[Freedos-user] OT: What gives?

[Wesley Parish]

I just opened my inbox and found a pile of list emails from 2016-09-11 right up
to 2017-04-8.

Has it happened to anybody else?

Thanks

Wesley Parish

"I have supposed that he who buys a Method means to learn it." - Ferdinand Sor,
Method for Guitar

"A verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on." -- Samuel Goldwyn

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Re: [Freedos-user] A few words about AOL and Yahoo

[Jim Hall]

From: Jim Hall 

While AOL and Yahoo are interesting topics, they aren't related to
FreeDOS. We seem to be on a tangent, here.

Can this discussion get moved off the FreeDOS list?

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using USB Mass Storage on FreeDOS

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 10:02 AM, Ercan Ersoy  wrote:
>
> I tried using my USB mass storage on Virtualbox 5.0.36.

You mean "pass-through" or whatever, using native hardware under VM?
Doubt VBox supports that for DOS guests (since they don't have any
guest additions for DOS, last I heard).

> I using
> USBASPI.SYS and USBDOS programs. But, I don't use my mass storage.

USBASPI? That doesn't come with FreeDOS, AFAIK, hence it's probably
not supported nor recommended (and won't work).

> How can I using my mass storage on FreeDOS?

I'm not sure if you can. Half-jokingly, you should maybe try this:

http://ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/slackware-11.0/zipslack/

Better than nothing?  ;-)

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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

> > Felix Miata composed on 2017-04-24 23:07 (UTC-0400):...
> >> OS/2 needed the upgrade to MCP that eCS incorporated, and Dani's 506, DASD
> >> and ATAPI drivers to run on hardware that wasn't perfectly sync'd up to
> >> that in the PC hardware IBM was selling, or even when it did
> > I went to www.arcanoae.com, but some information was missing, such as GPT
> > support and 64-bit support.
> It runs on 64-bit CPUs as if on 32. AFAIK, there are no plans for foreseeable
> future for a 64-bit kernel.

> I have no idea about GPT support. Does any 32-bit OS support GPT?

> There are eCS mailing lists for those interested in clues to more of what's
> going on.

> ecs-techni...@yahoogroups.com
> ecomstat...@yahoogroups.com

> > I had difficulties with the OS/2 installers.  In the case of Warp 4, an
> > Iomega Zip drive showed with two different, consecutive letters, making it
> > difficult to find the proper drive letters.

> That kind of stuff is what using the Dani drivers usually alleviated.

I don't think Dani drivers existed when I installed OS/2 Warp 4 upgrade from
OS/2 Warp 3.

>From Wikipedia, eComStation does not support GPT.

But it is possible for a 32-bit OS.  Examples are Haiku, FreeBSD i386 and
NetBSD i386.

How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?

from Gregg Eshelman:

> [-- Attachment #1 --]
> [-- Type: multipart/alternative, Encoding: 7bit, Size: 3.0K --]
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="=_Part_3887213_246094375.1493105714797"
> Content-Length: 3052

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> Have you ever installed OS/2 Warp 3 Upgrade from floppies? I did, on a
Packard Bell 486 SX system with a 63 Mhz Pentium Overdrive. For some reason
once it got to the GUI stage and I was feeding it disk after disk, I'd have to
keep
> the mouse in constant motion while it was reading a disk or it'd freeze.
> What was the upgrade from? OS/2 2.something, also on floppies. I picked up
both really cheap somewhere, and after going through the process of installing
2.x then the Warp 3 upgrade I found out why it was cheap. ;)
> I also found out that tinkering with its massive config.sys file in any way
was an easy way to cause big problems.

I can no longer remember if OS/2 Warp 3 upgrade was all from floppies, or if is
was on a CD but with three kicker/boot floppies to start from.  Upgrade was
from OS/2 2.11 with fixpacks.

I could modify or add a few lines in the config.sys but not the whole thing.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] eComStation on yahoogroups (was: Quattro Pro release

[Felix Miata]

From: Felix Miata 

Thomas Mueller composed on 2017-04-25 21:04 (UTC):

>> ecs-techni...@yahoogroups.com
>> ecomstat...@yahoogroups.com

> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/eComStation/info
The former: 20 messages April, 0 March, 29 February, 30 January
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/eCS-Technical/info
The latter: 1, 4, 50, 24.
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Re: [Freedos-user] A few words about AOL and Yahoo

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

from dmccunney:

> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:

> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?

> Note that Verizon has acquired Yahoo and plans to rebrand it.  It
> already owned AOL.  It has informed Verizon email users that Verizon
> will no longer provide email services, and that they should create and
> switch to an AOL account for email.

> I do not expect them to maintain Yahoo email too, and I'll be more
> than a bit surprised if Yahoo Groups still exist after the dust
> settles.

> Note as well that if you post to a list like this from an AOL or Yahoo
> account, it is likely to be classified as spam.  AOL and Yahoo had a
> problem - both had been hacked, there were oodles of AOL and Yahoo
> addresses available for forgery, and it's trivial to change the From:
> header in email. Massive amounts of spam were emanating from forged
> AOL and Yahoo addresses.  To combat the problem, both turned on
> provisions of the DKIP specifications.  One required that all email
> from AOL and Yahoo accounts be digitally signed to prove it was from
> who it claimed to be from. Another required that the email not be
> *changed* in transit.

> This *broke* mailing lists, as the list software must modify the email
> headers as part of what it does.  The changes are noted in the
> modified headers, and what happens next depends on the recipient's
> email server.  Some simply discard the list mail undelivered as spam.
> Others accept delivery, but mark it spam, and it doesn't appear in the
> recipient's Inbox.  (GMail does that. Gregg Eshelman posts from a
> Yahoo account, and every one of his messages to the FreeDOS list gets
> labeled spam here and must be reclassified.)

> Folks complained, and AOL and Yahoo's response was essentially "Don't
> use mailing lists.  Use web forums like we provide."

> If you post from an AOL or Yahoo address, you have three choices:

> Don't participate in mailing lists

> Participate, but be aware not everyone may see your posts

> Find a different email provider

> Dennis

> Who hates to be the bearer of bad news, but...
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519

I have some @bellsouth.net inboxes/accounts from my days with bellsouth.net .

I also have an AOL free email account.

So I wonder how these will be affected.

For a time, about three weeks, POP3 download from bellsouth.net account was
very slow, and only one or two at a time.

That made me switch three mailing list subscriptions to twc.com .

There is also a freemail service at gmx.net as well as premium, paying email
account options.

Yahoo has been using an annoying CAPTCHA to get access to webmail or even
online help, with letters/numbers that didn't stay still but swam around, so I
couldn't solve the CAPTCHA.  And AT&T has the gall to send advertising for
their Internet service (DIRECTV or Uverse).

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] A few words about AOL and Yahoo

[Karen Lewellen]

From: Karen Lewellen 

All I can contribute to this discussion is that yahoogroups, many of them,
still exist. I am a member of several getting posts  from them each day.
However, I do not subscribe using either a yahoo or  aol e-mail, and never
had one from Verizon.
those I know with yahoo e-mails began changing after the last major hack a
few weeks back.
It is interesting that Verizon is getting out of the e-mail business, since
such  communications are a part of their sell phones.
While I can imagine they will want to dump yahoo e-mail, the hack was quite
extensive, I personally feel they may try to save yahoogroups, it is a
positive working generally well, at least for those not reading on yahoo.
Just my take,
Kare


On Tue, 25 Apr 2017, dmccunney wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:
>
>> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?
>
> Note that Verizon has acquired Yahoo and plans to rebrand it.  It
> already owned AOL.  It has informed Verizon email users that Verizon
> will no longer provide email services, and that they should create and
> switch to an AOL account for email.
>
> I do not expect them to maintain Yahoo email too, and I'll be more
> than a bit surprised if Yahoo Groups still exist after the dust
> settles.
>
> Note as well that if you post to a list like this from an AOL or Yahoo
> account, it is likely to be classified as spam.  AOL and Yahoo had a
> problem - both had been hacked, there were oodles of AOL and Yahoo
> addresses available for forgery, and it's trivial to change the From:
> header in email. Massive amounts of spam were emanating from forged
> AOL and Yahoo addresses.  To combat the problem, both turned on
> provisions of the DKIP specifications.  One required that all email
> from AOL and Yahoo accounts be digitally signed to prove it was from
> who it claimed to be from. Another required that the email not be
> *changed* in transit.
>
> This *broke* mailing lists, as the list software must modify the email
> headers as part of what it does.  The changes are noted in the
> modified headers, and what happens next depends on the recipient's
> email server.  Some simply discard the list mail undelivered as spam.
> Others accept delivery, but mark it spam, and it doesn't appear in the
> recipient's Inbox.  (GMail does that. Gregg Eshelman posts from a
> Yahoo account, and every one of his messages to the FreeDOS list gets
> labeled spam here and must be reclassified.)
>
> Folks complained, and AOL and Yahoo's response was essentially "Don't
> use mailing lists.  Use web forums like we provide."
>
> If you post from an AOL or Yahoo address, you have three choices:
>
> Don't participate in mailing lists
>
> Participate, but be aware not everyone may see your posts
>
> Find a different email provider
> __
> Dennis
> Who hates to be the bearer of bad news, but...
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Using USB Mass Storage on FreeDOS

[Ercan Ersoy]

From: Ercan Ersoy 

Thanks for replying.

After this, I won't use USBASPI on FreeDOS.

How can I use a USB mass storage that is formatted FAT16 or FAT32 on
FreeDOS with USBDOS?

Best regards,
Ercan
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Re: [Freedos-user] Using USB Mass Storage on FreeDOS

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

On USBASPI and USBDOS, I had zero luck.

But on a newer computer where USB drives are recognized by BIOS or UEFI,
FreeDOS can boot from USB stick.

Also, FreeDOS can access any USB stick with FAT32 if present at boot time.

FreeDOS did not recognize a USB stick inserted after FreeDOS was already
active.

FreeDOS was not able to access any USB stick with Linux or BSD file system, no
drive letter.

Drive letters look strange and feel clumsy to me after spending almost all my
computer time with OSes (Linux, BSD, Haiku) that don't use DOS-style drive
letters.


Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using USB Mass Storage on FreeDOS

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

> Thanks for replying.

> After this, I won't use USBASPI on FreeDOS.

> How can I use a USB mass storage that is formatted FAT16 or FAT32 on
> FreeDOS with USBDOS?

> Best regards,
> Ercan

If your BIOS or UEFI recognizes USB mass storage, then FreeDOS should recognize
it if it is in place at boot time.

I don't think FreeDOS can recognize a USB stick inserted after FreeDOS boots
and is active, but I could be wrong in the case of USBDOS.

FAT16 is very inefficient regarding cluster size, so on a USB stick, even if
only 1 GB, you do better with FAT32.

With FAT16, if file system is between 1 GB and 2 GB, cluster size is 32 KB,
meaning this is the amount of space taken by a very small file.

One way you can test diskspace use is to see (with DIR) how much space you
have, and then run something like
ECHO ababcdcdefefgg > JUNK1.TXT
and then run DIR and see how much diskspace you have after that.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Using USB Mass Storage on FreeDOS

[Ercan Ersoy]

From: Ercan Ersoy 

> If your BIOS or UEFI recognizes USB mass storage, then FreeDOS should
recognize
> it if it is in place at boot time.
>
> I don't think FreeDOS can recognize a USB stick inserted after FreeDOS boots
> and is active, but I could be wrong in the case of USBDOS.
>
> FAT16 is very inefficient regarding cluster size, so on a USB stick, even if
> only 1 GB, you do better with FAT32.
>
> With FAT16, if file system is between 1 GB and 2 GB, cluster size is 32 KB,
> meaning this is the amount of space taken by a very small file.
>
> One way you can test diskspace use is to see (with DIR) how much space you
> have, and then run something like
> ECHO ababcdcdefefgg > JUNK1.TXT
> and then run DIR and see how much diskspace you have after that.
>
> Tom
Before boot, I insert my mass storage to VirtualBox USB inferance. But,
FreeDOS doesn't mount the mass storage with USBDOS. USBUHCI.COM doesn't
recognize the mass storage.

I tried USBASPI.SYS on FreeDOS again. But, USBASPI.SYS doesn't work.

Best regards,
Ercan
//
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Re: [Freedos-user] Without DVD-ROM, USB working... install it from the

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

Coming back to this, this might not be exactly the solution to this
one specific problem, but I still feel like I should mention it
somewhere!


On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Jerome Shidel  wrote:
>
> On Mar 25, 2017, at 5:00 PM, Aleksei Ivan  wrote:
>
> My USB ports are NOT working too. I have only to work with a installation
> partition on this netbook.
>
>
> Well, it is always tricky to install an OS to a computer with a single
> drive, no USB, no CD, no Floppy. It is very difficult to boot anything other
> than the installed OS.
>
> So, your only viable option is to remove the drive from the Netbook and plug
> it into another PC.

FYI, GNU's GRUB 2.02 was just released. I don't know the full
changelog, but Phoronix says "better support for FreeDOS" (whatever
that means)! An earlier article says "improved FreeDOS direct loading
support"!

* http://www.gnu.org/software/grub/
* https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/GRUB2_Quick_Start

A quick search for "grub freedos" found some interesting links:

* https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Flashing_BIOS_from_Linux
* https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/BIOS_Update
* https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Bootable_DOS_USB_stick



"The mkpkg action will create the floppy image ... so that the user
can boot to the image from the hard drive to flash the BIOS, without
needing a floppy drive."

"The install action will create the biosdisk image, copy the image
file to /boot, and then update the bootloader with an entry for the
image. Then all the user has to do is boot the system and select the
image to flash the BIOS; this will load the biosdisk image directly
from the hard drive and flash the BIOS."

It also has a section called "Images that are too large for a floppy"
that grabs a 10 MB image from http://www.fdos.org/bootdisks/ . That
uses "mount -oloop" and says "The image can now be copied to a USB
stick for booting, or booted as a memdisk".

It also mentions genisoimage for adding 1.44 MB floppy image to .iso for
CD/DVD.

Or use the floppy image (as initrd) with GRUB via SysLinux's memdisk
(as kernel).

If needed, there's also geteltorito.pl that will extract .img from
..iso, which can then be copied to "USB thumbdrive".



The Gentoo wiki mentions fdboot.img and sys-freedos-linux. They create
a 20 MB image (via dd) and mkfs.fat, sys-freedos.pl on it, mount -o
loop, then copy files, etc.

"Booting the FreeDOS image from GRUB directly"

"To boot FreeDOS without any external media use the memdisk tool from
syslinux to allow grub (or another bootloader) to boot the FreeDOS
image directly." (Basically copy memdisk and freedos.img to /boot and
adjust grub.conf accordingly.)



The Bootable DOS USB (Gentoo) page is also interesting:

They mention using dd, cfdisk, ms-sys, mkfs.fat. They also use DOSEMU
(sys and xcopy) and test the raw USB device itself in QEMU.



So, in short, it's still overly complicated, but there are ways of doing it.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Using USB Mass Storage on FreeDOS

[Eric Auer]

From: Eric Auer 


Hi Ercan,

> After this, I won't use USBASPI on FreeDOS.
>
> How can I use a USB mass storage that is formatted
> FAT16 or FAT32 on FreeDOS with USBDOS?

as Thomas wrote: If you boot from USB drive or if the
USB drive is already plugged in at boot time, the BIOS
will often support it directly (if modern enough and if
for example legacy support is enabled in the BIOS setup)
so you will not even need drivers. Of course only FAT16
and FAT32 will work, not NTFS or EXFAT sticks. You can
assume that only newer / larger sticks use the latter,
or use Windows or Linux to re-format them to FAT16/32.

Cheers, Eric


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Re: [Freedos-user] A few words about AOL and Yahoo

[Felix Miata]

From: Felix Miata 

dmccunney composed on 2017-04-25 22:29 (UTC-0400):

> Verizon may keep Yahoo Groups active (but change the name as part of
> the re-branding.)

I hope it continues. A lot of useful help groups and archives will disappear if
it does not.

Before it became yahoogroups in 2001 it was eGroups, which IIRC was the
originator, not a rebrander. Before eGroups, mailing lists were primarily
created and maintained by various interests serving the specific groups that
needed them, using MajorDomo or software like it; before web forums existed,
when Usenet was still useful to and known by the majority of the minority of
people using the internet at all.
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[Freedos-user] Using USB Mass Storage on FreeDOS

[Ercan Ersoy]

From: Ercan Ersoy 

Hello,

I tried using my USB mass storage on Virtualbox 5.0.36. I using
USBASPI.SYS and USBDOS programs. But, I don't use my mass storage.

How can I using my mass storage on FreeDOS?

Thanks and best regards,
Ercan
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Re: [Freedos-user] A few words about AOL and Yahoo

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 11:59 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:
>
> I have some @bellsouth.net inboxes/accounts from my days with bellsouth.net .
>
> I also have an AOL free email account.
>
> So I wonder how these will be affected.

They shouldn't be affected at all.  Bell South is not part of Verizon.
It's a separate Baby Bell created by the breakup of the old AT&T.
Verizon owns AOL but it still exists.  Verizon is pushing former
verizon.net email accounts to move to AOL accounts instead.

> For a time, about three weeks, POP3 download from bellsouth.net account was
very slow, and only one or two at a time.
>
> That made me switch three mailing list subscriptions to twc.com .
>
> There is also a freemail service at gmx.net as well as premium, paying email
account options.

There are a variety of free web based email offers.  I'm betting
Yahoo's will go away, and possibly be mergered into AOL's offering.

> Yahoo has been using an annoying CAPTCHA to get access to webmail or even
online help, with letters/numbers that didn't stay still but swam around, so I
couldn't solve the CAPTCHA.  And AT&T has the gall to send advertising for
their Internet service (DIRECTV or Uverse).

Yahoo has been annoying for quite some time.  My gripe back when was
Yahoo's insistence on sending HTML email, even if you had configured
Yahoo Mail for plain text.  It was a problem for various Yahoo Groups
that were explicitly plain text and didn't want HTML formatted mail.

I have a Yahoo account, created as an alternate for testing, and one
mailing list I own and moderate also goes there as well as to my Gmail
account.  If it goes away, I won't miss it.

> Tom
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Re: [Freedos-user] A few words about AOL and Yahoo

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 9:54 PM, Karen Lewellen
 wrote:
> All I can contribute to this discussion is that yahoogroups, many of them,
> still exist. I am a member of several getting posts  from them each day.

I'm on several myself.  The question is how long they will *continue* to exist.

> However, I do not subscribe using either a yahoo or  aol e-mail, and never
> had one from Verizon.

Affected folks were Verizon subscribers with verizon.net addresses.

> those I know with yahoo e-mails began changing after the last major hack a
> few weeks back.

Yahoo had been hacked repeatedly.  The price Verizon paid to acquire
them dropped after due diligence revealed the full extent of the
hacking.

Reports about the most recent hack were revealed in December 2016, but
were unclear about when the breaches actually took place,  (It's the
sort of thing that can remain unnoticed till rather after it actually
takes place.  The damage was likely already done.)

> It is interesting that Verizon is getting out of the e-mail business, since
> such  communications are a part of their sell phones.

That's not quite what's happening.  As mentioned, Verizon owns AOL.
Verizon itself just wants to provide connectivity, through their
cellular and FIOS services.  It doesn't want to provide content served
by their connectivity.  Effectively, they are transferring email
provisioning to a wholly owned subsidiary who is in that business.
Verizon sees no need to duplicate something AOL does, and is simply
trying to hand it off to AOL.  (My suspicion is that Gmail is more
likely to be the email service Verizon users with switch to.  Changing
to a new provider is a regal pain, and Verizon users are not happy
about being told they have to.)

> While I can imagine they will want to dump yahoo e-mail, the hack was quite
> extensive, I personally feel they may try to save yahoogroups, it is a
> positive working generally well, at least for those not reading on yahoo.

