Re: [Freedos-user] DOS ASM resources

[Carlos Teixeira]

What i don't like about A86 is that allows you to do stuff that is actually
"forbidden".

For instance, from what i remember, A86 allows you to do something like:

MOV ES, B800h


This is absolutely not supported by the CPU, and you need to use a general
purpose register to move a value onto a segment register. So the actual A86
assembled code looks like this:

PUSH AX
MOV AX, B800h
MOV ES, AX
POP AX

I believe that it is very important for a begginer to understand how the
ISA works otherwise this will just lead to confusion later.

What i like about FASM is that it is very strict so you learn to do things
properly from the get go. Its raw and gritty so it might be a little more
frustrating at start but you'll really learn things.

A terça, 5/07/2022, 17:51, Anton Shepelev  escreveu:

> Santiago Almenara:
>
> > What book or webpage do you recommend to learn some DOS
> > assembler?
>
> At https://freeshell.de/~antonius/file_host/MSDOSASM.zip
>
> I have some books that you may find of use:
>
>   1.  Advanced MS-DOS Programming, by Ray Duncan
>
>   2.  Programmer's Technical Reference for MSDOS and the IBM
>   PC by Dave Williams,
>
>   3.  The Art of Assembly Language Programming, by James F.
>   Peters
>
>   4.  Peter Norton's Assembly Language Book for the IBM PC
>
> Also I highly recommend Michael Abrash's Black Book of VGA
> programming, which is available in many versions from
> different sources, e.g.:
>
>https://archive.org/details/gpbb20/gpbb0/
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] retro gamer review of FreeDOS 1.3

[Carlos Teixeira]

I use a Pentium MMX as my fastest dedicated PC for DOS and i usually
downclock it to 50MHz FSB x 2. If some games still have issues i can use
SETMUL to manipulate Pentium TR4 registers, which allow to disable
exclusively CPU features like Instruction Cache, Data Cache, Branch
Prediction and V-Pipelining. This helps me get around the specific Runtime
Error 200 cause by Borland Turbo Pascal compiler.

Another common issue is the "Packed File is Corrupt" error. It happens
because binaries compressed by Microsoft's EXEPACK actually uses the wrap
around at the top of 1MB. In real mode CPU's this is never an issue, but on
systems with the A20 gate on and the EXE loaded in the first 64kb of memory
the .EXE will decompress incorrectly leading to that error. Just mentioning
this because some people might mistake it for a problem with FreeDOS.
Curiously, the error reported in Tyrian by the user João seems to have
happened exactly in the first 64kb of memory, though it is not an EXEPACK
error but the infamous Turbo Pascal bug.

I am mostly certain that Tyrian will run fine on FreeDOS 1.3 and i should
be able to test that tomorrow.

On Thu, Mar 10, 2022 at 5:15 PM Bret Johnson  wrote:

> I heard/read somewhere that the "Runtime Error 200" was actually caused
> some sort of subroutine that was trying to figure out how fast the computer
> is.  It's certainly ironic that it doesn't work on really fast computers
> since that's exactly the "problem" it's trying to address.
>
> The other interesting thing about it is that in most programs there is no
> legitimate need to know how fast the computer is (the program is bloated
> and wasting time trying to figure out something it doesn't even need to
> know).  Of course, with some programs (like interactive games) the speed of
> interaction is critical, but those are the exceptions.  A well-written
> program (even an interactive game) wouldn't rely on a specific speed of
> computer, anyway, as long as the computer was some "minimum".
>
> It's also interesting that CPU speeds are pretty much maxed out at a few
> GHz.  For a long time it looked like they were going to be able to keep
> increasing CPU speeds, but they've pretty much reached the physical limits
> of electrical physics.  They've needed to figure out other ways of
> increasing speeds besides creating faster oscillators.
>
> Some of the early attempts were things like pipelining in the CPU
> (performing two CPU instructions at once) and caching, but the most common
> solution nowadays is multiple cores/CPU's.  Of course, that takes special
> programming techniques and lots of complication at both the hardware and
> software level.  They're also experimenting with things like optical and
> quantum computing, and even things like  "three-dimensional" CPU's where
> the different parts of the CPU send signals with back and forth with
> magnetic waves or photons instead of signals running along "wires".
>
> The other interesting thing is that people are still obsessed with speed,
> but sometimes speed is your enemy instead of your friend.  I remember
> talking to a guy one time who used to be in the Air Force and he talked
> about how they still sometimes use prop-driven planes instead of jets
> because the jets are too fast to do the specific job they're trying to
> accomplish.
>
> Anyway, just some passing thoughts.
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] retro gamer review of FreeDOS 1.3

