP-B1)
Processor name string (BIOS programmed): AMD Ryzen 5 1600 Six-Core
Processor

Monitor/Mwait: min/max line size 64/64, ecx bit 0 support, enumeration
extension
SVM: revision 1, 32768 ASIDs, np, lbrVirt, SVMLock, NRIPSave,
TscRateMsr, VmcbClean, FlushByAsid, DecodeAssists, PauseFilter,
PauseFilterThreshold
Address Size: 48 bits virtual, 48 bits physical
The physical package has 12 of 16 possible cores implemented.
 running at an estimated 3.20GHz




---Mike



-- 
---
Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400
Sentex Communications, m...@sentex.net
Providing Internet services since 1994 www.sentex.net
Cambridge, Ontario Canada   http://www.tancsa.com/
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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Don Lewis]

On 17 Jan, Mike Tancsa wrote:
> On 1/17/2018 8:43 AM, Pete French wrote:
>> 
>> Are you running the latest STABLE ? There were some patches for Ryzen
>> which went in I belive, and might affect te stability. Specificly the
>> chnages to stop it locking up when executing code in the top page ?
> 
> Hi,
>   I was testing with RELENG_11 as of 2 days ago.  The fix seems to be 
> there
> 
> # sysctl -A hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage
> hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage: 1
> 
> Would love to find a class of motherboard that pushes its "You dont need
> to dork around with any BIOS settings. It just works.  Oh, and we have a
> hardware watchdog too" ipmi would be stellar.

The shared page change fixed the random lockup and silent reboot problem
for me.  I've got a 1700X eight core CPU and a Gigabyte X370 Gaming 5. I
did have to RMA my CPU (it was an early one) because it had the problem
with random segfaults that seemed to be triggered by process migration
between CPU cores.  I still haven't switched over to using it for
package builds because I see more random fallout than on my older
package builder.  I'm not blaming the hardware for that at this point
because I see a lot of the same issues on my older machine, but less
frequently.

One thing to watch (though it should be less critical with a six core
CPU) is VRM cooling.  I removed the stupid plastic shroud over the VRM
sink on my motherboard so that it gets some more airflow.

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Re: upgrading from 10.0 to 10.3 problem

[Andy Firman]

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 1:47 PM, Peter Lai  wrote:

> > Hello. I tried to upgrade from 10.0-RELEASE: # freebsd-update -r
> 10.3-RELEASE upgrade
> > ...
> > # freebsd-update install
> > ...
> > # reboot
> > ...
> > # freebsd-update install
> > Installing updates...Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped) Now I have:
> > # freebsd-version -ku
> > 10.3-RELEASE-p4
> > 10.0-RELEASE It's not looking good. How to fix? PS. In /var/log/messages
> I see "(gunzip), uid 0: exited on signal 11"
> > And yes:
> > # gunzip
> > Segmentation fault (core dumped)
>
> Hi Sergey:
>
> I ran into this problem the week before you did:
> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2016-July/085115.html
> Because just about all of the binaries were trashed (including /lib,
> /[s]bin, /usr/lib, /usr/[s]bin files were truncated to 0), I had to
> /rescue/nc > base.txz (where I fetched base.txz from the ftp site in
> the 10.3-RELEASE distribution), then /rescue/tar -zxvf base.txz into a
> directory, then tar | tar each of /lib and so on to get my binaries
> back (apparently /rescue does not have a statically compiled cpio).
>
> After sending the above to the mailing list I went ahead and replaced
> the kernel that the broken freebsd-update install installed with the
> one from 10.3-RELEASE (from the distribution base.txz:boot/kernel),
> which made the system entirely binary 10.3-RELEASE then I was able to
> freebsd-update to FreeBSD-10.3-RELEASE-p6 with no problems. Note that
> the initial freebsd-update from 10.0 also severely trashed my /etc, I
> had to restore master.passwd and friends! (many of /etc files were
> also truncated to 0), even though the merge process seemed to complete
> ok before the broken freebsd-update install.
> ___
>
>

I just experienced the same thing. Sent this to freebsd-questions last
night, no response yet, so thought I would also try here on this thread.
Here is my disaster from last night:


*Following this guide:*

https://www.freebsd.org/doc/handbook/updating-upgrading-freebsdupdate.html


# uname -a

FreeBSD 10.0-RELEASE-p9 FreeBSD 10.0-RELEASE-p9 #0: Mon Sep 15 14:35:52 UTC
2014 r...@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
amd64

*Run this command:*

# freebsd-update -r 10.4-RELEASE upgrade

# freebsd-update install

reboot


*Success...system came back up as 10.4*

# uname -a
FreeBSD 10.4-RELEASE-p3 FreeBSD 10.4-RELEASE-p3 #0: Tue Nov 14 09:43:55 UTC
2017 r...@amd64-builder.daemonology.net:/usr/obj/usr/src/sys/GENERIC
amd64

*Run this command one more time per the guide above:*

# freebsd-update install
Installing updates...Segmentation fault (core dumped)
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
Segmentation fault (core dumped)
Segmentation fault (core dumped)


*System is totally down and had to recover from snaphot*


*What on earth happened here?*
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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Mike Tancsa]

On 1/17/2018 8:43 AM, Pete French wrote:
> 
> Are you running the latest STABLE ? There were some patches for Ryzen
> which went in I belive, and might affect te stability. Specificly the
> chnages to stop it locking up when executing code in the top page ?

