Re: Open Vs Free BSD
OBSD is the best choice of OS for people who like violent little fish mascots. And it has blue-boot-console-thingy (tm) . Ace. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Open Vs Free BSD
-Original Message- From: owner-freebsd-sta...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-sta...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Kester Sent: 19 June 2009 20:24 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Open Vs Free BSD On Fri 19 Jun 2009 at 11:23:26 PDT Michael R. Wayne wrote: OK, I'm going to take a guess here that English may not be Michal's primary language and re-ask his question: Given the several versions of *BSD, I have been led to understand that each excells in different ways. How do I select which one is right for my application, what are the underlying reasons that would lead me to that choice and what are the the disadvantages I am risking? This is, actually, not an inappropriate question coming from a potential new user who is not familiar with the history surrounding the various versions and would make an outstanding FAQ. As an example, we run FreeBSD on our firewalling machines because it works well enough and we prefer the reduced support costs of using a single O/S across our network. I am unsure of what the advantage of moving to OpenBSD might be and would find it very difficult to quantify the advantages (if any) versus the increased support resources required. This is a very real issue. Linux has a similar problem; I've personally been in meetings where clients examined the myriad Linux distributions and say It's very likely that we will make the incorrect choice. So we'll go with Windows. I suspect similar events have occurred with *BSD. So, rather than jumping on people about them bringing up religous wars (because, face it, you CAN edit a file perfectly well in either vi or emacs :-), we'd all be better served by giving them enough information to make the right choice in their situation while realizing the tradeoffs they are making. I agree, this shouldn't necessarily be treated as flamebait or trolling. But shouldn't the question be redirected to the advocacy mailing list/team? -- Sorry, I would just like to add that English is my first and only language. As I said at a Terremark Europe meeting, (everyone else spoke [mostly] Dutch and English, I speak English and bad English. I think my dyslexia and general ignorance may have caused the confusion in my question. I was never asking WHO WINS WHO WINS, as I have multiple OS's running, more looking forward 2-5 years, upgrades and so forth, what should I take in to account. From the answers I have got, I've learn that I should ask my questions better, most importantly I think there, and OBSD may not have lots of packages but it has brilliant security. A desktop might be served better with Linux of FreeBSD, but at the end of the day, it's your horse, your course. You choose as you wish. I thank you all ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
Daniel Bolgheroni schrieb: On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Holger Kipp wrote: On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 09:47:35AM +0100, Michal wrote: For the masses: - NetBSD: Run on any hardware (including toasters) - OpenBSD: Be as secure as possible - FreeBSD: provide best system for x86-platforms It's a mistake to make this association. I don't think so: *NetBSD say on their website:* NetBSD is a free, fast, secure, and _highly_portable_ Unix-like Open Source operating system. It is available for a _wide_range_of_platforms_, from large-scale servers and powerful desktop systems to handheld and embedded devices. Its clean design and advanced features make it excellent for use in both production and research environments, and the source code is freely available under a business-friendly license. *OpenBSD say on their website:* The OpenBSD project produces a *FREE*, multi-platform 4.4BSD-based UNIX-like operating system. Our efforts emphasize portability, standardization, correctness, proactive security http://www.openbsd.org/security.html and integrated cryptography http://www.openbsd.org/crypto.html. *FreeBSD say on their website:* FreeBSD is an advanced operating system for _x86_compatible (including Pentium® and Athlon^(TM)), _amd64_compatible_ (including Opteron^(TM), Athlon^(TM)64, and EM64T), ARM, IA-64, PowerPC, PC-98 and UltraSPARC® architectures. [..] With over 20,000 ported libraries and applications http://www.freebsd.org/applications.html, FreeBSD supports applications for desktop, server, appliance, and embedded environments. Actually I like it this way, because every BSD variant has a different focus and is trying different ways to solve problems or fullfill user requirements. Whatever turns out to be best will be incorporated into the other *BSDs whenever the need arises. Each of the mentioned BSDs has its advantages and disadvantages, so what? Choose the system you seem best suited for your needs. Afaik some developers are also working on several BSD-flavours. OpenBSD people chose security as an argument to describe what the OS is. It's true and I believe it can attract more users, but on the other side, people seem to think OpenBSD