Re: Please remove Perl from ports
Am Thu, 1 Aug 2013 11:32:47 -0700 (PDT)
schrieb "Chris H" :
> Greetings Stephen, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.
> > On 08/01/2013 10:31 AM, Chris H wrote:
> >
> >> So, in the end; why did Perl have to be relocated? Is my only
> >> recourse at this point to
> >> # cd /
> >> # rm -rf .
> >
> > When I get into this kind of bad situation, I usually do something
> > slightly less drastic:
> > # pkg_delete -a
> > # find -d /usr/local -type d -exec rmdir {} \;
> > This last command removes empty directories in /usr/local (it also
> > produces lots of error messages when it tries to remove non-empty
> > directories). Then I look through the contents of /usr/local,
> > especially if there is anything in /usr/local/etc
> > or /usr/local/libexec where some of my manually changed
> > configuration files reside. And then I delete any crud left over
> > that I know I don't need.
> >
> > After that, I rebuild all the ports from scratch.
> >
> > Finally, I do understand why you feel the need to vent, and I don't
> > want to belittle your feelings of frustration. But I do think
> > everyone is trying their best.
> I believe this for the most part, as well. Being, and having been
> involved in a vast multitude of large projects, over the years. Has
> given me a keen understanding of all the burdens, one can come to
> expect. The many, many hours w/o sleep. The seemingly never ending
> stress that comes from frequently running right up to, or beyond
> deadlines. Having to greet rabid users with a calm tone, and a smile.
> As such, and with the nearly 30yrs. using *BSD, I have come to expect
> quite a bit more, than I have experienced, in recent months. Make no
> mistake; I have no intention of throwing the baby out w/ the bath
> water here. But *recent* changes have given me cause for alarm. That
> the BSD I have come to know, love, and greatly depend on. Is becoming
> something *quite* different. And if I don't say something, how will
> those the make the changes know what their user base thinks? How will
> they know what affects those changes has on them? Frankly, I *still*
> have no idea why it was _so_ important to change the install
> structure for Perl on FreeBSD.
I don't know either (I've yet switch-over allmost all my systems), but I
do believe that with the availability of pkgng, users who don't use it
are in for a _very_ rough ride. It's not written out anywhere
(TTBOMK), but the writing is on the wall.
That said, I honestly think that without pkgng, we ($work) would have to
ditch FreeBSD almost completely - simply because "/usr/sbin/pkg_*" are
useless once the number of systems you have outnumbers the number of
fingers on one hand.
While a case can be made that a lot of the problems can be scripted
around, a similar case can be made that all of it *just works* in
Ubuntu-land - and that even relieves you of the "burden" to build the
packages via poudriere (which is quite a bit of work, if you try to
bring some sense of API-stability to your systems by not just svn
up'ing ports every day and building that).
Transisition to pkgng has been very smooth for us, BTW.
___
freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
Greetings Stephen, and thank you for your thoughtful reply.
> On 08/01/2013 10:31 AM, Chris H wrote:
>
>> So, in the end; why did Perl have to be relocated? Is my only
>> recourse at this point to
>> # cd /
>> # rm -rf .
>
> When I get into this kind of bad situation, I usually do something
> slightly less drastic:
> # pkg_delete -a
> # find -d /usr/local -type d -exec rmdir {} \;
> This last command removes empty directories in /usr/local (it also
> produces lots of error messages when it tries to remove non-empty
> directories). Then I look through the contents of /usr/local,
> especially if there is anything in /usr/local/etc or /usr/local/libexec
> where some of my manually changed configuration files reside. And then
> I delete any crud left over that I know I don't need.
>
> After that, I rebuild all the ports from scratch.
>
> Finally, I do understand why you feel the need to vent, and I don't want
> to belittle your feelings of frustration. But I do think everyone is
> trying their best.
I believe this for the most part, as well. Being, and having been involved
in a vast multitude of large projects, over the years. Has given me a
keen understanding of all the burdens, one can come to expect. The many,
many hours w/o sleep. The seemingly never ending stress that comes from
frequently running right up to, or beyond deadlines. Having to greet rabid
users with a calm tone, and a smile. As such, and with the nearly 30yrs.
using *BSD, I have come to expect quite a bit more, than I have experienced,
in recent months. Make no mistake; I have no intention of throwing the
baby out w/ the bath water here. But *recent* changes have given me cause
for alarm. That the BSD I have come to know, love, and greatly depend on.
Is becoming something *quite* different. And if I don't say something, how
will those the make the changes know what their user base thinks? How
will they know what affects those changes has on them?
Frankly, I *still* have no idea why it was _so_ important to change the
install structure for Perl on FreeBSD. That the (possible) outcome of
such a change, should have little, no concern. I can assure you, I am not
an edge case. My first (recent) up(grade|date) experience caused me great
pain. I spent much time in the forums helping others. Sharing solutions
I have found. In fact, I try to spend as much time, as I can, helping
others in forums, with their (FreeBSD related) problems.