Possible.  It's all about the money.  What does it cost to provision
and maintain Yahoo Groups?  What will Verizon *make* from the service?

Like any other big outfit, Verizon management has a fiduciary
responsibility to invest corporate funds in things that provide the
highest return.  (And management can be sued by shareholders who think
they *aren't* doing so.)  I've seen corporate divisions folded because
while the operation was profitable, it wasn't profitable *enough*.

Verizon may keep Yahoo Groups active (but change the name as part of
the re-branding.)  I'm just not making any bets on it.

> Just my take,
> Kare
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

none

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:40:27 + (UTC) Gregg Eshelman
 writes:
> Any plan to share this find? :)
>
>
> On Monday, April 24, 2017, 9:07:19 AM MDT, Dale E Sterner
>  wrote:It is pure dos abandoned when corel went
> to windows.
> Sounded like it came out of the trash can type.
> It is somewhat unfinished - a few nasty bugs but nothing
> to make it unusable. There was no documentation
> with it. Just a corel factory made cd.
> Its a pity they quit on it.


**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


Actress Maggie Q Shocks With Her Solution To Tummy Troubles
Activated You
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/58ff610f715ae610f5969st01duc

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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases

[Felix Miata]

From: Felix Miata 

dmccunney composed on 2017-04-25 08:53 (UTC-0400):

> Felix Miata composed on 2017-04-24 23:07 (UTC-0400):
>> I was never able to figure out how to make any of
>> the non-OS/2 DOS emulators do SVGA text modes, required to produce the 132
>> column text modes that make QPro so valuable to me.

> the few holdouts running DOS apps don't need OS/2 to do it.

How do you reconcile what I wrote, which you failed to quote in response to my
post, with what you wrote? How do you get *any* DOS emulator besides OS/2 to
run
the proprietary native SVGA text modes required to run QPro at 132 columns,
like
I do 24/7 with eCS?
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[Freedos-user] A few words about AOL and Yahoo

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Tue, Apr 25, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:

> How busy are those eCS lists on Yahoogroups?

Note that Verizon has acquired Yahoo and plans to rebrand it.  It
already owned AOL.  It has informed Verizon email users that Verizon
will no longer provide email services, and that they should create and
switch to an AOL account for email.

I do not expect them to maintain Yahoo email too, and I'll be more
than a bit surprised if Yahoo Groups still exist after the dust
settles.

Note as well that if you post to a list like this from an AOL or Yahoo
account, it is likely to be classified as spam.  AOL and Yahoo had a
problem - both had been hacked, there were oodles of AOL and Yahoo
addresses available for forgery, and it's trivial to change the From:
header in email. Massive amounts of spam were emanating from forged
AOL and Yahoo addresses.  To combat the problem, both turned on
provisions of the DKIP specifications.  One required that all email
from AOL and Yahoo accounts be digitally signed to prove it was from
who it claimed to be from. Another required that the email not be
*changed* in transit.

This *broke* mailing lists, as the list software must modify the email
headers as part of what it does.  The changes are noted in the
modified headers, and what happens next depends on the recipient's
email server.  Some simply discard the list mail undelivered as spam.
Others accept delivery, but mark it spam, and it doesn't appear in the
recipient's Inbox.  (GMail does that. Gregg Eshelman posts from a
Yahoo account, and every one of his messages to the FreeDOS list gets
labeled spam here and must be reclassified.)

Folks complained, and AOL and Yahoo's response was essentially "Don't
use mailing lists.  Use web forums like we provide."

If you post from an AOL or Yahoo address, you have three choices:

Don't participate in mailing lists

Participate, but be aware not everyone may see your posts

Find a different email provider
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:
> On Monday, April 24, 2017, 9:29:48 AM MDT, dmccunney
>  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Dale E Sterner 
> wrote:
>> I think there must have been a 5.5 otherwise you wouldn't
>> have a 5.6.
>
>> The problem for both products was failure to keep up with the market.
>> Micropro took its eye off the WordStar ball and attempted to
>> diversify.  WordPerfect ate them for lunch.  Word Perfect waited too
>> long to develop a Windows version.  By the time they did, MS Word
>> owned the word processing market.

> The original WordStar for CP/M was written in Z-80 assembly language by Rob
> Barnaby , in about a month. He was the principle coder on it until the last
> release prior to 4.0.

Yep.  
https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20161007172455/http://www.wordstar.org/index.php/wordstar-history

> When he left the company is when thing started to go
> downhill for MicroPro. WordStar for DOS used slow DOS system functions for
> the keyboard and display and lagged way behind on supporting subdirectories.

I have a copy of WS7.  You have to use the install program to specify
where things live.  It apparently isn't capable of searching the PATH
or looking in sub-directories of the install directory to find its
components.  I shook my head in wonder.

Using BIOS functions for keyboard and video was a hangover from the
origin in CP/M.

> WordPerfect for DOS was written in 8088 assembly.

Lots of things were.  One of the word processors I used was XYWrite,
which I described as a programming language for manipulating test
wrapped in an editor disguise.  The lead developer coded in Assembler
on an original 4.77 mhz IBM PC well after 25mhz AT machines were
common.  He apparently felt that if he could get it to perform well on
an original PC, it would fly on anything later.

(XYWrite survives on Windows as Nota Bene, aimed at the scholarly
market.  Nota Bene was originally an OEM repackage of XYWrite.
XYWrite was a bit like Gnu Emacs - extraordinarily powerful, but you
had to customize it to really use it, and knowing how to do so imposed
a learning curve.  Nota Bene had a much friendlier and and more easily
learned default interface, which is a reason why it still exists.
XYWrite's own Windows version was a non-starter.)

A DOS product I still use here is Eric Meyer's VDE.  VDE also dates
from the CP/M days, and was written in Z-80 assembler as an
alternative to WordStar under CP/M, using the WordStar command set.
Unlike real WordStar, VDE did everything in one file without overlays.
Eric ported it to DOS and it was a popular shareware product for
years. These days, it's supported freeware.  Eric is still around, and
there's a sporadically active VDE mailing list.  See
https://sites.google.com/site/vdeeditor/ for info and downloads.

> Corel was a poor steward of WordPerfect. They dropped the Macintosh version
> at 3.5e. The last Windows version released by Corel was horrible. I tried
> doing an HTML document once. I had things all laid out and saved it. The
> document opened OK in a web browser. I reloaded it into WP, made some
> changes and saved it. Checked it again in a browser and it was all screwed
> up. Reloaded into WP and it was bad there too. If you could do 100% of
> everything in HTML in one go with that version of WP for Windows, it was
> fine, but it couldn't re-open and re-save HTML that it was used to create.

That's not really a surprise.  Corel didn't write most of what they
sell.  They acquired if from others, and are essentially supporting a
static market.

I wouldn't attempt to use *any* word processor to create HTML documents.

> Microsoft had Word for Mac before they came out with a Windows version, so
> were ahead of the competition when it came to a GUI word processor.

If they wanted to support the Mac, they had to.  Mac OS Classic didn't
*have* a command line.

But yes, being an early developer for a GUI environment gave MS a
considerable leg up.
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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases

[Felix Miata]

From: Felix Miata 

Thomas Mueller composed on 2017-04-25 06:56 (UTC):

> Felix Miata composed on 2017-04-24 23:07 (UTC-0400):...
>> OS/2 needed the upgrade to MCP that eCS incorporated, and Dani's 506, DASD
>> and ATAPI drivers to run on hardware that wasn't perfectly sync'd up to
>> that in the PC hardware IBM was selling, or even when it did
> I went to www.arcanoae.com, but some information was missing, such as GPT
> support and 64-bit support.
It runs on 64-bit CPUs as if on 32. AFAIK, there are no plans for foreseeable
future for a 64-bit kernel.

I have no idea about GPT support. Does any 32-bit OS support GPT?

There are eCS mailing lists for those interested in clues to more of what's
going on.

ecs-techni...@yahoogroups.com
ecomstat...@yahoogroups.com

> I had difficulties with the OS/2 installers.  In the case of Warp 4, an
> Iomega Zip drive showed with two different, consecutive letters, making it
> difficult to find the proper drive letters.

That kind of stuff is what using the Dani drivers usually alleviated.

> DOS and OS/2 FDISK led me to believe, erroneously, that a hard drive could
> have only one primary partition, in addition to logical partitions.

> Linux fdisk taught me better.

I use none of the native partitioners since somewhere around 1999. DFSee, while
not free, avoids potential incompatibilities, since it writes identical tables
and legacy compatible MBR code whether used booted to DOS, OS/2, Windows, Linux
or Mac.
http://www.dfsee.com/
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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

> Thomas Mueller composed on 2017-04-25 02:07 (UTC):

> > I ran Quattro Pro through 5 in OS/2 Warp 3 and 4 until that final OS/2
crash
> > in the single-digit days of April 2001.

> > OS/2 froze, did not dismount cleanly.  On reboot, CHKDSK, run
automatically,
> > ran amok and trashed my hard-disk data.

> OS/2 needed the upgrade to MCP that eCS incorporated, and Dani's 506, DASD
and
> ATAPI drivers to run on hardware that wasn't perfectly sync'd up to that in
the
> PC hardware IBM was selling, or even when it did.

> > I was never again able to boot OS/2 again even from installation or other
> > floppies: trap 000c or 000e.

> > OS/2 must have panicked at the state of the hard drive(s), while Linux
> > starter floppy booted, and Linux fdisk was runnable.

> I never liked the OS/2, Warp or eCS installers, though the CD versions were
and
> are far less frustrating. I eventually found installation infrequently
> necessary. Once the SDD/Snap video drivers arrived, I found migrating a
working
> disk or a clone thereof from one PC to another to be much easier. I stuck to
> always having OS/2 on an F: partition both before and after LVM came on the
> scene, only installing to any other letter on a test basis.

> > I used DR-DOS 7.03 for some years.

> > I can still run Quattro Pro 5 for DOS in FreeDOS, or FreeBSD, NetBSD or
Linux
> > with DOSBox.

> > Now I see how eComStation has greatly fallen behind, and FreeBSD and NetBSD
> > now seem to have much better hardware support than eComStation.

> > I can even rsync a FreeBSD or NetBSD installation to USB stick and make it
> > bootable.  I don't think you can do that with eComStation.
> I keep several PCs competent to run the eCS version I use simply by
transferring
> a HD with eCS on F: into it. I was never able to figure out how to make any
of
> the non-OS/2 DOS emulators do SVGA text modes, required to produce the 132
> column text modes that make QPro so valuable to me.

> eCS works much better than DesqView and QEMM ever did with "large" file I/O,
> which is truly dismal in any DOS I ever seriously tried. And of course, eCS
is
> useful for other things. QPro is one of those apps where the better DOS than
DOS
> objective of OS/2 really shines.

> eCS has a replacement "Blue Lion" coming online soon. Final beta was supposed
to
> happen today or yesterday:

> https://www.arcanoae.com/

> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

I went to www.arcanoae.com, but some information was missing, such as GPT
support and 64-bit support.

It looks like any one of NetBSD, FreeBSD and Linux would do better, and easier
to get around in.

I had difficulties with the OS/2 installers.  In the case of Warp 4, an Iomega
Zip drive showed with two different, consecutive letters, making it difficult
to find the proper drive letters.

I used 3D (.WQ2) with Quattro Pro.  What if you have data for each month of the
year?  Third dimension is 12 deep.

There is also open-source spreadsheet Teapot at
https://www.syntax-k.de/projekte/teapot/

Latest version is 2.3.0 (2012-02-06).

DOS and OS/2 FDISK led me to believe, erroneously, that a hard drive could have
only one primary partition, in addition to logical partitions.

Linux fdisk taught me better.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 


On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:07 PM, Felix Miata  wrote:

> eCS works much better than DesqView and QEMM ever did with "large" file I/O,
> which is truly dismal in any DOS I ever seriously tried. And of course, eCS
is
> useful for other things. QPro is one of those apps where the better DOS than
DOS
> objective of OS/2 really shines.
>
> eCS has a replacement "Blue Lion" coming online soon. Final beta was supposed
to
> happen today or yesterday:
>
> https://www.arcanoae.com/

*sigh*

> rCaable to run OS/2, Windows 3.1, and DOS applications

Only existing OS/2 users run OS/2 apps, I don't think *anyone* runs
Win 3.1 apps, and the few holdouts running DOS apps don't need OS/2 to
do it.

> rCaable to run ported Linux applications

And the key will be which Linux apps get ported, and how hard a job
that will be.

This may well be a decent followup to eComStation for the OS/2
community, but I don't see it gaining converts elsewhere.  It needs to
either support Linux apps "native", or run Win32 apps, or both.  Lack
of 64 bit support is also a major minus.

Tell me why anyone who *isn't* already an OS/2 user might get this?
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases

[Mikkel C. Simonsen]

From: "Mikkel C. Simonsen" 


dmccunney wrote:
> Only existing OS/2 users run OS/2 apps, I don't think *anyone* runs
> Win 3.1 apps,

I do, so there's at least one... PageMaker, CorelDRAW! and Photoshop is
in regular use. And also more spezialised stuff like Keil -|Vision and
some filter design tools.

> Tell me why anyone who *isn't* already an OS/2 user might get this?

Probably none - and so what?

Best regards,

Mikkel


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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:

> It seemed strange that a version of Quattro Pro following 5 would be 5.6 as
opposed to 5.1 or 5.5.

Versions are frequently skipped when software is released.  Remember
Dale said this was *unreleased* software.  (I don't recall offhand
whether there was an actual Quattro 5.5 release.)

> Now I migrate as much as possible to Gnumeric.

What has your experience been?

> In the days of Quattro Pro 5 for DOS, I never heard of wi-fi or BSD
checksums.

Back then, Wifi didn't exist, and BSD required an AT&T source license
to run, since it derived from AT&T code.  Checksums were around, but
rather simpler and easily spoofed.  Nobody cared about that because no
one was *trying* to.

> Tom
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Re: [Freedos-user] EtherDFS v0.8.1

[Andy Stamp]

From: Andy Stamp 

--===2563758283038139191==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c18fde04c45b6054df36822

--94eb2c18fde04c45b6054df36822
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Hi Mateusz,

I've been following your posts both here and on the VCF forum (
http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57027-EtherDFS-an-ethernet-drive-for-DOS)
and was inspired to pick up a Xircom PE3 adapter to help move files to and
from my old XT with a bad FDC.

I set up a Linux VM with a FAT32 partition for the server and was playing
with version 0.8.1 on my 486 and it was working great. Loaded Lotus 123
right off the network (and faster than I expected).

My question is: Does the server/protocol support multiple simultaneous
connections?
If so, should I try to avoid accessing the same files from both clients?

Thanks,
--Andy

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Mateusz Viste 
wrote:

> Hello group,
>
> Not that long ago I announced here a new software I have created, named
> EtherDFS. EtherDFS is an 'installable filesystem' TSR for DOS. It maps a
> drive from a remote computer (typically Linux-based) to a local drive
> letter, using raw ethernet frames to communicate.
>
> Last weekend I released a new version of EtherDFS, the version 0.8.1. If
> you're using EtherDFS, then upgrading to this latest version is highly
> recommended, as it significantly improves the protocol's reliability
> (especially important with buggy NICs that sometime send more data than
> actually requested by the application - observed at least on Xircom PE3
> dongles, but might happen on other hardware as well).
>
> Changelog since v0.6:
>
> [version 0.8.1]
>  - EtherDFS frames are validated by a cksum (can be disabled with /n),
>  - EDF5 frames announce their length to avoid troubles with Ethernet
> padding,
>  - arguments can be passed in any order,
>  - /q and /u can be used together.
>
> [version 0.8]
>  - improved self-detection to avoid loading EtherDFS twice,
>  - added unloading support (/u),
>  - fixed a FindFirst regression (fixes usage under 4DOS),
>  - fixed SETATTR action when using a non-FreeDOS attrib command,
>  - implemented the 'Seek From End' call,
>  - minor memory optimizations,
>  - makes sure the redirector API is available before installing,
>  - support for multiple drive mappings.
>
> [version 0.7]
>  - MS-DOS compat: flagging newly mapped drive so MS-DOS doesn't ignore it,
>  - fixed FindNext behavior so it's compatible with ATTRIB from MS-DOS,
>  - implemented the "Special Open" call (used by COPY in MSDOS 5.0 and
> 6.x),
>  - increased timeout retries from 3 to 5 (more reliable on lossy
> networks),
>  - fixed parsing of the MAC address provided on command-line,
>  - minor speed optimizations.
>
> Project's website: http://etherdfs.sourceforge.net
>
> Mateusz
>
>
> 
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--94eb2c18fde04c45b6054df36822
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Mateusz,I've been following your
posts both here and on the VCF forum (http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57027-EtherDFS-an-ethernet-drive-for-DOS";>http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?57027-EtherDFS-an-ethernet-drive-for-DOS)
 and was inspired to pick up a Xircom PE3 adapter to help move files to and 
from my old XT with a bad FDC.I set up a Linux VM 
with a FAT32 partition for the server and was playing with version 0.8.1-aon my 
486 and it was working great. Loaded Lotus 123 right off the network (and 
faster than I expected).My question is: Does the 
server/protocol support multiple simultaneous connections?If so, 
should I try to avoid accessing the same files from both 
clients?Thanks,--Andy-aOn Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 5:06 
AM, Mateusz Viste mate...@nospam.viste.fr> wrote:Hello group,

Not that long ago I announced here a new software I have created, named
EtherDFS. EtherDFS is an 'installable filesystem' TSR for DOS. It maps
a
drive from a remote computer (typically Linux-based) to a local drive
letter, using raw ethernet frames to communicate.

Last weekend I released a new version of EtherDFS, the version 0.8.1. If
you're using EtherDFS, then upgrading to this latest version is highly
recommended, as it significantly improves the protocol's reliability
(especially important with buggy NICs that sometime send more data than
actually requested by the application - observed at least on Xircom PE3
dongles, but might happen on other hardware as well).

Changelog since v0.6:

[version 0.8.1]
-a- EtherDFS frames are validated by a cksum (can be disabled with /n),
-a-

Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[Dan Schmidt]

From: Dan Schmidt 

--===8759580214405937345==
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--001a1140137c0b54bd054df6b1bf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

That is a router, I can't guarantee it would work. (unless you put openwrt
on it)  However, this is built specifically to bridge:

https://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Universal-Ethernet-Adapter-GWU627/dp/B004UAKCS6

Takes around 20 seconds to connect, which is longer than it takes DOS to
boot on my machine.  (can be powered by usb)

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Ulrich Hansen  wrote:

>
> > Am 24.04.2017 um 07:07 schrieb Dan Schmidt :
> >
> > Is this thread still about wireless for Dos?  If not, sorry for posting.
> >
> > If so, I bought a wireless to ethernet bridge - smaller than a deck of
> cards, runs on usb power - works great for my Dos machine.  I tried a wifi
> card that supposedly supported dos - never could get it working, threw it
> away in disgust.
>
> This sounds interesting. Is it something like this?
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TQEX8BO/ref=psdc_300189_t2_B00HZWOQZ6
> Thanks for the hint.
> 
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>

--001a1140137c0b54bd054df6b1bf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

That is a router, I can't guarantee it would work.
(unless you put openwrt on it)-a However, this is built specifically to
bridge:https://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Universal-Ethernet-Adapter-GWU627/dp/B004UAKCS6";>https://www.amazon.com/IOGEAR-Universal-Ethernet-Adapter-GWU627/dp/B004UAKCS6Takes
 around 20 seconds to connect, which is longer than it takes DOS to boot on my 
machine.-a (can be powered by usb)On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 3:39 PM, Ulrich Hansen my.gr...@mailbox.org> wrote:
> Am 24.04.2017 um 07:07 schrieb Dan Schmidt helpdesk...@gmail.com>:
>
> Is this thread still about wireless for Dos?-a If not, sorry for
posting.
>
> If so, I bought a wireless to ethernet bridge - smaller than a deck of
cards, runs on usb power - works great for my Dos machine.-a I tried a wifi
card that supposedly supported dos - never could get it working, threw it away
in disgust.