is ONLY used when you need security, like a firewall, router, etc. OpenBSD was a fork of NetBSD but is having more of a focus on security. This is a good thing. We might not have OpenSSH, PF etc. without it. Afaik OpenBSD however is using a simple Giant Lock for MP which FreeBSD got rid of some time ago (wasn't an easy task) which now results in very good scalability of FreeBSD on MP systems. I have not checked how NetBSD is handling MP and have also not conducted any performance tests in this area, though. OpenBSD is a GENERIC OS which can be used to do _almost_ every task a computer system is able to. This is true for all unix-like (and many other) operating systems. I don't see the point here. The OP did not intend to start a flame war, and I don't either. I like OpenBSD (because of the security features and supported platforms). I like NetBSD (because of the supported platforms - especially RiscPCs - and the clean implementation). I like FreeBSD because of the many available ports (which in the past was a reason to choose FreeBSD over NetBSD or OpenBSD on x86-hardware) and for other reasons. There is no general a is better than b here. It all depends on the requirements and what you're familiar with. I prefer FreeBSD because I have ipf, ipfw and pf to chose from, it has good MP support, ZFS and never let me down since 2.2.8. I also use OpenBSD and NetBSD occasionally and support their projects by buying their CDs and T-Shirts ever now and then. Best regards, Holger ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
BWAAAHAHAHAHAH, what a bunch of retards Please stop sending this crap to OBSD lists. On Mon, 22 Jun 2009 10:55:14 +0200, Holger Kipp holger.k...@alogis.com said: Daniel Bolgheroni schrieb: On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Holger Kipp wrote: On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 09:47:35AM +0100, Michal wrote: For the masses: - NetBSD: Run on any hardware (including toasters) - OpenBSD: Be as secure as possible - FreeBSD: provide best system for x86-platforms It's a mistake to make this association. I don't think so: *NetBSD say on their website:* NetBSD is a free, fast, secure, and _highly_portable_ Unix-like Open Source operating system. It is available for a _wide_range_of_platforms_, from large-scale servers and powerful desktop systems to handheld and embedded devices. Its clean design and advanced features make it excellent for use in both production and research environments, and the source code is freely available under a business-friendly license. *OpenBSD say on their website:* The OpenBSD project produces a *FREE*, multi-platform 4.4BSD-based UNIX-like operating system. Our efforts emphasize portability, standardization, correctness, proactive security http://www.openbsd.org/security.html and integrated cryptography http://www.openbsd.org/crypto.html. *FreeBSD say on their website:* FreeBSD is an advanced operating system for _x86_compatible (including Pentium. and Athlon^(TM)), _amd64_compatible_ (including Opteron^(TM), Athlon^(TM)64, and EM64T), ARM, IA-64, PowerPC, PC-98 and UltraSPARC. architectures. [..] With over 20,000 ported libraries and applications http://www.freebsd.org/applications.html, FreeBSD supports applications for desktop, server, appliance, and embedded environments. Actually I like it this way, because every BSD variant has a different focus and is trying different ways to solve problems or fullfill user requirements. Whatever turns out to be best will be incorporated into the other *BSDs whenever the need arises. Each of the mentioned BSDs has its advantages and disadvantages, so what? Choose the system you seem best suited for your needs. Afaik some developers are also working on several BSD-flavours. OpenBSD people chose security as an argument to describe what the OS is. It's true and I believe it can attract more users, but on the other side, people seem to think OpenBSD is ONLY used when you need security, like a firewall, router, etc. OpenBSD was a fork of NetBSD but is having more of a focus on security. This is a good thing. We might not have OpenSSH, PF etc. without it. Afaik OpenBSD however is using a simple Giant Lock for MP which FreeBSD got rid of some time ago (wasn't an easy task) which now results in very good scalability of FreeBSD on MP systems. I have not checked how NetBSD is handling MP and have also not conducted any performance tests in this area, though. OpenBSD is a GENERIC OS which can be used to do _almost_ every task a computer system is able to. This is true for all unix-like (and many other) operating systems. I don't see the point here. The OP did not intend to start a flame war, and I don't either. I like OpenBSD (because of the security features and supported platforms). I like NetBSD (because of the supported platforms - especially RiscPCs - and the clean implementation). I like FreeBSD because of the many available ports (which in the past was a reason to choose FreeBSD over NetBSD or OpenBSD on x86-hardware) and for other reasons. There is no general a is better than b here. It all depends on the requirements and what you're familiar with. I prefer FreeBSD because I have ipf, ipfw and pf to chose from, it has good MP support, ZFS and never let me down since 2.2.8. I also use OpenBSD and NetBSD occasionally and support their projects by buying their CDs and T-Shirts ever now and then. Best regards, Holger ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