> I like to tell people that running FreeBSD or Linux
> is like owning a souped up sports car - usually it runs really well, but
> it often needs a lot of attention. (Windows is like driving a cheap car
> that breaks down all the time, but engine is designed in such a way as
> to be totally inaccessible with regards to repairs. And Apple is like
> driving a BMW - it mostly works well but you pay a lot for it.)
Easy does it. You're treading on shaky ground here. ;)
I'm rather fond of my 735i, and I couldn't imagine life w/o it.
In fact, I'm looking to replace the OBC with a FreeBSD powered version --
assuming the dust from recent events, settles down. :)
Best wishes, and thanks again for your reply.
--chris
>
>
___
freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Stephen Montgomery-Smith wrote: > When I get into this kind of bad situation, I usually do something > slightly less drastic: > # pkg_delete -a This is similar to what we do. However, we add the following step: pkg info -qoa | sort >/tmp/before-ports Then afterword we can feed that into pkg install to make sure we got everything back. (Making adjustments as needed for stuff like py-setuptools vs. py-distribute, which I've been doing a lot lately.) It is not possible to say enough good things about poudriere. It makes these problems go away. pkgng is also fantastic, though I will admit the inability to preserve shared libraries causes a lot of chaos every now and then if you have any binaries on your system *not* built from ports. Like the ones that do whatever your system actually *does* besides sit there and accrue uptime. The change from 5.14.x to 5.14 for the directory structure threw me for a loop (though overall I think it is a good change). That said, I can certainly see why somebody not using poudriere could be made miserable by it. If I understand it correctly, part of the rationale for the change was to make life better for those people in the future, because perl can't find Simple::XML because perl is 5.14.4 and Simple::XML is installed in the 5.14.3 directory is pretty maddening too. Many of us have probably been there; I certainly have. Long story short, poudriere is the only tool I've found with dependency tracking smart and patient enough to simply pave over those issues by rebuilding everything affected, then pkg is smart enough to reinstall everything affected just because a dependency changed. So while I too can sympathize with the frustration, and I know change sucks, and piling more change on top of that by switching from postmaster to poudriere when things used to mostly work sounds very unappealing. It is worth it! Add an additional exclamation point for each environment or system past one you manage with the same architecture, OS version, and package settings. Good luck! ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
Greetings Mark, and thank you kindly for your extremely thoughtful, and informative reply. > On Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 11:07, Chris H wrote: >> While that all sounds "dreamy". I don't think setting something >> like that up on a *half* up(graded|dated) server, should even be >> considered. Much less even possible. :( >> > > Oh, it's more than possible. > > 1) Install poudriere, minimal configuration if you have ZFS, bit more if > you use UFS > 2) # poudriere ports -c # creates ports tree for build env > 3) # poudirere jail -c -j your_buildjail_name -a arch -v X.X-RELEASE # > creates your build jail for your release+architecture > 4) put your /etc/make.conf in > /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/your_buildjail_name-make.conf > 5) copy your /var/db/ports (port options) to > /usr/local/etc/poudirere.d/your_buildjail_name-options/ > 6) poudriere bulk -j your_buildjail_name -f list_of_ports.txt > > wait a bit as it builds all your packages in a cleanroom environment > > 7) configure /usr/local/etc/pkg.conf to point to these packages > (file://usr/local/poudriere/data/packages/your_buildjail_name-default/) > 8) pkg update > 9) pkg upgrade > > that will probably fix you up, but there might be a small dragon or two Greatly appreciated. While it looks, at first, a bit daunting. I can't imagine a better introduction. Thanks again. --chris > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
On 08/01/2013 10:31 AM, Chris H wrote:
> So, in the end; why did Perl have to be relocated? Is my only
> recourse at this point to
> # cd /
> # rm -rf .
When I get into this kind of bad situation, I usually do something
slightly less drastic:
# pkg_delete -a
# find -d /usr/local -type d -exec rmdir {} \;
This last command removes empty directories in /usr/local (it also
produces lots of error messages when it tries to remove non-empty
directories). Then I look through the contents of /usr/local,
especially if there is anything in /usr/local/etc or /usr/local/libexec
where some of my manually changed configuration files reside. And then
I delete any crud left over that I know I don't need.
After that, I rebuild all the ports from scratch.
Finally, I do understand why you feel the need to vent, and I don't want
to belittle your feelings of frustration. But I do think everyone is
trying their best. I like to tell people that running FreeBSD or Linux
is like owning a souped up sports car - usually it runs really well, but
it often needs a lot of attention. (Windows is like driving a cheap car
that breaks down all the time, but engine is designed in such a way as
to be totally inaccessible with regards to repairs. And Apple is like
driving a BMW - it mostly works well but you pay a lot for it.)
