Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On 12/16/2014 4:01 PM, dmccunney wrote: >> Even if all Intel based PCs are equipped with 64bit capable CPUs, they >> will just as happy run 32bit or even 16bit code just fine. > Assuming OS support is there. The instruction set is the same. > Various system calls may not be. If you want to run DOS apps on a 64 > bit Windows machine, you need a VM or emulator. They won't run > "native". Considering that this is a FreeDOS mailing list, you can run FreeDOS natively on any such machine. The only immediate hurdle on machines less than a year or so old is if they have a UEFI ony BIOS, but even then, you can work around that. >> And there are as mentioned above now with the Intel Quark X1000 >> processor again 32bit, single core/thread CPUs coming out for which a >> 16bit FreeDOS can be a very viable option for an OS to run on... >> >> DOS is not dead but people need to treat DOS as DOS, not as a second >> coming of Linux... > The fundamental issue for DOS is exactly what you *do* with it, and > *why* you might use DOS in preference to something else like Linux. > The fact that something *can* run DOS doesn't necessarily mean it > *should*. > Works the other way around as well. Just because you can get basic web browsing features or other uses of the Internet on (Free)DOS, doesn't mean you should either... Ralf --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On 12/16/2014 3:56 PM, dmccunney wrote: > I was talking about what you see if you go to purchase a > desktop/laptop/netbook/what have you. IoT kit is not stuff end users > will run to access the Internet and browse websites. Then why would you use DOS for those kind of tasks? It's the same thing. Time and technology have moved on, DOS was devised at a time well before the beginnings of the Internet. Trying to shoehorn any of such tasks into/onto DOS is just a world of hurt. Use DOS for what it is best and still useful, run on limited hardware or setups that need more direct access to hardware, like embedded devices. If you want to use the Internet and you have a recent machine, use Windows or Linux, that what they are good at. Use the best tool for the task... Ralf --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Ralf Quint wrote: > On 12/16/2014 2:50 PM, Louis Santillan wrote: >> On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, dmccunney wrote: >>> Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a >>> new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely >>> 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in >>> server installations for power savings. >> There are still new 32-bit x86 parts being manufactured, notably by >> Intel for IoT in their Intel Edison/Quark/Galileo platform(s) >> [0][1][2] and DM&P's 86duino platform [3]. The 86duino even boots >> FreeDOS. > Even if all Intel based PCs are equipped with 64bit capable CPUs, they > will just as happy run 32bit or even 16bit code just fine. Assuming OS support is there. The instruction set is the same. Various system calls may not be. If you want to run DOS apps on a 64 bit Windows machine, you need a VM or emulator. They won't run "native". > And there are as mentioned above now with the Intel Quark X1000 > processor again 32bit, single core/thread CPUs coming out for which a > 16bit FreeDOS can be a very viable option for an OS to run on... > > DOS is not dead but people need to treat DOS as DOS, not as a second > coming of Linux... The fundamental issue for DOS is exactly what you *do* with it, and *why* you might use DOS in preference to something else like Linux. The fact that something *can* run DOS doesn't necessarily mean it *should*. > Ralf __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Louis Santillan wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, dmccunney wrote: >> >> And why *should* they target legacy machines? Exactly how long is >> something supposed to be supported? >> >> Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a >> new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely >> 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in >> server installations for power savings. > > There are still new 32-bit x86 parts being manufactured, notably by > Intel for IoT in their Intel Edison/Quark/Galileo platform(s) > [0][1][2] and DM&P's 86duino platform [3]. The 86duino even boots > FreeDOS. Yes, there are plenty of 32 bit CPUs still being made, but increasingly they are for embedded applications. (For that matter, tehre are oodles of 8 bit and 16 bit parts still made for the same reasons.) I was talking about what you see if you go to purchase a desktop/laptop/netbook/what have you. IoT kit is not stuff end users will run to access the Internet and browse websites. __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On 12/16/2014 2:50 PM, Louis Santillan wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, dmccunney wrote: > Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a > new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely > 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in > server installations for power savings. > There are still new 32-bit x86 parts being manufactured, notably by > Intel for IoT in their Intel Edison/Quark/Galileo platform(s) > [0][1][2] and DM&P's 86duino platform [3]. The 86duino even boots > FreeDOS. > Even if all Intel based PCs are equipped with 64bit capable CPUs, they will just as happy run 32bit or even 16bit code just fine. And there are as mentioned above now with the Intel Quark X1000 processor again 32bit, single core/thread CPUs coming out for which a 16bit FreeDOS can be a very viable option for an OS to run on... DOS is not dead but people need to treat DOS as DOS, not as a second coming of Linux... Ralf --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 2:32 PM, dmccunney wrote: [SNIP] >> There is a pervasive bias against anything that isn't "Windows, OS X, >> or Linux", and those (at least in modern, supported versions) don't >> target legacy machines (esp. nothing older than a P4). The trend seems >> to be to eventually obsolete i686 entirely in lieu of AMD64 (and ARMv7 >> or even AArch64 [ARMv8?] or whatnot). > > And why *should* they target legacy machines? Exactly how long is > something supposed to be supported? > > Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a > new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely > 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in > server installations for power savings. There are still new 32-bit x86 parts being manufactured, notably by Intel for IoT in their Intel Edison/Quark/Galileo platform(s) [0][1][2] and DM&P's 86duino platform [3]. The 86duino even boots FreeDOS. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quark [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Edison [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Galileo [3] http://www.86duino.com/ -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Rugxulo wrote: > On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:59 AM, dmccunney wrote: >> On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Rugxulo wrote: >> >>> The point I'm trying to make is that it's pointless to pretend that >>> all web browsers (and OSes and cpus) are created equal. Most aren't >>> supported well, if at all. Even the developers who know how just don't >>> care enough. >>> >>> If you aren't using IE, Safari, Chrome, or Firefox, then you're >>> probably out of luck with anything more than the bare basics. >> >> Untrue. What you need is a current HTML and JavaScript engines. > > There is a pervasive bias against anything that isn't "Windows, OS X, > or Linux", and those (at least in modern, supported versions) don't > target legacy machines (esp. nothing older than a P4). The trend seems > to be to eventually obsolete i686 entirely in lieu of AMD64 (and ARMv7 > or even AArch64 [ARMv8?] or whatnot). And why *should* they target legacy machines? Exactly how long is something supposed to be supported? Hardware is steadily smaller, faster, and cheaper. Have fun finding a new x86 machine these days that *isn't* 64 bit. ARM is still largely 32 bit, but that's changing too, and we're likely to see 64 bit ARM in server installations for power savings. > It's not fun being on the receiving end of obsoletion. It's not always > for technical reasons either. No it's not fun. But in general, you're stuck with it. Hardware is cheap. If you can't *afford* to upgrade to something more modern and supported, you have far more important problems than software support for legacy hardware. >> In IE that's Trident. In Firefox, it's Gecko with IonMonkey. In >> Safari, it's Webkit and V8. In Chrome and now Opera, it's Blink and >> V8. > > These only give you the illusion of choice. In reality, you have no > say at all. Upstream decides everything, and they aren't always > considerate of end users. Oh, bullshit. Who is this "upstream" you speak of? There are multiple choices in browsers for reasonably current hardware (I think I have a dozen or so installed for testing.)They may be based on common underlying runtimes, but that's largely inevitable. The nature of the computer market is winnowing and things falling by the wayside until a few approaches dominate. And frankly, what most folks are looking for is freedom *from* choice, and a *reduction* in the number of things they must consciously consider and make decisions about. Offer folks two or three choices of something, and all is well. Offer a dozen, and watch activity grind to a halt. >> Flash isn't going away on the desktop, and is still maintained. I >> just had Firefox Nightly complain I was running an older and possibly >> vulnerable version of the plugin and updated. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Availability_on_desktop_operating_systems > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Alternatives I *did* say "on the *desktop*". I'm well aware Flash is going away in mobile. >> The principal use case for Flash is streaming video implemented as >> Flash objects, and there's still a batch of that around. As HTML5 >> becomes prevalent, that will go away (and making it go away and >> dispensing with the need to the Flash plugin is a major reason why >> people are pushing HTML5.) > > Flash is probably legitimately half dead. It's not well-supported > anymore. It was very popular (and still is), but there were many > people who actively hated it. It's hard to go against the grain. It's > hard to support or use something when everyone is fighting against it. I'll be just as happy when Flash is gone. For instance, I use Firefox, and Firefox has a plugin_helper application called from within it when a plugin is run. It provides a sandbox in which the plugin can execute so a crashing plugin doesn't take the browser with it. Guess which plugin was a worst offender that pushed Mozilla into creating plugin_helper? But I'm not holding my breath while Flash goes away. A technology that pervasive and deeply embedded doesn't simply go away overnight. IT needs to be replaced, and the content that used it recrafted in something else. __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Hi, On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 6:59 AM, dmccunney wrote: > On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Rugxulo wrote: > >> The point I'm trying to make is that it's pointless to pretend that >> all web browsers (and OSes and cpus) are created equal. Most aren't >> supported well, if at all. Even the developers who know how just don't >> care enough. >> >> If you aren't using IE, Safari, Chrome, or Firefox, then you're >> probably out of luck with anything more than the bare basics. > > Untrue. What you need is a current HTML and JavaScript engines. There is a pervasive bias against anything that isn't "Windows, OS X, or Linux", and those (at least in modern, supported versions) don't target legacy machines (esp. nothing older than a P4). The trend seems to be to eventually obsolete i686 entirely in lieu of AMD64 (and ARMv7 or even AArch64 [ARMv8?] or whatnot). It's not fun being on the receiving end of obsoletion. It's not always for technical reasons either. > In IE that's Trident. In Firefox, it's Gecko with IonMonkey. In > Safari, it's Webkit and V8. In Chrome and now Opera, it's Blink and > V8. These only give you the illusion of choice. In reality, you have no say at all. Upstream decides everything, and they aren't always considerate