Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Paul Dufresne via Freedos-devel]

I have taken a short look at: (gnuchess source for showing board)

http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/chess.git/tree/src/frontend/output.cc



and did not have "the feeling" it was using ANSI anymore.



But then according to:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/micro/pc-stuff/freedos/files/repositories/1.3/pkg-html/gnuchess.html



our version is 4.0, and current is: 6.2.8 ( https://www.gnu.org/software/chess/ 
)



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[tom ehlert]

>> there is absolutely no need to waste memory for everybody just because 
>> someone might try GNUCHESS.

> Why doesn't a program, that uses ansi.sys (or an equivalent), check for
> its presence?! :-) I found INT 2Fh, AX=1A00h for this purpose.

because it uses escape sequences, not ANSI. ANSI just implements these
escape sequences.

but it could as well be a maschine where COM1 is connected to a serial
terminal, and

CTTY COM1

redirected input and output to the terminal. no ANSI involved at all.



Tom



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Joe Forster/STA]

Hi guys,

there is absolutely no need to waste memory for everybody just because 
someone might try GNUCHESS.


Why doesn't a program, that uses ansi.sys (or an equivalent), check for 
its presence?! :-) I found INT 2Fh, AX=1A00h for this purpose.


Joe
--
KOVÁCS Balázs aka Joe Forster/STA; s...@c64.rulez.org; http://sta.c64.org
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[tom ehlert]

> But again, avoid all those hassles by always loading
> NANSI. That is a lot better than BANNING ALL apps
> which use ANSI "because they could confuse users"!
> ANSI even is a standard part of MS DOS. It is "base"!

as we haven't seen complains about escape sequences on the screen for
a LONG time, I assume either

a) there are no longer programs using escape sequences

or

b) users know to load NANSI when they see escape sequences

there is absolutely no need to waste memory for everybody just because
someone might try GNUCHESS.

Tom





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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Mercury Thirteen via Freedos-devel]

On Wednesday, June 16th, 2021 at 8:18 PM, Jim Hall jh...@freedos.org wrote:

> ...
>
>> [..]
>>
>> Sorry but that thread about which games may or may
>>
>> not work is frustrating me given that there always
>>
>> seems to be SOME context in which some games fail.
>
> Ending up with weird graphics on VirtualBox is okay if it's just a
>
> VirtualBox config. That's why I was asking if someone who knows more
>
> about VirtualBox can suggest a config for me to use. I don't use
>
> VirtualBox most of the time, so I'm unfamiliar with it. I've tried
>
> changing the graphics controller option in VirtualBox - there are only
>
> a few options - but I'm not getting it.

As my bare-metal DOS hardware is down at the moment, at this point in time I 
use FreeDOS exclusively in VirtualBox. Perhaps I can poke around in the video 
settings in the coming days and see if I can uncover anything.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Jim Hall]

>
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2021, Eric Auer wrote:
>
> > If you really worry about people getting confused by GNUCHESS, but
> > really refuse to load NANSI by default, you could simply provide a batch
> > file to first load NANSI, then GNUCHESS and bundle that batch file with
> > GNUCHESS. You can even make that batch file check whether NANSI already
> > is loaded.
>

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:15 PM Steve Nickolas  wrote:
> My personal opinion is that on DOS, GNUCHESS should be adjusted to use
> something like conio instead of requiring ansi.sys, which is really a
> hack.


+1

Agree. This is clearly a port of the conio version of GNU Chess from
Unix systems. Doing it with ANSI esc sequences was probably their
fastest way to port it, but not idea for a native DOS application.


Jim


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Jim Hall]

(This was sent to me off-list, but it belongs with the rest of the
discussion, so I am replying to the list)

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:39 PM Eric Auer  wrote:
>
>
> Jim,
>
> >>> I know a lot of FreeDOS users
> >>> are using VirtualBox.
>
> >> Why, actually?
>
> > Probably because it's free and has a graphical interface
> > and runs on popular operating systems.
>
> Just like Bochs, QEMU, DOSBOX, DOSEMU2 and others?
>

QEMU is available for Windows and Mac. I know Bochs, but I don't know
how many other people do; Bochs is available for Linux and Windows,
but not Mac.

DOSEMU and DOSEMU2 are only available for Linux. And unfortunately,
Linux doesn't have the same marketshare that Windows does.


> Not sure what you mean by graphical interface, can
> you edit the config by mouse? Apparently one can
> not edit the option which make VGA work that way?
>

That's right, VirtualBox is a point-and-click interface. You can see
screenshots in the wiki:
http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/VirtualBox


> [..]
> Sorry but that thread about which games may or may
> not work is frustrating me given that there always
> seems to be SOME context in which some games fail.
>

Ending up with weird graphics on VirtualBox is okay if it's just a
VirtualBox config. That's why I was asking if someone who knows more
about VirtualBox can suggest a config for me to use. I don't use
VirtualBox most of the time, so I'm unfamiliar with it. I've tried
changing the graphics controller option in VirtualBox - there are only
a few options - but I'm not getting it.


