Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-19 Thread François Revol 
Le dimanche 17 juillet 2011 à 16:11 -0500, Jim Hall a écrit :
> And yes, OpenGEM is the only graphical package included in the "GUI"
> package set. This is basically the same as DRDOS ViewMax, which was a
> competitor/analogy to MSDOS DOSSHELL.
> 
> Over the years, we've included other GUI's in FreeDOS, but eventually
> the developers stopped working on them. OpenGEM is at least stable and
> works very well. I've emailed Shane many times to talk about his
> future plans for OpenGEM. I don't know if he is still working on it in
> 2011. The OpenGEM web site hints that "something exciting" is coming,
> but it's been a very long time since he put that message up.

Btw, their SF page misses screenshots :p

You might want to have a look at the Atari stuff which still use GEM:
- EmuTOS
http://sourceforge.net/projects/emutos/
- MiNT

I'm not sure how much of the API is common across the x86 and 68k GEM,
but it would be insanely cool to be able to have applications in common,
hopefully we're past the Atari/Amiga/PC war now :D

François.


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-17 Thread Jim Hall 
>> But, IIRC, this was verbatim the version from OpenWatcom. My point was
>> that people who are developers already have it (or similar). If we're
>> going to include it, we should also include "link" (like MS-DOS used
>> to). Also, there's no DOSSHELL or BASIC there either, and nobody
>> complained. So some of these things should really be removed. I do
>> really think exe2bin is useless here.
>
> DR DOS never had BASIC, and PC DOS 7 drops it (I *think* 6.x still had
> basic.com/basica.com on the IBM side, after dropping qbasic).  And FreeDOS
> *does* have a GEM package, right?  That covers DOSSHELL - it's more or
> less an enhanced version of DR DOS's counterpart of it (i.e., ViewMax).


We have several implementations of BASIC in the "Devel" package set
(formerly "Lang"): Basec, BwBasic, FreeBasic, SmallBasic. That seems
like plenty. I even wrote a few simple BwBasic programs long ago, I
think for one of the FreeDOS Beta releases, just so there'd be some
BASIC programs you could experiment with.

And yes, OpenGEM is the only graphical package included in the "GUI"
package set. This is basically the same as DRDOS ViewMax, which was a
competitor/analogy to MSDOS DOSSHELL.

Over the years, we've included other GUI's in FreeDOS, but eventually
the developers stopped working on them. OpenGEM is at least stable and
works very well. I've emailed Shane many times to talk about his
future plans for OpenGEM. I don't know if he is still working on it in
2011. The OpenGEM web site hints that "something exciting" is coming,
but it's been a very long time since he put that message up.


-jh

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-17 Thread Steve Nickolas 
On Sun, 17 Jul 2011, Rugxulo wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 7/17/11, Eric Auer  wrote:
>
>> Comp: You are right, FC replaces it.
>
> Well, yes, I know all (most?) DOSes have both, but FC can do ASCII
> (default) or binary (/b), so I don't ever use COMP.

In DOS 2-4, PC DOS had COMP (which it had since 1.x) and MS-DOS had FC.

I think COMP first appears in MS-DOS 3.3; FC doesn't appear in IBM's 
version until 5.

>> Choice: Important for batch scripts.
>> Exe2bin: Not all software uses compilers which create COM directly.

PC DOS 2000 doesn't even *have* exe2bin.

> But, IIRC, this was verbatim the version from OpenWatcom. My point was
> that people who are developers already have it (or similar). If we're
> going to include it, we should also include "link" (like MS-DOS used
> to). Also, there's no DOSSHELL or BASIC there either, and nobody
> complained. So some of these things should really be removed. I do
> really think exe2bin is useless here.

DR DOS never had BASIC, and PC DOS 7 drops it (I *think* 6.x still had 
basic.com/basica.com on the IBM side, after dropping qbasic).  And FreeDOS 
*does* have a GEM package, right?  That covers DOSSHELL - it's more or 
less an enhanced version of DR DOS's counterpart of it (i.e., ViewMax).

