Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
One idiot-prof way to install freedos would be by deploying a disk image to the ssd in some automated fashion. In other words, give no options to the user. I have no experience of doing this automatically so I cannot help you there, manually I use dd on Linux to do this when I need to. Den tis 6 nov. 2018 23:31 skrev Cuvtixo D : > Rayman Bathurst- Hi, -I'm impressed with your cred with CP/M and PDPs. > But, maybe you're so experienced that it's difficult to ask questions as a > newbie? I mean, did you skip right into Windows from there or do you have > any experience with IBM-, MS- or DR-DOS? Also, for example, it's difficult > to understand what you mean by "idiotproof" without explaining your > purpose, like: why would you want to do such an unusual thing? For any 32 > or 64-bit PC or evaluation board, on a fresh SSD, you'd want to install a > tiny linux, bsd, or even risc-os (on Raspberry Pi) first, and emulate or > dual boot DOS in one way or another from there. It's hard to imagine why > one would want to do what you ask (unless a hacked antique PC or 16-bit > board maybe?). > I went from Apple ProDOS, a VAX account in college, to 68k Mac, then DOS. > It was a challenge to self-teach myself back then, but I feel like I have > some DOS cred now. > Additional note to Ghostdewolf: I never trust "Linus Tech Tips" or any > Youtube video that starts with some guy making bizarre or shocked > expressions in the intro: they're exploiting algorithms that indicates that > faces with strange expressions attract clicks, not to mention exploiting > Linus Torvold's name. Sure, Linus isn't too unusual a name, but I'm certain > with "tech tips" he's purely exploiting the name for marketing purposes. I > curse Google's Adwords for letting this get out of control on YouTube. > Anyways, an explanation of what the exact application is here would help > those of us who know DOS and SSDs, but who have never attempted this > particular task because it's too impractical for 99+% use cases. > >> >> Freedos-user mailing list >> Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user >> > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
Rayman Bathurst- Hi, -I'm impressed with your cred with CP/M and PDPs. But, maybe you're so experienced that it's difficult to ask questions as a newbie? I mean, did you skip right into Windows from there or do you have any experience with IBM-, MS- or DR-DOS? Also, for example, it's difficult to understand what you mean by "idiotproof" without explaining your purpose, like: why would you want to do such an unusual thing? For any 32 or 64-bit PC or evaluation board, on a fresh SSD, you'd want to install a tiny linux, bsd, or even risc-os (on Raspberry Pi) first, and emulate or dual boot DOS in one way or another from there. It's hard to imagine why one would want to do what you ask (unless a hacked antique PC or 16-bit board maybe?). I went from Apple ProDOS, a VAX account in college, to 68k Mac, then DOS. It was a challenge to self-teach myself back then, but I feel like I have some DOS cred now. Additional note to Ghostdewolf: I never trust "Linus Tech Tips" or any Youtube video that starts with some guy making bizarre or shocked expressions in the intro: they're exploiting algorithms that indicates that faces with strange expressions attract clicks, not to mention exploiting Linus Torvold's name. Sure, Linus isn't too unusual a name, but I'm certain with "tech tips" he's purely exploiting the name for marketing purposes. I curse Google's Adwords for letting this get out of control on YouTube. Anyways, an explanation of what the exact application is here would help those of us who know DOS and SSDs, but who have never attempted this particular task because it's too impractical for 99+% use cases. > > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
Hi! To install FreeDOS on SSD is basically the same as on harddisk. If the disk is totally empty, you will have to use FDISK /MBR or similar to make booting work - just using SYS will not be enough. Otherwise, SSD are almost like fast harddisks. Other differences which exist are not noticed by DOS. In particular, there is no TRIM as far as I know. Explanation of TRIM: Your operating system (in the background) or some tool (each time when you run it) can mark the unused areas on your disk as such. This can help the disk to optimize access. It would probably be possible to extend DEFRAG or SCANDISK to find and mark unused areas. But if you do not support TRIM, there is no real problem. Just less optimized usage. Cheers, Eric ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
