Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 at 23:30, Rugxulo wrote: > > You can install DOS without any .ISO, though. Granted, that will be > very minimal, so you'll need to copy files manually later. But, > strictly speaking, it comes with a FreeDOS kernel and shell, so you > can install FreeDOS without downloading the whole live .ISO. It can > also (or used to, at least) use the "system disk" of MS-DOS from > Windows' DISKCOPY.DLL. So again, no .ISO needed (assuming you still > have a working BIOS that can actually run DOS). Sure, yes. Or from a USB floppy drive if you have one. But nothing much bigger than DOS will fit onto a floppy. > But yes, generally it's useful for putting Linux .ISOs on a USB > bootable jump drive for live testing. I _think_ I have tested Rufus on a Linux ISO and it worked, but I find other tools generally *much* quicker. There's always a tradeoff. Rufus is tiny and doesn't even need to be installed, but it is slow to run: quick download, slow operation. Etcher is huge, but writes fast: slow download, fast operation. There are many others, too: https://www.tecmint.com/linux-bootable-usb-creators/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
Hi, On Sun, Mar 19, 2023 at 11:22 AM Liam Proven wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 18:12, Aitor Santamaría wrote: > > > > To those that have used/experience with RUFUS: what is the concept behind > > it? > > Simple answer: > > Rufus is a Windows tool for making bootable USB keys from ISO images. You can install DOS without any .ISO, though. Granted, that will be very minimal, so you'll need to copy files manually later. But, strictly speaking, it comes with a FreeDOS kernel and shell, so you can install FreeDOS without downloading the whole live .ISO. It can also (or used to, at least) use the "system disk" of MS-DOS from Windows' DISKCOPY.DLL. So again, no .ISO needed (assuming you still have a working BIOS that can actually run DOS). But yes, generally it's useful for putting Linux .ISOs on a USB bootable jump drive for live testing. ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 at 22:45, Aitor Santamaría wrote: > > Thanks, Liam. > > I was looking for the complicated one. :) Please bottom-post on mailing lists. In Gmail, as I am now, press Ctrl-A to select all, then trim and type your answer below. I like Rufus and it's a handy tool around, but Ventoy is much quicker and easier and far more versatile. https://www.ventoy.net/en/index.html There's no point in using Rufus for non-Windows images. Balena Etcher is just as easy, also free, does the job fine, and runs identically on Windows, Linux and macOS. https://www.balena.io/etcher (It's bloated, huge, because it's an Electron app: written in Javascript and containing most of a copy of Chrome inside the app in order to run the JS. A disk image writer can be done in hundreds of kilobytes, but Etcher is hundreds of megabytes: 1000x as big. But that is computing in 2023 for you. :-( It's why I like DOS. ;-) -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
Thanks, Liam. I was looking for the complicated one. :) Aitor On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 at 17:22, Liam Proven wrote: > On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 18:12, Aitor Santamaría wrote: > > > > To those that have used/experience with RUFUS: what is the concept > behind it? > > Um. I am not sure I understand the question. Either it is a very very > simple question, or a very complicated one. > > Simple answer: > > Rufus is a Windows tool for making bootable USB keys from ISO images. > > Complicated answer: > > An "ISO" is a file containing an image of an optical disk (typically a > CD or a DVD). They are so named because the standard cross platform > on-disk format for optical media is ISO standard 9660, or ISO9660 for > short. DOS and DOS-based OSes couldn't support a 7-character file > extension when the format was ratified. > > To make a bootable USB, you need to write a bootloader onto a USB key > followed by the payload of the OS to be booted. Linux and other non-MS > OSes usually include this bootloader in the disk image, so you can > just bit-copy the ISO file to the raw USB device and it will boot. > > (This is partly because they use non-FAT-like filesystems so they put > a disk image of their native filesystem in the disk image, and a > bootloader). > > Windows ISOs won't, or not always, so you need a tool to install that > bootloader and then unpack the OS files into an ISO9660 like FS with > long filename extensions. Because the ISO9660 format is close enough > to a