> I have filed a bug report which made DOSEMU2 people
> repair the Paku Paku graphics, now you complain that
> "please send me a postcard" would be unacceptably
> commercial for an explicitly public domain (!) game.
>[..]

The concept of "cardware" and "beerware" is not new, and there's been
lots of conversations elsewhere about how this is not "open source."
You can find similar discussions in Linux distro email lists. For
example, I know Fedora had a similar conversation some years ago.

And games are not supposed to be a big deal. Games aren't "core" like
other parts of the operating system. And games become popular or not
pretty quickly, depending on the game. A currently popular game might
not be so popular next year. Whatever. Swapping out a game shouldn't
be a major emotional investment.

Jim


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Jim Hall]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 6:03 PM Eric Auer  wrote:
>
> > Not saying we don't include it, just that the palette
> > is off in VirtualBox.
>
> You do not solve bugs in VirtualBox by telling users
> that they may only play the three games where you do
> not notice that VirtualBox is broken. Just make sure
> that people configure their VirtualBox properly or,
> if it really has a bug, that bug gets fixed.
>

???

I wasn't saying to get rid of the game because of a silly graphics
issue on VirtualBox. I already said that I was identifying a graphics
issue when I run it under VirtualBox. I'm sure it's a config issue on
my end. If there's a VirtualBox user here who can suggest something I
can try to get the graphics to look right, that would be great.

And if we know what VirtualBox config works well, we might recommend
that to people who try FreeDOS - such as on the Wiki where it has
instructions for how to install FreeDOS in VirtualBox.
(http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/VirtualBox)


> > It's just the graphics look weird in VirtualBox.
>
> Maybe people should not use VirtualBox for DOS games.
>

Well, that's not realistic to all the people out there running
VirtualBox to boot FreeDOS. :-)


> > would really love to know why the graphics are
> > weird in VirtualBox. I know a lot of FreeDOS users
> > are using VirtualBox.
>
> Why, actually?
>

Probably because it's free and has a graphical interface and runs on
popular operating systems. For example, their downloads page
(https://www.virtualbox.org/wiki/Downloads) has binaries for Windows,
Mac, and several Linux distros. I think most people in 2021 who use
Windows or MacOS probably prefer using a graphical interface (menus
and such) to use programs, including programs like VirtualBox.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Steve Nickolas]

On Thu, 17 Jun 2021, Eric Auer wrote:

If you really worry about people getting confused by GNUCHESS, but 
really refuse to load NANSI by default, you could simply provide a batch 
file to first load NANSI, then GNUCHESS and bundle that batch file with 
GNUCHESS. You can even make that batch file check whether NANSI already 
is loaded.


My personal opinion is that on DOS, GNUCHESS should be adjusted to use 
something like conio instead of requiring ansi.sys, which is really a 
hack.


-uso.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jim,

>>> * GNU Chess (a chess game) doesn't seem to work for me. When I
>>> ran GNUCHESS.EXE I got a bunch of ANSI esc codes printed...
>>
>> Then you probably have to load NANSI. Easy solution, no? ;-)

Actually NANSI also makes your console output FASTER
in DOS in general, so we should probably just load
it all the time. If you really worry about people
getting confused by GNUCHESS, but really refuse to
load NANSI by default, you could simply provide a
batch file to first load NANSI, then GNUCHESS and
bundle that batch file with GNUCHESS. You can even
make that batch file check whether NANSI already is
loaded.

But again, avoid all those hassles by always loading
NANSI. That is a lot better than BANNING ALL apps
which use ANSI "because they could confuse users"!
ANSI even is a standard part of MS DOS. It is "base"!

> Not saying we don't include it, just that the palette
> is off in VirtualBox.

You do not solve bugs in VirtualBox by telling users
that they may only play the three games where you do
not notice that VirtualBox is broken. Just make sure
that people configure their VirtualBox properly or,
if it really has a bug, that bug gets fixed.

> It's just the graphics look weird in VirtualBox.

Maybe people should not use VirtualBox for DOS games.

In DOSEMU2, which emulates both a built-in int 33 and
some PS/2 mouse visible to CTMOUSE, Liquid Wars will
work both with and without CTMOUSE, but I only seem
to get mouse action in the menu.