2009/6/22 Eric Furman ericfur...@fastmail.net BWAAAHAHAHAHAH, what a bunch of retards Please stop sending this crap to OBSD lists. That is surely one of the most brilliant replies I've ever seen from an advocacy@ address. Yes, I am being sarcastic. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
freebsd-stable is not an advocacy list. This is very off-topic. On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 7:06 PM, Daniel Bolgheronim...@dbolgheroni.eng.br wrote: On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Holger Kipp wrote: On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 09:47:35AM +0100, Michal wrote: For the masses: - NetBSD: Run on any hardware (including toasters) - OpenBSD: Be as secure as possible - FreeBSD: provide best system for x86-platforms It's a mistake to make this association. OpenBSD people chose security as an argument to describe what the OS is. It's true and I believe it can attract more users, but on the other side, people seem to think OpenBSD is ONLY used when you need security, like a firewall, router, etc. OpenBSD is a GENERIC OS which can be used to do _almost_ every task a computer system is able to. Teers, -- Daniel Bolgheroni m...@dbolgheroni.eng.br FEI - Faculdade de Engenharia Industrial http://www.dbolgheroni.eng.br/mykey ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) against HTML e-mail X / \ ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org -- When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle. Edmund Burke ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
On Fri, 19 Jun 2009, Holger Kipp wrote: On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 09:47:35AM +0100, Michal wrote: For the masses: - NetBSD: Run on any hardware (including toasters) - OpenBSD: Be as secure as possible - FreeBSD: provide best system for x86-platforms It's a mistake to make this association. OpenBSD people chose security as an argument to describe what the OS is. It's true and I believe it can attract more users, but on the other side, people seem to think OpenBSD is ONLY used when you need security, like a firewall, router, etc. OpenBSD is a GENERIC OS which can be used to do _almost_ every task a computer system is able to. Teers, -- Daniel Bolgheroni m...@dbolgheroni.eng.br FEI - Faculdade de Engenharia Industrial http://www.dbolgheroni.eng.br/mykey ASCII ribbon campaign ( ) against HTML e-mail X / \ ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Open Vs Free BSD
Someone once said this too me Comparing FreeBSD and OpenBSD, FreeBSD is generally better at disk-related I/O whereas OpenBSD handles net-I/O better. No test has been carried out to prove this though. Every offence to the person which said this, but they are not the best admin ever, though they like to think they are (the worst kind I think) Can anyone shed any light, the reason I ask is we where debating about a network and he said OpenBSD on the network (routers firewall etc) and FreeBSD as the app servers (mail, files etc etc), which I can see makes sense.but without having evidence it's pointless making a claim. Thanks :-) ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 09:47:35AM +0100, Michal wrote: Someone once said this too me Comparing FreeBSD and OpenBSD, FreeBSD is generally better at disk-related I/O whereas OpenBSD handles net-I/O better. No test has been carried out to prove this though. Every offence to the person which said this, but they are not the best admin ever, though they like to think they are (the worst kind I think) Ack! Can anyone shed any light, the reason I ask is we where debating about a network and he said OpenBSD on the network (routers firewall etc) and FreeBSD as the app servers (mail, files etc etc), which I can see makes sense.but without having evidence it's pointless making a claim. You might want to look here (although it is a bit old by now) http://forums.devshed.com/bsd-help-31/freebsd-openbsd-netbsd-darwin--the-definitive-answer-73907.html For the masses: - NetBSD: Run on any hardware (including toasters) - OpenBSD: Be as secure as possible - FreeBSD: provide best system for x86-platforms This might be the reason why generally speaking OpenBSD is recommended for network tasks (where security matters), FreeBSD for server tasks (especially on x86-systems) where the application must be available (very large ports collection), and NetBSD for every hardware that isn't mainstream. But because we always see code exchange between the BSD systems where appropriate, all systems get more secure over time, support more platforms, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_BSD_operating_systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_operating_systems Afaik MP-support in OpenBSD is much less optimized than in FreeBSD, especially as FreeBSD got rid of Giant Lock in most places since some time already. There are also old benchmarks available (2003), so this is mostly interesting from a historical point of view: http://bulk.fefe.de/scalability/ You might also want to check http://forums.2cpu.com/archive/index.php/t-17014.html http://people.freebsd.org/~kris/scaling/dfly.html http://people.freebsd.org/~kris/scaling/7.0%20and%20beyond.pdf for further information. Thanks :-) Regards, Holger ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