Tom, this is exactly what I said. To *support* round robin, not to do round robin. Support in the meaning of helping someone/something with a task. Nils On 11/06/2018 07:18 PM, Tom Ehlert wrote: Trim sounds like the old standard "defrag program" which should be unneeded for flash since all bits get accessed at the same speed. No spinning disk to move around on. wrong. Trim is used for equal usage of memory-cells. It is a mechanism to support round-robin usage of those cells. wrong, too. the drives firmware is responsible to round-robin usage of those cells anyway. it works even on (almost) full disks, too. with an OS that doesn't support TRIM, after a while the drive thinks that all sectors are in use as they have been written at least once. TRIM (capital letters) is a way for the OS to tell the drives firmware which sectors are no longer in use. round-robin usage is made easier if there is more free space available, but works even on completely full disks as the disk always reserves some space for internal use that is not visible on the outside. lookup overprovisioning. Tom ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
>> Trim sounds like the old standard "defrag program" which should >> be unneeded for flash since all bits get accessed at the same speed. >> No spinning disk to move around on. wrong. > Trim is used for equal usage of memory-cells. It is a mechanism to > support round-robin usage of those cells. wrong, too. the drives firmware is responsible to round-robin usage of those cells anyway. it works even on (almost) full disks, too. with an OS that doesn't support TRIM, after a while the drive thinks that all sectors are in use as they have been written at least once. TRIM (capital letters) is a way for the OS to tell the drives firmware which sectors are no longer in use. round-robin usage is made easier if there is more free space available, but works even on completely full disks as the disk always reserves some space for internal use that is not visible on the outside. lookup overprovisioning. Tom ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
On 11/06/2018 05:34 PM, Dale E Sterner wrote: Trim sounds like the old standard "defrag program" which should be unneeded for flash since all bits get accessed at the same speed. No spinning disk to move around on. Trim is used for equal usage of memory-cells. It is a mechanism to support round-robin usage of those cells. Nils ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
Dennis I'm a little behind the times so can you correct my mistakes here. SSD stands for "solid state drive" which is flash memory with a SATA interface. This should be the same as using a CF chip with a SATA adapter. Trim sounds like the old standard "defrag program" which should be unneeded for flash since all bits get accessed at the same speed. No spinning disk to move around on. cheers DS On Mon, 5 Nov 2018 15:45:00 -0500 dmccunney writes: > On Mon, Nov 5, 2018 at 2:50 PM Rugxulo wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2018 at 5:23 AM Raymond Bathurst > wrote: > > > > > > Can anyone recommend an IDIOT-proof method of installing FreeDOS > 1.2 on > > > a fixed SSD drive (with no OS) via one of several USB ports ? > > > > I don't have any SSDs, though, and you need an OS with "TRIM" > support > > (which apparently even OpenBSD lacks). > > What TRIM does is mark SSD cells for collection and reuse. But you > could probably run DOS off an SSD for the life of the PC you used > without ever doing a TRIM operation, and never see any issues. Lack > of TRIM support is *not* a problem. > > Current SSD development aims to make TRIM unnecessary in any case. > ___ > Dennis > https://plus.google.com/u/0/105128793974319004519 > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ** >From Dale Sterner - MS organic chemistry http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jo00975a052 *** We Say Goodbye To Kathie Lee Gifford track.volutrk.com http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/5be1c15a5bd34415a1bedst01duc ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