Unfortunately, nobody has built the HTML, PDF or TXT
of the documentation for DOS! But in the XML source
code of the documentation, you can read that it is
INTENTIONAL that the mouse does not move the cursor
inside the game, only inside the menu. The reason:

The cursor is only allowed to move step by step and
a mouse cursor would be able to move too fast. You
can enable the mouse in 4-player Teams mode, though.

Click a direction "key" you want to define and move
the mouse instead of typing a keyboard key to assign.
This turns mouse movements to virtual keypresses and
it will still depend on whether you hit walls whether
the cursor will actually move in your mouse direction.

> would really love to know why the graphics are
> weird in VirtualBox. I know a lot of FreeDOS users
> are using VirtualBox.

Why, actually?

Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jim,

>> PAKU PAKU By Jason M. Knight, Paladin Systems North.
>> Version 1.6 - 9 November, 2011
>>
>> Halted: Graphics Sound Timer - Releasing Memory - Complete
>> This game is released as "Cardware". If you enjoy it please send a postcard 
>> to:

It says IF you ENJOY it then PLEASE send a postcard.

This is not a required registration and it does not
override the following:

>> Source Code (C) Jason M Knight and released to the public domain. If you are
>> going to give something away, lands sake just GIVE IT AWAY!!!.

Can he be any more clear about giving it away?

> Also: The exit message says the source code is both "copyright" (C)
> and released into the public domain. You can't have both.

You cannot do the copyleft "inverted (C)" sign in DOS text mode.

> If you release something into the public domain, you give up
> all rights.

That settles all other questions.

> So which is it? Is the software "cardware" (only enforceable if you
> claim copyright) or is it "public domain"? You can't have both. And
> unless Jason M. Knight is here to clarify, we can't provide insight
> to intent.

It is public domain, as clearly stated in the license. Do not condemn
people for mentioning that they love postcards and thereby "tainting"
the purity of their gift to the public domain...

Solving your paranoia about the license by rejecting a perfectly
fun clone of Pacman is not what makes the distro any better.

> I don't believe changing just the documentation will be enough here.
> The game prints this message, which is precompiled into the game exe:
> 
>> Please note that Beyond the Titanic is a SHAREWARE game.

Try to sue the authors for improperly freeing their own game ;-)

> There are several red flags that point to this being a shareware game.
> The biggest red flag is there on the top line: it says it's shareware.
> It even puts it in ALL CAPS so you don't miss it.

The question is whether those who made it free and open
source actually own the copyright. As they also released
the source, they are in any case not just some weirdos
who confuse abandonware with freeware. Chances are that
the actual authors wanted to liberate their software.

The problem is: Will you be able to contact them to get
a waterproof license and binary from them?

We are having the same problem with AHCICD right now.

The survivors of the author have uploaded unchanged
sources and binaries to a website which clearly states
that nobody should try to pay for registration, while
everybody should enjoy the software including source,
but because they are no programmers, they have not
changed and copyright messages displayed by the old
binaries and, alas, not even the old readme files.

> Eric seems to have a lot of time and seems vested in trying to
> keep these games, so perhaps Eric can do this.

Nope. I already wasted a lot of time to recompile NGE
Nibbles and there still are some people breathing in
my neck that I have to fix the documenation of THAT
to properly adhere to the license of NGE Nibbles.

At the same time, I am trying to resist the temptation
to make NGE Nibbles use PCX instead of RAW graphics.

Wondering whether that would also force me to create
PCX versions of the grabbers to keep the toolchain in
the source code semi-complete: The original tools to
draw the artwork are unknown anyway, so I could just
convert the art and put a note somewhere that artists
will have to SOMEHOW convert the raw files produced
by the grabbers into PCX now. If they want to use the
grabbers while producing new artwork at all, that is?

This could also be TGA instead of PCX. In both cases,
the game would only be able to load SOME of the various
flavors of compression, color depth etc. of the format.

Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Jim Hall]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 5:10 PM Steve Nickolas  wrote:
>
> Here's the problem, as I see it.
>
> A lot of people misuse the terms "open source" and "public domain".  They
> say "open source" when they mean source-available (it may not be open, if
> it is not as I describe "freedom-compliant"), and they say "public domain"
> when they mean freeware.
>[..]
> Err on the side of caution, IMO: if the intent is ambiguous, assume the
> less free interpretation.
>

+1
I agree.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Jim Hall]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 3:59 PM Eric Auer  wrote:
> > * has issues:
> > gnu chess
> > Kraptor
> > Liquiwar
> > magnetic
> > mirror magic

To be clear, the "has issues" are not "license issues." These are
games that I had "issues" with while trying them on VirtualBox. See
below that some work fine on QEMU.


