[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #14264] wish: border walls
Follow-up Comment #2, bug #14264 (project freeciv): This is dumb. We already have fortress + ZOC. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #14264] wish: border walls
Follow-up Comment #3, bug #14264 (project freeciv): A fortress (200% def) only give 50% more than fortifying, is only 1 tile wide and will allow enemies to go through unless there's a unit inside. If you disapprove, just say so ; there's no need to go into bashing. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #14264] wish: border walls
Follow-up Comment #4, bug #14264 (project freeciv): I'm sorry, but i tend to agree with akfaew. * A wall that is not defended by a military unit will pierced immediately by any attacker since at least the 1400s. Before then the art of siegecraft had not been learned. This is the only reason the Great Wall was effective - it kept out simple barbarians. * Speaking of the Great Wall, it seems like you want the benefits of the wonder without having to spend the points *or* send any patrols to the frontier. * There's no way an unmanned wall could confer vision, so you'd never know when it was destroyed unless you had units nearby. If you're going to have units nearby you may as well have a regular fortress, right? Now that i've said why i don't think such a wall would be very useful, i suppose we could discuss a new type of fortress that enemies can't move into. I'm not sure how the game engine could accommodate that other than implementing it as a unit with no move. Such a unit would have a low defense rating, no attack, and not emit a ZOC - remarkably like an Explorer. Why not just put an Explorer on the border? If it is in fact a unit with vision, there should be some sort of unit upkeep involved. If the unit doesn't move, how will it get from the city that builds it to the place where it will be installed? Otherwise it could be implemented as a type of fortress built by workers. In order for it to not be more beneficial than a regular fortress, it could be done as a terrain feature that is impassable to all land units. Air units would ignore it, of course. I still don't know if the game engine could allow an attacker to target an inanimate object, however. Alternately, it could be done as a fortress that could be occupied by friendly troops but not others. In that case, it is better than a regular fortress and thus should take longer to build - or else count it as part of a unit stack and destroy it when the occupying unit falls. It should naturally have a low defense rating when not occupied. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #14264] wish: border walls
Follow-up Comment #5, bug #14264 (project freeciv): Since ancient times there has been tunneling detection systems, which is quite complex ; how about in an imaginary world (don't know if it ever happened historically), there would be a simple rope system that upon wall bricks at a level fall down that some kind of detection system is triggered, be it cord belt or caged trained pigeons (the cage open then pigeon fly back to city). With bell-like system, it could require any unit (thinking of those without upkeep, spy with vision 2 being especially interesting) to be stationed every so wall length. Or worse case use any unit (with vision) to patrol next to the wall looking through tiny hole in it to look at incoming enemies. Even in modern warfare there is Dragon's teeth and Czech hedgehog. I don't think border fortifications (as opposed to a base) are to be neglected. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #14264] wish: border walls
Follow-up Comment #6, bug #14264 (project freeciv): DynV, you're making my case. Once you rely upon a fixed installation, you need to either staff the installation or have some improbably ornate method of notification. The Czech hedgehog and Dragon's teeth exist to slow down [not stop] vehicles. They have absolutely no effect on foot soldiers. Infantry is slowed by barbed wire, but Armor can roll right over it. It is assumed that all these items [and more] are part of a standard fortress in the game. Also please note this quote from Wikipedia regarding Dragon's teeth: In practice, the use of combat engineers and specialist clearance vehicles enabled them to be disposed of relatively quickly, and they proved far less of an obstacle than many had expected. In summary, these things can be removed quicker than they can be emplaced. Their function is, as i hinted at earlier, to slow the attacker long enough to allow the defender to get a few good shots in before open combat ensues. If you don't have a defending unit, all that metal and concrete is wasted. On a scale of one-year game turns, the few hours it takes to turn such defenses into rubble are effectively instantaneous. There have been specific eras when attackers have been stymied by defensive fortifications, such as World War 1 and trench warfare. For that reason alone, i think there could be a role for such techniques as part of appropriate scenarios. However, such eras are in the minority. There's a reason why the Great Wall of China was allowed to fall apart. Just a few years after WWI, France built the Maginot Line to defend itself against Germany. However not only did it not help, it cost so much that France's army was weakened as a result. ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #14264] wish: border walls
Follow-up Comment #1, bug #14264 (project freeciv): +1 ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #14264] wish: border walls
Update of bug #14264 (project freeciv): Priority: 5 - Normal = 1 - Later ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 ___ Message posté via/par Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
[Freeciv-Dev] [bug #14264] wish: border walls
URL: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 Summary: wish: border walls Project: Freeciv Submitted by: None Submitted on: Tuesday 09/08/2009 at 01:32 CEST Category: None Severity: 1 - Wish Priority: 5 - Normal Status: None Assigned to: None Originator Email: Open/Closed: Open Release: Discussion Lock: Any Operating System: None Planned Release: None ___ Details: wish: border walls units cannot move through/on walls walls can be built by workers/engineers can be destroyed by attacking, doesn't attack back ___ Reply to this item at: http://gna.org/bugs/?14264 ___ Message sent via/by Gna! http://gna.org/ ___ Freeciv-dev mailing list Freeciv-dev@gna.org https://mail.gna.org/listinfo/freeciv-dev