[Carlos Teixeira]

Hi Eric,



> (...) but my goal would still be finding out how
> to make all games work in FreeDOS - if necessary, by pointing out
> bugs in FreeDOS.
>

That's what i wish too. And i'll do my best to help. Because the moment
FreeDOS is better than MS-DOS in compatibility i'll never look back. Hoping
for that day to come soon.



> That said, in case you have Linux (not sure about the porting state
> of DOSEMU2 to Windows or other OS), could you test the games here
> with DOSEMU2 and FDPP? The FDPP module of DOSEMU2 is a port of the
> FreeDOS kernel to the Linux side of the emulator, with some glue on
> the DOS side, so it is a bit hard to compare to classic FreeDOS, but
> it has lots of patches which may have already solved the game issues
> so it would be cool to know how well the tricky games run with that.
>
> FDPP is the default "DOS" for DOSEMU2, but you can still use DOSEMU2
> like a more generic VM or emulator and install classic FreeDOS on it,
> either in a diskimage drive or in a "Linux directory posing as a DOS
> drive". The latter requires loading some special DOS drivers to gain
> write access after boot. In DOSEMU (non-2), some magic was built-in
> to provide more services without manually loading DOS drivers, so that
> just had a normal FreeDOS kernel as default guest operating system.
>

At the moment i don't have a Linux install, but i regarding fdpp i've found
this:

https://www.mail-archive.com/freedos-devel@lists.sourceforge.net/msg12117.html

>From that page notice the following quote:

*many games work better with fdpp than with FreeDOS, says
>   https://github.com/dosemu2/fdpp/releases/tag/beta-9 
> 
>   (Test Drive 2, Tetris Classic, Elite Frontier, Empire
>   Soccer, Virtual Chess, Alone in the Dark, Alpha Waves)*
>
> Whatever was done in fdpp to fix Test Drive 2 will probably solve the
issues for the other DSI games that use the same engine, Grand Prix Circuit
and The Cycles.
DSI games, running on bare metal, go to a black screen and just stay there.
This feels like the games are stuck in an infinite loop, just before
anything is written to the screen (graphics that is). At least, it seems
that the INT 10h call to set the video mode is actually triggered, and
somehow it just stays in some infinite loop afterwards. This needs some
debugging.

It seems though that a few more games are mentioned,*Tetris Classic,
Frontier Elite, Virtual Chess and Empire Soccer. *I'm curious, and i'll be
testing those soon.

Also notice 2 Infogrames games in there, Alone in the Dark and Alpha Waves.
These games apparently:
>
> * 2 of the above games "resize PSP to 0
>   and then terminate it" which apparently MS DOS accepts*
>
>
So MS-DOS accepts something that is completely illegal in FreeDOS. I don't
understand why Infogrames developers would mess their code to resize the
Program Segment Prefix to 0, but since MS-DOS accepts this either they
never bothered or they never noticed. So i guess this can't be considered a
bug in FreeDOS? Or in the sake of compatibility should FreeDOS behave the
same way? What are your thoughts on this?


That surprises me, as a default install of FreeDOS has FAT32 enabled.
> Do those games just refuse to run when the game itself is on a FAT32
> drive? Or do they actually care about whether DOS knows about FAT32?
>

Well Starflight 1 and 2 refuse to run on a FAT32 drive in Win98 DOS, or
MS-DOS 7.1, if you prefer. I would be inclined for the former, but i've
found this:

https://www.oocities.org/timessquare/maze/4979/sfbugs.html

Something to do with locked files and direct disk access. Making a RAM
drive and copying the game folder into that helps, if i run the game from
the RAM drive there's no issue at all. In FreeDOS there's no need for a RAM
disk, the games just run perfectly from the FAT32 install.