This sounds interesting. Is it something like this?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TQEX8BO/ref=psdc_300189_t2_B00HZWOQZ6";
rel="noreferrer" 
target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TQEX8BO/ref=psdc_300189_t2_B00HZWOQZ6
Thanks for the hint.
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

I think there must have been a 5.5 otherwise you wouldn't
have a 5.6. I only use the wordperfect off the disk - yet.
Some lady on the web sells a dos wordperfect update
to 6.2 and I also bought that - Corel autherized.

cheers
DS


On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:52:57 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Thomas Mueller 
> wrote:
>
> > It seemed strange that a version of Quattro Pro following 5 would
> be 5.6 as opposed to 5.1 or 5.5.
>
> Versions are frequently skipped when software is released.  Remember
> Dale said this was *unreleased* software.  (I don't recall offhand
> whether there was an actual Quattro 5.5 release.)
>
> > Now I migrate as much as possible to Gnumeric.
>
> What has your experience been?
>
> > In the days of Quattro Pro 5 for DOS, I never heard of wi-fi or
> BSD checksums.
>
> Back then, Wifi didn't exist, and BSD required an AT&T source
> license
> to run, since it derived from AT&T code.  Checksums were around, but
> rather simpler and easily spoofed.  Nobody cared about that because
> no
> one was *trying* to.
>
> > Tom
> __
> Dennis
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
>
>
-
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


Eat This Herb To Reverse Hearing Loss
Navajo Hearing System
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/58fe15db7039a15db762dst01duc

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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

from dmccunney:

> dmccunney composed on 2017-04-23 17:52 (UTC-0400):

> > Versions are frequently skipped when software is released.  Remember
> > Dale said this was *unreleased* software.  (I don't recall offhand
> > whether there was an actual Quattro 5.5 release.)

> QPro 5.5 was released by Novell. I still have its manuals, and still keep 5.6
> running 24/7 (in OS/2 in its eComStation incarnation).

> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

I ran Quattro Pro through 5 in OS/2 Warp 3 and 4 until that final OS/2 crash in
the single-digit days of April 2001.

OS/2 froze, did not dismount cleanly.  On reboot, CHKDSK, run automatically,
ran amok and trashed my hard-disk data.

I was never again able to boot OS/2 again even from installation or other
floppies: trap 000c or 000e.

OS/2 must have panicked at the state of the hard drive(s), while Linux starter
floppy booted, and Linux fdisk was runnable.

I used DR-DOS 7.03 for some years.

I can still run Quattro Pro 5 for DOS in FreeDOS, or FreeBSD, NetBSD or Linux
with DOSBox.

Now I see how eComStation has greatly fallen behind, and FreeBSD and NetBSD now
seem to have much better hardware support than eComStation.

I can even rsync a FreeBSD or NetBSD installation to USB stick and make it
bootable.  I don't think you can do that with eComStation.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro (was: Corel dos eba...)

[Felix Miata]

From: Felix Miata 

dmccunney composed on 2017-04-24 22:22 (UTC-0400):

> Thomas Mueller wrote:

>> My experience with Gnumeric is favorable.  There are differences in syntax
and navigation with Quattro Pro for DOS.

>> Quattro Pro three-dimensional spreadsheets are practically impossible to
import, even Excel can't do that.

I don't try. On the rare occasions that I need content from a QPro file
elsewhere, I get by exporting as .WK1.

> How much use do you make of the 3D feature?
Depends how one defines "3D". With 3D defined as multi-sheet/page files, I use
it a lot. Of the 9 files I have open ATM, 3 are .WQ2.

3D as a graphical concept in a QPro context I know nothing about.
--
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 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 9:41 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:

> My experience with Gnumeric is favorable.  There are differences in syntax
and navigation with Quattro Pro for DOS.
>
> Quattro Pro three-dimensional spreadsheets are practically impossible to
import, even Excel can't do that.

How much use do you make of the 3D feature?

> Gnumeric runs on Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD, but is not portable to Haiku.

No surprise, but who runs Haiku?

> Regarding BSD requiring AT&T source license, are you talking about FreeBSD,
NetBSD or BSDI?

I was referring to before FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD existed.

> I don't think FreeBSD and NetBSD required AT&T source license, even in their
early days.

They came about rather late in the game.

BSD originated as a fork of AT&T Unix.  Back then, AT&T was still Ma
Bell, the regulated national telecommunications monopoly.

AT&T developed Unix for internal use, and wasn't allowed to *sell* it.
They *could* give it away in unsupported source form* to accredited
educational institutions.  One institution who took them up on it was
the University of California at Berkeley, and UCB's Computer Research
Group jumped on it and ran with it.  The Berkeley Standard
Distribution was CRG's hacks on AT&T code, and various things they
developed like the C shell, the vi editor, and termcap found their way
back into AT&T Unix.  Sun Microsystems co-founder Bill Joy was a grad
student in computer science at UCB, and principal architect of BSD
Unix.  (Guess which flavor of Unix Sun chose for their systems when
they started making boxes? :-) )  BSD was adopted by other
institutions, but because it had roots in and still contained AT&T
code, you needed an AT&T source license to run it.

* A friend active back then said you *could* get support from AT&T -
you just had to know who to call at Bell Labs and have a verifiable
bug to report or suggestion or question they considered interesting.
:-)

Things changed after the consent decree that ended the Justice
Department anti-trust suit against AT&T, and AT&T got broken up into
the Baby Bells.  AT&T was able to get into the computer business, and
AT&T System V became the basis of various commercial offerings.  AT&T
also sold hardware, both manufactured internally by Western Electric
(the 3B2 line), acquired from elsewhere in an OEM deal (The AT&T
Unix-PS and 3B1 machines, made by Convergent Technologies, which is
part of Unisys now), and PCs made by Olivetti, who AT&T bought.

BSD code was steadily modified to remove any code originally developed
by AT&T, and offerings like FreeBSD, NetBSD, and OpenBSD were the
result.

The Gnu Project had already produced open source versions of the
standard utilities that came with Unix, and both Linux and *BSD
bundled them.  Essentially, what differed between Linux and BSD was
the OS kernel.

> I remember when FreeBSD floppy boot disks would hang "Probing for
devices...", and I couldn't get any further.

That's an area Linux has gotten a lot better about, and a reason I run
Ubuntu.  The.last I looked, BSD was still "batteries not included" and
"some assembly required", so it never got the penetration Linux did.

> Tom
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases

[Felix Miata]

From: Felix Miata 

Thomas Mueller composed on 2017-04-25 02:07 (UTC):

> I ran Quattro Pro through 5 in OS/2 Warp 3 and 4 until that final OS/2 crash
> in the single-digit days of April 2001.

> OS/2 froze, did not dismount cleanly.  On reboot, CHKDSK, run automatically,
> ran amok and trashed my hard-disk data.

OS/2 needed the upgrade to MCP that eCS incorporated, and Dani's 506, DASD and
ATAPI drivers to run on hardware that wasn't perfectly sync'd up to that in the
PC hardware IBM was selling, or even when it did.

> I was never again able to boot OS/2 again even from installation or other
> floppies: trap 000c or 000e.

> OS/2 must have panicked at the state of the hard drive(s), while Linux
> starter floppy booted, and Linux fdisk was runnable.

I never liked the OS/2, Warp or eCS installers, though the CD versions were and
are far less frustrating. I eventually found installation infrequently
necessary. Once the SDD/Snap video drivers arrived, I found migrating a working
disk or a clone thereof from one PC to another to be much easier. I stuck to
always having OS/2 on an F: partition both before and after LVM came on the
scene, only installing to any other letter on a test basis.

> I used DR-DOS 7.03 for some years.

> I can still run Quattro Pro 5 for DOS in FreeDOS, or FreeBSD, NetBSD or Linux
> with DOSBox.

> Now I see how eComStation has greatly fallen behind, and FreeBSD and NetBSD
> now seem to have much better hardware support than eComStation.

> I can even rsync a FreeBSD or NetBSD installation to USB stick and make it
> bootable.  I don't think you can do that with eComStation.
I keep several PCs competent to run the eCS version I use simply by
transferring
a HD with eCS on F: into it. I was never able to figure out how to make any of
the non-OS/2 DOS emulators do SVGA text modes, required to produce the 132
column text modes that make QPro so valuable to me.

eCS works much better than DesqView and QEMM ever did with "large" file I/O,
which is truly dismal in any DOS I ever seriously tried. And of course, eCS is
useful for other things. QPro is one of those apps where the better DOS than
DOS
objective of OS/2 really shines.

eCS has a replacement "Blue Lion" coming online soon. Final beta was supposed
to
happen today or yesterday:

https://www.arcanoae.com/
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

For the most part dos moves well between machines.
Did have trouble with cutemouse & jemmex. On
some machines they hang up.
What is the difference between Lubuntu & Ubuntu.
What difference does the L make.


cheers
DS



On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:29:26 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Dale E Sterner
>  wrote:
> > I run my pure DOS on a CF chip and move it from one
> > machine to another on a cf chip. Try doing that with windows.
>
> You can't.  Windows will detect it's on a new machine, and complain.
>
> But if you run Windows, that's not something you *want* to do, or
> have
> *reason* to do.
>
> You might be able to do something like that with Linux.  How well it
> would work would depend on the machines you were moving between.
> Like
> Windows, desktop Linux pays attention to the hardware of the machine
> it's running on, so things like video and networking work as
> desired.
> I run Ubuntu Linux here because it does the best job I've seen in a
> Linux distro of figuring out what it's being installed on, setting
> itself up, and Just Working with minimal input required from the
> user.
> Just Working requires the appropriate drivers to be installed and
> loaded when the machine boots.  Different machines will have
> different
> hardware and require different drivers.
>
> > Running DOS on windows is like turning it into a parasite.
>
> So what?  And you aren't *running* DOS on Windows.  You are running
> DOS *emulation* in a virtual machine (which is essentially what
> things
> like vDOS are), which allows you to run DOS *applications* under
> Windows.  You don't *need* DOS itself in the mix.  (You could run
> DOS
> apps "native" on Win2K/XP, but *that* was emulation too.  Real DOS
> was
> nowhere to be found.)
>
> (I run an assortment of DOS apps on an Android tablet.  Android has
> a
> Linux kernel under the hood, and the tablet uses an ARM Cortex 7
> quad
> core CPU.  I run DOS apps via an Android port of DOSBox, with is a
> VM
> intended to let you play old DOS games on machines that aren't DOS
> PCs, but supports things that aren't games, too.  Look, Ma!  No DOS!
> :-) )
>
> > cheers
> > DS
> __
> Dennis
>
>
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http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] EtherDFS v0.8.1

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 21:11:25 -0400, Andy Stamp wrote:
> I set up a Linux VM with a FAT32 partition for the server and was
> playing with version 0.8.1 on my 486 and it was working great. Loaded
> Lotus 123 right off the network (and faster than I expected).

I'm glad it works for you!

> My question is: Does the server/protocol support multiple simultaneous
> connections?

Absolutely, yes.

> If so, should I try to avoid accessing the same files from both clients?

Definitely. While operating multiple clients simultaneously on one server
is no problem at all, writing to the *same* file at the same time from
two different clients is almost guaranteed to wreck things up.
Simultaneous reads, of course, are no trouble.

Mateusz



> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 5:06 AM, Mateusz Viste 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello group,
>>
>> Not that long ago I announced here a new software I have created, named
>> EtherDFS. EtherDFS is an 'installable filesystem' TSR for DOS. It maps
>> a drive from a remote computer (typically Linux-based) to a local drive
>> letter, using raw ethernet frames to communicate.
>>
>> Last weekend I released a new version of EtherDFS, the version 0.8.1.
>> If you're using EtherDFS, then upgrading to this latest version is
>> highly recommended, as it significantly improves the protocol's
>> reliability (especially important with buggy NICs that sometime send
>> more data than actually requested by the application - observed at
>> least on Xircom PE3 dongles, but might happen on other hardware as
>> well).
>>
>> Changelog since v0.6:
>>
>> [version 0.8.1]
>>  - EtherDFS frames are validated by a cksum (can be disabled with /n),
>>  - EDF5 frames announce their length to avoid troubles with Ethernet
>> padding,
>>  - arguments can be passed in any order,
>>  - /q and /u can be used together.
>>
>> [version 0.8]
>>  - improved self-detection to avoid loading EtherDFS twice,
>>  - added unloading support (/u),
>>  - fixed a FindFirst regression (fixes usage under 4DOS),
>>  - fixed SETATTR action when using a non-FreeDOS attrib command,
>>  - implemented the 'Seek From End' call,
>>  - minor memory optimizations,
>>  - makes sure the redirector API is available before installing,
>>  - support for multiple drive mappings.
>>
>> [version 0.7]
>>  - MS-DOS compat: flagging newly mapped drive so MS-DOS doesn't ignore
>>  it,
>>  - fixed FindNext behavior so it's compatible with ATTRIB from MS-DOS,
>>  - implemented the "Special Open" call (used by COPY in MSDOS 5.0 and
>> 6.x),
>>  - increased timeout retries from 3 to 5 (more reliable on lossy
>> networks),
>>  - fixed parsing of the MAC address provided on command-line,
>>  - minor speed optimizations.
>>
>> Project's website: http://etherdfs.sourceforge.net
>>
>> Mateusz
>>
>>
>> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Ulrich Hansen]

From: Ulrich Hansen 


> Am 24.04.2017 um 07:07 schrieb Dan Schmidt :
>
> Is this thread still about wireless for Dos?  If not, sorry for posting.
>
> If so, I bought a wireless to ethernet bridge - smaller than a deck of cards,
runs on usb power - works great for my Dos machine.  I tried a wifi card that
supposedly supported dos - never could get it working, threw it away in
disgust.

This sounds interesting. Is it something like this?
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00TQEX8BO/ref=psdc_300189_t2_B00HZWOQZ6
Thanks for the hint.
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Gregg Eshelman]

From: Gregg Eshelman 

--===2748568669217627302==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="=_Part_3497302_1237270095.1493073627563"
Content-Length: 1623

--=_Part_3497302_1237270095.1493073627563
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Any plan to share this find? :)


On Monday, April 24, 2017, 9:07:19 AM MDT, Dale E Sterner 
wrote:It is pure dos abandoned when corel went to windows.
Sounded like it came out of the trash can type.
It is somewhat unfinished - a few nasty bugs but nothing
to make it unusable. There was no documentation
with it. Just a corel factory made cd.
Its a pity they quit on it.

--=_Part_3497302_1237270095.1493073627563
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Any
plan to share this find? 
:)On Monday, April 24, 2017, 9:07:19 AM MDT, Dale E 
Sterner  wrote:It is pure 
dos abandoned when corel went to windows.Sounded like 
it came out of the trash can type.It is somewhat 
unfinished - a few nasty bugs but nothingto make it 
unusable. There was no documentation with it. Just a 
corel factory made cd.Its a pity they quit on 
it.
--=_Part_3497302_1237270095.1493073627563--


--===2748568669217627302==
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Disposition: inline

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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases (was: Corel dos...)

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 6:16 PM, Felix Miata  wrote:
> dmccunney composed on 2017-04-23 17:52 (UTC-0400):
>
>> Versions are frequently skipped when software is released.  Remember
>> Dale said this was *unreleased* software.  (I don't recall offhand
>> whether there was an actual Quattro 5.5 release.)
>
> QPro 5.5 was released by Novell. I still have its manuals, and still keep 5.6
> running 24/7 (in OS/2 in its eComStation incarnation).

Okay, thanks.  That's what I more or less remembered.

Corel acquired the software from Novell.  Novell under Ray Noorda was
on an acquisitions binge, and acquired Word Perfect, Quattro Pro and
other stuff.  They appeared to be trying to compete with Microsoft
across the board, but never really put the pieces together in a
coherent whole.  Noorda got pushed out by the board, and Novell
retreated from the applications market.
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

I run my pure DOS on a CF chip and move it from one
machine to another on a cf chip. Try doing that with windows.
Running DOS on windows is like turning it into a parasite.

cheers
DS



On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:29:06 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:06 AM, Dale E Sterner
>  wrote:
> > It is pure dos abandoned when corel went to windows.
> > Sounded like it came out of the trash can type.
> > It is somewhat unfinished - a few nasty bugs but nothing
> > to make it unusable. There was no documentation
> > with it. Just a corel factory made cd.
> > Its a pity they quit on it.
>
> Corel is a commercial software producer, making its living *selling*
> software.
>
> They dropped out of the DOS market because there no longer *was* a
> DOS
> market. Almost everyone had moved to Windows.
>
> That's not "pity", it's *survival*.
> __
> Dennis
>
>
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


Police Urge Americans to Carry This With Them at All Times
The Observer
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

thanks

On Mon, 24 Apr 2017 11:23:17 -0700 Ralf Quint 
writes:
> On 4/24/2017 11:03 AM, Dale E Sterner wrote:
> > What is the difference between Lubuntu & Ubuntu.
> > What difference does the L make.
> The windows manager used...
>
> Ubuntu, as in the main distro, is using Gnome 3 as the default
> window
> manager (after they finally abandoned that stupid Unity carp),
> Lubuntu
> is instead using the more lightweight LXDE windows manager, and just
> to
> preempt further questions, Xunbuntu is using Xfce, Kubuntu  KDE as
> their
> windows manager...
>
> Ralf
>
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>
>
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


Police Urge Americans to Carry This With Them at All Times
The Observer
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> I think there must have been a 5.5 otherwise you wouldn't
> have a 5.6.

As it happens, there was, as Felix Miata noted.   But versions *can*
be skipped by vendors.

> I only use the wordperfect off the disk - yet.
> Some lady on the web sells a dos wordperfect update
> to 6.2 and I also bought that - Corel autherized.

There are holdouts still running DOS software, but not under DOS.
There's a WordPerfect for DOS fan site with information on how to make
it work on Windows using vDOS.  There are similar folks doing the same
thing to continue running WordStar.  Noted SF author Robert Sawyer
maintains a WordStar page on his website with chapter and verse on
using vDOS to run WordStar under Windows.

The problem for both products was failure to keep up with the market.
Micropro took its eye off the WordStar ball and attempted to
diversify.  WordPerfect ate them for lunch.  Word Perfect waited too
long to develop a Windows version.  By the time they did, MS Word
owned the word processing market.

I know people who still use WordStar or WordPerfect, but also keep
Word around.  They are writers selling content, and what the editors
they sell to expect to see is a Word document.  They may compose in WP
or WS, but import to Word for submission draft.

> cheers
> DS
__
Dennis

> On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:52:57 -0400 dmccunney 
> writes:
>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Thomas Mueller 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > It seemed strange that a version of Quattro Pro following 5 would
>> be 5.6 as opposed to 5.1 or 5.5.
>>
>> Versions are frequently skipped when software is released.  Remember
>> Dale said this was *unreleased* software.  (I don't recall offhand
>> whether there was an actual Quattro 5.5 release.)
>>
>> > Now I migrate as much as possible to Gnumeric.
>>
>> What has your experience been?
>>
>> > In the days of Quattro Pro 5 for DOS, I never heard of wi-fi or
>> BSD checksums.
>>
>> Back then, Wifi didn't exist, and BSD required an AT&T source
>> license
>> to run, since it derived from AT&T code.  Checksums were around, but
>> rather simpler and easily spoofed.  Nobody cared about that because
>> no
>> one was *trying* to.
>>
>> > Tom
>> __
>> Dennis
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>>
>>
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>
>
> **
> >From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
> ***
>
> 
> Eat This Herb To Reverse Hearing Loss
> Navajo Hearing System
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/58fe15db7039a15db762dst01duc
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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Ralf Quint]

From: Ralf Quint 

On 4/24/2017 11:03 AM, Dale E Sterner wrote:
> What is the difference between Lubuntu & Ubuntu.
> What difference does the L make.
The windows manager used...

