Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Charlie Wilkes]

--- Bernd Blaauw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Anyway, glad we found a 286 user :)
> DOS is intended for such machines indeed, but
> there's hardly any of 
> these machines around in the wild.

New 286 boards are available on the web.  I think they
run about $100 for single-unit sales.

For an existing machine, a 32mb IDE flash drive might
be about right:

http://www.pretec.com/product/product/SSD/miniide.htm

Charlie










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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[root]

Michael Devore wrote:
At 04:36 PM 3/13/2005 -0800, root wrote:
  
  
  Yes, under every version of DOS that I'm
aware of, HIMEM.SYS is an XMS driver for 286 and above.

  
  
Not true of MS-DOS 7.x.  FreeDOS reports as 7.10, also.
  

    I was only speaking of MS-DOS  up to 6.22,  because that's what i
think of when i talk about DOS. I didn't know there was a DOS 7.x

   Most people that have/had a 386+ just run
EMM386 in addition to HIMEM, I'm assuming for the purpose of simulating
EMS, especially because many DOS games required EMS specifically.

  
  
No, they use it often for VCPI support.  It is also required for UMBs,
probably the single most common reason users load EMM386.
  
  

    I only meant regular 'Joe User' who uses/used DOS to play games,
etc. Not programmers, or DOS experts - I don't know much about UMB
(Upper Memory Blocks?) or VCPI. I just remember a friend telling me to
use EMM386 because I was getting a 'not enough EMS memory' error when i
tried running some old DOS games for the first time.


   I believe M$'s HIMEM.SYS driver simply
provided an interface to the BIOS's XMS memory access functions which
provided things like GDT's etc. but I don't know all the details.

  
  
No, there are no BIOS XMS memory access functions.  There is minimal
extended memory support, not XMS.
  

    The whole XMS topic confuses me. I thought that XMS was
extended memory, and that's what I was reffering to. I have just been
reading about it, and the book mentioned BIOS routines that provided an
offset to a GDT for a PM switch, so I guess I interpreted it wrong.

  I found out that FreeDOS's HIMEM.EXE is for
386+ only but i'm not sure why.

  
  
The reasons are currently being discussed in freedos-user and
freedos-devel.  Given FDXMS286's presence, it is both completely
unnecessary and unduly burdensome to the huge majority of non-286
FreeDOS users for HIMEM to back-support 286 machines.
  
  

  This was not intended as any sort of criticism on my part. Given that
the design goal of FD is to be a clone of MS-DOS, I simply assumed that
HIMEM and other components would also be clones of the M$ originals
(although I'm sure there are many improvments in the FD versions) -
that's why I was surprised to find out that FD HIMEM didn't work on a
286.

    If you read my original message, my 286 was crashing when I used
FDXMS286 which is why i was talking about HIMEM/286 issues in the first
place. It's not my wish to burden anything/anyone with provisions for
286's.


  
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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Michael Devore]

At 04:36 PM 3/13/2005 -0800, root wrote:
Yes, under every version of DOS that I'm aware of, HIMEM.SYS is an XMS 
driver for 286 and above.
Not true of MS-DOS 7.x.  FreeDOS reports as 7.10, also.
 Most people that have/had a 386+ just run EMM386 in addition to HIMEM, 
I'm assuming for the purpose of simulating EMS, especially because many 
DOS games required EMS specifically.
No, they use it often for VCPI support.  It is also required for UMBs, 
probably the single most common reason users load EMM386.

 I believe M$'s HIMEM.SYS driver simply provided an interface to the 
BIOS's XMS memory access functions which provided things like GDT's etc. 
but I don't know all the details.
No, there are no BIOS XMS memory access functions.  There is minimal 
extended memory support, not XMS.