-uso.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-17 Thread Jim Hall 
>> To be completely honest, please don't take this the wrong way, but
>> some of those I literally never use (or can't remember how!):
>>
>> * append
>> * assign
[...]
> The idea of BASE is to provide at least clones of all commands that
> MS DOS users had in their standard installation of MS DOS, while of
> course not limiting ourself to that list. You are right that some
> tools are less frequently used but almost everything in your list
> actually is useful for me...


The important part is that BASE is supposed to replicate the behavior
of MSDOS. FreeDOS is a free DOS-compatible operating system for IBM-PC
compatible systems. So while you may not use some of the programs in
BASE, they are included for a reason: for DOS legacy.

We have dropped only a few truly "relic" commands that were deemed to
have no value. For example: Backup/Restore was a moving target in
MSDOS anyway, so was not part of FreeDOS. Similarly, Recover dropped
was because there are a variety of free disk recovery programs already
available.

Also, we have allowed some of the command names in BASE to change from
their original MSDOS counterparts, but the functionality of the
original MSDOS command is still there (often expanded in FreeDOS.)


As I've written elsewhere, we need to avoid making dramatic & sweeping
changes to FreeDOS 1.1. I'm in favor of completely opening up FreeDOS
2.0 for major change - and I think we *should* redefine what a modern
DOS should look like in "2.0". But FreeDOS 1.1 needs to be essentially
an update of "1.0", using the software list as a guide.


-jh

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-17 Thread Rugxulo 
Hi,

On 7/17/11, Eric Auer  wrote:
>
>> XMGR. HIMEMX (AFAICT) has no maintainer (and/or we really need to push
>> out that "jmp $+2" fix for old 386s, i.e. unofficial version 3.33,
>
> In other words, Japheth took over HIMEMX but does not add the patch?

No. In fact, he has explicitly said he is *not* maintainer, hence
nobody else ever bothered adding the patch.   :-( Yeah, I guess I
should've done it, but even I never got around to it (round tuit?).

>>> www.freedos.org/software/
>>
>> To be completely honest, please don't take this the wrong way, but
>> some of those I literally never use (or can't remember how!):
>>
>> * append
>> * assign
>
> The idea of BASE is to provide at least clones of all commands that
> MS DOS users had in their standard installation of MS DOS, while of
> course not limiting ourself to that list. You are right that some
> tools are less frequently used but almost everything in your list
> actually is useful for me...

It's fine if you have reasons to use them. I'm not disagreeing with
the idea, just saying "in practice" I never, ever, ever use them. I
guess that just proves that everybody's tastes, usage, and skills
differ. Please don't take it as a "command" that you must never use
them and remove them, that's not my goal. Just saying ... perhaps some
things we don't need anymore.

> Comp: You are right, FC replaces it.

Well, yes, I know all (most?) DOSes have both, but FC can do ASCII
(default) or binary (/b), so I don't ever use COMP.

> Choice: Important for batch scripts.
> Exe2bin: Not all software uses compilers which create COM directly.

But, IIRC, this was verbatim the version from OpenWatcom. My point was
that people who are developers already have it (or similar). If we're
going to include it, we should also include "link" (like MS-DOS used
to). Also, there's no DOSSHELL or BASIC there either, and nobody
complained. So some of these things should really be removed. I do
really think exe2bin is useless here.

> Fasthelp: Was meant to work like "apropos" in Linux, see htmlhelp.

But does it work at all?? I can't remember, maybe I'm thinking of
DR-DOS (where it's a no-op).

> Graphics: For ESC/P, HP PCL and Postscript printers, but of course
>   many now make PNG screenshots of their DOS window, no hardcopy.

You (should) know I meant no offense by this. And certainly I
appreciate all your hard work. But it's still frustrating when
hardware just doesn't work. I guess that's a lost battle, there's just
too much incompatible stuff out there.   :-(

> Mirror: Can be sort of replaced by functionality in FORMAT.