Using a bootable USB stick 'USBANY' with miscellaneous FreeDOS 1.1 working files on it and following Tom's short notes I made the fixed disk bootable. "Fine". But the nasty sting in my question was how does one install FreeDOS 1.12 on a virgin fixed disk ? The venerable FreeDOS has advanced to version 1.12 without a straightforward method of installing it directly on a new computer. How idiot am I? Well I have crossed hundreds of battlefields since starting with CP/M and PDP-8. Thanks for the help. De : Raymond Bathurst Envoyé : mardi 6 novembre 2018 08:51 À : Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. Objet : Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD rufus will make a USB or a CF bootable with the PC (which has the fixed SSD). The difficulty is making the fixed SSD bootable. The DOS working files can be copied from a convenient USB stick. For some applications DOS is far faster than the pixel-mapped systems. You don't need a luxurious Mercedes to move a box of chocolates down the road. Thank you for your comments. De : Tom Ehlert Envoyé : lundi 5 novembre 2018 20:31 À : Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. Objet : Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD >> Can anyone recommend an IDIOT-proof method of installing FreeDOS 1.2 on >> a fixed SSD drive (with no OS) via one of several USB ports ? 1st, a fixed SSD behaves *exactly* like a ((fast) rotating disk. 2nd, I have no idea how much IDIOT you are, but most likely ANYDOS is not your best option to go. 3rd, I don't know if the freedos installation process is RAYMOND-proof, but it's the best we have to offer. > I don't have any SSDs, though, this might be true. > and you need an OS with "TRIM" support this is complete BS. (capital letters intentionally). (TRIM isn't useless, but it's not *needed* in any way) > It's just that overall DOS (sadly) has less hardware > support for such modern devices, and FreeDOS is no exception. SSDs don't need any support that is not already there: they behave like hard disks. Tom ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
Hallo Herr Raymond Bathurst, am Dienstag, 6. November 2018 um 09:51 schrieben Sie: > rufus will make a USB or a CF bootable with the PC (which has the > fixed SSD). The difficulty is making the fixed SSD bootable. The DOS > working files can be copied from a convenient USB stick. For some > applications DOS is far faster than the pixel-mapped systems. You > don't need a luxurious Mercedes to move a box of chocolates down the > road. Thank you for your comments. FDISKto create an active partition reboot FORMAT C: SYS C: Tom > De : Tom Ehlert > Envoyé : lundi 5 novembre 2018 20:31 > À : Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. > Objet : Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD > >>> Can anyone recommend an IDIOT-proof method of installing FreeDOS 1.2 on >>> a fixed SSD drive (with no OS) via one of several USB ports ? > 1st, a fixed SSD behaves *exactly* like a ((fast) rotating disk. > 2nd, I have no idea how much IDIOT you are, but most likely ANYDOS is not > your best option to go. > 3rd, I don't know if the freedos installation process is > RAYMOND-proof, but it's the best we have to offer. >> I don't have any SSDs, though, > this might be true. >> and you need an OS with "TRIM" support > this is complete BS. (capital letters intentionally). > (TRIM isn't useless, but it's not *needed* in any way) >> It's just that overall DOS (sadly) has less hardware >> support for such modern devices, and FreeDOS is no exception. > SSDs don't need any support that is not already there: they behave > like hard disks. > Tom > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Kind regards Tom Ehlert +49-241-79886 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD
rufus will make a USB or a CF bootable with the PC (which has the fixed SSD). The difficulty is making the fixed SSD bootable. The DOS working files can be copied from a convenient USB stick. For some applications DOS is far faster than the pixel-mapped systems. You don't need a luxurious Mercedes to move a box of chocolates down the road. Thank you for your comments. De : Tom Ehlert Envoyé : lundi 5 novembre 2018 20:31 À : Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS. Objet : Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on SSD >> Can anyone recommend an IDIOT-proof method of installing FreeDOS 1.2 on >> a fixed SSD drive (with no OS) via one of several USB ports ? 1st, a fixed SSD behaves *exactly* like a ((fast) rotating disk. 2nd, I have no idea how much IDIOT you are, but most likely ANYDOS is not your best option to go. 3rd, I don't know if the freedos installation process is RAYMOND-proof, but it's the best we have to offer. > I don't have any SSDs, though, this might be true. > and you need an OS with "TRIM" support this is complete BS. (capital letters intentionally). (TRIM isn't useless, but it's not *needed* in any way) > It's just that overall DOS (sadly) has less hardware > support for such modern devices, and FreeDOS is no exception. SSDs don't need any support that is not already there: they behave like hard disks. Tom ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