of end users. > Flash isn't going away on the desktop, and is still maintained. I > just had Firefox Nightly complain I was running an older and possibly > vulnerable version of the plugin and updated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Availability_on_desktop_operating_systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Flash#Alternatives > The principal use case for Flash is streaming video implemented as > Flash objects, and there's still a batch of that around. As HTML5 > becomes prevalent, that will go away (and making it go away and > dispensing with the need to the Flash plugin is a major reason why > people are pushing HTML5.) Flash is probably legitimately half dead. It's not well-supported anymore. It was very popular (and still is), but there were many people who actively hated it. It's hard to go against the grain. It's hard to support or use something when everyone is fighting against it. -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 3:05 PM, "Jose Antonio Senna" wrote: > I agree with D M Cunney that javascript is the most important > shortcoming of DOS browsers, but I think HTML5 less needed > than SSL v3 People are full speed ahead on HTML5 largely because the keyword will theoretically let you stream video without needing Flash. (You'll still be\need a codec, but that will be part of the browser, not a third-party plugin.) I use the Dillo browser in Linux, and Dillo doesn't support JavaScript. (There are longer term plans for it to do so, but they need to do extensive DOM support first.) In Linux, I use Dillo as a browser for local HTML files, where JavaScript is not a requirement. For web browsing, I use Firefox. I don't currently try to use a browser in DOS. Since I have a 100mbit broadband connection, and systems running Windows, Linux, and Android that can connect through it, there is no need for or point to trying to connect from DOS, and I don't bother. > JAS __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
Thomas Mueller said: > There are some Linux distros for older computers, and NetBSD and > FreeBSD can be installed on older computers. > But building packages or the system from source is likely to be > prohibitively slow on older machines. But these distros do not run newer browsers. Indeed, there will be even less apps available to a Linux distro that runs (plods ?) in a 486 or early Pentium than to DOS. > But there are some websites where lack of Flash support only stops > junk advertising from showing. Fortunately, most of those that use Flash fall in this category. I agree with D M Cunney that javascript is the most important shortcoming of DOS browsers, but I think HTML5 less needed than SSL v3 JAS -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 7:36 PM, Rugxulo wrote: > The point I'm trying to make is that it's pointless to pretend that > all web browsers (and OSes and cpus) are created equal. Most aren't > supported well, if at all. Even the developers who know how just don't > care enough. > > If you aren't using IE, Safari, Chrome, or Firefox, then you're > probably out of luck with anything more than the bare basics. Untrue. What you need is a current HTML and JavaScript engines. In IE that's Trident. In Firefox, it's Gecko with IonMonkey. In Safari, it's Webkit and V8. In Chrome and now Opera, it's Blink and V8. There are an assortment of browsers based on Qt and Webkit available. One I'm using is Qupzilla, open source and available for Windows, Linux, and OS/X (including a portable Windows version.) See http://www.qupzilla.com/ Another is QtWeb, which is lighter weight but has issues I'm not sure will get fixed. See http://qtweb.net/ Qupzilla has the virtue of being actively maintained. Flash isn't going away on the desktop, and is still maintained. I just had Firefox Nightly complain I was running an older and possibly vulnerable version of the plugin and updated. The principal use case for Flash is streaming video implemented as Flash objects, and there's still a batch of that around. As HTML5 becomes prevalent, that will go away (and making it go away and dispensing with the need to the Flash plugin is a major reason why people are pushing HTML5.) __ Dennis https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] HTML5/Javascript/Flash (was: Re: Quickview ver 2.60)
from Rugxulo: > "Light-weight"? First of all, Linux (and similarly Windows and Mac) > don't target older machines. To them, an old machine is i686 with 256 > MB of RAM, and even that is "too old" for most distros. The bare > minimum (for now) seems to be a Pentium 4, and that won't be supported > forever. I assume most developers want to go "AMD64 only", if they can > get away with it. > Flash is almost dead (AFAIK). I don't think it's even officially > supported at all except for P4s (SSE2) on Chrome's Pepper API > (although IE has most of it built-in as well, I think?). Firefox has > to use an older version. They might have even said they'll abandon it > entirely in a few years. The biggest problem is that it sucks up > battery life and is proprietary and buggy. Distros like GNU's Trisquel > (free/libre Ubuntu LTS variant) have Gnash which partially works > (YouTube is the obvious test case), but I don't know how reliable it > is overall (can't test everything!). There are some Linux distros for older computers, and NetBSD and FreeBSD can be installed on older computers. But building packages or the system from source is likely to be prohibitively slow on older machines. Flash is still painfully prevalent, see www.dekalbfarmersmarket.com : just a background and nothing more laguanajuatoky.com : partially viewable without Flash, but it's a nuisance; southwestfarmersmarket.com : very limited viewability without Flash But there are some websites where lack of Flash support only stops junk advertising from showing. Tom -- Download BIRT iHub F-Type - The Free Enterprise-Grade BIRT Server from Actuate! Instantly Supercharge Your Business Reports and Dashboards with Interactivity, Sharing, Native Excel Exports, App Integration & more Get technology previously reserved for billion-dollar corporations, FREE http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=164703151&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