I found out that FreeDOS's HIMEM.EXE is for 386+ only but i'm not sure why.
The reasons are currently being discussed in freedos-user and 
freedos-devel.  Given FDXMS286's presence, it is both completely 
unnecessary and unduly burdensome to the huge majority of non-286 FreeDOS 
users for HIMEM to back-support 286 machines.


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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[root]

Bernd Blaauw wrote:
I don't know if DOS6's HIMEM works on 286 machines. Someone told me 
DOS 7.10 (Win98) only runs on 386+ machines.

Anyway, glad we found a 286 user :)
DOS is intended for such machines indeed, but there's hardly any of 
these machines around in the wild.

Bernd
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Yes, under every version of DOS that I'm aware of, HIMEM.SYS is an XMS 
driver for 286 and above. Most people that have/had a 386+ just run 
EMM386 in addition to HIMEM, I'm assuming for the purpose of simulating 
EMS, especially because many DOS games required EMS specifically. I 
believe M$'s HIMEM.SYS driver simply provided an interface to the BIOS's 
XMS memory access functions which provided things like GDT's etc. but I 
don't know all the details.

I found out that FreeDOS's HIMEM.EXE is for 386+ only but i'm not sure why.

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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Christopher Evans]

I have two functioning 286 machines here, w/ a working MFM still.
Should there need be, I can try and make my 8088, 80386, PS/2(286) 
machines for testings.

Aitor
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http://bbx.flnet.org/nxdos/";>http://bbx.flnet.org/nxdos/

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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[root]

Aitor Santamaría Merino wrote:
Hi there,
root escribió:
Oops - i forgot that Linux is going to label me as 'root' by default! 
Anyway...   I'm surprised that it is so uncommon to run FD on an old 
PC. IMHO it seems ridiculous to install FreeDOS on your P4 
side-by-side with Windows XP like so many other people do. I mean 
what DOS software is going to run properly on a 3Ghz CPU? Besides, 
what else are you going to do with your old PC's? They would bog down 
to a crawl even on early versions of Linux or FreeBSD, but FreeDOS is 
perfect.

I disagree. FreeDOS is not "suited for old machines", but "suited for 
running DOS16/DOS32 code", as well as you can use WindowsXP to run 
your Win32 code and Linux to run your Linux code. Have you ever tried 
to run DOOM or HERETIC in a WinXP dosbox? In my testings it doesn't 
work (it gets too slow, it's not playable). So I can switch to FreeDOS 
to run this code.

Aitor
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   Good point, FreeDOS would make a great alternative to WinXP DOS box, 
for true compatibility ... but out of curiousity how do those games run 
on such a (assumingly) fast CPU running Window XP?


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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Aitor Santamaría Merino]

Hi,
Kristaps Kaupe escribiÃ:
I don't know if DOS6's HIMEM works on 286 machines. Someone told me DOS
7.10 (Win98) only runs on 386+ machines.
   

MS-DOS 5 and 6 HIMEM.SYS works on 286 machines, I have used it on my first PC 
(286) long time ago.
In MS-DOS 7.10 (Win98) even kernel runs only on 386+ machines.
 

Well, FAT32 requires 32-bit registers to operate comfortably. For the 
FreeDOS case, can I run a FAT32 enabled kernel in a 286 machine? (which 
of course doesn't have FAT32 partitions in its HD).

Aitor
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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Michael Devore]

At 04:36 PM 3/13/2005 +0100, Bernd Blaauw wrote:
 probably better, make HIMEM compatible to 286+, which would end up in a 
single unified XMS driver.
Adamantly and permanently opposed.  And you might be too, with the 
potential size increase and performance decrease in HIMEM after the 
significant rewrite to regress the instruction set on all XMS 2.0 and admin 
code down from 32-bit registers to 16-bit.  Nowadays I would just as soon 
write in 6502 or Z-80 assembly language as pure 16-bit 80x86 (except 
stubs), which is to say, only if somebody paid me to do it.