Fine, good, useful in theory, but rare in practice.

> Nlsfunc: Not really clear for me how to use this and CHCP. Also,
>   neither 2039 nor 2040 support NLSFUNC yet, only unstable 2037.

I (very very briefly) booted my i18n floppy yesterday, and I didn't
see any obvious errors. int 21h, 6522h apparently still worked (my
silly UPPER.COM), NLSFUNC quietly loaded with no problems, and yes I
already upgraded to 2040. So who knows. But I of course didn't use
CHCP at all. The country data (time, date, currency) seemed to be
correctly changed to Greek, so who knows (but perhaps the CONFIG.SYS
setting did that, not NLSFUNC.EXE itself, dunno).

Oh well, Casino says it ain't urgent, so whatever. Still, I just hope
it doesn't affect anybody negatively.

> Print: Not really useful with modern printers but some like it.

If it works, keep it. Unfortunately, I think it doesn't for most
people. Hardware-specific things like this that only work for %0.01 of
the world should probably not be in "BASE". Just MHO, sorry.   :-(

> Recover / unformat: Partially also in FORMAT?

Ugh, I'm not sure I've ever used any version of this, but it sounds
useless (IIRC). Recover is like 0.1, and it pretty much destroys
everything (on floppy??) except raw text data. So I would be very VERY
surprised if anyone used this. I'd rather have a "real" tool like WDE
in "BASE" instead.

> Share: Apparently useful for Windows and similar software?

Yes, which is good and fine, but still rare for most people.
Seriously, how many of us use Win3x? I'm not discounting it, just
saying, "by itself" Share is fairly useless (right??). Keep in mind
that you can't get Win3x at all anymore except via eBay or perhaps
(??) MSDN. Good luck getting it to work on modern hardware!! (I
consider bare DOS better than Win3x, but of course it had some
advantages, e.g. multitasking.)

If Win3x were freeware, I'd agree, but since it's not and never will be 

> Tree: How else do you check your directory tree? I use "LCD".

Check it for what? I don't use it. If I need to find a file, I use an
appropriate tool (or even "dir /s"). Actually, a real file manager
would be more useful here (e.g. Doszip, but that's 386+).

> Undelete: In what way buggy for FAT32? It is just horribly non-
>   user-friendly as far as I remember.

I just meant that you hacked it to (sorta) work but not perfectly. I
never heard of anyone heavily using

Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-17 Thread Eric Auer 

Hi!

> XMGR. HIMEMX (AFAICT) has no maintainer (and/or we really need to push
> out that "jmp $+2" fix for old 386s, i.e. unofficial version 3.33,

In other words, Japheth took over HIMEMX but does not add the patch?

>> www.freedos.org/software/
> 
> To be completely honest, please don't take this the wrong way, but
> some of those I literally never use (or can't remember how!):
> 
> * append
> * assign

The idea of BASE is to provide at least clones of all commands that
MS DOS users had in their standard installation of MS DOS, while of
course not limiting ourself to that list. You are right that some
tools are less frequently used but almost everything in your list
actually is useful for me...

Append / assign: Some old software uses it in startup scripts.
Comp: You are right, FC replaces it.
Choice: Important for batch scripts.
Exe2bin: Not all software uses compilers which create COM directly.
Fasthelp: Was meant to work like "apropos" in Linux, see htmlhelp.
Graphics: For ESC/P, HP PCL and Postscript printers, but of course
  many now make PNG screenshots of their DOS window, no hardcopy.
Mirror: Can be sort of replaced by functionality in FORMAT.
Nlsfunc: Not really clear for me how to use this and CHCP. Also,
  neither 2039 nor 2040 support NLSFUNC yet, only unstable 2037.
Print: Not really useful with modern printers but some like it.
Recover / unformat: Partially also in FORMAT?
Share: Apparently useful for Windows and similar software?
Tree: How else do you check your directory tree? I use "LCD".
Undelete: In what way buggy for FAT32? It is just horribly non-
  user-friendly as far as I remember.

