Re: [Freedos-devel] Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0
In the discussion about what version to assign to the next release: It has been my understanding that the version number code x.y is defined as: x is the major number, which indicates a change in interface or function or some other large-scale impact, possibly with implications to backward compatibility. y is the minor number, which indicates an incremental improvement. By this notion, as long as FreeDOS is undergoing incremental improvements, it would stay 1.y, however large y might get. And therefore a 2.0 would reflect a large change to the way FreeDOS works. Perhaps the start of a movement away from the "same as MSDOS 6.22" objective. Or perhaps a major change in the structure, such as a rewritten kernel, that doesn't affect compatibility at all. Not that I can say MSDOS itself held to this principle. I was never aware of using versions of MSDOS with different major numbers, nor of the Borland compilers I always used having to issue an upgrade to accommodate a new DOS version, but I wasn't really paying attention, either. ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Grafx2 port to FreeDOS (alpha release)
It looks really interesting. I don't know if you noticed, but I posted a news item about it on the FreeDOS website. On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 5:09 PM Devin Racher via Freedos-devel < freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote: > Thank you for your nice note. I was/am hoping that it would be of benefit > to others and I am glad that I am able to contribute something to the > community after having received so much from them. > > -- > Sent with Tutanota, the secure & ad-free mailbox. > > > > Apr 2, 2022, 03:32 by r...@bttr-software.de: > > > Hi Devin, > > > >> I have been working on a FreeDOS port of Grafx2 > >> (http://grafx2.chez.com/index.php). The source code resides at: > >> https://github.com/deverac/grafx2-dos. A FreeDOS package (with sources) > >> resides at ./dist/grafx2.zip. > >> > > > > This is really cool you decided to do so! :-) Thanks! > > > > Cheers, > > Robert > > -- > > BTTR Software https://www.bttr-software.de/ > > DOS ain't dead https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/ > > > > > > ___ > > Freedos-devel mailing list > > Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel > > > > > > ___ > Freedos-devel mailing list > Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel > ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages
If you want my personal opinion, just distribute what more or less reproduces MS-DOS/PC DOS/DR DOS functionality as part of the release proper. -uso. ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Grafx2 port to FreeDOS (alpha release)
Thank you for your nice note. I was/am hoping that it would be of benefit to others and I am glad that I am able to contribute something to the community after having received so much from them. -- Sent with Tutanota, the secure & ad-free mailbox. Apr 2, 2022, 03:32 by r...@bttr-software.de: > Hi Devin, > >> I have been working on a FreeDOS port of Grafx2 >> (http://grafx2.chez.com/index.php). The source code resides at: >> https://github.com/deverac/grafx2-dos. A FreeDOS package (with sources) >> resides at ./dist/grafx2.zip. >> > > This is really cool you decided to do so! :-) Thanks! > > Cheers, > Robert > -- > BTTR Software https://www.bttr-software.de/ > DOS ain't dead https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/ > > > ___ > Freedos-devel mailing list > Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel > ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" help files
On Sat, Apr 2, 2022, 8:07 AM Wilhelm Spiegl wrote: > Hi everyone, > there is a corresponding question from me. I tried to reach Jim several > times, but till now I got no satisfying response, so I put the question > here: > > You emailed me? If you sent an off-list email in reply to a FreeDOS email list message, I may have missed it because the Subject would have appeared as a list message. (That's one reason I don't like off-list emails.) In FreeDOS help there are a lot of outdated commands. See: > http://home.mnet-online.de/willybilly/fdhelp-109/en/index.htm (my > website, don't worry about number 1.0.9, it is wrong) > > Which commands should stay in the new help files? Which can be removed? > Should there be a new sort order? > Changing all this will need a while, so this question is for preparing > myself and the other translators. > If you're asking in preparation for "FreeDOS Next" (whether that's 1.4 or 2.0 is too early to say) I think we first need to decide what commands we'll include. At the beginning of help I would like to add a short file: "FreeDOS for > Newbies in 10 minutes" which could explain how to navigate thru the system, > (cd, md, dir, fdconfig.sys, fdauto.bat, maybe path and codepages so that > they cannot say: "What a bs is this? I understand absolutely nothing."). > I *love* the idea of a short tutorial article about how to use FreeDOS, and making that part of the help. You can look through the Books page and reuse or remix (or edit it whatever) as part of the help. Jim ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
[Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" help files
Hi everyone, there is a corresponding question from me. I tried to reach Jim several times, but till now I got no satisfying response, so I put the question here: In FreeDOS help there are a lot of outdated commands. See: http://home.mnet-online.de/willybilly/fdhelp-109/en/index.htm (my website, don't worry about number 1.0.9, it is wrong) Which commands should stay in the new help files? Which can be removed? Should there be a new sort order? Changing all this will need a while, so this question is for preparing myself and the other translators. At the beginning of help I would like to add a short file: "FreeDOS for Newbies in 10 minutes" which could explain how to navigate thru the system, (cd, md, dir, fdconfig.sys, fdauto.bat, maybe path and codepages so that they cannot say: "What a bs is this? I understand absolutely nothing."). I personally would remove all commands of the old version that are in brackets, leave (in about) the base as Jim described: ambhelp ( 999.7 KiB , BASE, FULL ) append ( 41.8 KiB , BASE, FULL ) assign ( 55.1 KiB , BASE, FULL ) attrib ( 25.8 KiB , BASE, FULL ) chkdsk ( 421.8 KiB , BASE, FULL ) choice ( 44.2 KiB , BASE, FULL ) comp ( 15.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) cpidos ( 132.4 KiB , BASE, FULL ) ctmouse ( 269.4 KiB , BASE, FULL ) debug ( 192.4 KiB , BASE, FULL ) defrag ( 696.1 KiB , BASE, FULL ) deltree ( 39 KiB , BASE, FULL ) devload ( 80 KiB , BASE, FULL ) diskcomp ( 25.6 KiB , BASE, FULL ) diskcopy ( 202.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) display ( 76.2 KiB , BASE, FULL ) edit ( 130.7 KiB , BASE, FULL ) edlin ( 333 KiB , BASE, FULL ) exe2bin ( 33 KiB , BASE, FULL ) fc ( 72.2 KiB , BASE, FULL ) fdapm ( 65.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) fdhelper ( 24.4 KiB , BASE, FULL ) fdisk ( 227.4 KiB , BASE, FULL ) fdxms286 ( 45.9 KiB , BASE, FULL ) fdxms ( 55.7 KiB , BASE, FULL ) find ( 98.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) format ( 140 KiB , BASE, FULL ) freecom ( 2.7 MiB , BASE, FULL ) graphics ( 83.3 KiB , BASE, FULL ) himemx ( 41 KiB , BASE, FULL ) htmlhelp ( 2.2 MiB , FULL ) jemm ( 297.7 KiB , BASE, FULL ) kernel ( 754.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) keyb_lay ( 212.4 KiB , BASE, FULL ) keyb ( 56.2 KiB , BASE, FULL ) label ( 69.6 KiB , BASE, FULL ) lbacache ( 146.3 KiB , BASE, FULL ) mem ( 103.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) mirror ( 34.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) mkeyb ( 78.7 KiB , BASE, FULL ) mode ( 78.8 KiB , BASE, FULL ) more ( 56.2 KiB , BASE, FULL ) move ( 67.8 KiB , BASE, FULL ) nansi ( 63.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) nlsfunc ( 30.1 KiB , BASE, FULL ) print ( 24.7 KiB , BASE, FULL ) recover ( 335.8 KiB , BASE, FULL ) replace ( 29.4 KiB , BASE, FULL ) samcfg ( 79.4 KiB , FULL ) share ( 13.9 KiB , BASE, FULL ) shsucdx ( 65.2 KiB , BASE, FULL ) sort ( 34.2 KiB , BASE, FULL ) swsubst ( 116.9 KiB , BASE, FULL ) tree ( 74.8 KiB , BASE, FULL ) undelete ( 70 KiB , BASE, FULL ) unformat ( 30 KiB , BASE, FULL ) xcopy ( 67.1 KiB , BASE, FULL ) of course command.com commands, config and batch commands must stay, add an apps section: dn2 ( 2.7 MiB , FULL ) doszip ( 3.9 MiB , FULL ) fdimples ( 132.1 KiB , BASE, FULL ) fdshell ( 208 KiB , FULL ) fdtui ( 497 KiB , FULL ) imgedit ( 181.3 KiB , FULL ) pgme ( 882.6 KiB , FULL ) sqlite ( 3.8 MiB ) add an actual driver section (e.g. CD-ROM drivers), some are already on other positions of the actual help: cdrcache ( 59.3 KiB , FULL ) doslfn ( 367.4 KiB , FULL ) eltorito ( 4.1 KiB ) gcdrom ( 84.7 KiB ) himemsx ( 35.9 KiB ) hiram ( 86.8 KiB , FULL ) lfndos ( 141.1 KiB , FULL ) lptdrv ( 39.8 KiB , FULL ) ntfs ( 565.1 KiB , FULL ) rdisk ( 19.8 KiB ) shareext ( 32.7 KiB , FULL ) shsufdrv ( 100.5 KiB , BASE, FULL ) spool ( 20.4 KiB , FULL ) srdisk ( 218.9 KiB , FULL ) udvd2 ( 34.7 KiB , BASE, FULL ) uhdd ( 40.9 KiB , FULL ) uide ( 56.9 KiB ) usbdos ( 2.1 MiB , FULL ) xkeyb ( 173.6 KiB , FULL ) (maybe remove the network history and) replace it by the installed network commands / tools. arachne ( 4.7 MiB ) crynwr ( 2.6 MiB ) curl ( 6.8 MiB , FULL ) dillo ( 8.5 MiB ) dwol ( 8.7 KiB ) e1000pkt ( 52.6 KiB ) e100pkt ( 48.2 KiB ) etherdfs ( 58.5 KiB ) ethtools ( 187.7 KiB ) fdnet ( 816.1 KiB , FULL ) gopherus ( 1982.2 KiB ) htget ( 2.5 MiB ) links ( 13.1 MiB ) lsppp ( 99.4 KiB ) lynx ( 7.5 MiB ) m2wat ( 18.8 KiB ) mskermit ( 1236.2 KiB ) mtcp ( 1876.1 KiB , FULL ) newsnuz ( 54.5 KiB ) ntool ( 150.8 KiB ) picosntp ( 182.3 KiB ) picotcp ( 593.8 KiB ) ping ( 635.2 KiB ) rsync ( 1083.5 KiB ) ssh2dos ( 1682.9 KiB ) sshdos ( 1051.5 KiB ) terminal ( 56 KiB , FULL ) vmsmount ( 140.3 KiB ) vncview ( 533.6 KiB ) wattcp ( 149.8 KiB ) wget ( 2.4 MiB , FULL ) sound tools: adplay ( 342.2 KiB , FULL ) bladeenc ( 90.9 KiB ) cdp ( 68 KiB , FULL ) dosmid ( 271.1 KiB , FULL ) lame ( 1613.4 KiB ) mplayer ( 24.9 MiB , FULL ) opencp ( 1931.5 KiB , FULL ) Unix Like Tools cal ( 9.4 KiB , FULL ) du ( 12.5 KiB , FULL ) gnubc ( 183.2 KiB , FULL ) gnused ( 2.2 MiB , FULL ) grep ( 222.9 KiB , FULL ) head ( 21.7 KiB , FULL ) less ( 298.7 KiB , FULL ) md5sum ( 139.1 KiB , FULL ) minibox ( 376.8 KiB ) nro ( 42.2 Ki