Hi, Well basically, you need to pay for additional security implementations, and this sometimes costs decrease in performance --- though i think i can always pay for that... Regards, Cem Kim Attree, 06/19/09 12:16: You'll struggle to find a proper apples-to-apples test to prove/disprove those statements, but commonly held BSD Lore states: FreeBSD offers the best performance, and it supports the most software. It's commonly used for web or file servers and desktops. Also, FreeBSD is more actively developed than the others. OpenBSD focuses on security. It runs on more platforms than FreeBSD, but less than NetBSD. Since security is the primary goal, it's excellent for routers and secure-by-default servers. Popular desktop applications like Mozilla and OpenOffice are supported, but don't expect every other Linux/UNIX program to work. NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. Kim Attree IT Manager Playsafe South Africa -Original Message- From: owner-freebsd-sta...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-sta...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Michal Sent: 19 June 2009 10:48 AM To: m...@openbsd.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Open Vs Free BSD Someone once said this too me Comparing FreeBSD and OpenBSD, FreeBSD is generally better at disk-related I/O whereas OpenBSD handles net-I/O better. No test has been carried out to prove this though. Every offence to the person which said this, but they are not the best admin ever, though they like to think they are (the worst kind I think) Can anyone shed any light, the reason I ask is we where debating about a network and he said OpenBSD on the network (routers firewall etc) and FreeBSD as the app servers (mail, files etc etc), which I can see makes sense.but without having evidence it's pointless making a claim. Thanks :-) ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
On Friday 19 June 2009 04:47:35 Michal wrote: Someone once said this too me Comparing FreeBSD and OpenBSD, FreeBSD is generally better at disk-related I/O whereas OpenBSD handles net-I/O better. No test has been carried out to prove this though. Every offence to the person which said this, but they are not the best admin ever, though they like to think they are (the worst kind I think) Can anyone shed any light, the reason I ask is we where debating about a network and he said OpenBSD on the network (routers firewall etc) and FreeBSD as the app servers (mail, files etc etc), which I can see makes sense.but without having evidence it's pointless making a claim. Thanks :-) Michal, What does it matter? If you aren't happy with the speed of either system you can get faster hardware. You should worry about which system is best for YOU, not how fast it is. Playing the speed game is a never ending. --STeve Andre' ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
and the security is in netbsd: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?security+8+NetBSD-5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~elad/recent/recent06.pdf On 6/19/09, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
I have used NetBSD several years on mainly amd64 platform, and these are + properties. - Xen support and boot NetBSD as dom0 and a Linux ie; Ubuntu as domU. - Clean design of rc.d scripts. Also NetBSD does not automatically populate rc.d scripts, user adds sample one (displayed after installing pkgsrc software). - Veriexec support. What is veriexec = It is set of hashes that kernel checks before deleting or running a (binary) file according to veriexec settings. - Clean documentation of CGD. Any noob user can easily configure cryptographic disk. - More stable pkgsrc softwares with respect to FreeBSD. - 32 bit and 64 bit linux emulation in amd64 port. It works almost perfectly. - More friendly mailing lists -- NetBSD people are patient somehow ;) Just someone should decide which specifications is more important for him/her. Hint: - No blob driver. - More and more security, hardly checked codes, fixed bugs (which leads to possible future holes, and later to hear 'it was fixed in OpenBSD 6 months ago') The answer is OpenBSD. Regards, Cem Oliver Pinter, 06/19/09 14:08: and the security is in netbsd: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?security+8+NetBSD-5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~elad/recent/recent06.pdf On 6/19/09, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
I agree. Thanks for reminding. I will not reply to this one anymore. Regards, Cem dem...@thephinix.org, 06/19/09 14:41: Oh why can't this versus this versus that never dies? There had been raging debate about which OSes is much better compared to the others since time immemorial. Sure, each one has its own merits over the others and vice versa. So why feeding this issue up since up to this very moment, there is no winner. and the security is in netbsd: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?security+8+NetBSD-5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~elad/recent/recent06.pdf On 6/19/09, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RE: Open Vs Free BSD