> I mean, if we want to mirror MS-DOS, we should include BWBasic

BWBasic, the Shell-based GWBasic clone? That was pretty painful
to use but of course it is much smaller than the cool freebasic.

> Almost forgot, yeah, I would (personally) add sed, specifically
> "cheap sed", which already is GPL and has a DOS 16-bit binary:
> 
> http://lvogel.free.fr/sed.htm

A lot smaller than the DJGPP GNU SED it seems. I do like SED but
if we go that way, I would like EGREP, SORT, UNIQ, WC, XXD etc.

> www.exactcode.de/site/open_source/minised/

Yet more less sed :-D

> Perhaps we should include Awk (old Mawk 1.2.2? old 16-bit Gawk 3.0.6?)

Awk has awkful syntax, but some people like it...

> www.gknw.net/mirror/awk/

> reminds me, MOVE still needs the +R bug fixed. (And a lot of these
> should be upgraded to support LFNs, for DOSEMU if nothing else.)

Poke the maintainer, although I only give +R any priority at all.

Eric


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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-16 Thread Rugxulo 
Hi,

On 7/16/11, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
>> Mirroring to Ibiblio has to improve still, might want to doublecheck
>> that. Kernel, SHSUCDX and Edlin (what's a binary?) are easy examples of
>> being outdated.
>
> Yes, this seems to have been (mostly) ignored while I was away from
> FreeDOS. Some things were updated, but most items were not. This is
> next on my to-do list, when I'm not writing updates for Install, or
> goofing off on the weekend. :-)

I did a few updates a month or two ago. But my mistake was blindly
assuming that Murphy's Law didn't exist. (Nah, why have ssh key on two
computers? This one is brand new. What could go wrong?)

Worse is that then I assumed my laptop would work fine ... and while
it does, the router doesn't (or at least I haven't barely a clue how
to set it up, yet again, and I have to pore over some Dummies books
[literally!] one of these days to figure it out!)

So unless I want to beg Jim, yet again, to install *yet another* ssh
key for me for this computer (not that I have any decent ssh tools,
would have to *yet again* install Cygwin), it's not going to happen
until I become router-savvy (ugh). And even I (barely) have a life
with other junk to do (barely!).

Face it, Jim has done a lot for FreeDOS, maybe too much, so when he
runs off with "real life", sometimes nobody steps up. Hey, they've
(almost all) got the "real life" disease too! Well, ssh, it happens.
;-)

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-16 Thread Rugxulo 
Hi,

On 7/16/11, Bernd Blaauw  wrote:
>
> Anyone got experience with the watcom port of FreeCOM yet? Or too
> experimental / work-in-progress?

Bart said it works pretty well, but it's only in SVN (and I don't have
a client installed on this machine), so you'll have to grab and build
it by yourself.

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-16 Thread Rugxulo 
Hi,

On 7/16/11, Jim Hall  wrote:
>
> Based on discussions with Bernd as we prepare for FreeDOS 1.1, I've
> done some cleanup on the Software List. The major edits:
>
> * DOSFSCK: moved Util -> Base

While I agree this is "better", it's still nice to have CHKDSK for
16-bit cpus (since DOSFSCK is DJGPP / 386+).

> * HIMEM: deleted (use HIMEMX)
> * XMGR: added to Base (removed FDXMS, FDXMS286)

Was this intentional? We don't need two (though it's nice to have both
in case one has bugs with something). These days I tend to prefer
XMGR. HIMEMX (AFAICT) has no maintainer (and/or we really need to push
out that "jmp $+2" fix for old 386s, i.e. unofficial version 3.33,
been procrastinating that for years!).

> Please have a look and let me know if I need to update anything
> else.