For the microscopic percentage of 80286-level clients, just use 
FDXMS286.  Simple readily available solution.  Fix it if it's broken, no 
big deal.  Why mug HIMEM when it's so unnecessary?


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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Kristaps Kaupe]

> I don't know if DOS6's HIMEM works on 286 machines. Someone told me DOS
> 7.10 (Win98) only runs on 386+ machines.

MS-DOS 5 and 6 HIMEM.SYS works on 286 machines, I have used it on my first PC 
(286) long time ago.
In MS-DOS 7.10 (Win98) even kernel runs only on 386+ machines.

Kristaps Kaupe,
http://kristaps.netparks.lv


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[Freedos-user] new doslfn version

[Florian Xaver]

Hi!
I saw, that there is a new version avaiable!
http://www.geocities.com/jadoxa/index.html
Bye, Flo
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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Bernd Blaauw]

Original report that started this thread a few weeks ago was about 
FDXMS286 not working on the 286 computer that 'root' has.

Originally FreeDOS seems to have FDXMS, and derived from it FDXXMS 
(64MB+) and FDXMS286 (286+ platform instead of only 386+). Later on Tom 
Ehlert forked FDXMS (0.8?) into HIMEM.EXE

HIMEM since then has many times been improved. I don't know if there are 
any bugs in FDXMS286 that have been solved in HIMEM
(remember all the A20 switching issues which Michael made a few switches 
for?).

So, a failing FDXMS286 driver on a 80286 platform is not exactly what 
should happen. Solutions to this might be to either backport (into 
FDXMS286) any fixes made in HIMEM, or, probably better, make HIMEM 
compatible to 286+, which would end up in a single unified XMS driver.

Does EMM386 still have a 'if XMS present, then go on, else abort' test? 
Or is there also a CPU test nowadays?

I don't know if DOS6's HIMEM works on 286 machines. Someone told me DOS 
7.10 (Win98) only runs on 386+ machines.

Anyway, glad we found a 286 user :)
DOS is intended for such machines indeed, but there's hardly any of 
these machines around in the wild.

Bernd
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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Aitor Santamaría Merino]

Hi,
Kenneth J. Davis escribió:
...
Anyway...   I'm surprised that it is so uncommon to run FD on an old 
PC. IMHO it seems ridiculous to install FreeDOS on your P4 
side-by-side with Windows XP like so many other people do. I mean 
what DOS software is going to run properly on a 3Ghz CPU? Besides, 
what else are you going to do with your old PC's? They would bog down 
to a crawl even on early versions of Linux or FreeBSD, but FreeDOS is 
perfect.

the problem is that older equipment is harder to come by if you don't 
already have it and it does eventually stop working (I still miss my 
ps/1 286 with its huge 2.5MB of RAM :-) so for me a 486 is about the 
oldest computer I test on that still has a fully working hard drive.
Should there need be, I can try and make my 8088, 80386, PS/2(286) 
machines for testings.

Aitor
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Re: [Freedos-user] XMS Manager on '286

[Aitor Santamaría Merino]

Hi there,
root escribió:
Oops - i forgot that Linux is going to label me as 'root' by default! 
Anyway...   I'm surprised that it is so uncommon to run FD on an old 
PC. IMHO it seems ridiculous to install FreeDOS on your P4 
side-by-side with Windows XP like so many other people do. I mean what 
DOS software is going to run properly on a 3Ghz CPU? Besides, what 
else are you going to do with your old PC's? They would bog down to a 
crawl even on early versions of Linux or FreeBSD, but FreeDOS is perfect.
I disagree. FreeDOS is not "suited for old machines", but "suited for 
running DOS16/DOS32 code", as well as you can use WindowsXP to run your 
Win32 code and Linux to run your Linux code. Have you ever tried to run 
DOOM or HERETIC in a WinXP dosbox? In my testings it doesn't work (it 
gets too slow, it's not playable). So I can switch to FreeDOS to run 
this code.

Aitor
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