Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Xavier Dury]

Thanks for all the feedback! :-)

As I said before, DOSBox is not an option to me as I have already done it 
before on my PC and my RPi (there is nothing hard/challenging in installing 
DOSBox on windows or linux)... and don't get me wrong: I have absolutely 
nothing against emulators. It's just that I work everyday with linux/windows, 
hypervisors, containers, (java) VMs.

I wanted to try something different in my free time and somehow go back to my 
roots (DOS).

I initially wanted to run rpix86 on a RPi2 for its tiny form factor but it can 
only emulate a 486@20Mhz which is a bit slow for the last DOS games like Quake, 
DN3D, Magic Carpet, Hi-Octane... So I thought, why not use a recent x86 as DOS 
was intended to be run on instead of an ARM one.

I knew beforehand that it was going to be a challenge as I had so many 
questions (how does DOS behave with USB keyboard and mouse, UEFI, SATA, sound 
chips?) but that's where the fun is.

And I chose FreeDOS over MS-DOS because I had better hope it could handle the 
last x86 evolutions (the last version is only 4 years old while the last MS-DOS 
came with windows 98).

So, that's why I wanted to know if someone already did it:

- If yes then what are the difficulties?
- If no then why?
- Is it because nobody thought about doing that before? (I hardly doubt it)
- Is it because it's not possible anymore?
- Then, at what point in the x86 evolution have we lost the capability to run 
DOS (which ruled that platform for years)?

Now that I know that current sound chips aren't SB compatible at all, this is a 
blocking issue.

The 2 options I got left are indeed use DOSBox on linux (and launch DOSBox on 
boot to have something that looks like an old DOS computer) or dig up my old 
Pentium@166Mhz from the basement (but its size and noise are not so convenient 
and won't please my wife :-) ).

Once again, thank you for the great discussion and information.

Regards,

Xavier


> From: dennis.mccun...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 19:13:18 -0500
> To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 5:43 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:

 Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seem intent to *only* run atop this
 new Intel Compute stick thingy. Have you never tried a bootable USB before?
>>>
>>> His stated intent is to run old DOS games on a cheap HD monitor with
>>> the Compute Stick plugged into it. A bootable USB drive requires a
>>> computer to plug it into so you can boot from it. The Compute Stick
>>> *is* a bootable computer.
>>
>> Great, but so is the machine he's sending email from (which, more than
>> likely, already has a BIOS).
>
> Yep. But what if that's not what he wants to use that computer for?
> He's looking at a cheap, dedicated games device.
>
>> Besides, he hasn't bought either the stick *or* the monitor yet!
>> Surely he must've known that a simple bootable USB jump drive is
>> easier to find and get working (and cheaper too).
>
> I'm certain he does. At the moment, he's exploring whether his notion
> is doable.
>
> The answer seems to be, if he gets one that boots Windows or Linux and
> installs DOSBox, he can do it. If he insists on using FreeDOS, he has
> a problem because he may not be able to get it to boot due to the
> Compute Stick design.
> __
> Dennis
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 4:52 AM, Xavier Dury  wrote:
> Thanks for all the feedback! :-)
>
> As I said before, DOSBox is not an option to me as I have already done it 
> before on my PC and my RPi
> (there is nothing hard/challenging in installing DOSBox on windows or 
> linux)... and don't get me wrong:
> I have absolutely nothing against emulators. It's just that I work everyday 
> with linux/windows, hypervisors,
> containers, (java) VMs.

If you work every day with those, then do you know about VT-X?
"Unrestricted guest mode execution"? Hyper-V?

> I wanted to try something different in my free time and somehow go back to my 
> roots (DOS).
>
> I initially wanted to run rpix86 on a RPi2 for its tiny form factor but it 
> can only emulate a 486@20Mhz
> which is a bit slow for the last DOS games like Quake, DN3D, Magic Carpet, 
> Hi-Octane...

Yes, it's slow, especially if you choose such a (relatively) low-end
host cpu. That can barely be helped.
You could try some unofficial forks of DOSBox, but I don't know of any
perfect solution to speeding it
up on a RPi2.

Native x86 is fast, but it lacks sound. Even under DOSEMU, sound
doesn't always work.
(Although I played the heck out of Hexen2 [Hammer of Thyrion] under
DOSEMU in recent years, which is Quake-based.)

Most people would tell you to use a modern source port (e.g. Doom,
Quake, Duke Nukem 3D) compiled for Windows or Linux.
Seriously, if at all possible, the consensus is not to run under DOS
at all, if the .EXE can be recompiled. Heck, even Tyrian
was ported to modern systems.

> So I thought, why not use a recent x86 as DOS was intended to be run on 
> instead of an ARM one.

Sound is the big problem. But if you can live without that, then
you're "probably" okay (more or less).

> I knew beforehand that it was going to be a challenge as I had so many 
> questions
> (how does DOS behave with USB keyboard and mouse,

Depends on the built-in BIOS emulation (if any) and drivers.

> UEFI,

Depends on if CSM is available.

> SATA,

None.

> sound chips?)

Almost none.

> but that's where the fun is.

Depends on your level of patience and skill, but some things are
(almost) impossible.

> And I chose FreeDOS over MS-DOS because I had better hope it could handle the 
> last x86 evolutions
> (the last version is only 4 years old while the last MS-DOS came with windows 
> 98).

Nope, FreeDOS doesn't have extra cpu or driver support at all. And
there are no companies contributing in recent years to DOS at all.
There is no upstream interest in DOS as anything but bare bones (i.e.
minimal bootup to do low-level recovery or BIOS flashing).
DOS is not supported nor recommended by any big companies anymore.
Even hobbyist projects have mostly dropped it,
esp. once NTVDM got buggier and buggier (after XP) and AMD64 became
mainstream (no V86 mode).

> So, that's why I wanted to know if someone already did it:
>
> - If yes then what are the difficulties?
> - If no then why?
> - Is it because nobody thought about doing that before? (I hardly doubt it)
> - Is it because it's not possible anymore?
> - Then, at what point in the x86 evolution have we lost the capability to run 
> DOS (which ruled that platform for years)?

If you have a BIOS, you can run DOS. But 99% of the time, things like
sound don't work. And all the other stuff (power management,
multiple cores) is almost totally ignored or broken. There are no huge
modern enhancements to FreeDOS. If you're expecting
FreeBSD levels of compatibility with ultra-modern hardware, you're
sorely mistaken (sadly).

> Now that I know that current sound chips aren't SB compatible at all, this is 
> a blocking issue.
>
> The 2 options I got left are indeed use DOSBox on linux (and launch DOSBox on 
> boot to have something that looks like
> an old DOS computer) or dig up my old Pentium@166Mhz from the basement (but 
> its size and noise are not so convenient
> and won't please my wife :-) ).
>
> Once again, thank you for the great discussion and information.

I almost forgot that ReactOS has been heavily working on their own
NTVDM, and I just found a video of them playing Duke
Nukem 3D in (unreleased) 0.4 previews. So it's not all hopeless, but
that depends on whether you find that acceptable
or if you still insist on using exactly "DOS only" or not.

P.S. Did you hear about Retro City Rampage DX?

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