> > * remove: (license issues)> pakupaku [see suggestion]
>
> If possible, solve the license issue (I think there
> is none, see my other mail) and keep it. It is a good
> example for 160x100 text graphics and thereby a good
> test case for hardware emulator quality :-)

It can be a good test case for hardware emulator compatibility, but
not be in the distribution. See my other note for my concerns on the
"license."


> > * GNU Chess (a chess game) doesn't seem to work for me. When I
> > ran GNUCHESS.EXE I got a bunch of ANSI esc codes printed...
>
> Then you probably have to load NANSI. Easy solution, no? ;-)

That's right, and that wasn't my issue. I can load NANSI and it works
fine (except for a "transposition table" warning message that blocks
part of the board). My point is that we don't load NANSI by default,
so anyone who tries to run this game will get confused when it doesn't
display like a normal DOS program and instead prints the esc commands.
I don't have a problem with the license for GNU Chess - I was only
pointing out the issue of the esc sequences.

My suggestion to remove it is more about practicality. If we keep GNU
Chess, how many questions will we have to field because someone tried
to run the game and "it just prints funny characters"? We haven't had
a flood of people asking this yet, so maybe it won't happen. So I'm
asking the question: is it better to remove the game and pick another
one, or keep it and deal with any questions/criticisms as they come
up?

*I don't think we should enable NANSI by default, either. Doing so
uses memory when most users will never need NANSI support anyway.


> > * Kraptor has weird graphics, like the palette isn't displaying
> > properly. The palette was so weird that...
>
> It works fine in DOSEMU2, report bug in VirtualBox?
> The game is a clone of the classic space shooter:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor:_Call_of_the_Shadows

Yes, and it works fine for me in QEMU. Weird that the palette displays
weird in VirtualBox. But I don't usually run VirtualBox, so maybe I'm
not setting something up correctly.

It is actually a fun game (playing on QEMU) with sound and everything.
Not saying we don't include it, just that the palette is off in
VirtualBox.


>
> > * Liquiwar (some sort of strategy game?) has the same palette problem
> > I mentioned earlier. I reset the virtual machine to use VBoxSVGA,
> > thinking the game was trying to use SVGA capabilities that standard
> > VGA couldn't handle, but got the same result. Hangs when I try to
> > quit using the "Exit to DOS" button.
>
> Graphics work fine in DOSEMU2, again a VirtualBox VGA bug?
> You play by moving the red circle with the keyboard to
> attract your red paint and spread it over the field, but
> the computer opponent has far better strategy than I do.
> You could also navigate by mouse or joystick, I think.

I've played this before, maybe in the RC3 - but using QEMU. It's a
good game. It's just the graphics look weird in VirtualBox. Maybe
another VirtualBox user can suggest what I need to do to get graphics
to look right.

I also tried Liquiwar in QEMU, and it hangs when I try to start a new
game - but only when I have ctmouse loaded. If I reboot and unload
ctmouse, the game works fine with the keyboard. Not sure what the
problem is there.


> > * Mirror Magic displays some graphics in black and white. I *think*
> > there's some graphical text there, but I can't read it, so I can't
> > figure out what to do. I can't exit with the Esc key. Not sure what to
> > do here. Had to reboot the virtual machine. I'm wondering if we need
> > this game, or can we find another game to replace it?
>
> Mirror Magic works perfectly for me in DOSEMU2, has a very
> "sweet" color scheme with tones of red, green, blue, yellow.
> You play by L/R clicking on mirrors to rotate them to direct
> your beam to the balls, which also involves reflecting and
> non-reflecting surfaces, rotating grids, teleporters etc.
>
> If you reflect the beam back to yourself or hit red things,
> you start to overheat. Sometimes hitting balls makes blocks
> vanish elsewhere, helping you to reach the goal of directing
> the beam to the receiver. Even the first level took a while.

Playing this on QEMU was much better. The graphics were great, and the
game is pretty fun. Definitely requires a mouse.

I think keep it. But would really love to know why the graphics are
weird in VirtualBox. I know a lot of FreeDOS users are using
VirtualBox.


> > * Vertigo is a flight sim game. Maybe I did something wrong at the
> > controls, but it made a little "crash" noise, then the game became
> > unresponsive. Not sure how to play this. GNU GPL

Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Steve Nickolas]

Here's the problem, as I see it.

A lot of people misuse the terms "open source" and "public domain".  They 
say "open source" when they mean source-available (it may not be open, if 
it is not as I describe "freedom-compliant"), and they say "public domain" 
when they mean freeware.


When I say something is public domain, I add the phrase "all copyrights 
are disclaimed" to make it clear and unambiguous that it is indeed "public 
domain" that I meant and intended.  In one case I also added a CC0 logo to 
make it not only doubly but triply clear what my intention was (in a sort 
of Lewis Carrollian "what I say three times is true").