Ubuntu, as in the main distro, is using Gnome 3 as the default window
manager (after they finally abandoned that stupid Unity carp), Lubuntu
is instead using the more lightweight LXDE windows manager, and just to
preempt further questions, Xunbuntu is using Xfce, Kubuntu  KDE as their
windows manager...

Ralf

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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 11:47 AM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> I run my pure DOS on a CF chip and move it from one
> machine to another on a cf chip. Try doing that with windows.

You can't.  Windows will detect it's on a new machine, and complain.

But if you run Windows, that's not something you *want* to do, or have
*reason* to do.

You might be able to do something like that with Linux.  How well it
would work would depend on the machines you were moving between.  Like
Windows, desktop Linux pays attention to the hardware of the machine
it's running on, so things like video and networking work as desired.
I run Ubuntu Linux here because it does the best job I've seen in a
Linux distro of figuring out what it's being installed on, setting
itself up, and Just Working with minimal input required from the user.
Just Working requires the appropriate drivers to be installed and
loaded when the machine boots.  Different machines will have different
hardware and require different drivers.

> Running DOS on windows is like turning it into a parasite.

So what?  And you aren't *running* DOS on Windows.  You are running
DOS *emulation* in a virtual machine (which is essentially what things
like vDOS are), which allows you to run DOS *applications* under
Windows.  You don't *need* DOS itself in the mix.  (You could run DOS
apps "native" on Win2K/XP, but *that* was emulation too.  Real DOS was
nowhere to be found.)

(I run an assortment of DOS apps on an Android tablet.  Android has a
Linux kernel under the hood, and the tablet uses an ARM Cortex 7 quad
core CPU.  I run DOS apps via an Android port of DOSBox, with is a VM
intended to let you play old DOS games on machines that aren't DOS
PCs, but supports things that aren't games, too.  Look, Ma!  No DOS!
:-) )

> cheers
> DS
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

from dmccunney:

> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Thomas Mueller  wrote:

> > It seemed strange that a version of Quattro Pro following 5 would be 5.6 as
opposed to 5.1 or 5.5.

> Versions are frequently skipped when software is released.  Remember
> Dale said this was *unreleased* software.  (I don't recall offhand
> whether there was an actual Quattro 5.5 release.)

> > Now I migrate as much as possible to Gnumeric.

> What has your experience been?

> > In the days of Quattro Pro 5 for DOS, I never heard of wi-fi or BSD
checksums.

> Back then, Wifi didn't exist, and BSD required an AT&T source license
> to run, since it derived from AT&T code.  Checksums were around, but
> rather simpler and easily spoofed.  Nobody cared about that because no
> one was *trying* to.

> Tom

> Dennis

My experience with Gnumeric is favorable.  There are differences in syntax and
navigation with Quattro Pro for DOS.

Quattro Pro three-dimensional spreadsheets are practically impossible to
import, even Excel can't do that.

Gnumeric runs on Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD, but is not portable to Haiku.

Regarding BSD requiring AT&T source license, are you talking about FreeBSD,
NetBSD or BSDI?

I don't think FreeBSD and NetBSD required AT&T source license, even in their
early days.

I remember when FreeBSD floppy boot disks would hang "Probing for devices...",
and I couldn't get any further.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 2:03 PM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> For the most part dos moves well between machines.
> Did have trouble with cutemouse & jemmex. On
> some machines they hang up.

So even DOS can be sensitive to hardware differences.  :-p

> What is the difference between Lubuntu & Ubuntu.
> What difference does the L make.

The default GUI.

In Windows, the GUI is part of the OS, and you boot into the standard
Windows GUI.  (You *can* boot to a command line, by diddling the
registry to change Windows' idea of the default shell to CMD.EXE.  You
really don't *want* to.)

In Linux, the GUI is a layered product, running on top of the OS.  You
can boot a Linux system to a command line and not *use* a GUI, though
once again, you may not want to.

Ubuntu is a Linux distribution built on top of Debian Linux.  A major
difference between Linux distributions is what GUI they use as the
default.  There are *many* available GUIs for Linux.

The main Ubuntu distribution defaulted to a GUI developed by Ubuntu
parent company Canonical, Ltd, called Unity.  Unity was attempting to
be a "one size fits all" GUI that would run on desktop, laptop,
netbook, tablet, and smartphone.  It was optimized for systems where
the scarce resource was screen real estate, and you might access stuff
through a touch screen.  It was a good fit for a tablet, but fell down
on a large monitor. Ubuntu has recently halted development on Unity
and anointed Gnome as the standard GUI.

Ubuntu is available in other flavors as Kubuntu, Xubuntu, and Lubuntu.
Kubuntu installs the KDE desktop as the default.  Lubuntu installs the
Lxde desktop.  Xubuntu installs the XFCE desktop.

You are not limited to the default.  You can install others, and
select which you wish to use at the Login screen.  On the desktop, I
have Unity, Gnome Classic, Enlightenment, Lxde and XFCE installed, and
spend most time in Gnome.  On the old netbook, I use Lubuntu, with
Lxde, as it's a lightweight desktop intended for lower resource
machines.

(Back when, I ran a version of Red Hat Linux with a desktop designed
to look as much as possible like Win95 to ease transition for folks
coming from Windows.)
__
Dennis

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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[Dan Schmidt]

From: Dan Schmidt 

--===2885374890722544653==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113c05a850355e054de294d9

--001a113c05a850355e054de294d9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Is this thread still about wireless for Dos?  If not, sorry for posting.

If so, I bought a wireless to ethernet bridge - smaller than a deck of
cards, runs on usb power - works great for my Dos machine.  I tried a wifi
card that supposedly supported dos - never could get it working, threw it
away in disgust.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:

> On Ebay I purchased a cd with unreleased Corel dos
> software. There would have been a 5.6 version had it been
> released. Some woman got it from a boyfriend who
> worked for Corel and then sold it on Ebay for about $150.
> I was high bid.
>
> cheers
> DS
>
>
> On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 20:10:45 + "Thomas Mueller" 
> writes:
> > > I have Qpro 5.6 but haven't used it yet. Still using version 3
> > > The macros are powerful and a lot earier to use than
> > > Excel. Version 5.6 is said to have a solver built in
> > > like TK solver. One of these days I'll find out.
> >
> > > cheers
> > > DS
> >
> > Last Qpro version for DOS was 5.  Was there a 5.6?  DOS or Windows?
> >
> > Tom
> >
> >
> >
> -
> -
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
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> > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> >
>
>
> **
> >From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
> ***
>
> 
> Whatever Happened To Nancy Kerrigan?
> trend-chaser.com
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/58fcbbdf8c0f63bdf76f2st02duc
>
> 
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--001a113c05a850355e054de294d9
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is this thread still about wireless for Dos?-a If not, sorry for
posting. If so, I bought a wireless to ethernet bridge - smaller than a
deck of cards, runs on usb power - works great for my Dos machine.-a I tried a
wifi card that supposedly supported dos - never could get it working, threw it
away in disgust. On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 8:37 AM, Dale E Sterner sunbeam...@juno.com> wrote:On Ebay I purchased a cd with unreleased Corel dos
software. There would have been a 5.6 version had it been
released. Some woman got it from a boyfriend who
worked for Corel and then sold it on Ebay for about $150.
I was high bid.

cheers
DS


On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 20:10:45 + "Thomas Mueller" mueller6...@twc.com>
writes:
> > I have Qpro 5.6 but haven't used it yet.
Still using version 3
> > The macros are powerful and a lot earier to use than
> > Excel. Version 5.6 is said to have a solver built in
> > like TK solver. One of these days I'll find out.
>
> > cheers
> > DS
>
> Last Qpro version for DOS was 5.-a Was there a 5.6?-a DOS or Windows?
>
> Tom
>
>
>
-
-
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052"; rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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target="_blank">trend-chaser.com
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rel="noreferrer" 
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Re: [Freedos-user] *buntus (was: Corel dos eba...)

[Felix Miata]

From: Felix Miata 

Dale E Sterner composed on 2017-04-24 14:03 (UTC-0400):

> What is the difference between Lubuntu & Ubuntu.
> What difference does the L make.

Kubuntu - KDE http://distrowatch.com/kubuntu
Lubuntu - LXDE http://distrowatch.com/lubuntu
Ubuntu - Unity/Gnome http://distrowatch.com/ubuntu
Xubuntu - XFCE http://distrowatch.com/xubuntu
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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

The win 7 was a 32 bit copy purchased on Amazon.
The software was a dvd converter to convert dvds to mp4.
It didn't work on XP so I wanted to try it on win 7; didn't work
there either. The 1st activation was slow painful and
successful. Win 7 gave warning about making changes.
I followed all instructions to the letter.
The message came from win 7. If you are connected
to wifi I think it does the reactivation automatically and
quietly.


cheers
DS


On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 16:58:06 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Dale E Sterner 
> wrote:
>
> > I installed win 7 on a laptop to see what it could do but not to
> use it.
>
> Where did you get the copy of Win7 you installed?
>
> > The laptop doesn't have an internet connection so had to use the
> > phone method.to  Install it.
>
> Are you certain that worked correctly?
>
> > I installed software that I bought to see what it  would do on win
> 7.
>
> What software was this?
>
> > A lot of of message boxes came up giving me 24 hours to reactive
> > or it would shut down forever.
>
> Did those messages come from Win7 or the software you installed?
>
> > I left the test software on being affraid that if I removed it, it
> would
> > do it again. Win 7 is now on my junk software list.
>
> I'm afraid my take from here is pilot error.  When you don't
> actually
> know what you're doing, problems arise.
>
> You got DOS and DOS apps in the old days, got them to where you
> wanted, and stopped.  If what you have does what you need, splendid.
> If it doesn't, you are looking at stepping beyond DOS.  That will
> mean
> either a flavor of Windows or a flavor of Linux.  Either way,
> there's
> a learning curve you're stuck with, and you need to learn more about
> and better understand what your options are.
>
> Proceeding without knowledge is a good way to shoot yourself in
> *both* feet.
>
> > cheers
> > DS
> __
> Dennis
>
>
-
-
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases (was: Corel dos...)

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

Someone else who likes Qpro - ain't it great.


cheers
DS


On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 18:16:10 -0400 Felix Miata 
writes:
> dmccunney composed on 2017-04-23 17:52 (UTC-0400):
>
> > Versions are frequently skipped when software is released.
> Remember
> > Dale said this was *unreleased* software.  (I don't recall offhand
> > whether there was an actual Quattro 5.5 release.)
>
> QPro 5.5 was released by Novell. I still have its manuals, and still
> keep 5.6
> running 24/7 (in OS/2 in its eComStation incarnation).
> --
> "The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
> words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)
>
>  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!
>
> Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
>
>
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

It is pure dos abandoned when corel went to windows.
Sounded like it came out of the trash can type.
It is somewhat unfinished - a few nasty bugs but nothing
to make it unusable. There was no documentation
with it. Just a corel factory made cd.
Its a pity they quit on it.




On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 17:03:26 +0200 Eric Auer  writes:
>
> Hi Dale,
>
> is this actually a version of DOS? Or just an
> unreleased intermediate version of wordperfect?
> And of course, what is included? Which license?
>
> Cheers, Eric
>
> ps: you forgot to update the subject in your
> freedos-user mail, it still says "wifi on dos"
>
>
>
>
-
-
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] Quattro Pro releases (was: Corel dos...)

[Felix Miata]

From: Felix Miata 

dmccunney composed on 2017-04-23 17:52 (UTC-0400):

> Versions are frequently skipped when software is released.  Remember
> Dale said this was *unreleased* software.  (I don't recall offhand
> whether there was an actual Quattro 5.5 release.)

QPro 5.5 was released by Novell. I still have its manuals, and still keep 5.6
running 24/7 (in OS/2 in its eComStation incarnation).
--
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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 6:15 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:58 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
>>
>>> I installed win 7 on a laptop to see what it could do but not to use it.
>>> I installed software that I bought to see what it  would do on win 7.
>>> A lot of of message boxes came up giving me 24 hours to reactive
>>> or it would shut down forever.
>>
>> Did those messages come from Win7 or the software you installed?
>
> Can't you use a RC (release candidate) for a few months? Or is that
> not supported any longer?

If what you *have* is a Release Candidate, maybe.  (I have no idea if
it is still supported.)

>>> I left the test software on being affraid that if I removed it, it would
>>> do it again. Win 7 is now on my junk software list.
>
> In fairness, Win7 doesn't have a lot of life left, so it's not a good
> long-term solution. (Vista very recently died, so no more updates or
> fixes.)

Win7 is no longer under active development. It *will* get Extended
Support (IE, security updates) till 2020, but MS would really like you
to move to Win10.

The bigger longer term problem is that each new release of Windows
adds new things to the Windows API, and as time passes, software will
expect that new stuff and fail to run on systems that don't have it.
I have an ancient notebook running Win2K Pro that can't run some stuff
I use elsewhere because it requires XP minimum.  There are already
things that require Win7 minimum and won't run on my XP Home netbook.

There are reasons I prefer to stay current on Windows...

>> You got DOS and DOS apps in the old days, got them to where you
>> wanted, and stopped.  If what you have does what you need, splendid.
>> If it doesn't, you are looking at stepping beyond DOS.  That will mean
>> either a flavor of Windows or a flavor of Linux.  Either way, there's
>> a learning curve you're stuck with, and you need to learn more about
>> and better understand what your options are.
>
> I can't help but wonder if a simple Chromebook (from Best Buy, etc.)
> would fit the bill for him (or me or others). But without QEMU or
> similar by default, it's probably less useful. Google probably thinks
> emulation would be overkill for the "light" tasks that Chromebooks
> support. You can "probably" install a full Ubuntu (instead of default
> ChromeOS), but I'm not sure of the potential tradeoffs there (battery
> life?).

That will depend on your needs.  Chromebooks explicitly assume you
have a fast internet connection and will store your data in the cloud.
If you have the first and are willing to do the latter, a Chromebook
can be a good fit.  If the answer is no to either of those questions,
think again.

And while there are options to install Ubuntu, you still face issues
of local storage capacity.  Battery like my not be your scarce
resource.

If I were to get a Chromebook, I wouldn't bother.  It's a platform to
connect to the Internet through broadband and do stuff via the Chrome
browser.  Stuff that can't be handled that way is Something Else's
Job.

(I can theoretically install Ubuntu on my Android tablet.  I have no
actual need to do so.  Android and the apps I have installed do what I
require.  Ubuntu won't add anything I need badly enough to justify the
effort of moving to it.)

> A lot of issues with old DOS software have to do with printing, as one
> guy on BTTR recently mentioned needing. Not sure what is perfectly
> ideal here (VDosPlus??). BTW, QEMU 2.9.0 was just released today (but
> I'm unaware of any relevant changes for us).

I have vDOSPlus here.  It's a possible solution for most print needs,
since you can configure what happens when you try to print from a DOS
app.  I never actually do, but I would redirect to a "printer" under
Windows that creates a PDF of what is sent to it, and print that using
standard Windows methods.

If you can *run* your DOS app in a virtual machine (which is
essentially what vDOS and predecessor DOSBox are), you can generally
find a way to actually print from the host OS. I very seldom need to
actually print *anything*, and largely don't care.

(I have several DOS apps and games running on my Android tablet
courtesy of an Android port of DOSBox.  One candidate for running that
way was Eric Meyer's DOS WordStar clone, VDE.  The problem was that
extant Android ports of DOSBox weren't passing control-key combos
through to the host OS, so WordStar  assignments simply
weren't recognized.  I found a port that does let them through and VDE
runs fine.)

> Another long shot would be DOS emulation in the browser via
> Javascript. Normally I would shun that for being too buggy or slow,
> but there are TONS of Javascript emulators. It's shocking actually,
> and some are amazingly good (and network-aware), e.g. OpenRISC. Of
> course, DOS is not high priority, and copy.sh's V86 is still too
> buggy, but we can dream, can't we?   ;-)

Hardware is increasingly smaller, fast

Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Eric Auer]

From: Eric Auer 


Hi Dale,

is this actually a version of DOS? Or just an
unreleased intermediate version of wordperfect?
And of course, what is included? Which license?

Cheers, Eric

ps: you forgot to update the subject in your
freedos-user mail, it still says "wifi on dos"



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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

On Ebay I purchased a cd with unreleased Corel dos
software. There would have been a 5.6 version had it been
released. Some woman got it from a boyfriend who
worked for Corel and then sold it on Ebay for about $150.
I was high bid.

cheers
DS


On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 20:10:45 + "Thomas Mueller" 
writes:
> > I have Qpro 5.6 but haven't used it yet. Still using version 3
> > The macros are powerful and a lot earier to use than
> > Excel. Version 5.6 is said to have a solver built in
> > like TK solver. One of these days I'll find out.
>
> > cheers
> > DS
>
> Last Qpro version for DOS was 5.  Was there a 5.6?  DOS or Windows?
>
> Tom
>
>
>
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

I installed win 7 on a laptop to see what it could do but not to
use it. The laptop doesn't have an internet connection so had
to use the phone method.to  Install it. I installed software that I
bought to
see what it  would do on win 7. Alot of of message boxes came
up giving me 24 hours to reactive or it would shut down forever.
I left the test software on being affraid that if I removed it, it would
do it again. Win 7 is now on my junk software list.



cheers
DS



On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 17:06:59 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Dale E Sterner 
> wrote:
> > With windows if your PC dies and you want to move
> > to a dupicate and keep running - your out of luck.
>
> Not really.  Been there, done that.
>
> On my old, built-from components PC, I moved XP several times.  I
> made
> changes to the underlying system and Windows wanted to
> reauthenticate.
>
> The time before last, online authentication failed, and I wound up
> speaking to a Microsoft rep. His concern was solely that I wasn't
> trying to run the *same* copy of Windows on more than one machine at
> a
> time.  "Nope.  Same physical machine.  I had a hardware failure and
> had to get a new motherboard."  He got me authenticated.
>
> The next time I had to do so, online authentication worked with no
> issues - MS had made changes to the online authentication site, and
> whatever made it fail before no longer bit.
>
> > Windows ability to detect small changes is amazing -
> > it just wants to stop.
>
> Windows has an intimate relationship with the hardware.  It *is* an
> OS.  If you *make* hardware changes, it will notice.  Whether it
> wants
> to stop will depend on the hardware you changed.  Video cards, hard
> drives, and RAM shouldn't cause a problem.  Motherboard changes
> will.
> As far as Windows is concerned, that's a new machine.
>
> > Win 7 is such a pain to deal with I think even DOS could beat it.
>
> I've run Win7, and can't agree.  I was quite happy with Win7.  These
> days, I run Win10, and I'm generally pleased with it.  (I run the
> Pro
> version in both cases.)
>
> It follows the "every *other* release of Windows is decent" pattern.
> I avoided Vista like the plague, but was happy with Win7.  I avoided
> 8.1 but am generally pleased with Win10.
>
> Of course, I have the hardware to properly support it, and know what
> I'm doing.
>
> The current desktop is a replacement for a failed older one.  The
> older one came with Win7, and I upgraded to Win10.  I'd done that on
> three laptops with no issues.  The desktop was "new and different
> Win10 BSODs - collect the whole set!", and I was.  The new machine
> is
> rock solid and stable, but it's also faster and more powerful
> hardware.  My conclusion was that the older machine could run Win7
> but
> wasn't really up to Win10, even though it would install without
> issues.  (One annoying quirk was that it was a quad-core machine but
> Win10 only saw two cores.  The Xeon CPU is used wasn't on the
> "supported by Win10 list Intel maintains.  The i5-2400 in the new
> box
> is, and Win10 sees and uses all four cores.)
>
> Something like that happened in the Win Vista days.  MS wanted
> everyone on Vista, but some of the hardware in the pipeline wasn't
> really up to running it.  (Mostly, inadequate video.)  MS created a
> new level of certification - Vista Capable - so hardware vendors
> could
> put it on the box.  Jim Allchin, who was SVP in charge of Windows
> development at the time, was livid.  He felt, correctly, that the
> hardware would not provide a good experience for users and that MS
> would get yet another black eye in the marketplace.  MS really
> should
> have waited 6 months for a new generation of hardware that would
> properly support Vista, but wanted to make XP go away.
>
> > Every time I install new software it wants to be
> > reauthenticated.
>
> Win7?  That never happened here.  Are you sure it got properly
> authenticated in the first place?
>
> What new software triggers a request for reauthentication?
> __
> Dennis
> https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519
>
>
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>


**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 5:51 PM, Gregg Eshelman  wrote:

> Microsoft has done such things deliberately. I had a Compaq server with dual
> slot Xeon CPUs. XP (with a 1-2 CPU license) could be installed but no matter
> what, was only going to be allowed to use ONE CPU. Manually forcing the
> multi CPU HAL to install during setup (or after) would make it crash.
> Microsoft apparently told Compaq to fix their server BIOSes so that only
> Server versions of Windows would be allowed to access the full hardware
> capabilities. So I put 2000 Server on it and got rid of it.