Re: [Freedos-devel] Thinking about FreeDOS 2.0
Hello all, My ideal FreeDOS 2.0 would be something like this below. There might be some points that I’m not quite versed in, so bear with me. I would like the FreeDOS 2.0 release to make FreeDOS a single-repo, and coherent operating system with a unified design language and development guidelines. 1. Release Scheme As a user, I do not want to choose from many installation options. At most, I would like to see only 2+1: - FreeDOS boot floppy - FreeDOS - An image of extra utilities and games There should be no distinction between a USB and a CD image. There should be only one raw image that works everywhere. 2. Package Curation FreeDOS, by default, should offer a set of images, that are carefully curated, and gives the next best experience when compared to a GUI-less Linux/BSD installation, and should make it even better. Utilities should not be duplicated by feature, this would equal bloat. A minimal base system (other than the boot floppy) is simply unenthusiastic, and would do little to help advance FreeDOS; it will just keep it stagnating. If we want the DOS environment to thrive again, the system should be intuitive and helpful as possible. 3. Development Repository Upon selecting the packages above, move all those packages into a single FreeDOS development repository, and give every maintainer commit rights. This will be a great step to gather a development team, and make the development effort coherent, say, like Haiku. Some other nice steps to take: - Enforce a coding style - Improve NLS (this one already did a lot, thanks Jerome) - Create a HIG - Enable CI tasks, and create a new image after each commit 4. Fast Updates For machines with network access, it should be possible to update the system more frequently. Let’s not make it a rolling release, but rather make it possible to update without having to reinstall FreeDOS. It goes without saying, but new package installs should be easy and intuitive as well. 5. Feature Requests This would be my wishlist for FreeDOS 2.0: - Unicode support - Vertical and RTL text with complex scripts support - Nicer fonts with appropriate coverage for those above - UEFI support - Some sort of compatibility layer to enable reusing drivers from other operating systems, maybe one of BSD’s (this one should be the priority IMO) - Wi-Fi support 6. Development Environment FreeDOS setup should offer installing development packages and utilities. FreeDOS should strive to make DOS development on DOS viable, without having to resort to other OSs to compile and build stuff. We could start making a list of what is missing compared to other systems, and open tickets for those. There should be built-in tutorials, and example source code to help interested folks start FreeDOS development inside FreeDOS. Maybe a framework, something like FDKit? How does it sound? *** I guess this would be my ideal FreeDOS 2.0. Best regards, Emir (𐰽𐰺𐰍) ** E-mail needs to stay simple ** Use plain text e-mail ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages
+1 100% Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com/) secure email. --- Original Message --- On Saturday, April 2nd, 2022 at 3:41 AM, Maarten Vermeulen wrote: > I never really say anything here, but I feel like I should here. > > I do agree with Mike here. When I install a DOS, I just want it to be DOS, so > I always install just the base option with FreeDOS. Having less packages also > means you have more control over the software and the project. > > Yes, you have the choice between installing base, full, etc. However, if you > install full, you will get a lot of stuff that you will probably never use. > So the packaging people here are taking a lot of effort to make extra sure > more people will use less of their packaging work. > > There is some chart, I believe it's a bit of a joke, but it shows that people > only use like 10% of any software on a regular basis. That is a low amount. > And if that's already the case with base (which for me it is), then how about > full? > > Like Mike said, isn't it easier to just offer base and then provide a > repository with open source packages that people can choose from? It also > offers