Err on the side of caution, IMO: if the intent is ambiguous, assume the 
less free interpretation.


-uso.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Jim Hall]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 3:27 PM Eric Auer  wrote:
>
>
> Hi!
>
> I think given that Paku Paku sources are public domain,
> there is no problem with the author asking to send a
> postcard if you like it. You are free to not send a
> postcard, after all. Making a new release without the
> "restriction" that the author mentions being glad about
> feedback seems unnecessary and I would not condemn the
> author for asking for a postcard or trying to "hide"
> that wish by doing a new release.
>

I'm uncomfortable with the "cardware" license. It actually introduces
more questions about the license than if the author had simply
declared it as public domain. The full text is:

>PAKU PAKU By Jason M. Knight, Paladin Systems North.
>Version 1.6 - 9 November, 2011
>
>Halted: Graphics Sound Timer - Releasing Memory - Complete
>This game is released as "Cardware". If you enjoy it please send a postcard to:
>
>[address]
>
>Source Code (C) Jason M Knight and released to the public domain. If you are
>going to give something away, lands sake just GIVE IT AWAY!!!. Don't give me
>none of that dirty hippy "open source" nonsense! Here's a tip: If someone
>starts running their mouth about "Freedom" and then weigh it down with a 35k
>licensing agreement placing restrictions on what you can and cannot do with it
>by way of loopholes in contract law and legalese nobody but a career lawyer
>can decipher...
>
>Well, does the term "snake oil" ring a bell?


I don't mind the mini-rant there about open source licenses. But the
clear designation that this is "cardware" indicates the postcard is a
kind of registration. It's a condition that says you need to do
something if you use the software. Maybe the author meant this as a
joke (I compared it in my other email to "beerware" - "if you like it,
then buy me a beer sometime" is usually considered a joke) but what if
he *really* wants to get postcards from people? If you use the
software and don't send a postcard, are you in violation of an implied
license agreement?

Also: The exit message says the source code is both "copyright" (C)
and released into the public domain. You can't have both. If you
release something into the public domain, you give up all rights. From
the Creative Commons:

>The person who associated a work with this deed has dedicated the
>work to the public domain by waiving all of his or her rights to
>the work worldwide under copyright law, including all related and
>neighboring rights, to the extent allowed by law.
>
>You can copy, modify, distribute and perform the work, even for
>commercial purposes, all without asking permission. See Other
>Information below.
(https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/)

So which is it? Is the software "cardware" (only enforceable if you
claim copyright) or is it "public domain"? You can't have both. And
unless Jason M. Knight is here to clarify, we can't provide insight to
intent.

We discussed games long ago and consensus was games are not "canon" or
"core" to DOS, so we can add new games when we want, and drop other
games at a whim. So I think that's the solution here. Drop PakuPaku
from the distribution, and pick another game to add instead.


> Regarding Beyond the Titanic: How about just adding
> a clarification and a link to the GPL source code
> release only to the DOCUMENTATION? If you recompile
> it to get rid of the shareware notice, you would have
> made a new derivative and become a new author with your
> achievement being only to have deleted in-game texts?
>
> Similar for Super Nova and Word Whiz, of course.

I don't believe changing just the documentation will be enough here.
The game prints this message, which is precompiled into the game exe:

>Please note that Beyond the Titanic is a SHAREWARE game.
>
>This game has been placed in the public domain for your enjoyment.
>
>If you like the game the author (Scott Miller) asks that you please
>contribute $5 or $10 (your discretion) to him. This minimal payment
>will help compensent the author for the year of work that went into
>Beyond the Titanic. It will also encourage the author to make new and
>better games, like Supernova and Kingdom of Kroz, both of which are
>also shareware games recently released.
>
>This fee also registers the payer for telephone support and clues
>Please make checks payable to Scott Miller
>
>[phone number and address]
>
>Thanks, enjoy the game...

There are several red flags that point to this being a shareware game.
The biggest red flag is there on the top line: it says it's shareware.
It even puts it in ALL CAPS so you don't miss it.

If the sources are indeed under the GNU GPL, as mentioned in the
Readme, then someone could recompile the game without that "Shareware"
message, and instead print a message that the game is under the GNU
GPL. Eric seems to have a lot of time and seems vested in trying to
keep these games, so perhaps Eric can do this.

But I'm really confused by these statements. The game says 

Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Eric Auer]

Hi Jim,

> * has issues:
> gnu chess
> Kraptor
> Liquiwar
> magnetic
> mirror magic

> * remove: (license issues)> pakupaku [see suggestion]

If possible, solve the license issue (I think there
is none, see my other mail) and keep it. It is a good
example for 160x100 text graphics and thereby a good
test case for hardware emulator quality :-)

> * GNU Chess (a chess game) doesn't seem to work for me. When I
> ran GNUCHESS.EXE I got a bunch of ANSI esc codes printed...