Hi,
I was testing with RELENG_11 as of 2 days ago.  The fix seems to be 
there

# sysctl -A hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage
hw.lower_amd64_sharedpage: 1

Would love to find a class of motherboard that pushes its "You dont need
to dork around with any BIOS settings. It just works.  Oh, and we have a
hardware watchdog too" ipmi would be stellar.

---Mike
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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Mike Tancsa]

On 1/17/2018 8:46 AM, Nimrod Levy wrote:
> I've been seeing similar issues on Ryzen and asked some questions,
> here 
> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2017-December/088121.html
> 
> My previous queries didn't go anywhere.  
> 

Thats not very promising :(  Googling around, shows lots of similar
reports both on FreeBSD and Linux, but its a lot of "I tweaked this BIOS
setting and so far so good" but nothing definitive / conclusive.  Having
to mess about with hardware settings for days on end hoping to fix
random lockups is  not good.

---Mike


-- 
---
Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400
Sentex Communications, m...@sentex.net
Providing Internet services since 1994 www.sentex.net
Cambridge, Ontario Canada   http://www.tancsa.com/
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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Nimrod Levy]

I've been seeing similar issues on Ryzen and asked some questions, here
https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-stable/2017-December/088121.html

My previous queries didn't go anywhere.

--
Nimrod

On Wed, Jan 17, 2018 at 8:38 AM Mike Tancsa  wrote:

> With the Intel issues exposed in meltdown, we were looking at possibly
> deploying some Ryzen based servers for FreeBSD.  We got a pair of
> ASUS PRIME X370-PRO and
>
> CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600X Six-Core Processor(3593.34-MHz
> K8-class CPU)
>   Origin="AuthenticAMD"  Id=0x800f11  Family=0x17  Model=0x1  Stepping=1
>
> Everything is at its default in the BIOS, no overclocking etc.
>
> However, we are seeing random lockups on both boxes. It doesnt seem to
> correspond with load/activity.  And its a hard lockup.  Keyboard not
> responsive and I cant break to serial debugger, so it doesnt seem to be
> an issue with something in the kernel going into deadlock.
>
> It sort of feels like a hardware issue, but it seems odd that both boxes
> are showing the same issue with random lockups like that.  It could be
> twice in a day or once every 3 days.
>
> Anyone have any insights ?  Anyone have any suggestions about better
> motherboards out there ? We are waiting for Supermicro's Epyc
> availability, but nothing yet.  It would be nice if we could find a
> board with at least some hardware watchdog on it.
>
>
> ---Mike
>
> --
> ---
> Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400 <(519)%20651-3400>
> Sentex Communications, m...@sentex.net
> Providing Internet services since 1994 www.sentex.net
> Cambridge, Ontario Canada   http://www.tancsa.com/
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>


-- 

--
Nimrod
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Re: Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Pete French]

I am in much the same situation as you (want to deploy Epyc, waiting for 
SM stuff to become available). I currently have here a set of parts to 
make a test Ryzen box, so you are ahead of me on that though. Should 
have that gong this week I hope.


Are you running the latest STABLE ? There were some patches for Ryzen 
which went in I belive, and might affect te stability. Specificly the 
chnages to stop it locking up when executing code in the top page ?


I'll get back to you when I have done some more testing...

-pete.

On 17/01/2018 13:38, Mike Tancsa wrote:

With the Intel issues exposed in meltdown, we were looking at possibly
deploying some Ryzen based servers for FreeBSD.  We got a pair of
ASUS PRIME X370-PRO and

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600X Six-Core Processor(3593.34-MHz
K8-class CPU)
   Origin="AuthenticAMD"  Id=0x800f11  Family=0x17  Model=0x1  Stepping=1

Everything is at its default in the BIOS, no overclocking etc.

However, we are seeing random lockups on both boxes. It doesnt seem to
correspond with load/activity.  And its a hard lockup.  Keyboard not
responsive and I cant break to serial debugger, so it doesnt seem to be
an issue with something in the kernel going into deadlock.

It sort of feels like a hardware issue, but it seems odd that both boxes
are showing the same issue with random lockups like that.  It could be
twice in a day or once every 3 days.

Anyone have any insights ?  Anyone have any suggestions about better
motherboards out there ? We are waiting for Supermicro's Epyc
availability, but nothing yet.  It would be nice if we could find a
board with at least some hardware watchdog on it.


---Mike


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Ryzen issues on FreeBSD ?

[Mike Tancsa]

With the Intel issues exposed in meltdown, we were looking at possibly
deploying some Ryzen based servers for FreeBSD.  We got a pair of
ASUS PRIME X370-PRO and

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 1600X Six-Core Processor(3593.34-MHz
K8-class CPU)
  Origin="AuthenticAMD"  Id=0x800f11  Family=0x17  Model=0x1  Stepping=1

Everything is at its default in the BIOS, no overclocking etc.

However, we are seeing random lockups on both boxes. It doesnt seem to
correspond with load/activity.  And its a hard lockup.  Keyboard not
responsive and I cant break to serial debugger, so it doesnt seem to be
an issue with something in the kernel going into deadlock.

It sort of feels like a hardware issue, but it seems odd that both boxes
are showing the same issue with random lockups like that.  It could be
twice in a day or once every 3 days.

Anyone have any insights ?  Anyone have any suggestions about better
motherboards out there ? We are waiting for Supermicro's Epyc
availability, but nothing yet.  It would be nice if we could find a
board with at least some hardware watchdog on it.


---Mike

-- 
---
Mike Tancsa, tel +1 519 651 3400
Sentex Communications, m...@sentex.net
Providing Internet services since 1994 www.sentex.net
Cambridge, Ontario Canada   http://www.tancsa.com/
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