That's not a surprise.  Desktop systems with dual CPUs were uncommon.
The assumption was that a dual-CPU machine was a server, and would
require a server version of Windows.

Finding a dual-CPU system in current days of multiple cores pretty
much requires server hardware.  I dealt professionally with Dell 1u
rack mount servers.  They came with dual CPUs, we installed 32GB RAM
(the max it would take), and spun up VMs under VMWare.  (Mostly
CentOS, but a bit of Windows in the mix.)

With multiple cores per CPU, the *need* to have more than one CPU drops.

> One thing I've been liking about 10 is that just about any Core 2 Duo or
> dual core AMD AM2 and later can run it pretty well, even with only 2 gig
> RAM. A socket 939 AMD, even dual core? Not so much. 10 is the first release
> of Windows to have lower minimum hardware requirements than its predecessor.
> Just got done putting it on a 2.4Ghz Thinkpad T61 with 4gig (and a BIOS
> modded to remove hardware whitelist and de-hobble SATA from being limited to
> version 1 speed), which I'd seriously be thinking about keeping if it had
> the 1920x1200 instead of 1680x1050 display.

I'd be reluctant to try to run Win10 in 2GB, though it's nice you can.
6GB RAM seems to be the sweet spot.  The current desktop has 8GB, but
can be expanded to 32GB by swapping in higher capacity RAM sticks.

> I doubt any previous version of Windows would run well, if at all, on
> hardware originally released 8~9 years prior.

Depends on the Windows flavor.  I have an ancient notebook - a Fujitsu
p2110 from 2001.  It was a pass along from a friend who had upgraded,
but didn't want to just throw it out.

It came to me with Windows XP SP2, and took 8 minutes to just *boot*,
and longer to do anything.

No surprise.  The machine had a 787mhz Transmeta Crusoe CPU (an early
attempt at a power saving design), an IDE4 HD, and a whopping 256 *MB*
of RAM, of which the CPU grabbed 16MB off the top for code morphing.
XP wanted 512MB, minimum, to think about running.

I swapped in a larger HD, repartitioned, reformatted, and installed
Win2K SP4, Ubuntu Linux, Puppy7 Linux, and FreeDOS, multi-booting via
grub2.  Win2K actually ran on the machine more or less acceptably,
especially after I stripped out everything loaded in startup that
*could* be dropped, and turned off the Windows Update service (saving
10MB RAM) because the machine wouldn't *get* updates.

Ubuntu was installed from Minimal CD to get a working CLI system, and
then pick-and-choose via apt-get.  Lxde provided a lightweight GUI.
Large apps were problematic, but that was disk I/O issues caused by
IDE4.  I didn't even try to run Firefox.  Puppy was intended for low
end hardware and ran well, but with the same caveats about big apps.
FreeDOS flew. :-)

It was mostly an exercise to see what performance I could wring out of
ancient hardware *without* throwing money at it.  Actual work happened
elsewhere.  It hasn't even been turned on in months.

> Need USB 3 and/or eSATA? Pop in an ExpressCard.

That's a future upgrade here.  The current machine is USB2, but
there's a four port USB3 card from about $25 that ill plug into the
mini PCI-e slot. Little I currently do really needs USB3, but it's an
easy add down the road.

> Put Classic Shell on, turn off all the stuff that phones home, set the
> window titlebars to a color instead of white (which Firefox ignores) and
> it's good to go.

I run Classic Shell here, and turned off the telemetry as well.

> If you've ever done anything with Windows 1.0 you should notice some
> similarities between it and the "Modern" UI. They both have non-overlapping
> tiles with active content, and there's this black bar across the bottom.
> Square corners everywhere (excepting the round ended buttons Apple sued MS
> over, square cornered buttons were made to satisfy Apple). Flat, saturated
> colors with a heavy emphasis on white, magenta, cyan and black. "3D"
> effects? Not there, just like Windows was through 3.0.
>
> Someone at MS has a bad case of nostalgia for Windows 1.0 running on a CGA
> monitor.

  I avoided the Metro UI, reasons why.

MS had the same dream that Ubuntu Linux had with their Unity desktop -
the same UI on any device the user ran.  But a UI suited for a tablet
where screen real estate is the scarce resource falls down in a big
monitor.  Win10 brought back the Start Menu, but fixed what wasn't
broken and moved 

Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

> I have Qpro 5.6 but haven't used it yet. Still using version 3
> The macros are powerful and a lot earier to use than
> Excel. Version 5.6 is said to have a solver built in
> like TK solver. One of these days I'll find out.

> cheers
> DS

Last Qpro version for DOS was 5.  Was there a 5.6?  DOS or Windows?

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Corel dos ebay thing

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

from Dale Sterner:

> On Ebay I purchased a cd with unreleased Corel dos
> software. There would have been a 5.6 version had it been
> released. Some woman got it from a boyfriend who
> worked for Corel and then sold it on Ebay for about $150.
> I was high bid.

Eric Auer:

Hi Dale,

> is this actually a version of DOS? Or just an
> unreleased intermediate version of wordperfect?
> And of course, what is included? Which license?

> Cheers, Eric

> ps: you forgot to update the subject in your
> freedos-user mail, it still says "wifi on dos"

It seemed strange that a version of Quattro Pro following 5 would be 5.6 as
opposed to 5.1 or 5.5.

Now I migrate as much as possible to Gnumeric.

In the days of Quattro Pro 5 for DOS, I never heard of wi-fi or BSD checksums.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

The packet driver link for dos come up FORBIDDEN.

cheers
DS


On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 21:49:46 +0200 Ulrich Hansen 
writes:
> Several years ago I wrote everything I could find out about DOS and
> Wifi here:
>
> http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/WiFi
>
> If anybody finds out more about it, please give some feedback...
>
>
> > On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:07:35 -0400 dmccunney
> 
> > writes:
> >> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Dale E Sterner
> >>  wrote:
> >>> I see that someone on Ebay is selling an HP mini
> >>> with a FREEDOS os installed. All the HP minis that
> >>> I've seen have wifi & bluetooth built in. That would
> >>> mean an 802.11 client to do it. The ad doesn't
> >>> mention wifi or bluetooth but every mini that I've seen
> >>> has it.
> >>
> >> The machine may have the *hardware*.  Whether the hardware will
> be
> >> *usable* will depend on software.
> >>
> >> MSDOS was written back before Wifi and Bluetooth *existed*.
> FreeDOS
> >> tries to be compatible with MSDOS, which means "support for what
> >> existed when MSDOS was current."
> >>
> >> I would *not* expect Wifi or Bluetooth to be usable on the
> machine
> >> in
> >> FreeDOS, because the drivers don't exist.  If you want to use
> Wifi
> >> or
> >> Bluetooth on that hardware, you'll need to install another OS
> that
> >> supports them.  (Depending on exactly which HP mini model it is,
> >> there
> >> might be a flavor of Linux that can do it.)
> >> __
> >> Dennis
> >>
> >>
> >
>
-
> > -
> >> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> >> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> >> ___
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> >> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
> >>
> >
> >
> > **
> >> From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
> > http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
> > ***
> >
> > 
> > The Easiest Way To Shed Deep Fat?
> > 3 Harmful Foods
> >
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/58f7bb5e84cae3b5e7b11st02duc
> >
> >
>
-
-
> > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > ___
> > Freedos-user mailing list
> > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user


**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


Why Your City Doctors No Longer Prescribe Metformin
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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> With windows if your PC dies and you want to move
> to a dupicate and keep running - your out of luck.

Not really.  Been there, done that.

On my old, built-from components PC, I moved XP several times.  I made
changes to the underlying system and Windows wanted to reauthenticate.

The time before last, online authentication failed, and I wound up
speaking to a Microsoft rep. His concern was solely that I wasn't
trying to run the *same* copy of Windows on more than one machine at a
time.  "Nope.  Same physical machine.  I had a hardware failure and
had to get a new motherboard."  He got me authenticated.

The next time I had to do so, online authentication worked with no
issues - MS had made changes to the online authentication site, and
whatever made it fail before no longer bit.

> Windows ability to detect small changes is amazing -
> it just wants to stop.

Windows has an intimate relationship with the hardware.  It *is* an
OS.  If you *make* hardware changes, it will notice.  Whether it wants
to stop will depend on the hardware you changed.  Video cards, hard
drives, and RAM shouldn't cause a problem.  Motherboard changes will.
As far as Windows is concerned, that's a new machine.

> Win 7 is such a pain to deal with I think even DOS could beat it.

I've run Win7, and can't agree.  I was quite happy with Win7.  These
days, I run Win10, and I'm generally pleased with it.  (I run the Pro
version in both cases.)

It follows the "every *other* release of Windows is decent" pattern.
I avoided Vista like the plague, but was happy with Win7.  I avoided
8.1 but am generally pleased with Win10.

Of course, I have the hardware to properly support it, and know what I'm doing.

The current desktop is a replacement for a failed older one.  The
older one came with Win7, and I upgraded to Win10.  I'd done that on
three laptops with no issues.  The desktop was "new and different
Win10 BSODs - collect the whole set!", and I was.  The new machine is
rock solid and stable, but it's also faster and more powerful
hardware.  My conclusion was that the older machine could run Win7 but
wasn't really up to Win10, even though it would install without
issues.  (One annoying quirk was that it was a quad-core machine but
Win10 only saw two cores.  The Xeon CPU is used wasn't on the
"supported by Win10 list Intel maintains.  The i5-2400 in the new box
is, and Win10 sees and uses all four cores.)

Something like that happened in the Win Vista days.  MS wanted
everyone on Vista, but some of the hardware in the pipeline wasn't
really up to running it.  (Mostly, inadequate video.)  MS created a
new level of certification - Vista Capable - so hardware vendors could
put it on the box.  Jim Allchin, who was SVP in charge of Windows
development at the time, was livid.  He felt, correctly, that the
hardware would not provide a good experience for users and that MS
would get yet another black eye in the marketplace.  MS really should
have waited 6 months for a new generation of hardware that would
properly support Vista, but wanted to make XP go away.

> Every time I install new software it wants to be
> reauthenticated.

Win7?  That never happened here.  Are you sure it got properly
authenticated in the first place?

What new software triggers a request for reauthentication?
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

I have Qpro 5.6 but haven't used it yet. Still using version 3
The macros are powerful and a lot earier to use than
Excel. Version 5.6 is said to have a solver built in
like TK solver. One of these days I'll find out.

cheers
DS




On Sat, 22 Apr 2017 02:35:08 + "Thomas Mueller" 
writes:
> > I find that your MS dos 7.1 has been doing a little better
> > than FREEDOS. Jemmex sometimes hangs up.
> > Corel made great DOS software. I use their Qpro
> > to do my taxes. I fill in the blanks and it calclates my tax.
>
> > cheers
> > DS
>
> I too used Borland Quattro Pro for DOS, through v5, to calculate
> income taxes.
>
> That was the last DOS version.  I don't think Corel did anything
> with Quattro Pro for DOS, but continued Quattro Pro for Windows for
> some time.
>
> I was able to run Quattro Pro 5 for DOS in DOSBox but felt better
> with straight DOS.
>
> I used OS/2 Warp 3 and 4 DOS session, DR-DOS 7.03 and later FreeDOS.
>
> Tom
>
>
>
-
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


1 Simple Trick Removes Eye Bags & Lip Lines in Seconds
Fit Mom Daily
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/58fb65f34a85065f308cdst01duc

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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Thomas Mueller]

From: "Thomas Mueller" 

> I find that your MS dos 7.1 has been doing a little better
> than FREEDOS. Jemmex sometimes hangs up.
> Corel made great DOS software. I use their Qpro
> to do my taxes. I fill in the blanks and it calclates my tax.

> cheers
> DS

I too used Borland Quattro Pro for DOS, through v5, to calculate income taxes.

That was the last DOS version.  I don't think Corel did anything with Quattro
Pro for DOS, but continued Quattro Pro for Windows for some time.

I was able to run Quattro Pro 5 for DOS in DOSBox but felt better with straight
DOS.

I used OS/2 Warp 3 and 4 DOS session, DR-DOS 7.03 and later FreeDOS.

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[Karen Lewellen]

From: Karen Lewellen 

Granted I am not commenting on the exact post, too much  to locate it
exactly.
still, speaking only for myself, I have continued to build upon and find
dos solutions  without having to change operating systems for almost 30
years now.  My choice  to think first about solutions instead of thinking I
could not advance has yet to fail me.
I am surprised on a list dedicated to a Dos program  at how often I read
people suggest going to use something else laughs.
I cannot speak to other  people's computing, but is not that why we
call them personal computers in the first place?
Kare


On Thu, 20 Apr 2017, Rugxulo wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:58 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
>>
>>> I installed win 7 on a laptop to see what it could do but not to use it.
>>> I installed software that I bought to see what it  would do on win 7.
>>> A lot of of message boxes came up giving me 24 hours to reactive
>>> or it would shut down forever.
>>
>> Did those messages come from Win7 or the software you installed?
>
> Can't you use a RC (release candidate) for a few months? Or is that
> not supported any longer?
>
>>> I left the test software on being affraid that if I removed it, it would
>>> do it again. Win 7 is now on my junk software list.
>
> In fairness, Win7 doesn't have a lot of life left, so it's not a good
> long-term solution. (Vista very recently died, so no more updates or
> fixes.)
>
>> You got DOS and DOS apps in the old days, got them to where you
>> wanted, and stopped.  If what you have does what you need, splendid.
>> If it doesn't, you are looking at stepping beyond DOS.  That will mean
>> either a flavor of Windows or a flavor of Linux.  Either way, there's
>> a learning curve you're stuck with, and you need to learn more about
>> and better understand what your options are.
>
> I can't help but wonder if a simple Chromebook (from Best Buy, etc.)
> would fit the bill for him (or me or others). But without QEMU or
> similar by default, it's probably less useful. Google probably thinks
> emulation would be overkill for the "light" tasks that Chromebooks
> support. You can "probably" install a full Ubuntu (instead of default
> ChromeOS), but I'm not sure of the potential tradeoffs there (battery
> life?).
>
> A lot of issues with old DOS software have to do with printing, as one
> guy on BTTR recently mentioned needing. Not sure what is perfectly
> ideal here (VDosPlus??). BTW, QEMU 2.9.0 was just released today (but
> I'm unaware of any relevant changes for us).
>
> Another long shot would be DOS emulation in the browser via
> Javascript. Normally I would shun that for being too buggy or slow,
> but there are TONS of Javascript emulators. It's shocking actually,
> and some are amazingly good (and network-aware), e.g. OpenRISC. Of
> course, DOS is not high priority, and copy.sh's V86 is still too
> buggy, but we can dream, can't we?   ;-)
>
>> Proceeding without knowledge is a good way to shoot yourself in *both* feet.
>
> Shooting your foot off? Yes, C++17 was finalized recently.   :-))
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[Gregg Eshelman]

From: Gregg Eshelman 

--===9114683600329317498==
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Microsoft has done such things deliberately. I had a Compaq server with dual
slot Xeon CPUs. XP (with a 1-2 CPU license) could be installed but no matter
what, was only going to be allowed to use ONE CPU. Manually forcing the multi
CPU HAL to install during setup (or after) would make it crash.
Microsoft apparently told Compaq to fix their server BIOSes so that only Server
versions of Windows would be allowed to access the full hardware capabilities.
So I put 2000 Server on it and got rid of it.
One thing I've been liking about 10 is that just about any Core 2 Duo or dual
core AMD AM2 and later can run it pretty well, even with only 2 gig RAM. A
socket 939 AMD, even dual core? Not so much. 10 is the first release of Windows
to have lower minimum hardware requirements than its predecessor. Just got done
putting it on a 2.4Ghz Thinkpad T61 with 4gig (and a BIOS modded to remove
hardware whitelist and de-hobble SATA from being limited to version 1 speed),
which I'd seriously be thinking about keeping if it had the 1920x1200 instead
of 1680x1050 display. Need USB 3 and/or eSATA? Pop in an ExpressCard.

I doubt any previous version of Windows would run well, if at all, on hardware
originally released 8~9 years prior.

Put Classic Shell on, turn off all the stuff that phones home, set the window
titlebars to a color instead of white (which Firefox ignores) and it's good to
go.
If you've ever done anything with Windows 1.0 you should notice some
similarities between it and the "Modern" UI. They both have non-overlapping
tiles with active content, and there's this black bar across the bottom. Square
corners everywhere (excepting the round ended buttons Apple sued MS over,
square cornered buttons were made to satisfy Apple). Flat, saturated colors
with a heavy emphasis on white, magenta, cyan and black. "3D" effects? Not
there, just like Windows was through 3.0.

Someone at MS has a bad case of nostalgia for Windows 1.0 running on a CGA
monitor.

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017, 3:09:07 PM MDT, dmccunney
 wrote:On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 4:17 PM, Dale E
Sterner  wrote:
> With windows if your PC dies and you want to move
> to a dupicate and keep running - your out of luck.

(One annoying quirk was that it was a quad-core machine but
Win10 only saw two cores.-a The Xeon CPU is used wasn't on the
"supported by Win10 list Intel maintains.-a The i5-2400 in the new box
is, and Win10 sees and uses all four cores.)

Something like that happened in the Win Vista days.-a MS wanted
everyone on Vista, but some of the hardware in the pipeline wasn't
really up to running it.-a (Mostly, inadequate video.)-a MS created a
new level of certification - Vista Capable - so hardware vendors could
put it on the box.-a Jim Allchin, who was SVP in charge of Windows
development at the time, was livid.-a He felt, correctly, that the
hardware would not provide a good experience for users and that MS
would get yet another black eye in the marketplace.-a MS really should
have waited 6 months for a new generation of hardware that would
properly support Vista, but wanted to make XP go away.
--=_Part_4041716_965213120.1492638692923
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Microsoft has done such things
deliberately. I had a Compaq server with dual slot Xeon CPUs. XP (with a 1-2
CPU license) could be installed but no matter what, was only going to be
allowed to use ONE CPU. Manually forcing the multi CPU HAL to install during
setup (or after) would make it crash.Microsoft apparently
told Compaq to fix their server BIOSes so that only Server versions of Windows
would be allowed to access the full hardware capabilities. So I put 2000 Server
on it and got rid of it.One thing I've been liking
about 10 is that just about any Core 2 Duo or dual core AMD AM2 and later can
run it pretty well, even with only 2 gig RAM. A socket 939 AMD, even dual core?
Not so much. 10 is the first release of Windows to have lower minimum hardware
requirements than its predecessor. Just got done putting it on a 2.4Ghz
Thinkpad T61 with 4gig (and a BIOS modded to remove hardware whitelist and
de-hobble SATA from being limited to version 1 speed), which I'd seriously be
thinking about keeping if it had the 1920x1200 instead of 1680x1050 display.
Need USB 3 and/or eSATA? Pop in an ExpressCard.I
doubt any previous version of Windows would run well, if at all, on hardware
originally released 8~9 years prior.Put Classic
Shell on, turn off all the stuff that phones home, set the window titlebars to
a color instead of white (which Firefox ignores) and it's good to
go.If you've ever done anything with Windows 1.0 you
should notice some 

Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017 04:39:35 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
> It worked fine (redirecting) for me yesterday! I can't imagine why it
> wouldn't work for you.
>
> Oh, before I forget, are you perhaps invoking NDISASM via some .BAT?
> Of course a .BAT doesn't really redirect (under FreeCOM) without kludge,
> e.g. "%COMSPEC% /c".