Then you probably have to load NANSI. Easy solution, no? ;-)

> * Kraptor has weird graphics, like the palette isn't displaying
> properly. The palette was so weird that...

It works fine in DOSEMU2, report bug in VirtualBox?
The game is a clone of the classic space shooter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raptor:_Call_of_the_Shadows

> * Liquiwar (some sort of strategy game?) has the same palette problem
> I mentioned earlier. I reset the virtual machine to use VBoxSVGA,
> thinking the game was trying to use SVGA capabilities that standard
> VGA couldn't handle, but got the same result. Hangs when I try to
> quit using the "Exit to DOS" button.

Graphics work fine in DOSEMU2, again a VirtualBox VGA bug?
You play by moving the red circle with the keyboard to
attract your red paint and spread it over the field, but
the computer opponent has far better strategy than I do.
You could also navigate by mouse or joystick, I think.

> * Mirror Magic displays some graphics in black and white. I *think*
> there's some graphical text there, but I can't read it, so I can't
> figure out what to do. I can't exit with the Esc key. Not sure what to
> do here. Had to reboot the virtual machine. I'm wondering if we need
> this game, or can we find another game to replace it?

Mirror Magic works perfectly for me in DOSEMU2, has a very
"sweet" color scheme with tones of red, green, blue, yellow.
You play by L/R clicking on mirrors to rotate them to direct
your beam to the balls, which also involves reflecting and
non-reflecting surfaces, rotating grids, teleporters etc.

If you reflect the beam back to yourself or hit red things,
you start to overheat. Sometimes hitting balls makes blocks
vanish elsewhere, helping you to reach the goal of directing
the beam to the receiver. Even the first level took a while.

> * Vertigo is a flight sim game. Maybe I did something wrong at the
> controls, but it made a little "crash" noise, then the game became
> unresponsive. Not sure how to play this. GNU GPL

It works perfectly for me, but you have to remember quite
a few keys to even get airborne (e.g. engine throttle) and
I crashed before I managed to finish a 360 degree circle to
see whether the level landscape was worth seeing. Style is
similar to Microsoft Flight Simulator 4.

Regards, Eric



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Eric Auer]

Hi!

I think given that Paku Paku sources are public domain,
there is no problem with the author asking to send a
postcard if you like it. You are free to not send a
postcard, after all. Making a new release without the
"restriction" that the author mentions being glad about
feedback seems unnecessary and I would not condemn the
author for asking for a postcard or trying to "hide"
that wish by doing a new release.

Regarding Beyond the Titanic: How about just adding
a clarification and a link to the GPL source code
release only to the DOCUMENTATION? If you recompile
it to get rid of the shareware notice, you would have
made a new derivative and become a new author with your
achievement being only to have deleted in-game texts?

Similar for Super Nova and Word Whiz, of course.

I suggest to move MAGNETIC to the emulator group.
It shares with that group the property of needing
separately, often not freely, available game data.
Weird that the game copyright holders know that
download page and have not objected, but have
not made a statement about granting permission?

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Robert Riebisch]

Hi Jim,

> * Beyond the Titanic (text adventure game) says in the startup screen:
> 
>>Please note that Beyond the Titanic is a SHAREWARE game.
>>
>>This game has been placed in the public domain for your enjoyment.
> 
> ..and then it has some text about if you like the game, you should
> contribute $5 or $10 to the author.
> 
> However, it's a problem that the game displays a "Shareware" notice
> and "Public domain" notice. It can't be both. The "send me $$" text
> suggests this is shareware.
> 
> The README.TXT file says this:
>>This game was deleted from Apogee's product line a VERY long time ago, and
>>has been re-released as freeware in March of 2009. There are a few notes
>>you should be are of with the release:
> [..]
>>4) This game is released as freeware. That's not to be confused with
>>   public domain, abandonware (which is illegal), or releasing something
>>   under the GPL. This is a freeware release, which means we retain full
>>   legal rights to the title and it's materials. You are free to play the
>>   game as we've released it, but not free to "do whatever you want with
>>   it", which includes selling it or otherwise using the materials for your
>>   own gain.
> 
> ..and point 5 says it was released as freeware in 1998, and
> re-released in 2009 with source code.
> 
> [Interestingly, further down the Readme, it says the source code is
> released under the GNU GPL. But the text above it doesn't agree with
> that.]
> 
> This doesn't seem very "open source" to me. I think we need to remove
> this game for the 1.3 Final.