It wasn't an argument or a versus anything. It was just a question relating to what he had said and the truth in it and the two OS's being used for different reasons. That's all. No rage, no debate or looking for any winner! -Original Message- From: owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] On Behalf Of dem...@thephinix.org Sent: 19 June 2009 12:42 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; m...@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Open Vs Free BSD Oh why can't this versus this versus that never dies? There had been raging debate about which OSes is much better compared to the others since time immemorial. Sure, each one has its own merits over the others and vice versa. So why feeding this issue up since up to this very moment, there is no winner. and the security is in netbsd: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?security+8+NetBSD-5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~elad/recent/recent06.pdf On 6/19/09, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
Oh why can't this versus this versus that never dies? There had been raging debate about which OSes is much better compared to the others since time immemorial. Sure, each one has its own merits over the others and vice versa. So why feeding this issue up since up to this very moment, there is no winner. and the security is in netbsd: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?security+8+NetBSD-5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~elad/recent/recent06.pdf On 6/19/09, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
thus dem...@thephinix.org spake: Oh why can't this versus this versus that never dies? There had been raging debate about which OSes is much better compared to the others since time immemorial. Sure, each one has its own merits over the others and vice versa. Exactly. So why feeding this issue up since up to this very moment, there is no winner. The solution is very easy, IMHO... I have been quite 'radical' WRT the OS I chose to use in the past. I ran/run all, i.e. Net/Open/FreeBSD and DragonFly, among others. I took part in the BSD vs. GNU discussion in the past. But what I learnt during the years is this: * There's always a 'best choice' for the job. On the load balancer I choose OpenBSD, and on my GFs computer I install Ubuntu. Vice versa would not work. * Life's to short for those narrow-headed discussions. Timo and the security is in netbsd: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?security+8+NetBSD-5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~elad/recent/recent06.pdf On 6/19/09, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
On 19 Jun 2009, at 14:02, Timo Schoeler wrote: Sure, each one has its own merits over the others and vice versa. Above all, they contribute to the genetic diversity in the operating system pool. Which is a good thing. - Ruben ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 01:02:40PM +0100, Michal wrote: It wasn't an argument or a versus anything. It was just a question relating to what he had said and the truth in it and the two OS's being used for different reasons. That's all. No rage, no debate or looking for any winner! To be fair, the subject of your thread does suggest a battle. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
Michal escreveu: It wasn't an argument or a versus anything. It was just a question relating to what he had said and the truth in it and the two OS's being used for different reasons. That's all. No rage, no debate or looking for any winner! -Original Message- From: owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] On Behalf Of dem...@thephinix.org Sent: 19 June 2009 12:42 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; m...@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Open Vs Free BSD Oh why can't this versus this versus that never dies? There had been raging debate about which OSes is much better compared to the others since time immemorial. Sure, each one has its own merits over the others and vice versa. So why feeding this issue up since up to this very moment, there is no winner. and the security is in netbsd: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?security+8+NetBSD-5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~elad/recent/recent06.pdf On 6/19/09, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org The words you chose from the subject to the bottom of your e-mail, were the wrong ones Open Vs Free BSD for me, and for most here, is literally OpenBSD versus FreeBSD. The answer is: There is winner. The reason I started using OpenBSD is a very personal one, and it generally is for most of us here. Even in business the decisions are often made with the heart. So, you've got to try. I would never use OpenBSD in my laptop, because it doesn't do everything i need on my laptop. The same way i would never use ubuntu on my firewall, because it won't do neither. My 2 cents, -- Giancarlo Razzolini http://lock.razzolini.adm.br Linux User 172199 Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501 Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/ Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002 OpenBSD 4.5 Ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope 4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842 6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85 ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