control over the project. And then there's the added benefit that > people who install the software from that repository, always get the newest > release of that software. > > Also, if someone has some proprietary text editor they really like, and want > to use it, it won't be in full. Those people will never install full, because > they will get six other editors installed on their system too. Or they will, > and they'll get those six other editors which they will never use and are now > using up precious disk space. > > When I use FreeDOS, I feel like a lot of choices are made FOR me. That's not > how I think software should be. Certainly not DOS. Six editors installed with > full? Why? Who is going to use all six editors? What is the chance that > someone will choose not to use those editors? Why does FreeDOS choose my > editors for me? I know I can choose not to use them, but they are installed > now, so what do I do? Delete them? You're introducing a lot of extra work and > thinking steps for the user this way. > > Even Windows 10, which installs games and software on first start-up, that no > one has asked for, at least is nice enough to install only one from each > category. > > If you want one package from full, you have to install the entire category > and uninstall the rest, or uncheck them from a screen. I don't want to. > > There are a lot of people that use FreeDOS just because it's a DOS, and not > because it's libre or free. Libre also means freedom. To me that also refers > to having the libre to choose your own packages. > > Less is more. > > - Maarten > > PS: I used editors in my examples but pick any category you like.___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] Grafx2 port to FreeDOS (alpha release)
Hi Devin, > I have been working on a FreeDOS port of Grafx2 > (http://grafx2.chez.com/index.php). The source code resides at: > https://github.com/deverac/grafx2-dos. A FreeDOS package (with sources) > resides at ./dist/grafx2.zip. This is really cool you decided to do so! :-) Thanks! Cheers, Robert -- BTTR Software https://www.bttr-software.de/ DOS ain't dead https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/ ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
Re: [Freedos-devel] "FreeDOS Next" packages
I never really say anything here, but I feel like I should here. I do agree with Mike here. When I install a DOS, I just want it to be DOS, so I always install just the base option with FreeDOS. Having less packages also means you have more control over the software and the project. Yes, you have the choice between installing base, full, etc. However, if you install full, you will get a lot of stuff that you will probably never use. So the packaging people here are taking a lot of effort to make extra sure more people will use less of their packaging work. There is some chart, I believe it's a bit of a joke, but it shows that people only use like 10% of any software on a regular basis. That is a low amount. And if that's already the case with base (which for me it is), then how about full? Like Mike said, isn't it easier to just offer base and then provide a repository with open source packages that people can choose from? It also offers control over the project. And then there's the added benefit that people who install the software from that repository, always get the newest release of that software. Also, if someone has some proprietary text editor they really like, and want to use it, it won't be in full. Those people will never install full, because they will get six other editors installed on their system too. Or they will, and they'll get those six other editors which they will never use and are now using up precious disk space. When I use FreeDOS, I feel like a lot of choices are made FOR me. That's not how I think software should be. Certainly not DOS. Six editors installed with full? Why? Who is going to use all six editors? What is the chance that someone will choose not to use those editors? Why does FreeDOS choose my editors for me? I know I can choose not to use them, but they are installed now, so what do I do? Delete them? You're introducing a lot of extra work and thinking steps for the user this way. Even Windows 10, which installs games and software on first start-up, that no one has asked for, at least is nice enough to install only one from each category. If you want one package from full, you have to install the entire category and uninstall the rest, or uncheck them from a screen. I don't want to. There are a lot of people that use FreeDOS just because it's a DOS, and not because it's libre or free. Libre also means freedom. To me that also refers to having the libre to choose your own packages. Less is more. - Maarten PS: I used editors in my examples but pick any category you like. ___ Freedos-devel mailing list Freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-devel