___
freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
On Thu, Aug 1, 2013, at 11:07, Chris H wrote: > While that all sounds "dreamy". I don't think setting something > like that up on a *half* up(graded|dated) server, should even be > considered. Much less even possible. :( > Oh, it's more than possible. 1) Install poudriere, minimal configuration if you have ZFS, bit more if you use UFS 2) # poudriere ports -c # creates ports tree for build env 3) # poudirere jail -c -j your_buildjail_name -a arch -v X.X-RELEASE # creates your build jail for your release+architecture 4) put your /etc/make.conf in /usr/local/etc/poudriere.d/your_buildjail_name-make.conf 5) copy your /var/db/ports (port options) to /usr/local/etc/poudirere.d/your_buildjail_name-options/ 6) poudriere bulk -j your_buildjail_name -f list_of_ports.txt wait a bit as it builds all your packages in a cleanroom environment 7) configure /usr/local/etc/pkg.conf to point to these packages (file://usr/local/poudriere/data/packages/your_buildjail_name-default/) 8) pkg update 9) pkg upgrade that will probably fix you up, but there might be a small dragon or two ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
Greetings Patrick, and thank you for the reply. > Le Thu, 1 Aug 2013 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT), > "Chris H" a écrit : > >> Greetings, >> I currently manage several RELENG_8 servers. Recent changes in the >> manner in which base && ports must be managed have resulted in more >> than a fair amount of grief. the migration from cv(sup) --> subversion >> required re-working long standing, carefully crafted management >> procedures to be pitched to the trash, and re-invented. A recent >> change to the Perl installation structure presents an entire new set >> of headaches, rendering up(grading|dating) near, if not completely >> impossible. > > that's not new. A perl upgrade was always painful. > I suggest to use poudriere to build yours packages and pkgng to > manage them. As poudriere produces a consistent set of packages, > an upgrade is painless (pkg upgrade -f) and you can deploy them on > several machines. > > In fact poudriere and pkg saved me :) While that all sounds "dreamy". I don't think setting something like that up on a *half* up(graded|dated) server, should even be considered. Much less even possible. :( Thanks again, for taking the time to respond. --chris > > Regards. > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
Greetings Mark, and thank you for your thoughtful reply. > I can't comment on the perl changes directly, but I can assure you that > if you use port-mgmt/pkg (pkgng) and build your ports into packages via > ports-mgmt/poudriere you will have zero upgrade problems -- a simple > "pkg upgrade" will handle the scenario properly. I really haven't tried > following UPDATING with portmaster/portupgrade to see what happens. I'd > suspect that portmaster is doing something wrong, but further > investigation is really necessary to have a solid conclusion of what > happened on your server(s). While that sounds real nice. The *current* upgrade will need to *successfully* complete, before attempting to "jump tracks", and re-create an up(grade|date) policy. :) > > For the first time in ages the ports environment on FreeBSD is rapidly > evolving. There are many, many new features that benefit the whole of > the userbase and will ease support and deployment across the board. > We're trying to limit turbulence, but sometimes things are > unforeseeable. This is the nature of the incredible flexibility of > FreeBSD's ports; "there's more than one way to do something." Sounds a bit "Perlish". :) Thanks again. --chris > ___ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org" > ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
Le Thu, 1 Aug 2013 08:31:45 -0700 (PDT), "Chris H" a écrit : > Greetings, > I currently manage several RELENG_8 servers. Recent changes in the > manner in which base && ports must be managed have resulted in more > than a fair amount of grief. the migration from cv(sup) --> subversion > required re-working long standing, carefully crafted management > procedures to be pitched to the trash, and re-invented. A recent > change to the Perl installation structure presents an entire new set > of headaches, rendering up(grading|dating) near, if not completely > impossible. that's not new. A perl upgrade was always painful. I suggest to use poudriere to build yours packages and pkgng to manage them. As poudriere produces a consistent set of packages, an upgrade is painless (pkg upgrade -f) and you can deploy them on several machines. In fact poudriere and pkg saved me :) Regards. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
Re: Please remove Perl from ports
I can't comment on the perl changes directly, but I can assure you that if you use port-mgmt/pkg (pkgng) and build your ports into packages via ports-mgmt/poudriere you will have zero upgrade problems -- a simple "pkg upgrade" will handle the scenario properly. I really haven't tried following UPDATING with portmaster/portupgrade to see what happens. I'd suspect that portmaster is doing something wrong, but further investigation is really necessary to have a solid conclusion of what happened on your server(s). For the first time in ages the ports environment on FreeBSD is rapidly evolving. There are many, many new features that benefit the whole of the userbase and will ease support and deployment across the board. We're trying to limit turbulence, but sometimes things are unforeseeable. This is the nature of the incredible flexibility of FreeBSD's ports; there's more than one way to do something. ___ freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