To be completely honest, please don't take this the wrong way, but
some of those I literally never use (or can't remember how!):

* append
* assign
* comp
* choice
* edit (but do keep this, I guess, though I prefer others)
* exe2bin (really? anybody use that? then where's "link"? heh)
* fasthelp (does this even do anything?)
* graphics (apparently my hardware hates it)
* lbacache (still good but UIDE makes it and TICKLE and CDRCACHE redundant)
* mirror
* nlsfunc (broken with 2040??)
* print (doesn't work for me)
* recover
* share
* tree
* undelete (FAT32 buggy?)
* unformat

Something I would maybe? add is whats-his-face's Restore, but it's for
"non-military" use, heh, aka not GPL friendly. Then again, that's
another rare util I don't personally need. But it's classic "BASE",
IMHO.

I mean, if we want to mirror MS-DOS, we should include BWBasic (or
Regina Rexx for similarity to PC-DOS). But I don't figure anybody
would agree to that. Heck, if you want to be different, include XPL0
!!;-)

Almost forgot, yeah, I would (personally) add sed, specifically "cheap
sed", which already is GPL and has a DOS 16-bit binary:

http://lvogel.free.fr/sed.htm

It's basically a cleaned up version of hhsed which was derived from
Eric Raymond's version. I also see that even ESR now only points to
(other dude's) "minised" as the proper replacement. Surprisingly, it's
still dead simple (!) to compile that (and I tested with DJGPP
yesterday), but I haven't built it with OpenWatcom, so I don't know if
it's 16-bit friendly.

http://www.exactcode.de/site/open_source/minised/

Perhaps we should include Awk (old Mawk 1.2.2? old 16-bit Gawk 3.0.6?)
instead? Or maybe you think that's too *nix-y? I don't even grok Awk
(heh), just saying, it's at least as useful as sed (though I heavily
use sed almost exclusively). Oh, I forgot, one guy tweaked BWK's Awk a
few months ago to compile with OW (even for DOS 16-bit). So that would
be a good alternative too, if you prefer a more recent (and hopefully
less buggy) version.

http://www.gknw.net/mirror/awk/

> Keeping the software list up-to-date is a community effort. If you see
> anything there that looks out of place, or out of date, etc please let
> me know. Just send me an email and I'll update it.

I guess I'm one of the updating fiends. But even I've slowed down
(somewhat, stupid computer problems). It's hard to find everything,
even harder to keep track of versions, what works, what doesn't, etc.

> We use an online tool to edit the software list via a web browser, and
> several "admin" folks have the ability to update the software list in
> this way. You can also contact Pat, Aitor, Eric, Rugxulo, Mateusz, or
> Jeremy.

No offense, but most of this stuff is unmaintained. In fact, that
reminds me, MOVE still needs the +R bug fixed. (And a lot of these
should be upgraded to support LFNs, for DOSEMU if nothing else.)

Ah well, always more to do.   :-/

P.S. I know we're all tired of having to do everything ourselves and
also tired of waiting for 1.1 to finally come out. But hey, that's
life, everybody's off doing ten different other projects too, even me
(barely). Oh well, if we just do a little at a time, we'll get there
one day 

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-16 Thread Jim Hall 
On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Bernd Blaauw  wrote:
> Op 16-7-2011 19:44, Jim Hall schreef:
>> * XMGR: added to Base (removed FDXMS, FDXMS286)
>
> I'd keep FDXMS286 if possible, it's the only XMS-driver for 286 machines.

Ok, I restored FDXMS286 back on the software list (Base).


>> Please have a look and let me know if I need to update anything
>> else.
>
> UTIL:
>
> you could delete UDMA, XCDROM, XDMA from the software list so people
> won't download them again except directly from Ibiblio if they happen to
> stumble upon it. Jack R Ellis opensourced those drivers back then, but
> all have been replaced by a much more bugfree and functional UIDE
> driver, acting as CD driver for
> SATA/IDE drives, meanwhile also providing readcache for IDE/SATA
> harddisks and those CD drives.

Thanks, forgot to clean those up. I've removed UDMA/UDMA/XCDROM from
the software list.