Some Tsunami Media games, i also fail to understand what the issue is. In
FAT32 MS-DOS they refuse to run. If i use a FAT16 partition or even a RAM
drive they run fine.


I just grabbed a HDD i have around and limited it for LBA 28bit with Sea
Tools (my socket 7 board has LBA 28 bit limit), so i'm going to install
FreeDOS 1.3 on that and then just copy all the games i have on my main DOS
7.1 machine into the FreeDOS install. It will take me weeks to test
everything (i have more than 1000 games installed) but i want to see if
more stuff refuses to run on FreeDOS, and on the other hand, see if there's
more stuff like Starflight 1 and 2, that has issues in FAT32 MS-DOS but run
fine in Free DOS.


It would be great to make an official comaptibility list:

FreeDOS games that won't run:

- Alone in the Dark 1 and 2 (floppy versions only, CD versions run fine)
- Alpha Waves
- Empire Soccer
- Frontier Elite
- Grand Prix Circuit
- Test Drive 2
- The Cycles
- Tetris Classic
- Virtual Chess


Regards,

Carlos
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Re: [Freedos-user] retro gamer review of FreeDOS 1.3

[Carlos Teixeira]

Why FreeDOS if i can use other MS (and others) versions of DOS? 6.22 should
be the best option but, for a special purpose all rounder DOS computer i'm
using (because i lack the space to use several builds) FAT16B is too
limiting. With this in mind i have 2 options: strip DOS outta Windows 98SE
(or just use the CDU 7.1) or FreeDOS. Both allow FAT32.

Alas, FAT-32 MS-DOS introduces issues of its own with other games.
Starflight 1 and 2 have problems on these installed, and Tsunami Media
games (Man Enough, Return to Ringworld, just to name a few) refuse to run
completely. All these games Run flawlessly on FreeDOS. Considering i
already use several FreeDOS included drivers (CTMouse, mkeyb, HIMEMX, again
just to name a few) there's no reason why i and others can't aspire to use
FreeDOS with better compatibility and usability than the old unmaimtened
and closed source FAT32 DOS or even the older less feature packed 6.22.


So you downloaded some of those games and they ran but had speed issues and
exited with error code. Then you tried your Floppy versions and you report
black screen with no errors (same as others and me included had reported).
And you tested all this between 1.3rc4 and 1.3 live on a VM. Oh... You know
what? There's no point in continuing this discussion with you. The OP made
a thread about a video a retro gamer made testing FreeDOS compatibility
with some games on bare metal. This is just turning mind blowingly non
sequitur between DOSBox and VMs so, seriously, let's just end this.

A terça, 8/03/2022, 19:20, Joao Silva  escreveu:

> First of all i'm not Dude if more Sir or Mr.
> I don't know you and certainly i'm not your friend...
>
> Moving on... downloaded the games mentioned above and using my freedos
> 1.3-RC4 i was able to run Test Drive 2 and Grand Prix and Cycles ran the
> intro fast and exited with a error code.
> Test Drive 2 played and exited with a error.
>
> I grabbed my floppies with the same games (except for cycles) they did not
> run, got a black screen and no error output.
> Runnnig on a VM Freedos 1.3-RC4 and 1.3 Live
>
> And the final question what do you want with Freedos if you have and quote
> "
> I also can use from CP/M-86 to all MS-DOS oficial releases to Windows 98
> stripped FAT32 MS-DOS. PC-DOS, DR-DOS, whatever.
>
> "
>
> They should run games better than Freedos!
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2022 at 8:43 PM Carlos Teixeira 
> wrote:
>
>> Dude... I do have the right hardware from an original IBM XT to a couple
>> Turbo XT clones, to a Tandy 1000 SL that i had to mod for 220V, to a 286,
>> 386, 486 and Pentium MMX.
>>
>> I also can use from CP/M-86 to all MS-DOS oficial releases to Windows 98
>> stripped FAT32 MS-DOS. PC-DOS, DR-DOS, whatever. No point in discussing
>> DOSBox. The point here is:
>>
>> FreeDOS and its ability to run DOS games. In the case of DSI games,
>> there's something specific to the game engine that prevents those games
>> from running, GP Circuit, The Cycles and Test Drive 2. I've had no chance
>> yet but a good thing try might be running a debugger and checking if the
>> code might be stuck in an infinite loop.
>>
>> Planet X3, for instance, despite being programmed for XT class machines
>> that usually use MS-DOS 3.3, had a bug in which the game was stuck in an
>> infinite loop while printing a string just before exiting to DOS. So i took
>> a look into the code and what happened is that INT 29 might trash BX
>> completely which was actually used to point to memory and fetch the
>> characters for the string. BX gets completely trashed so the string never
>> finished and just printed crap on the screen. An isolated problem on a
>> specific version of DOS.
>>
>> This might be what is happening with the DSI games, or might be something
>> entirely different, but the fact that every game that uses the same engine
>> fails to run on FDOS makes it quite obvious that fixing just one of these
>> games will probably fix the rest. This is what we should focus on.
>>
>> A segunda, 7/03/2022, 13:04, Joao Silva  escreveu:
>>
>>> Hello!
>>>
>>> Not perfectly... for that you need the right hardware for the game to
>>> run, ms-dos 6.22 or pc-dos 7.0/7.1 and i'm assuming that you don't have
>>> either conditions.
>>>
>>> So dosbox will run most games, you can check the compatibility list
>>> https://www.dosbox.com/comp_list.php?letter=a  and fine tune the cpu
>>> speed on dosbox.
>>>
>>> You  can also check dosbox-x with more features.
>>>
>>> You can also check this page for game clones and/or remakes
>>> https://osgameclones.com/, some require comp

Re: [Freedos-user] retro gamer review of FreeDOS 1.3

[Carlos Teixeira]

Dude... I do have the right hardware from an original IBM XT to a couple
Turbo XT clones, to a Tandy 1000 SL that i had to mod for 220V, to a 286,
386, 486 and Pentium MMX.

I also can use from CP/M-86 to all MS-DOS oficial releases to Windows 98
stripped FAT32 MS-DOS. PC-DOS, DR-DOS, whatever. No point in discussing
DOSBox. The point here is:

FreeDOS and its ability to run DOS games. In the case of DSI games, there's
something specific to the game engine that prevents those games from
running, GP Circuit, The Cycles and Test Drive 2. I've had no chance yet
but a good thing try might be running a debugger and checking if the code
might be stuck in an infinite loop.

Planet X3, for instance, despite being programmed for XT class machines
that usually use MS-DOS 3.3, had a bug in which the game was stuck in an
infinite loop while printing a string just before exiting to DOS. So i took
a look into the code and what happened is that INT 29 might trash BX
completely which was actually used to point to memory and fetch the
characters for the string. BX gets completely trashed so the string never
finished and just printed crap on the screen. An isolated problem on a
specific version of DOS.

This might be what is happening with the DSI games, or might be something
entirely different, but the fact that every game that uses the same engine
fails to run on FDOS makes it quite obvious that fixing just one of these
games will probably fix the rest. This is what we should focus on.

A segunda, 7/03/2022, 13:04, Joao Silva  escreveu:

> Hello!
>
> Not perfectly... for that you need the right hardware for the game to run,
> ms-dos 6.22 or pc-dos 7.0/7.1 and i'm assuming that you don't have either
> conditions.
>
> So dosbox will run most games, you can check the compatibility list
> https://www.dosbox.com/comp_list.php?letter=a  and fine tune the cpu
> speed on dosbox.
>
> You  can also check dosbox-x with more features.
>
> You can also check this page for game clones and/or remakes
> https://osgameclones.com/, some require compiling the source code.
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Re: [Freedos-user] retro gamer review of FreeDOS 1.3

[Carlos Teixeira]

Not only DOSBox is not the solution for everything (does not run every game
perfectly), there would be no point in keep developing FreeDOS if indeed
"DOSBox was the solution for all problems".