Ha, yes - you nailed it, Rugxulo. Indeed I was calling ndisasm from
within a sneaky ndisasm.bat file (auto-generated by FDNPKG inside my
PATH). As said before, I didn't really investigate the problem (for a
reason that should be obvious by now) - saw it doesn't work out of the
box, went to the "-l" nasm listing, done. But thanks to you the reason is
clear now. It's at least the second time this "FDNPKG generates BAT
files" thing bites me. I should definitively address this problem
eventually. I have to say however that I prefer the "-l" listing anyway,
because it preserves the comments (even though it lies a little bit
sometimes on the JZ thing).

> Maybe you should use Lazy Assembler (LZASM)?!

Didn't know that one (too lazy to google it out), but it does sound
extremely well suited to me!

cheers,
Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] Brand NEW IBM PC AT + Model M! Unboxing & Setup [LGR

[Corbin Davenport]

From: Corbin Davenport 

--===9146539503790060125==
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--001a11472176d84f77054d0669b7
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I saw this video a few days ago, the part when he opened an untouched Model
M keyboard was almost better than the PC unboxing.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:16 AM Rugxulo  wrote:

> Before I totally forget ... there was this awesome video on YouTube by
> LazyGameReviews (about two weeks ago):
>
> "Brand NEW IBM PC AT + Model M! Unboxing & Setup [LGR]"
>
> https://youtu.be/nLy_jEbuY-U
>
> IBM PC AT 5170 (circa 1988), 286 (8 Mhz) w/ 512 kb RAM, EGA, 30 MB
> HDD, 1.2 MB floppy drive, PC-DOS 3.30
>
> P.S. Since I love the irony, let me mention that he has more
> subscribers on YouTube than this machine has bytes of RAM. (Yes, he's
> that good. -- Duke Nukem)
>
>
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--001a11472176d84f77054d0669b7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
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I saw this video a few days ago, the part when he opened an
untouched Model M keyboard was almost better than the PC unboxing.
On Tue, Apr 11, 2017, 3:16 AM
Rugxulo rugx...@gmail.com>
wrote:Before I totally forget ...
there was this awesome video on YouTube by
LazyGameReviews (about two weeks ago):

"Brand NEW IBM PC AT + Model M! Unboxing & Setup [LGR]"

https://youtu.be/nLy_jEbuY-U"; rel="noreferrer" class="gmail_msg"
target="_blank">https://youtu.be/nLy_jEbuY-U

IBM PC AT 5170 (circa 1988), 286 (8 Mhz) w/ 512 kb RAM, EGA, 30 MB
HDD, 1.2 MB floppy drive, PC-DOS 3.30

P.S. Since I love the irony, let me mention that he has more
subscribers on YouTube than this machine has bytes of RAM. (Yes, he's
that good. -- Duke Nukem)

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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:37:44 -0400, Dale E Sterner wrote:
> Would you or anyone else know if there is an 802.11 client for dos?
> Never heard of one but you guys know alot more than I ever will.

I don't think there is such thing as a "802.11 client" - it only depends
whether or not the given wifi card has a driver for DOS.

I know that there are (old) wifi network cards with DOS compatibility,
but these are usually restricted to WEP encryption, which is very weak.

A probably better solution (that I use myself) is too use a classic
Ethernet network card with DOS, and hook it to some wifi AP in bridge
mode. When considering what network card to use, I like to compare the
memory footprint of its packet packet driver. For example the packet
driver of an RTL8139 consumes 26K of RAM, while the packet driver of a
3C590 needs only 11K.

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:14:21 -0400, Dale E Sterner wrote:
> I see that someone on Ebay is selling an HP mini with a FREEDOS os
> installed. All the HP minis that I've seen have wifi & bluetooth built
> in. That would mean an 802.11 client to do it. The ad doesn't mention
> wifi or bluetooth but every mini that I've seen has it.

If you're really considering this, then I'd recommend asking the seller
first to confirm that the 802.11 actually works under FreeDOS. Most of
the time, "FreeDOS" PCs are not meant to be usable, but just show that
"something boots", before reinstalling a modern OS.

Mateusz





> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:50:04 + (UTC) Mateusz Viste
>  writes:
>> On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:37:44 -0400, Dale E Sterner wrote:
>> > Would you or anyone else know if there is an 802.11 client for
>> dos?
>> > Never heard of one but you guys know alot more than I ever will.
>>
>> I don't think there is such thing as a "802.11 client" - it only
>> depends whether or not the given wifi card has a driver for DOS.
>>
>> I know that there are (old) wifi network cards with DOS compatibility,
>> but these are usually restricted to WEP encryption, which is very weak.
>>
>> A probably better solution (that I use myself) is too use a classic
>> Ethernet network card with DOS, and hook it to some wifi AP in bridge
>> mode. When considering what network card to use, I like to compare the
>> memory footprint of its packet packet driver. For example the packet
>>
>> driver of an RTL8139 consumes 26K of RAM, while the packet driver of a
>> 3C590 needs only 11K.
>>
>> Mateusz
>>


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:

> I installed win 7 on a laptop to see what it could do but not to use it.

Where did you get the copy of Win7 you installed?

> The laptop doesn't have an internet connection so had to use the
> phone method.to  Install it.

Are you certain that worked correctly?

> I installed software that I bought to see what it  would do on win 7.

What software was this?

> A lot of of message boxes came up giving me 24 hours to reactive
> or it would shut down forever.

Did those messages come from Win7 or the software you installed?

> I left the test software on being affraid that if I removed it, it would
> do it again. Win 7 is now on my junk software list.

I'm afraid my take from here is pilot error.  When you don't actually
know what you're doing, problems arise.

You got DOS and DOS apps in the old days, got them to where you
wanted, and stopped.  If what you have does what you need, splendid.
If it doesn't, you are looking at stepping beyond DOS.  That will mean
either a flavor of Windows or a flavor of Linux.  Either way, there's
a learning curve you're stuck with, and you need to learn more about
and better understand what your options are.

Proceeding without knowledge is a good way to shoot yourself in *both* feet.

> cheers
> DS
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Ulrich Hansen]

From: Ulrich Hansen 


--===7907458448220515418==
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Several years ago I wrote everything I could find out about DOS and Wifi here:

http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/WiFi

If anybody finds out more about it, please give some feedback...


> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:07:35 -0400 dmccunney 
> writes:
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Dale E Sterner
>>  wrote:
>>> I see that someone on Ebay is selling an HP mini
>>> with a FREEDOS os installed. All the HP minis that
>>> I've seen have wifi & bluetooth built in. That would
>>> mean an 802.11 client to do it. The ad doesn't
>>> mention wifi or bluetooth but every mini that I've seen
>>> has it.
>>
>> The machine may have the *hardware*.  Whether the hardware will be
>> *usable* will depend on software.
>>
>> MSDOS was written back before Wifi and Bluetooth *existed*.  FreeDOS
>> tries to be compatible with MSDOS, which means "support for what
>> existed when MSDOS was current."
>>
>> I would *not* expect Wifi or Bluetooth to be usable on the machine
>> in
>> FreeDOS, because the drivers don't exist.  If you want to use Wifi
>> or
>> Bluetooth on that hardware, you'll need to install another OS that
>> supports them.  (Depending on exactly which HP mini model it is,
>> there
>> might be a flavor of Linux that can do it.)
>> __
>> Dennis
>>
>>
> -
> -
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> ___
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>>
>
>
> **
>> From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
> http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
> ***
>
> 
> The Easiest Way To Shed Deep Fat?
> 3 Harmful Foods
> http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/58f7bb5e84cae3b5e7b11st02duc
>
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Several years ago I
wrote everything I could find out about DOS and Wifi
here:http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/WiFi";>http://wiki.freedos.org/wiki/index.php/WiFiIf
 anybody finds out more about it, please give some 
feedback...On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:07:35 -0400 
dmccunney dennis.mccun...@gmail.com>writes:On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Dale E Sterner 
sunbeam...@juno.com> 
wrote:I see that someone on Ebay is selling an HP 
miniwith a FREEDOS os installed. All the HP minis 
thatI've seen have wifi & bluetooth built in. 
That wouldmean an 802.11 client to do it. The 
ad doesn'tmention wifi or bluetooth but every 
mini that I've seenhas 
it.The 
machine may have the *hardware*.  Whether the hardware will 
be*usable* will depend on 
software.MSDOS 
was written back before Wifi and Bluetooth *existed*. 
 FreeDOStries to be c
ompatible with MSDOS, which means "support for 
whatexisted when MSDOS 
was current."I would 
*not* expect Wifi or Bluetooth to be usable on the machine 
inFreeDOS, because the drivers don't exist.  If you want 
to use Wifi orBluetooth on that hardware, you'll need to install another OS 
thatsupports them. 
 (Depending on exactly which HP mini model it is, 
theremight be a flavor of Linux that can do 
it.)
__Dennis--Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's 
mostengaging tech sites, 
http://Slashdot.org";>Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot";>http://sdm.link/slashdot___Freedos-user mailing listmailto:Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net";>Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.so
urceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user**From Dale Sterner - MS organic 
chemistryhttp://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052";>http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052***

Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

I see that someone on Ebay is selling an HP mini
with a FREEDOS os installed. All the HP minis that
I've seen have wifi & bluetooth built in. That would
mean an 802.11 client to do it. The ad doesn't
mention wifi or bluetooth but every mini that I've seen
has it.


cheers
DS



On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:50:04 + (UTC) Mateusz Viste
 writes:
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 10:37:44 -0400, Dale E Sterner wrote:
> > Would you or anyone else know if there is an 802.11 client for
> dos?
> > Never heard of one but you guys know alot more than I ever will.
>
> I don't think there is such thing as a "802.11 client" - it only
> depends
> whether or not the given wifi card has a driver for DOS.
>
> I know that there are (old) wifi network cards with DOS
> compatibility,
> but these are usually restricted to WEP encryption, which is very
> weak.
>
> A probably better solution (that I use myself) is too use a classic
> Ethernet network card with DOS, and hook it to some wifi AP in
> bridge
> mode. When considering what network card to use, I like to compare
> the
> memory footprint of its packet packet driver. For example the packet
>
> driver of an RTL8139 consumes 26K of RAM, while the packet driver of
> a
> 3C590 needs only 11K.
>
> Mateusz
>
>
>
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>


**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 3:58 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
>
>> I installed win 7 on a laptop to see what it could do but not to use it.
>> I installed software that I bought to see what it  would do on win 7.
>> A lot of of message boxes came up giving me 24 hours to reactive
>> or it would shut down forever.
>
> Did those messages come from Win7 or the software you installed?

Can't you use a RC (release candidate) for a few months? Or is that
not supported any longer?

>> I left the test software on being affraid that if I removed it, it would
>> do it again. Win 7 is now on my junk software list.

In fairness, Win7 doesn't have a lot of life left, so it's not a good
long-term solution. (Vista very recently died, so no more updates or
fixes.)

> You got DOS and DOS apps in the old days, got them to where you
> wanted, and stopped.  If what you have does what you need, splendid.
> If it doesn't, you are looking at stepping beyond DOS.  That will mean
> either a flavor of Windows or a flavor of Linux.  Either way, there's
> a learning curve you're stuck with, and you need to learn more about
> and better understand what your options are.

I can't help but wonder if a simple Chromebook (from Best Buy, etc.)
would fit the bill for him (or me or others). But without QEMU or
similar by default, it's probably less useful. Google probably thinks
emulation would be overkill for the "light" tasks that Chromebooks
support. You can "probably" install a full Ubuntu (instead of default
ChromeOS), but I'm not sure of the potential tradeoffs there (battery
life?).

A lot of issues with old DOS software have to do with printing, as one
guy on BTTR recently mentioned needing. Not sure what is perfectly
ideal here (VDosPlus??). BTW, QEMU 2.9.0 was just released today (but
I'm unaware of any relevant changes for us).

Another long shot would be DOS emulation in the browser via
Javascript. Normally I would shun that for being too buggy or slow,
but there are TONS of Javascript emulators. It's shocking actually,
and some are amazingly good (and network-aware), e.g. OpenRISC. Of
course, DOS is not high priority, and copy.sh's V86 is still too
buggy, but we can dream, can't we?   ;-)

> Proceeding without knowledge is a good way to shoot yourself in *both* feet.

Shooting your foot off? Yes, C++17 was finalized recently.   :-))

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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

With windows if your PC dies and you want to move
to a dupicate and keep running - your out of luck.
Windows ability to detect small changes is amazing -
it just wants to stop. Win 7 is such a pain to
deal with I think even DOS could beat it.
Every time I install new software it wants to be
reauthenticated.

cheers
DS


On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:57:35 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 3:34 PM, Dale E Sterner 
> wrote:
>
> > Maybe the people who have produced the mini
> > also wrote some software to make it useful.
>
> Sorry, but that's wishful thinking.  The HP mini wasn't issued as a
> DOS machine.  FreeDOS was an after the fact addition on the one you
> saw, not original equipment.
>
> > I like DOS I hope it moves foreward.
>
> It won't.  What will move it?  What you would like to see will
> require
> time and effort by highly skilled programmers.  The folks who *can*
> do
> what you want expect to be *paid* for their work.  Who will pay
> them,
> and why?  There hasn't been a paying market for DOS and DOS software
> for decades.
>
> > Windows is so single PC oriented. I've tried moving
> > windows to a twin PC - same everything and it
> > somehow knew it was different and didn't
> > want to run.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean by "twin PC".  But Windows is licensed to
> a
> single PC.   Want to run it on the second PC?  Get another copy of
> Windows with a different license key..
>
> One reason for using Linux is that it doesn't care, and you can
> install it from the same distribution media on multiple machines.
>
> > DOS has no such problems. DOS finds its legs and wants to run.
>
> And if what you want to do can be done by DOS, you are fine.
> Increasingly, what you might want to do *can't* be done under DOS.
> You have a choice of staying put and forgoing the new stuff, or
> moving
> to a different OS.
> __
> Dennis
>
>
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**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksums of yo

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Dale E Sterner  wrote:
> I see that someone on Ebay is selling an HP mini
> with a FREEDOS os installed. All the HP minis that
> I've seen have wifi & bluetooth built in. That would
> mean an 802.11 client to do it. The ad doesn't
> mention wifi or bluetooth but every mini that I've seen
> has it.

The machine may have the *hardware*.  Whether the hardware will be
*usable* will depend on software.

MSDOS was written back before Wifi and Bluetooth *existed*.  FreeDOS
tries to be compatible with MSDOS, which means "support for what
existed when MSDOS was current."

I would *not* expect Wifi or Bluetooth to be usable on the machine in
FreeDOS, because the drivers don't exist.  If you want to use Wifi or
Bluetooth on that hardware, you'll need to install another OS that
supports them.  (Depending on exactly which HP mini model it is, there
might be a flavor of Linux that can do it.)
__
Dennis

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[Freedos-user] EtherDFS v0.8.1

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

Hello group,

Not that long ago I announced here a new software I have created, named
EtherDFS. EtherDFS is an 'installable filesystem' TSR for DOS. It maps a
drive from a remote computer (typically Linux-based) to a local drive
letter, using raw ethernet frames to communicate.

Last weekend I released a new version of EtherDFS, the version 0.8.1. If
you're using EtherDFS, then upgrading to this latest version is highly
recommended, as it significantly improves the protocol's reliability
(especially important with buggy NICs that sometime send more data than
actually requested by the application - observed at least on Xircom PE3
dongles, but might happen on other hardware as well).

Changelog since v0.6:

[version 0.8.1]
 - EtherDFS frames are validated by a cksum (can be disabled with /n),
 - EDF5 frames announce their length to avoid troubles with Ethernet
padding,
 - arguments can be passed in any order,
 - /q and /u can be used together.

[version 0.8]
 - improved self-detection to avoid loading EtherDFS twice,
 - added unloading support (/u),
 - fixed a FindFirst regression (fixes usage under 4DOS),
 - fixed SETATTR action when using a non-FreeDOS attrib command,
 - implemented the 'Seek From End' call,
 - minor memory optimizations,
 - makes sure the redirector API is available before installing,
 - support for multiple drive mappings.

[version 0.7]
 - MS-DOS compat: flagging newly mapped drive so MS-DOS doesn't ignore it,
 - fixed FindNext behavior so it's compatible with ATTRIB from MS-DOS,
 - implemented the "Special Open" call (used by COPY in MSDOS 5.0 and
6.x),
 - increased timeout retries from 3 to 5 (more reliable on lossy
networks),
 - fixed parsing of the MAC address provided on command-line,
 - minor speed optimizations.

Project's website: http://etherdfs.sourceforge.net

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] WIFI on DOS (was: bsum - compute BSD checksumsof yo

[Dale E Sterner]

From: Dale E Sterner 

Maybe the people who have produced the mini
also wrote some software to make it useful.
I like DOS I hope it moves foreward. Windows
is so single PC oriented. I've tried moving
windows to a twin PC - same everything and it
somehow knew it was different and didn't
want to run. DOS has no such problems.
DOS finds its legs and wants to run.


cheers
DS


On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 15:07:35 -0400 dmccunney 
writes:
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Dale E Sterner
>  wrote:
> > I see that someone on Ebay is selling an HP mini
> > with a FREEDOS os installed. All the HP minis that
> > I've seen have wifi & bluetooth built in. That would
> > mean an 802.11 client to do it. The ad doesn't
> > mention wifi or bluetooth but every mini that I've seen
> > has it.
>
> The machine may have the *hardware*.  Whether the hardware will be
> *usable* will depend on software.
>
> MSDOS was written back before Wifi and Bluetooth *existed*.  FreeDOS
> tries to be compatible with MSDOS, which means "support for what
> existed when MSDOS was current."
>
> I would *not* expect Wifi or Bluetooth to be usable on the machine
> in
> FreeDOS, because the drivers don't exist.  If you want to use Wifi
> or
> Bluetooth on that hardware, you'll need to install another OS that
> supports them.  (Depending on exactly which HP mini model it is,
> there
> might be a flavor of Linux that can do it.)
> __
> Dennis
>
>
-
-
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>


**
>From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052
***


The Easiest Way To Shed Deep Fat?
3 Harmful Foods
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Re: [Freedos-user] reminder

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 11:51 AM, Bret Johnson  wrote:
>
> What you're wanting is pretty simple, so a full-blown calendar program is
definitely overkill.
> I think I've seen references to programs like what you want to do before, but
I don't use any
> of them myself and don't remember the names of any of them.  Somebody else
may be
> able to remember or come up with something.

Perhaps this?

http://reimagery.com/fsfd/calend.htm

> If I wanted to do something like this myself, I would probably just do it
with a batch file
> and a general-purpose environment-manipulation program like ASET or STRINGS
(one
> place you can get these at is http://reimagery.com/fsfd/batch1.htm).  These
kinds of
> programs allow you to do all kinds of things in batch files with environment
variables (set
> environment variables to dates, extract lines from files, do various math
functions, etc.).
> They ultimately allow you to do lots of things with batch files that are
impossible with just
> the standard batch file limitations.
>
> Doing this with a batch file will require a little bit of effort on your
part, but I'm sure you will
> like the results.