Grab the sources, remove the shareware notice and rebuild.
They just were to lazy to remove it before releasing under GNU GPL or
left it in for "the historical experience".
https://jxself.org/git/?p=beyond-the-titanic.git;a=blob;f=History/History.txt;h=04b4fe829a8c0b634821befc916fbd3d8bd8af09;hb=6cb4785e2abee85844e8b04189e286f4f3030719
https://jxself.org/git/?p=beyond-the-titanic.git;a=blob;f=History/gpl-announcement.png;h=1a6a055b07a0d4f39fb5daad0432b415a0cbccdd;hb=6cb4785e2abee85844e8b04189e286f4f3030719

> * SNova ("Supernova") has some issues on the opening screen. It says:
>>This game is placed in the public domain for your enjoyment. Please do
>>not abuse this product or the author's rights.

see above

> * WW1 ("Word Whiz") has a "shareware" statement when you start a new game:
>>WORD WHIZ - VOLUME I is a shareware program

see above

Cheers,
Robert
-- 
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DOS ain't dead: https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Carsten Strotmann]

Hi Jim,

On 16 Jun 2021, at 21:01, Jim Hall wrote:

> Instead of PakuPaku, what about some other "PacMan"-like game instead?
> For example, there's Double PacMan, at
> https://breadbingames.itch.io/double-pacman
> (source code at https://github.com/moonorongo/doublePalman .. GNU GPL
> in the 'src' directory)

I agree the PakuPaku "cardware" License is problematic.

PakuPaku is interesting not only as a game, but because it uses the 
undocumented 160x100 16 color CGA mode and can run on a stock IBM PC/XT 8086 
4.77 Mhz.

So PakuPaku also is a useful tool to test old hardware, besides being a nice 
game.

The Authors/Projects website is at 

On the projects page the author writes

>> I'm distributing this game as cardware. If you enjoy it please send a 
>> postcard to the provided address. The code for the game is released to the 
>> public domain. Do what you like with it so long as credit is given to the 
>> copyright holder, Jason M. Knight. I have included the full Pascal and 
>> Assembler source code to the game in the distribution. Feel free to play 
>> with it, come up with anything cool from it let me know.  <<

My understanding is that the PakuPaku "binaries" on the page are "cardware", 
but the source is "public domain". The game itself does not seem to mention 
"cardware".

I'm willing to contact Jason M. Knight to clarify the source code license. If 
the license is public domain, the FreeDOS project could create own binaries 
(maybe port to FreePascal) without the cardware license restriction.

Greetings

Carsten



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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Robert Riebisch]

Hi Jim,

> So I think we should drop Magenetic for the same reasons. Agree?

Agreed.

Cheers,
Robert
-- 
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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Jim Hall]

On Wed, Jun 16, 2021 at 2:16 PM Carsten Strotmann  wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> On 16 Jun 2021, at 21:01, Jim Hall wrote:
>
> > * Magnetic says in the startup that it is an interpreter for Magnetic
> > Scrolls games. but there aren't any Magnetic Scrolls games installed
> > with it, so I can't play anything with it. GNU GPL, but the game
> > doesn't seem useful without any Magnetic Scrolls games to play. I'm
> > wondering if we need this game, or can we find another game to replace
> > it?
>
> the data files for Magnetic can be downloaded from
> , but they are
> not free and can't be legally distributed. It would be possible
> to create a download batch script that will download and install
> the data files for each game to be used with the "magnetic"
> interpreter.
>


Thanks, that's helpful. This is also parallel to the Emulators, which
we dropped prior to FreeDOS 1.3 RC4. We made this note on the wiki:
(see point 2)
http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/Releases/1.3/Packages#Emulators

>Note: Will drop Emulators in FreeDOS 1.3 for two reasons: (1) These
>are really games, and we already decided that games are not "core"
>like other programs in the distro, so we can add or remove games
>without issues. (2) The emulators require ROMs to do anything, and we
>can't include the ROMS - so if users would have to download ROMs
>anyway, they can download the emulators too.


So I think we should drop Magenetic for the same reasons. Agree?


Jim


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Carsten Strotmann]

Hi Jim,

On 16 Jun 2021, at 21:01, Jim Hall wrote:

> * Magnetic says in the startup that it is an interpreter for Magnetic
> Scrolls games. but there aren't any Magnetic Scrolls games installed
> with it, so I can't play anything with it. GNU GPL, but the game
> doesn't seem useful without any Magnetic Scrolls games to play. I'm
> wondering if we need this game, or can we find another game to replace
> it?

the data files for Magnetic can be downloaded from 
, but they are not free and 
can't be legally distributed. It would be possible to create a download batch 
script that will download and install the data files for each game to be used 
with the "magnetic" interpreter.