A domingo, 6/03/2022, 17:44, Joao Silva  escreveu:

> Hello.
>
> Dosbox will solve all your problems!
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2022 at 11:04 PM Carlos Teixeira 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Eric,
>>
>> all DSI games that use that same engine, Grand Prix Circuit, The Cycles,
>> Test Drive 2 have that issue. You launch the games and you just get a black
>> screen. I commented on the video comment section days before it premiered
>> that he should test Grand Prix Circuit and Test Drive 2 as i was sure those
>> would fail. Somehow my comment is not there anymore, but i'm glad that he
>> did test them.
>>
>> There's also the floppy versions of Alone in the Dark 1 and Alone in the
>> Dark 2:
>>
>> https://github.com/dosemu2/fdpp/issues/107
>>
>> It's something about corrupted PSP's that somehow do not crash on MS-DOS
>> but crash on FreeDOS. So these Alone in the Dark games might need to be
>> patched to work on FreeDOS.
>>
>>
>>
>> A sexta, 4/03/2022, 20:56, Eric Auer  escreveu:
>>
>>>
>>> Let me summarize this ;-)
>>>
>>> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNeq-F84Lx4
>>>
>>>   - Lots of games had CD driver issues in FreeDOS 1.2 and are fine now
>>>
>>>   - Grand Prix Circuit and Test Drive 2 still do not run
>>>
>>>   - most games work best in boot option TWO, which is a sane JEMMEX
>>> config. I guess the default is option ONE, insane JEMMEX tuning? ;-)
>>>
>>>   - Wing Commander needs JEMM386 instead, I have no idea why?
>>>
>>>   - some games do not like any EMM386, of course
>>>
>>>   - the video mentions zero games not liking HIMEM, I think?
>>>
>>>   - it sounds like a very bad idea to create a zillion FAT16 partitions
>>> and format only one of them, while using FreeDOS FDISK etc. by hand
>>> made it easy for the reviewer to just create ONE FAT32 drive :-p
>>>
>>>   - one of the installers took 20 minutes, but the legacy one was fast?
>>>
>>>   - lots of youtube viewers ask whether Windows WfW 3.11 is supported
>>> and I bet they mean 386enh mode (in WfW 3.11, non-386enh is just
>>> left as a sort of safe mode, while in Windows 3.x, standard mode
>>> was still relatively useful for those not supporting 386enh mode)
>>>
>>> Maybe somebody can tell me what is going on with GP Circuit and with
>>> TD2 in FreeDOS? Do we know which compatibility problems they trigger?
>>>
>>> Have any recent kernel updates made WfW 3.11 work in a less convoluted
>>> way in FreeDOS and if yes, which specific tricks are needed to run it?
>>>
>>> I remember you had to disable windows disk drivers to let it use DOS
>>> and/or BIOS instead if your disk is non-tiny? And you had to limit
>>> the size of visible RAM if you had too much of it? HIMEM etc. have
>>> special options for that and you can also tune various things in Win3
>>> configuration files, such as the swap address space ratio etc. There
>>> also was a FreeDOS tech note long ago, I believe.
>>>
>>> Regards, Eric
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [Freedos-user] retro gamer review of FreeDOS 1.3

[Carlos Teixeira]

Hi Eric,

all DSI games that use that same engine, Grand Prix Circuit, The Cycles,
Test Drive 2 have that issue. You launch the games and you just get a black
screen. I commented on the video comment section days before it premiered
that he should test Grand Prix Circuit and Test Drive 2 as i was sure those
would fail. Somehow my comment is not there anymore, but i'm glad that he
did test them.

There's also the floppy versions of Alone in the Dark 1 and Alone in the
Dark 2:

https://github.com/dosemu2/fdpp/issues/107

It's something about corrupted PSP's that somehow do not crash on MS-DOS
but crash on FreeDOS. So these Alone in the Dark games might need to be
patched to work on FreeDOS.