Personally, it sounds like a job for REXX, but obviously you can use
whatever tools you like.

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Re: [Freedos-user] reminder

[Bret]

From: Bret 

"Reminder" program is kind of vague -- I think you'll need to provide a
little more detail.  There are programs (like my CLOCK program) that can
just beep at you at certain times of the day, and there are actually
full-fledged calendar/task management programs, and all kinds of things
in-between.  You can even use my SCANCODE program to (indirectly) perform
semi-automated tasks at certain times of the day.  Some programs are TSR's
(that run in the background), others not.

What are you actually wanting it to do (how complicated and
configurable/flexible do you actually want it to be)?  Is it something you
can't do some other way, like with a smart phone?



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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 02:03:54 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
> AFAIK, the longer one is 386+ only, hence not available with "cpu 8086".

The above code assembles with "cpu 8086" (NASM 2.12.02).

> Thus, if it still quietly assembles, that is a bug (but I thought that
> was long-ago fixed/avoided).

Perhaps a bug, didn't investigate. My point is - explicitly mentioning
SHORT is always a good idea. Better safe than sorry.

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Jerome Shidel]

From: Jerome Shidel 

Less than 256 bytes of code.

Over 2 Megabytes of controversy.

Shame on you Mateusz!

:-)

All joking aside, from what I gather, your bsum is only meant to verify local
files were copied correctly from one machine to another. Most forms of
checksums should be sufficient for that task.

Sure a collision is possible. More bits in the checksum reduces the
possibility. But even with a SHA 256 hash, the chance of accidental collision
is so remote as to be zero. It is still theoretically possible.

How sure do you need to be? Well, you could be absolutely sure by coping them
over then back. Then doing a byte level comparison between the original and the
copy of a copy.  But why? Now as for a man in the middle of your two
machines... Even that check could be thwarted by a crafty attacker.

So, I assume that the checking done by you bsum is the exact level of certainty
you desire. Sure enough.

Jerome

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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 2:03 AM, Mateusz Viste  wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 22:24:56 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
>
>> What disassembler are you using here? I erroneously thought it was NDISASM.
>
> I don't use ndisasm for a very trivial reason - I am unable to redirect
> its output to a file, so I don't really know how other people use it

It worked fine (redirecting) for me yesterday! I can't imagine why it
wouldn't work for you.

> I didn't figure out any quick and easy workaround (again, too stupid).

Um, excuse me, but he called you "lazy" and "clueless", not "stupid".
I guess we should add "forgetful".   ;-))  j/k

But I'll point to this anyways, "redir", just for a general tip (in
rare case you didn't already know):

http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/doc/utils/utils_7.html

Oh, before I forget, are you perhaps invoking NDISASM via some .BAT?
Of course a .BAT doesn't really redirect (under FreeCOM) without
kludge, e.g. "%COMSPEC% /c".

> The output I pasted before was copied from the NASM listing (-l).

Hmmm, then NASM is being a bit too tricky for its own good.

I do (very naively!) wonder whether "warning: 8086 conditional jump
extended" would be appropriate. Actually, having "[386]" (etc) in
NDISASM output would be nice. (The only workarounds for that are BIEW
and QVIEW, IIRC both of which color-code various instructions. Not
sure about various debuggers off the top of my head.)

> And although I do look at the listing carefully, I do not bother decoding the
> opcodes by hand (too lazy!),

Maybe you should use Lazy Assembler (LZASM)?!:-P  Nah, it
needs a separate linker, even for .COM (bah, too slow, we're too
lazy!).

> I assume that the assembler knows how to
> encode mnemonics into opcodes - that's his job after all, not mine.
> Ultimately, whether the code is assembled into a "long, 5-byte form of
> jump" or "two separate instructions that emulate a jump" is irrelevant to
> me - in both cases it's still 5 bytes, that all I need to know.

I can't even honestly complain, it's indeed a "feature", not a bug!
Not mandatory but certainly nice to have.

>> The simple answer is that code size is rarely as important as programmer
>> convenience.
>
> Maybe. But why bother doing assembly then, if not for the control over
> what machine code is generated at the end?

I was trying to imagine thinking like them, not speaking for myself. I
personally like size optimizations in assembly (obviously??). E.g.
"add si,2" is three bytes but (times 2) "inc si" is only two! But you
won't see a lot of programs that actively try to save such few bytes.
Nobody cares. (Well, most other people!)

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Re: [Freedos-user] reminder

[Don Flowers]

From: Don Flowers 

--===7955720573336150951==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c191e48ed5447054cf4b87f

--94eb2c191e48ed5447054cf4b87f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

I have two that I have installed, Broderbund Memory Mate and
Brown Bag Software's PC-Outline which was included with WordStar 5.5
Professional.
PCO; and if you happen to use BB's PowerMenu a CTRL-\ will bring it up.

https://www.pcorner.com/list/WORDP/PCO334.ZIP/README.1/

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:00 AM, Rinaldo Guelpa 
wrote:

> Hello Bret,
> All I want to do , the reminder should remind me of a birthday eiter on the
> date or a few days ahead say 5 or 3 days ahead , just have it in my
> .autoexec.bat file so on startup it will run and inform me of  a person and
> the birthday.
> Best wishes
> Rinaldo.
> guelpa...@telkomsa.net
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bret" 
> To: 
> Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 4:24 AM
> Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] reminder
>
>
> > "Reminder" program is kind of vague -- I think you'll need to provide a
> > little more detail.  There are programs (like my CLOCK program) that can
> > just beep at you at certain times of the day, and there are actually
> > full-fledged calendar/task management programs, and all kinds of things
> > in-between.  You can even use my SCANCODE program to (indirectly) perform
> > semi-automated tasks at certain times of the day.  Some programs are
> TSR's
> > (that run in the background), others not.
> >
> > What are you actually wanting it to do (how complicated and
> > configurable/flexible do you actually want it to be)?  Is it something
> you
> > can't do some other way, like with a smart phone?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> > http://freedos.10956.n7.nabble.com/reminder-tp26112p26123.html
> > Sent from the FreeDOS - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
> > 
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>
>
>
> 
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--94eb2c191e48ed5447054cf4b87f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have two that I have installed, Broderbund Memory
Mate andBrown Bag Software's PC-Outline which was included with
WordStar 5.5 Professional.PCO; and if you happen to use BB's
PowerMenu a CTRL-\ will bring it up.https://www.pcorner.com/list/WORDP/PCO334.ZIP/README.1/";>https://www.pcorner.com/list/WORDP/PCO334.ZIP/README.1/On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 3:00 
AM, Rinaldo Guelpa guelpa...@telkomsa.net> wrote:Hello Bret,
All I want to do , the reminder should remind me of a birthday eiter on the
date or a few days ahead say 5 or 3 days ahead , just have it in my
..autoexec.bat file so on startup it will run and inform me of-a a person
and
the birthday.
Best wishes
Rinaldo.
mailto:guelpa...@telkomsa.net";>guelpa...@telkomsa.net

- Original Message -
From: "Bret" bretj...@juno.com>
To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] reminder


> "Reminder" program is kind of vague -- I think you'll need
to provide a
> little more detail.-a There are programs (like my CLOCK program) that
can
> just beep at you at certain times of the day, and there are actually
> full-fledged calendar/task management programs, and all kinds of
things
> in-between.-a You can even use my SCANCODE program to (indirectly)
perform
> semi-automated tasks at certain times of the day.-a Some programs are
TSR's
> (that run in the background), others not.
>
> What are you actually wanting it to do (how complicated and
> configurable/flexible do you actually want it to be)?-a Is it something
you
> can't do some other way, like with a smart phone?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://freedos.10956.n7.nabble.com/reminder-tp26112p26123.html";
rel="noreferrer" 
target="_blank">http://freedos.10956.n7.nabble.com/reminder-tp26112p26123.html
> Sent from the FreeDOS - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> 
--
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.li

Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Bret Johnson]

From: "Bret Johnson" 

> I double-checked, latest NDISASM still decodes as two separate instructions.

A disassembler would not report two separate instructions unless the actual
compiled code had two separate instructions.  Every assembler/compiler I know
of does little "tricks" to make the programmer's job a little easier
(basically, changes subtle/minor things behind your back).  They also all seem
to do different "tricks" (even in different versions of the same
assembler/compiler), so even in ASM you're not really 100% in control of the
resulting code.  In ASM you're much more in control than you are in any
high-level language, though.

> The simple answer is that code size is rarely as important as programmer
convenience.

There are really several different major things that you must balance: program
size, memory footprint, speed, and maintainability.  "Programmer convenience"
is just a subset of maintainability, which also includes things like program
structure, language/compiler/assembler/libraries chosen, documentation, and
code commenting.  Which of the items has the highest precedence depends on
circumstances and goals at the time.  TSR's and device drivers, e.g., are very
different than foreground programs -- memory footprint really matters (a lot)
in TSR's and device drivers, though not necessarily so much in foreground
programs (at least not in all foreground programs).

It also depends on your intended target audience/hardware.  Modern CPU's also
do all kinds of "tricks" to increase speed (caching, pipelining, branch
prediction, virtual machines/CPU's/memory, memory alignment issues, etc.), so
code that is faster on a real 8086/8088 CPU may actually be (relatively) slower
in a different environment.  Looking up clock-cycles-per-CPU-instruction is a
guideline, but not the final answer as to how fast something really is.
Smaller size tends to equate to faster speed, though that's not absolute.  It
is true that a smaller memory footprint is more likely to remain in the CPU
cache(s) (at least on CPU's that have caches and have them enabled), so a
smaller memory footprint always increases speed (or at least the likelihood of
speed) in that sense.


--
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evolutionist.

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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Tom Ehlert]

From: Tom Ehlert 

>>> Unless I'm mistaken, conditional jumps on 8086 don't go beyond -128 ..
>>> 127 (signed) byte range. Hence the billions of workarounds (TASM
>>> "jumps", MASM "option ljmp", etc).
right.

>> I won't argue about what opcode is or is not available on 8086, since I
>> did not bother decoding their exact meaning.

meaning 'I am a lazy, clueless guy, but write anyway ...'

>> I do see however that (NASM
>> at least) can assemble JZ and JZ SHORT in two very different forms, JZ
>> SHORT being significantly shorter.
>>
>>   5  B80100  mov ax, 1
>>   6 0003 48  dec ax
>>   7 0004 746Ajz short gameover
>>
>>   5  B80100  mov ax, 1
>>   6 0003 48  dec ax
>>   7 0004 7503E9DD01  jz gameover
>>
>> Of course NASM always uses the short form whenever it's possible, but
>> when the jump is too far away it silently uses the longer form, hence the
>> need to always specify SHORT if one wants to be sure what's going on.

> AFAIK,
meaning 'I am completely clueless , but offer my unfounded opinion anyway ...'

> the longer one is 386+ only, hence not available with "cpu
> 8086". Thus, if it still quietly assembles, that is a bug (but I
> thought that was long-ago fixed/avoided).

the longer one is 2 instructions instead, automatically generated by NASM
because the intended jump goes farther then 127 bte


c:\>debug
-e 100
1430:0100  00.75   00.03   00.e9   00.dd   00.01
-u 100
1430:0100 7503  JNZ 0105
1430:0102 E9DD01JMP 02E2


Tom



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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

Hi Tom,

That's nice of you to provide the explanation. I didn't read it
completely (too lazy), nor understand it fully (too stupid), but the
other clueless guy might find it interesting that he was only half wrong.

At the end of the day, I will keep using "JZ SHORT" anyway, 'cause that
just works for me.

cheers,
Mateusz





On Tue, 11 Apr 2017 12:33:17 +0200, Tom Ehlert wrote:
 Unless I'm mistaken, conditional jumps on 8086 don't go beyond -128
 ..
 127 (signed) byte range. Hence the billions of workarounds (TASM
 "jumps", MASM "option ljmp", etc).
> right.
>
>>> I won't argue about what opcode is or is not available on 8086, since
>>> I did not bother decoding their exact meaning.
>
> meaning 'I am a lazy, clueless guy, but write anyway ...'
>
>>> I do see however that (NASM at least) can assemble JZ and JZ SHORT in
>>> two very different forms, JZ SHORT being significantly shorter.
>>>
>>>   5  B80100  mov ax, 1 6 0003 48  dec
>>>   ax 7 0004 746Ajz short gameover
>>>
>>>   5  B80100  mov ax, 1 6 0003 48  dec
>>>   ax 7 0004 7503E9DD01  jz gameover
>>>
>>> Of course NASM always uses the short form whenever it's possible, but
>>> when the jump is too far away it silently uses the longer form, hence
>>> the need to always specify SHORT if one wants to be sure what's going
>>> on.
>
>> AFAIK,
> meaning 'I am completely clueless , but offer my unfounded opinion
> anyway ...'
>
>> the longer one is 386+ only, hence not available with "cpu 8086". Thus,
>> if it still quietly assembles, that is a bug (but I thought that was
>> long-ago fixed/avoided).
>
> the longer one is 2 instructions instead, automatically generated by
> NASM because the intended jump goes farther then 127 bte
>
>
> c:\>debug -e 100 1430:0100  00.75   00.03   00.e9   00.dd   00.01 -u 100
> 1430:0100 7503  JNZ 0105 1430:0102 E9DD01JMP
> 02E2
>
>
> Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] reminder

[Rinaldo Guelpa]

From: "Rinaldo Guelpa" 

Hello Bret,
All I want to do , the reminder should remind me of a birthday eiter on the
date or a few days ahead say 5 or 3 days ahead , just have it in my
..autoexec.bat file so on startup it will run and inform me of  a person and
the birthday.
Best wishes
Rinaldo.
guelpa...@telkomsa.net

- Original Message -
From: "Bret" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 4:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] reminder


> "Reminder" program is kind of vague -- I think you'll need to provide a
> little more detail.  There are programs (like my CLOCK program) that can
> just beep at you at certain times of the day, and there are actually
> full-fledged calendar/task management programs, and all kinds of things
> in-between.  You can even use my SCANCODE program to (indirectly) perform
> semi-automated tasks at certain times of the day.  Some programs are TSR's
> (that run in the background), others not.
>
> What are you actually wanting it to do (how complicated and
> configurable/flexible do you actually want it to be)?  Is it something you
> can't do some other way, like with a smart phone?
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://freedos.10956.n7.nabble.com/reminder-tp26112p26123.html
> Sent from the FreeDOS - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> Freedos-user mailing list
> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
>



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Re: [Freedos-user] reminder

[John R. Sowden]

From: "John R. Sowden" 

today.exe by Patrick Kincaid. We use it every day.

John


On 04/10/2017 11:33 PM, Rinaldo Guelpa wrote:
> Hi Friends,
> I am looking for a simple reminder program in dos, can you please help.
> Cheers
> Rinaldo
> guelpa...@telkomsa.net 
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] DOS ideas with fast simple algorithms - was:BSUM BS

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:21:26 +0200, Eric Auer wrote:
> For checking if downloads worked without noise, I would already want
> something "stronger" than BSUM, such as
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%27s_checksum

As already stated in this thread a few times, the BSD checksum is far
from perfect - its major advantage is that it's extremely simple, hence
fast to compute even on a 8088, yet at the time it is reasonable to
assume in normal conditions (ie. no malicious intent) that a file that
shows the same BSD checksum before and after a transfer is indeed the
same file.

Still, since you mention "stronger" algorithms, it might be interesting
(if not entertaining) to see how the BSD checksum compares in terms of
collisions to other algorithms like CRC16, CRC32, Fletcher, etc. I did
try to google that out, but unfortunately the BSD checksum is rarely
mentioned in this kind of research. Would you mind sharing some links
that explain how much stronger the other algorithms are, and what are the
actual chances of hitting a collision by accident with BSUM?

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[dmccunney]

From: dmccunney 

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:36 AM, Mateusz Viste  wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 00:56:17 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
>
>> Splurge on the memory, give it 32 kb or so. It'll "probably" be faster
>> with a bigger buffer.
>
> At the cost of reducing the number of platforms it would be able to run
> on.

I have to ask.  How many folks *have* platforms now it *wouldn't* run
on? I suspect the number is *very* small.

(Most folks now are trying to get FreeDOS to boot native on a machine
rather larger and more powerful than the machines DOS was used on, or
running it in a VM.  Even folks doing embedded development on IoT
devices are probably dealing with fast full 32bit CPUs with more than
enough RAM and external storage, and can run a Linux kernel or an RTOS
that bears no resemblance to DOS.)

> Mateusz
__
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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Mateusz Viste  wrote:
>
> That's nice of you to provide the explanation. I didn't read it
> completely (too lazy), nor understand it fully (too stupid), but the
> other clueless guy might find it interesting that he was only half wrong.

Just to clarify, I'll quote from the A86 text manual:

"
NOTE that for A86, LONG will have effect only on the operand to
an unconditional JMP instruction; not to conditional jumps.  That
is because conditional jumps farther than 127 bytes are available
only on the 386 and later processors.  If you run into this
problem, then chances are your code is getting out of
control--time to rearrange, or to break off some of the
intervening code into separate procedures.  If you insist upon
leaving the code intact, you can replace the conditional jump
with an 'IF cond JMP'.
"

> At the end of the day, I will keep using "JZ SHORT" anyway, 'cause that
> just works for me.

My problem with always explicitly saying "short" is that it's both
unnecessary and verbose. But I (reluctantly) agree that here it's your
best option for safety. (Though I would still hide it behind a
preprocessor macro or whatever, for brevity.)

What disassembler are you using here? I erroneously thought it was
NDISASM. I also misremembered NDISASM as saying "jz near" (only) for
386+ jumps. I also misremembered such near/long jumps as being five
bytes when they are, in fact, only four.

I halfway remembered that the 386+ jz opcode started with 0Fh (sorry,
Tom) but wasn't sure offhand without checking. But here your
disassembler apparently put two jumps on one line, as if only one,
which is weird. I know it's a common idiom, but I didn't think a
literally disassembler would use that! (I double-checked, latest
NDISASM still decodes as two separate instructions.)

0Fh is actually the opcode to (discontinued, 8086-only) "POP CS". Both
FASM and NASM apparently support that (why?), but A86 apparently
doesn't.

Part of the confusion also lies with NASM. In the old days, you had to
explicitly enable -O3 to enable this 8086 conditional jump workaround,
e.g. 0.98.39 (by looking at old code of mine). NASM 2.09 started
enabling -Ox [sic] by default. However, it appears that even with -O0
nowadays, if you're using "cpu 8086", it will still extend your
conditional jumps in this manner. It didn't use to do that
automatically, nor for -O0.

The simple answer is that code size is rarely as important as
programmer convenience. Sure, if you're trying to squeeze every last
byte, you'll maybe accidentally be bit by this. But most people, by
far, don't care about code size and only care about functionality. I'm
only guessing, but that's my impression as to why NASM would always do
this by default nowadays.

P.S. http://stevemorse.org/8086/ is also an interesting read.

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Re: [Freedos-user] DOS ideas with fast simple algorithms - was: BSUM BS

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi, Eric, always good to hear from you,

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Eric Auer  wrote:
>
>> BSUM (by Mateusz Viste) :  6.0s (100%)
>> CRC32 (by Joe Forster)  :  8.5s  (70%)
>
>> MD5 (by Colin Plumb): 52.9s  (11%)
>> SHA1 (by Colin Plumb)   : 85.7s   (7%)
>
> Entertaining :-) Still you need to find a good balance
> between speed and collision risk. If you want to find
> duplicate files, you can first check simply the sizes.

Check sizes? Okay, but some files still have bogus data at the end
that is (largely) ignored.