>> Keeping the software list up-to-date is a community effort. If you see
>> anything there that looks out of place, or out of date, etc please let
>> me know. Just send me an email and I'll update it.
>
> I'd suggest adding Syslinux (4.04) to the BOOT section, due to its
> capabilities and the now opensourced ELTORITO driver.

Done! Also mirrored 4.04 to ibiblio.


> Flashrom program could be added as well to UTIL, but it's a dangerous
> program to mess around with. BIOS chip with wrong contents --> no
> functioning computer.

I don't want to include this in the software list just yet. It's a
very specific tool for a very specific purpose. Let's leave off for
1.1.


> Mirroring to Ibiblio has to improve still, might want to doublecheck
> that. Kernel, SHSUCDX and Edlin (what's a binary?) are easy examples of
> being outdated.

Yes, this seems to have been (mostly) ignored while I was away from
FreeDOS. Some things were updated, but most items were not. This is
next on my to-do list, when I'm not writing updates for Install, or
goofing off on the weekend. :-)

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Re: [Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-16 Thread Bernd Blaauw 
Op 16-7-2011 19:44, Jim Hall schreef:
> * XMGR: added to Base (removed FDXMS, FDXMS286)

I'd keep FDXMS286 if possible, it's the only XMS-driver for 286 machines.

> Please have a look and let me know if I need to update anything
> else.

UTIL:

you could delete UDMA, XCDROM, XDMA from the software list so people 
won't download them again except directly from Ibiblio if they happen to 
stumble upon it. Jack R Ellis opensourced those drivers back then, but 
all have been replaced by a much more bugfree and functional UIDE 
driver, acting as CD driver for
SATA/IDE drives, meanwhile also providing readcache for IDE/SATA 
harddisks and those CD drives.

> Keeping the software list up-to-date is a community effort. If you see
> anything there that looks out of place, or out of date, etc please let
> me know. Just send me an email and I'll update it.

I'd suggest adding Syslinux (4.04) to the BOOT section, due to its 
capabilities and the now opensourced ELTORITO driver.

Flashrom program could be added as well to UTIL, but it's a dangerous 
program to mess around with. BIOS chip with wrong contents --> no 
functioning computer.


> We use an online tool to edit the software list via a web browser, and
> several "admin" folks have the ability to update the software list in
> this way. You can also contact Pat, Aitor, Eric, Rugxulo, Mateusz, or
> Jeremy.

Mirroring to Ibiblio has to improve still, might want to doublecheck 
that. Kernel, SHSUCDX and Edlin (what's a binary?) are easy examples of 
being outdated.

Anyone got experience with the watcom port of FreeCOM yet? Or too 
experimental / work-in-progress?

Bernd

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[Freedos-devel] Updates to software list

2011-07-16 Thread Jim Hall 
Based on discussions with Bernd as we prepare for FreeDOS 1.1, I've
done some cleanup on the Software List. The major edits:

* COUNTRY: edited to reflect that it is part of KERNEL
* DOSFSCK: moved Util -> Base
* DEVLOAD: moved Util -> Base
* EMM386: deleted (replaced by JEMM386)
* FDSHIELD: moved Base -> Util (similar to FDAV, which is already in Util)
* HIMEM: deleted (use HIMEMX)
* KERNELDEV deleted (use KERNEL)
* MTCP: added to Net
* UIDE: added to Base (removed GCDROM)
* VOL: edited to reflect that is is part of COMMAND
* XMGR: added to Base (removed FDXMS, FDXMS286)


Please have a look and let me know if I need to update anything
else.

Keeping the software list up-to-date is a community effort. If you see
anything there that looks out of place, or out of date, etc please let
me know. Just send me an email and I'll update it.

We use an online tool to edit the software list via a web browser, and
several "admin" folks have the ability to update the software list in
this way. You can also contact Pat, Aitor, Eric, Rugxulo, Mateusz, or
Jeremy.


-jh

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optimize your ideas and identify your business strategy.
http://p.sf.net/sfu/appsumosfdev2dev
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