RES: Open Vs Free BSD
All simply rocks...be xBSD... be Linux, be *nix... whatever.. Just use the right tool for a specific need... We are running Free, Open and Netand some decent Linux such as Debian, Red Hat among others...Love all of them... -Mensagem original- De: owner-freebsd-sta...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-sta...@freebsd.org] Em nome de Giancarlo Razzolini Enviada em: sexta-feira, 19 de junho de 2009 11:01 Para: Michal Cc: m...@openbsd.org; dem...@thephinix.org; freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Assunto: Re: Open Vs Free BSD Michal escreveu: It wasn't an argument or a versus anything. It was just a question relating to what he had said and the truth in it and the two OS's being used for different reasons. That's all. No rage, no debate or looking for any winner! -Original Message- From: owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] On Behalf Of dem...@thephinix.org Sent: 19 June 2009 12:42 To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org; m...@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Open Vs Free BSD Oh why can't this versus this versus that never dies? There had been raging debate about which OSes is much better compared to the others since time immemorial. Sure, each one has its own merits over the others and vice versa. So why feeding this issue up since up to this very moment, there is no winner. and the security is in netbsd: http://netbsd.gw.com/cgi-bin/man-cgi?security+8+NetBSD-5.0 http://www.netbsd.org/~elad/recent/recent06.pdf On 6/19/09, Ivan Voras ivo...@freebsd.org wrote: Kim Attree wrote: NetBSD runs on just about anything. That's it's primary goal. Since I don't have any weird hardware, I've never had a use for NetBSD. I don't use NetBSD either but some recent development that come from that camp are very interesting: * Journalling UFS (smart journalling, not gjournal) * PUFFS (BSD implementation of FUSE-like system [file system in userland]) * They had Xen dom0 and domU for years * They are starting to show decent results in SMP support, including a new scheduler (a bit similar to ULE); their GENERIC has SMP included * Possibly superpages, I'm not sure how to parse Merged amd64 and i386 pmap. Large pages are always used if available * I think they are working on their own ZFS port * They have ported or reimplemented Linux LVM (read+write+admin) There are of course other things; see for example http://www.netbsd.org/releases/formal-5/NetBSD-5.0.html I have a feeling the project has been revitalized in the last few years. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org The words you chose from the subject to the bottom of your e-mail, were the wrong ones Open Vs Free BSD for me, and for most here, is literally OpenBSD versus FreeBSD. The answer is: There is winner. The reason I started using OpenBSD is a very personal one, and it generally is for most of us here. Even in business the decisions are often made with the heart. So, you've got to try. I would never use OpenBSD in my laptop, because it doesn't do everything i need on my laptop. The same way i would never use ubuntu on my firewall, because it won't do neither. My 2 cents, -- Giancarlo Razzolini http://lock.razzolini.adm.br Linux User 172199 Red Hat Certified Engineer no:804006389722501 Verify:https://www.redhat.com/certification/rhce/current/ Moleque Sem Conteudo Numero #002 OpenBSD 4.5 Ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope 4386 2A6F FFD4 4D5F 5842 6EA0 7ABE BBAB 9C0E 6B85 ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 06:23:09AM -0400, STeve Andre' wrote: On Friday 19 June 2009 04:47:35 Michal wrote: Comparing FreeBSD and OpenBSD, FreeBSD is generally better at disk-related I/O whereas OpenBSD handles net-I/O better. No test has been carried out to prove this though. Every offence to the person which said this, but they are not the best admin ever, though they like to think they are (the worst kind I think) Can anyone shed any light, the reason I ask is we where debating about a network and he said OpenBSD on the network (routers firewall etc) and FreeBSD as the app servers (mail, files etc etc), which I can see makes sense.but without having evidence it's pointless making a claim. What does it matter? If you aren't happy with the speed of either system you can get faster hardware. You should worry about which system is best for YOU, not how fast it is. Playing the speed game is a never ending. OK, I'm going to take a guess here that English may not be Michal's primary language and re-ask his question: Given the several versions of *BSD, I have been led to understand that each excells in different ways. How do I select which one is right for my application, what are the underlying reasons that would lead me to that choice and what are the the disadvantages I am risking? This is, actually, not an