Well, maybe .ZIP comments aren't quite the literal "end", but I did
find a .ZIP recently that had a bunch of 0x1A (EOF) markers appended
(for some obscure reason, yes I know about CP/M's reasoning, but why
would that carry over to a DOS-only .ZIP ???). And I've seen .ZIPs
with the same exact files but using different internal compression
methods. Same with OS-specific "extra fields".

So even if the outside container is "slightly" different, the
internals are 100% the same. There are no guarantees for 100% "byte
exact", usually only "close enough".

I am not a mathematician, and I'm out of the loop, but I feel like the
risk of (accidental) collision is still fairly low. Call me naive.
Besides, don't forget that .ZIP (and .ARJ and who else, ZOO ??) still
uses CRC32 internally, and .ZIP is still overwhelmingly used for
downloads (despite more efficient solutions). Even .7z and .xz have
been criticized for flaws, so nothing is perfect.

Similarly, it's not as easy as it sounds to replicate 100% "byte
exact" executables. Even the slightest detail can alter the checksum,
even if 100% equivalent functionality, even if using the exact same
tools. Honestly, most things (software, data, et al.) just aren't
meant to be "byte exact" (match identical).

> [Skein] is even faster than Groestl but only on modern 64-bit CPU.

"Modern"? AMD64 (with mandatory SSE2) appeared in 2003, Intel cloned
it in Xeons in 2004 and Core 2 in 2006. It's been around quite a
while, in various iterations. I think "modern" probably implies
AVX(es) or newer Haswell-era / Skylake instructions.

Heck, AMD's newfangled Ryzen supports the following (quoting from
Wikipedia):  AMD64/x86-64, MMX(+), SSE1, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE4a,
SSE4.1, SSE4.2, AES, CLMUL, AVX, AVX2, FMA3, CVT16/F16C, ABM, BMI1,
BMI2, SHA

(Note that CLMUL also says it can do ultra-fast CRCs, see the relevant
Intel PDF linked from Wikipedia.)

> If you feel like trying a new DOS project: It would be a
> very fancy thing to have a disk-backed TEA encrypted disk
> image based "disk" or a disk-backed COMPRESSED disk image
> based "disk" driver with some very minimalistic compression
> algorithm.

Regrettably, there hasn't been a lot of interest in DOS file systems
work. Not that I blame them, it's not easy for any OS.

I assume you vaguely remember (or are familiar with) an old DOS
compression program called "DIET", which had an optional TSR mode.
Probably not quite what you meant, but I'm just reminding you anyways.
  ;-)

ftp://ftp.sac.sk/pub/sac/pack/diet145f.zip

> A tiny-amount-of-RAM compression algorithm would be for
> example run length encoding. LZ variants such as LZO can
> decompress without needing extra RAM outside the unpack
> buffer itself.

"mini LZO" is very small, (allegedly) very easy to use / embed in new
projects. It was also updated last month:

http://www.oberhumer.com/opensource/lzo/

> LZO and LZ4 are simple enough to even be used in Linux zram
> which can swap out RAM to a compresed RAM disk on the fly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zram

"zram was merged into the Linux kernel mainline in kernel version
3.14, released on March 30, 2014."

"Google uses zram in Chrome OS since 2013 and in Android since its
version 4.4. Lubuntu also started using zram in its version 13.10."

But I had read somewhere that it only saves a relatively small amount
of RAM (a dozen or so MB). Better than nothing, but not exactly
life-saving / earth-shattering.

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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:57:59 -0400, dmccunney wrote:
> I have to ask.  How many folks *have* platforms now it *wouldn't* run
> on? I suspect the number is *very* small.

Surely, yes. Still, a 700% memory increase for a 10% performance boost
just doesn't feel right. I wrote bsum to cover an extreme case - in such
context I prefer keeping the memory footprint as small as possible.

> Most folks now are trying to get FreeDOS to boot native on a machine
> rather larger and more powerful than the machines DOS was used on, or
> running it in a VM

I'd say that for these machines bsum is irrelevant - they are much better
off using md5 or anything else.

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:07:30 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
> Blair's (16-bit, FD) MD5SUM can do all of those hashes as well. Not sure
> if it'd be faster, though.

I believe that's the one I used. If I understand correctly, the original
author is Colin Plumb, and Blair took the maintenance of it at some point.

> Believe me, shrinking size is fairly easy,

If you say so.

> but it's a tradeoff in accidental errors, readability,
> and speed.

Unless it's a goal in itself ("keep the whole thing in 256 bytes"), as is
the case of bsum.

> Irrelevant aesthetics:   lines too long (shouldn't be more than 80),

I'll skip all aesthetics remarks, since these are a rather personal thing.

> irrelevant "jz short ..." (when "short" conditional jump is always
> mandatory for "cpu 8086").

I don't think so.
Note that short means "8 bit jump" in this context, and NOT "16 bit jump".

> "section .data align=1" is probably what you intended here. (No need to
> comment it out entirely.

No need to have it either (not in tiny model).

> The program does not end in a CR+LF pair. Thus the output is an
> incomplete line. Not a huge deal but still (sometimes) noticeable.

True. I noticed that command.com adds a CR+LF pair whenever a program
doesn't end with those. This seems to be consistent with both FreeDOS and
MS-DOS, so I thought I'd exploit this to save a few bytes in the program.

> "int 21h // xchg ax, bp // int 21h" is repeated several times. If you
> really want to save space, put "msgquit:" before the first one and "jmp
> short msgquit" for the others (since this is quitting the program
> anyways).

Indeed, that would save 1 byte or 2. Good catch.

> BTW, most asm devs actively hate "loop" in lieu of "dec // jnz". Not
> sure if this would really be worth it, even for your 8086.

Actually my trunk version (svn) does avoid loop in favor of dec/jnz.
The former is shorter by one byte, but 3 times slower than the latter
(5/6 clks vs 2 clks).

> "shl bx, cl" (where CL=4) is also shunned, AFAIK, on 8086 machines, in
> lieu of speedier (times 4) "shl bx,1".

But repeated shl bx,1 is so much bigger. I definitely prefer shl bx,cl,
at least whenever not in performance-critical parts.

> Converting hex nibble to ASCII shouldn't need a jump at all. On the 8086
> all jumps are very slow. Best to avoid them entirely if possible.
> Here you can easily use the old "cmp al, 0Ah // sbb al, 69h // das"
> trick instead. But since you're only printing hex one time (instead of
> thousands), you probably don't care.

Indeed, I care little about jumps there, but still your version might be
shorter, which would make it interesting. Will compare.

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi again,

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 8:36 AM, Mateusz Viste  wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 00:56:17 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
>>
>> It would be interesting to see some benchmark numbers for that (for
>> various specific tools, 8086, 386, etc).
>
> Just for the fun of it, I did some quick measures on my 386SX PC,
> computing various checksums of a 2 MiB file. Results below.

Very interesting 

> CRC32 (by Colin Plumb)  : 26.7s  (22%)
> MD5 (by Colin Plumb): 52.9s  (11%)
> SHA1 (by Colin Plumb)   : 85.7s   (7%)

Blair's (16-bit, FD) MD5SUM can do all of those hashes as well. Not
sure if it'd be faster, though.

> BSUM is the fastest, which is no surprise since the algorithm is
> extremely simple (4 CPU instructions). The CRC32 computation by Joe
> Forster is surprisingly fast as well. It's 30% slower than bsum and the
> binary is 4x times larger (and I suppose the memory usage is also much
> higher) but that's still quite impressive for a 32-bit checksum.

"30% slower" is machine specific, and I'm quite sure it can be
improved. Although his tool does seem to use a fairly big (64512 byte)
buffer.

***
If extremely bored, check out these "modern" (CRC32C, aka Castagnoli)
implementations, which I don't grok:

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17645167/implementing-sse-4-2s-crc32c-in-software
http://www.drdobbs.com/parallel/fast-parallelized-crc-computation-using/229401411
***

Of course he also combines (unused) decimal output routine with (used)
hex output routine, which unnecessarily (in this case) always uses
slow DIV (which you don't need at all for converting to hex). Of
course he only needs to call that routine once at the end. It would be
much worse result if called more often (e.g. hundreds of times). I've
done the same mistake in the past, too.

"4x times larger" is only in raw bytes, but in reality it uses a full
cluster (as you well know), so even a 256 byte .COM will still use
minimum one cluster (e.g. 512 bytes on 1.44 MB floppy). So 1024 isn't
really much worse than 512.   ;-)Believe me, shrinking size is
fairly easy, but it's a tradeoff in accidental errors, readability,
and speed.

>> Splurge on the memory, give it 32 kb or so. It'll "probably" be faster
>> with a bigger buffer.
>
> At the cost of reducing the number of platforms it would be able to run on.
> Currently bsum uses an 8K memory buffer to optimize disk reads. Using a
> buffer of 64KB increases the overall speed by 10%. Not that much, for a
> 700% increase of memory usage.

Don't you have an 8086 machine? How much RAM does it have? I had
thought most had at least 64 kb of RAM, but I guess that's not
accounting for the DOS + shell overhead. Honestly, I wrote several
simple hexdump variants in recent months, and the biggest slowdown was
my small buffer (only 16 bytes in the .ASM version). The C version is
larger but always well-buffered, so it's the fastest. I even got 2x
speedup (and noticeable size decrease) by avoiding printf entirely and
using my own outhex routine.

Okay, so let me break down your source and give some (trivial)
comments here. I assume that's okay with you!  ;-)

Irrelevant aesthetics:   lines too long (shouldn't be more than 80),
not enough indentation (instructions vs. labels), irrelevant "jz short
" (when "short" conditional jump is always mandatory for "cpu
8086").

"section .data align=1" is probably what you intended here. (No need
to comment it out entirely. I think default is align=4 or some such,
that's probably what you didn't like.)

"buff resb 8192" and "mov cx, 8192" should be moved to EQU for clarity
(and, even better, as "1024 * 8" constant expression).

The program does not end in a CR+LF pair. Thus the output is an
incomplete line. Not a huge deal but still (sometimes) noticeable.

"int 21h // xchg ax, bp // int 21h" is repeated several times. If you
really want to save space, put "msgquit:" before the first one and
"jmp short msgquit" for the others (since this is quitting the program
anyways).

BTW, most asm devs actively hate "loop" in lieu of "dec // jnz". Not
sure if this would really be worth it, even for your 8086.

"shl bx, cl" (where CL=4) is also shunned, AFAIK, on 8086 machines, in
lieu of speedier (times 4) "shl bx,1". But if it's only done extremely
rarely then it won't add up to much difference. Only when done
thousands of times would you barely even notice.

Converting hex nibble to ASCII shouldn't need a jump at all. On the
8086 all jumps are very slow. Best to avoid them entirely if possible.
Here you can easily use the old "cmp al, 0Ah // sbb al, 69h // das"
trick instead. But since you're only printing hex one time (instead of
thousands), you probably don't care.

Okay, just wanted to add my $0.02 in case it was (accidentally) helpful.   :-)

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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Hi,

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 9:52 PM, Mateusz Viste  wrote:
> On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 17:07:30 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
>
>> irrelevant "jz short ..." (when "short" conditional jump is always
>> mandatory for "cpu 8086").
>
> I don't think so.
> Note that short means "8 bit jump" in this context, and NOT "16 bit jump".

Unless I'm mistaken, conditional jumps on 8086 don't go beyond -128 ..
127 (signed) byte range. Hence the billions of workarounds (TASM
"jumps", MASM "option ljmp", etc).

>> "section .data align=1" is probably what you intended here. (No need to
>> comment it out entirely.
>
> No need to have it either (not in tiny model).

But you still have it commented out, so I assume you at least wanted
it for descriptive purposes.

>> The program does not end in a CR+LF pair. Thus the output is an
>> incomplete line. Not a huge deal but still (sometimes) noticeable.
>
> True. I noticed that command.com adds a CR+LF pair whenever a program
> doesn't end with those. This seems to be consistent with both FreeDOS and
> MS-DOS, so I thought I'd exploit this to save a few bytes in the program.

Most (but not all) FreeCOM versions do this too. But ... that won't
work if you redirect the output to file. Then the CR+LF is (still)
missing. Of course, if you really need a workaround, afterwards do
"echo. >>bsum.out" and don't worry about it. (I still have at least
one util with the same problem, but I didn't fix it yet either.
Trivial but annoying. Some tools get confused by such incomplete
lines.)

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[Freedos-user] Brand NEW IBM PC AT + Model M! Unboxing & Setup[LGR] -

[Rugxulo]

From: Rugxulo 

Before I totally forget ... there was this awesome video on YouTube by
LazyGameReviews (about two weeks ago):

"Brand NEW IBM PC AT + Model M! Unboxing & Setup [LGR]"

https://youtu.be/nLy_jEbuY-U

IBM PC AT 5170 (circa 1988), 286 (8 Mhz) w/ 512 kb RAM, EGA, 30 MB
HDD, 1.2 MB floppy drive, PC-DOS 3.30

P.S. Since I love the irony, let me mention that he has more
subscribers on YouTube than this machine has bytes of RAM. (Yes, he's
that good. -- Duke Nukem)

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[Freedos-user] reminder

[Rinaldo Guelpa]

From: "Rinaldo Guelpa" 

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--===8767849113837025069==
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="=_NextPart_000_002B_01D2B29E.47860CB0"

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--=_NextPart_000_002B_01D2B29E.47860CB0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Friends,
I am looking for a simple reminder program in dos, can you please help.
Cheers

Rinaldo
guelpa...@telkomsa.net
--=_NextPart_000_002B_01D2B29E.47860CB0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable








Hi Friends,
I am looking for a simple reminder program in dos,

can you please help.
Cheers
 
Rinaldomailto:guelpa...@telkomsa.net";>guelpa...@telkomsa.net

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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 23:30:35 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
> Unless I'm mistaken, conditional jumps on 8086 don't go beyond -128 ..
> 127 (signed) byte range. Hence the billions of workarounds (TASM
> "jumps", MASM "option ljmp", etc).

I won't argue about what opcode is or is not available on 8086, since I
did not bother decoding their exact meaning. I do see however that (NASM
at least) can assemble JZ and JZ SHORT in two very different forms, JZ
SHORT being significantly shorter.

  5  B80100  mov ax, 1
  6 0003 48  dec ax
  7 0004 746Ajz short gameover

  5  B80100  mov ax, 1
  6 0003 48  dec ax
  7 0004 7503E9DD01  jz gameover

Of course NASM always uses the short form whenever it's possible, but
when the jump is too far away it silently uses the longer form, hence the
need to always specify SHORT if one wants to be sure what's going on.

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] DOS ideas with fast simple algorithms - was: BSUM BS

[Eric Auer]

From: Eric Auer 


Hi Mateusz,

> BSUM (by Mateusz Viste) :  6.0s (100%)
> CRC32 (by Joe Forster)  :  8.5s  (70%)



> MD5 (by Colin Plumb): 52.9s  (11%)
> SHA1 (by Colin Plumb)   : 85.7s   (7%)

Entertaining :-) Still you need to find a good balance
between speed and collision risk. If you want to find
duplicate files, you can first check simply the sizes.

For the remaining candidates, I would say BSUM can be
useful if your disk is fast and your CPU is slow. If
it is the other way round, you feel the extra cost to
read the file as second time for a stronger checksum
after the quick BSUM says "possible" duplicate.

For checking if downloads worked without noise, I would
already want something "stronger" than BSUM, such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher%27s_checksum

or Adler-32, CRC-32 or -64, but for prevention of faked
downloads even MD5 and SHA1 are actually too weak today.

You could check http://skein-hash.info/sha3-engineering
for candidates like groestl.info for fast and quite okay
hash/checksum tasks or use the official choice for that,
Keccak, which got selected as SHA-3 algorithm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skein_(hash_function)

is even faster than Groestl but only on modern 64-bit CPU.

> BSUM is the fastest, which is no surprise since the algorithm is
> extremely simple (4 CPU instructions). The CRC32 computation by Joe
> Forster is surprisingly fast as well...

If you feel like trying a new DOS project: It would be a
very fancy thing to have a disk-backed TEA encrypted disk
image based "disk" or a disk-backed COMPRESSED disk image
based "disk" driver with some very minimalistic compression
algorithm. Example abstraction layer: You could have some
array of CLUSTER offsets into the disk image, with units
in the order of SECTORS. The image could be pre-compressed
with a tool and the disk driver could open it read-only,
or you could store all changed clusters in a new offset as
soon as they no longer fit into their allocated compressed
file, using some offline re-compression process to "defrag"
that growth away later. Advantage of using sectors as units
of cluster offsets would be extremely fast seeking and the
ease of having "small" 16, 24 or 32 bit int as array items.
Which you could even store instead of one of the FAT and
then hide the change by showing users a copy of the other
when they try to access it ;-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Encryption_Algorithm

A tiny-amount-of-RAM compression algorithm would be for
example run length encoding. LZ variants such as LZO can
decompress without needing extra RAM outside the unpack
buffer itself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lempel%E2%80%93Ziv%E2%80%93Oberhumer

Classic exe-packers used algorithms similar to LZ4, which
focus on easy data formats for easiest decompression:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LZ4_(compression_algorithm)

Nibble-based always feels better than having to scrape up
individual bits of some Huffman coded stream even though a
decompressor for those is still reasonably small and fast.

Various harddisk compressors also used methods in the same
style as LZ4 today, so you could say LZ is a real classic.
LZO and LZ4 are simple enough to even be used in Linux zram
which can swap out RAM to a compresed RAM disk on the fly.

> Currently bsum uses an 8K memory buffer to optimize disk reads. Using a
> buffer of 64KB increases the overall speed by 10%. Not that much, for a
> 700% increase of memory usage.

Interesting!

Cheers, Eric :-)



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Re: [Freedos-user] bsum - compute BSD checksums of your files

[Mateusz Viste]

From: Mateusz Viste 

I have to clarify here that my intention was never to compete in any way
with the other algorithms out there. The BSD checksum is a well-known,
and pretty weak (16 bits) checksum. The goal behind bsum was only to
obtain a checksum tool that would run on my 8086 fast enough for me to
not get frustrated, and just good enough to be reasonably sure that the
files I just copied from a diskette and then over network-through-
parallel-port didn't get corrupted in the process.

Mateusz



On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 09:48:41 -0700, Ralf Quint wrote:
> On 4/10/2017 6:36 AM, Mateusz Viste wrote:
>> On Mon, 10 Apr 2017 00:56:17 -0500, Rugxulo wrote:
>>> It would be interesting to see some benchmark numbers for that (for
>>> various specific tools, 8086, 386, etc).
>> Just for the fun of it, I did some quick measures on my 386SX PC,
>> computing various checksums of a 2 MiB file. Results below.
>>
>> BSUM (by Mateusz Viste) :  6.0s (100%)
>> CRC32 (by Joe Forster)  :  8.5s  (70%)
>> CRC32 (by Colin Plumb)  : 26.7s  (22%)
>> MD5 (by Colin Plumb): 52.9s  (11%)
>> SHA1 (by Colin Plumb)   : 85.7s   (7%)
>>
>> BSUM is the fastest, which is no surprise since the algorithm is
>> extremely simple (4 CPU instructions). The CRC32 computation by Joe
>> Forster is surprisingly fast as well. It's 30% slower than bsum and the
>> binary is 4x times larger (and I suppose the memory usage is also much
>> higher) but that's still quite impressive for a 32-bit checksum.
> Well, most of all, it's kind of comparing apples and oranges. Those
> benchmark tests mean nothing if you don't compare them with the number
> of possible collisions you get for each of them.
> Though that doesn't mean that there aren't use cases where "simple does
> it"...
>>> Splurge on the memory, give it 32 kb or so. It'll "probably" be faster
>>> with a bigger buffer.
> Nope, won't do a thing. Didn't do much good "back in the days" to use
> anything over 16KB and it is even less relevant on modern hard drives
> with MBs of cache. Or SSDs...
>
> Ralf


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