Greetings

Carsten


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[Freedos-devel] Additional notes on Games

[Jim Hall]

I tried some of the other games on FreeDOS 1.3 RC4, using VirtualBox
on Linux. Starting point was VBoxVGA unless otherwise noted.


Short version:

* runs fine:

empong
ewsnake
fmines
ivan (?)
mistral
nethack
noudar
qtetris
sudoku86
vertigo (?)
vitetris
zmiy


* has issues:

gnu chess
Kraptor
Liquiwar
magnetic
mirror magic


* remove: (license issues)

beyond the titanic
pakupaku [see suggestion]
snova
ww1

-

Full notes:


* Beyond the Titanic (text adventure game) says in the startup screen:

>Please note that Beyond the Titanic is a SHAREWARE game.
>
>This game has been placed in the public domain for your enjoyment.

..and then it has some text about if you like the game, you should
contribute $5 or $10 to the author.

However, it's a problem that the game displays a "Shareware" notice
and "Public domain" notice. It can't be both. The "send me $$" text
suggests this is shareware.

The README.TXT file says this:
>This game was deleted from Apogee's product line a VERY long time ago, and
>has been re-released as freeware in March of 2009. There are a few notes
>you should be are of with the release:
[..]
>4) This game is released as freeware. That's not to be confused with
>   public domain, abandonware (which is illegal), or releasing something
>   under the GPL. This is a freeware release, which means we retain full
>   legal rights to the title and it's materials. You are free to play the
>   game as we've released it, but not free to "do whatever you want with
>   it", which includes selling it or otherwise using the materials for your
>   own gain.

..and point 5 says it was released as freeware in 1998, and
re-released in 2009 with source code.

[Interestingly, further down the Readme, it says the source code is
released under the GNU GPL. But the text above it doesn't agree with
that.]

This doesn't seem very "open source" to me. I think we need to remove
this game for the 1.3 Final.


*EMPong (a "pong"-style game) plays well. GNU GPL.


*EWSnake (a "nibbles"-like game) plays well. Entirely in Italian and I
don't know how to change it to English. GNU GPL.


* Fmines (a "minesweeper"-like game) has a very pretty startup screen,
but it took so long to load that I thought the virtual machine had
stopped responding. Otherwise a good "minesweeper" game. GNU GPL.


* GNU Chess (a chess game) doesn't seem to work for me. When I ran
GNUCHESS.EXE I got a bunch of ANSI esc codes printed with the text -
which obviously just looks like a mess. Couldn't figure out how to
exit the game. Trying GNUCHESSN.EXE gave the same results, and still
couldn't figure out how to quit. I gave up after that. I'm wondering
if we need this game, or can we find another game to replace it?


* Ivan (some kind of adventure game) ran fine, but I don't understand
how to play it. The game says to use the arrow keys to get around, but
neither the up/down/left/right did anything, nor the arrow keys on the
num pad. GNU GPL


* Kraptor has weird graphics, like the palette isn't displaying
properly. The palette was so weird that I didn't immediately notice
that it had a menu. Started a new game, and the weird graphics on
VirtualBox made the game unplayable. And I couldn't quit the game
during the (very long) opening animatic, so I ended up rebooting the
machine. I have no idea what this game is.


* Liquiwar (some sort of strategy game?) has the same palette problem
I mentioned earlier. I reset the virtual machine to use VBoxSVGA,
thinking the game was trying to use SVGA capabilities that standard
VGA couldn't handle, but got the same result. Hangs when I try to
quit using the "Exit to DOS" button.


* Magnetic says in the startup that it is an interpreter for Magnetic
Scrolls games. but there aren't any Magnetic Scrolls games installed
with it, so I can't play anything with it. GNU GPL, but the game
doesn't seem useful without any Magnetic Scrolls games to play. I'm
wondering if we need this game, or can we find another game to replace
it?


* Mirror Magic displays some graphics in black and white. I *think*
there's some graphical text there, but I can't read it, so I can't
figure out what to do. I can't exit with the Esc key. Not sure what to
do here. Had to reboot the virtual machine. I'm wondering if we need
this game, or can we find another game to replace it?


* Mistral (some kind of intrigue-adventure interactive game) runs fine
and displays graphics fine. Not really my kind of game, but probably
appeals to others. GNU GPL


* Nethack is the classic text-based adventure-exploration game. Works fine.


* Noudar is a 3D adventure game. Runs fine. BSD license.


* PakuPaku is a "PacMan"-like game. Worked fine. I didn't get sound,
but I don't know that I have my VirtualBox set up to do sound
correctly. The license is a little weird. The exit screen has a long
paragraph that says:
>Source code (C) Jason M Knight and released to the public domain. If you are
>going to give something