A sexta, 4/03/2022, 20:56, Eric Auer  escreveu:

>
> Let me summarize this ;-)
>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNeq-F84Lx4
>
>   - Lots of games had CD driver issues in FreeDOS 1.2 and are fine now
>
>   - Grand Prix Circuit and Test Drive 2 still do not run
>
>   - most games work best in boot option TWO, which is a sane JEMMEX
> config. I guess the default is option ONE, insane JEMMEX tuning? ;-)
>
>   - Wing Commander needs JEMM386 instead, I have no idea why?
>
>   - some games do not like any EMM386, of course
>
>   - the video mentions zero games not liking HIMEM, I think?
>
>   - it sounds like a very bad idea to create a zillion FAT16 partitions
> and format only one of them, while using FreeDOS FDISK etc. by hand
> made it easy for the reviewer to just create ONE FAT32 drive :-p
>
>   - one of the installers took 20 minutes, but the legacy one was fast?
>
>   - lots of youtube viewers ask whether Windows WfW 3.11 is supported
> and I bet they mean 386enh mode (in WfW 3.11, non-386enh is just
> left as a sort of safe mode, while in Windows 3.x, standard mode
> was still relatively useful for those not supporting 386enh mode)
>
> Maybe somebody can tell me what is going on with GP Circuit and with
> TD2 in FreeDOS? Do we know which compatibility problems they trigger?
>
> Have any recent kernel updates made WfW 3.11 work in a less convoluted
> way in FreeDOS and if yes, which specific tricks are needed to run it?
>
> I remember you had to disable windows disk drivers to let it use DOS
> and/or BIOS instead if your disk is non-tiny? And you had to limit
> the size of visible RAM if you had too much of it? HIMEM etc. have
> special options for that and you can also tune various things in Win3
> configuration files, such as the swap address space ratio etc. There
> also was a FreeDOS tech note long ago, I believe.
>
> Regards, Eric
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS game compatibility mass testing results/questions

[Carlos Teixeira]

Hi.

I urge everyone to try the Floppy version of Alone in the Dark. Game does
not run on FreeDOS.

While investigating i came up to a discussion on dosemu2/fdpp that mentions
that games like Alone in the Dark and Alpha Waves corrupt and resize the
PSP. Somehow MS-DOS versions don't have a problem with this but FreeDOS
does.

Also, some Distinctive Software games (DSI) that use the same engine (Grand
Prix Circuit, The Cycles, Test Drive 2) also don't run. All you get is a
flashing cursor like the game code is stuck on an infinite loop and can't
move any forward.

I really hope that game compatibilty improves in FreeDOS, so that i can
finally put MS-DOS behind.

A sábado, 20/11/2021, 19:34, Joao Silva  escreveu:

> Hello.
>
> Today the problem is that not everyone have old hardware, so they use what
> they have, new hardware or virtual machines.
> I stil have my first pc IBM 286 with msdos 4.0, but i think i installed 5
> or 6, can't remember.
> I installed freedos on a asus eeepc, runs well, but with no sound.
> Eventually, i will do something that i don't want, replace freedos with
> linux to play dos games with dosbox (stag or X) so i can have sound.
> The downside of dosbox is that i can't use gametools because i don't have
> int13 to do breakpoints.
>
> I like DOS and it's sad that Microsoft and IBM sent him to trash.
> Best boot times...
>
> Thank you
>
> On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 4:56 PM Jim Hall  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 4:38 AM ZB  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 11:13:45AM +0100, Eric Auer wrote:
>>>
>>> > Hi! There is a thread about freedos game compatibility on BTTR,
>>> > started by liljames2k:
>>> >
>>> > https://www.bttr-software.de/forum/forum_entry.php?id=18483
>>>
>> [..]
>>
>>> 1. Any attempt to run any old game -- if you mean "testing FreeDOS
>>>  compatibility" -- should be done on "legacy hardware". For simplicity
>>>  let's say "the motherboard should feature at least one ISA slot". If you
>>>  mean testing sound: it should be done using ISA soundcard, inserted
>>> exactly
>>>  in that (single?) ISA slot.
>>>
>>> If anyone is using newer hardware -- e.g. PCI-only -- you'll never 100%
>>>  know "is it FreeDOS or hardware-related issue".
>>>
>>
>>
>> I think that's a very narrow view. The reality is that a lot of the
>> "classic" (say, '486 or earlier) hardware is hard to find - at least in
>> working condition. And dedicating an entire machine to FreeDOS . So most
>> people run FreeDOS on modern hardware (if they dedicate hardware to it at
>> all) or in a virtual machine (more common).
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