inappropriate question coming from a potential new user who is not familiar with the history surrounding the various versions and would make an outstanding FAQ. As an example, we run FreeBSD on our firewalling machines because it works well enough and we prefer the reduced support costs of using a single O/S across our network. I am unsure of what the advantage of moving to OpenBSD might be and would find it very difficult to quantify the advantages (if any) versus the increased support resources required. This is a very real issue. Linux has a similar problem; I've personally been in meetings where clients examined the myriad Linux distributions and say It's very likely that we will make the incorrect choice. So we'll go with Windows. I suspect similar events have occurred with *BSD. So, rather than jumping on people about them bringing up religous wars (because, face it, you CAN edit a file perfectly well in either vi or emacs :-), we'd all be better served by giving them enough information to make the right choice in their situation while realizing the tradeoffs they are making. /\/\ \/\/ ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
Individuals in each of the camps (Free, Open, Net) are frequently deeply invested in their platforms of choice to the point where they identify with them. In addition, many if not most of us are only familiar with one of them. Thus, it isn't really fair to ask us to compare the three. You will enjoy more success by asking each of the three projects what their respective strengths are. Cheers, Kip ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Kip Macy km...@freebsd.org wrote: Individuals in each of the camps (Free, Open, Net) are frequently deeply invested in their platforms of choice to the point where they identify with them. In addition, many if not most of us are only familiar with one of them. Thus, it isn't really fair to ask us to compare the three. You will enjoy more success by asking each of the three projects what their respective strengths are. Cheers, Kip During reading of questions and answers to such comparison issues it is possible to observe one very important ( in my opinion , missing ) concept : In engineering , there is no an abstract better than concept by itself . As an example we may compare : bicycle , motorcycle , car , lorry , bus . aeroplane , boat , ship , transatlantic , train , ... Which one is better than the other one ? If you give an answer that x is better than y you are implicitly using a MEASURE of COMPARISON to solve a PROBLEM . When that the very MEASURE of COMPARISON for the PROBLEM is not specified , the abstract comparison is NOT useful and meaningful . For that reason , it is useful at the beginning to give a description of the problem in precise terms and then ask which tool solves this problem with respect to the others with respect to advantages and disadvantages of the tools . After enumerating these ideas it is possible to make decisions to select an appropriate one which solves the problem as much as possible . Thank you very much . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
On Fri 19 Jun 2009 at 11:23:26 PDT Michael R. Wayne wrote: OK, I'm going to take a guess here that English may not be Michal's primary language and re-ask his question: Given the several versions of *BSD, I have been led to understand that each excells in different ways. How do I select which one is right for my application, what are the underlying reasons that would lead me to that choice and what are the the disadvantages I am risking? This is, actually, not an inappropriate question coming from a potential new user who is not familiar with the history surrounding the various versions and would make an outstanding FAQ. As an example, we run FreeBSD on our firewalling machines because it works well enough and we prefer the reduced support costs of using a single O/S across our network. I am unsure of what the advantage of moving to OpenBSD might be and would find it very difficult to quantify the advantages (if any) versus the increased support resources required. This is a very real issue. Linux has a similar problem; I've personally been in meetings where clients examined the myriad Linux distributions and say It's very likely that we will make the incorrect choice. So we'll go with Windows. I suspect similar events have occurred with *BSD. So, rather than jumping on people about them bringing up religous wars (because, face it, you CAN edit a file perfectly well in either vi or emacs :-), we'd all be better served by giving them enough information to make the right choice in their situation while realizing the tradeoffs they are making. I agree, this shouldn't necessarily be treated as flamebait or trolling. But shouldn't the question be redirected to the advocacy mailing list/team? ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: Open Vs Free BSD
I agree, this shouldn't necessarily be treated as flamebait or trolling. But shouldn't the question be redirected to the advocacy mailing list/team? Yes. This list is for targeted technical questions. It isn't realistic to expect a discussion of this nature to stay on-topic. -Kip ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