Windows format, the boot disk doesn't need the fancy virtual > filesystem stuff, so paradoxically the disk writing tools need to be > smarter because they need to do _more_ work. > > Rufus is a free tool to do this. It is good and reliably makes > bootable USB keys from Windows ISOs, which Linux tools can't always do > in my quite extensive experience. However, you need a running Windows > system _first_ so it poses a chicken-and-egg problem. To install > Windows you need Windows to make the boot media to load Windows. > Secondly, Rufus is very _very_ slow. It takes an hour or so. Linux > takes 5min to write a typical size of disk image. > > I regard it as obsolete since I discovered Ventoy. Ventoy does the > bootup logic internally, so just format a key with Ventoy and copy ISO > files onto it and it generates a boot menu on the fly and boots DOS or > Linux or Windows or whatever for you. > > Ventoy is great and a huge time saver and it just works, so I don't > usually use Rufus any more. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023 at 18:12, Aitor Santamaría wrote: > > To those that have used/experience with RUFUS: what is the concept behind it? Um. I am not sure I understand the question. Either it is a very very simple question, or a very complicated one. Simple answer: Rufus is a Windows tool for making bootable USB keys from ISO images. Complicated answer: An "ISO" is a file containing an image of an optical disk (typically a CD or a DVD). They are so named because the standard cross platform on-disk format for optical media is ISO standard 9660, or ISO9660 for short. DOS and DOS-based OSes couldn't support a 7-character file extension when the format was ratified. To make a bootable USB, you need to write a bootloader onto a USB key followed by the payload of the OS to be booted. Linux and other non-MS OSes usually include this bootloader in the disk image, so you can just bit-copy the ISO file to the raw USB device and it will boot. (This is partly because they use non-FAT-like filesystems so they put a disk image of their native filesystem in the disk image, and a bootloader). Windows ISOs won't, or not always, so you need a tool to install that bootloader and then unpack the OS files into an ISO9660 like FS with long filename extensions. Because the ISO9660 format is close enough to a Windows format, the boot disk doesn't need the fancy virtual filesystem stuff, so paradoxically the disk writing tools need to be smarter because they need to do _more_ work. Rufus is a free tool to do this. It is good and reliably makes bootable USB keys from Windows ISOs, which Linux tools can't always do in my quite extensive experience. However, you need a running Windows system _first_ so it poses a chicken-and-egg problem. To install Windows you need Windows to make the boot media to load Windows. Secondly, Rufus is very _very_ slow. It takes an hour or so. Linux takes 5min to write a typical size of disk image. I regard it as obsolete since I discovered Ventoy. Ventoy does the bootup logic internally, so just format a key with Ventoy and copy ISO files onto it and it generates a boot menu on the fly and boots DOS or Linux or Windows or whatever for you. Ventoy is great and a huge time saver and it just works, so I don't usually use Rufus any more. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
Thanks for the explanation, Jeremy. Perhaps I was looking for a more technical discussion than the average user, but your mail was exactly what I was looking for. Aitor On Sun, 19 Mar 2023 at 00:48, Kenneth Davis wrote: > On Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 2:11 PM Aitor Santamaría wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> To those that have used/experience with RUFUS: what is the concept behind >> it? >> I don't get a clear picture of how this software operates, either reading >> the site or the wikipedia: >> >> It makes "bootable USB" and supports "a variety of ISO", so >> (a) does it make truly bootable drives, like "SYS D:", where the drive >> gets a OS file (rewritable) distribution, after transferring the files to >> the drive (mimicking a INSTALL)? >> > > kinda, yes > > (b) copies the ISO into the drive, and somehow mounts the ISO file and >> boots from there, thereby creating a read-only in memory drive? >> > > no, during creation it reads the files from image and copies them to the > writable FAT or NTFS formatted disk. Similar to if you formatted and SYS > drive, then mount CD image, copy files to disk. Unless it is in dd mode, > then it's more of a disk image sector by sector copy to the USB drive - > this allows filesystems on the drive that Windows does not read or write to > but requires the image already be setup to be bootable from a USB disk. > > (c) ... >> >> Thanks in advance, >> Aitor >> >> __ >> > > Rufus can be used as a dd or rawrite tool for Windows to USB drives. It > can also convert isolinux based CD images to boot from USB while keeping > their options intact. There are some special handling for creating Windows > install media. And to bring it back to FreeDOS, it includes latest FreeDOS > kernel and command.com from FreeDOS distribution enabling creating DOS > bootable USB disks easily. I use it and will copy over latest kernel build > to boot on real hardware. > > Basically you start it, select either FreeDOS or an ISO image, the USB > drive you want to make bootable, it clears/creates the partition table, > formats the drive, writes boot sector, copies all the files over, replaces > isolinux with syslinux and voila bootable disk. Or it works like > rawriye/dd and copies image file directly to disk but then the image must > already include boot sector to work. There are some safety checks so you > don't overwrite non-removable drives and lots of other details I am > glossing over. The author is very approachable and patient with users and > does an excellent job developing it (its open source so easy to follow its > development). > > Jeremy > >> ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
On Sat, Mar 18, 2023, 2:11 PM Aitor Santamaría wrote: > Hello, > > To those that have used/experience with RUFUS: what is the concept behind > it? > I don't get a clear picture of how this software operates, either reading > the site or the wikipedia: > > It makes "bootable USB" and supports "a variety of ISO", so > (a) does it make truly bootable drives, like "SYS D:", where the drive > gets a OS file (rewritable) distribution, after transferring the files to > the drive (mimicking a INSTALL)? > kinda, yes (b) copies the ISO into the drive, and somehow mounts the ISO file and > boots from there, thereby creating a read-only in memory drive? > no, during creation it reads the files from image and copies them to the writable FAT or NTFS formatted disk. Similar to if you formatted and SYS drive, then mount CD image, copy files to disk. Unless it is in dd mode, then it's more of a disk image sector by sector copy to the USB drive - this allows filesystems on the drive that Windows does not read or write to but requires the image already be setup to be bootable from a USB disk. (c) ... > > Thanks in advance, > Aitor > > __ > Rufus can be used as a dd or rawrite tool for Windows to USB drives. It can also convert isolinux based CD images to boot from USB while keeping their options intact. There are some special handling for creating Windows install media. And to bring it back to FreeDOS, it includes latest FreeDOS kernel and command.com from FreeDOS distribution enabling creating DOS bootable USB disks easily. I use it and will copy over latest kernel build to boot on real hardware. Basically you start it, select either FreeDOS or an ISO image, the USB drive you want to make bootable, it clears/creates the partition table, formats the drive, writes boot sector, copies all the files over, replaces isolinux with syslinux and voila bootable disk. Or it works like rawriye/dd and copies image file directly to disk but then the image must already include boot sector to work. There are some safety checks so you don't overwrite non-removable drives and lots of other details I am glossing over. The author is very approachable and patient with users and does an excellent job developing it (its open source so easy to follow its development). Jeremy > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
Hi, RUFUS is basically dd for Windows babies. Best regards, Michał W dniu 18.03.2023 o 19:10, Aitor Santamaría pisze: Hello, To those that have used/experience with RUFUS: what is the concept behind it? I don't get a clear picture of how this software operates, either reading the site or the wikipedia: It makes "bootable USB" and supports "a variety of ISO", so (a) does it make truly bootable drives, like "SYS D:", where the drive gets a OS file (rewritable) distribution, after transferring the files to the drive (mimicking a INSTALL)? (b) copies the ISO into the drive, and somehow mounts the ISO file and boots from there, thereby creating a read-only in memory drive? (c) ... Thanks in advance, Aitor ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
Re: [Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
Hi, Since this is a FreeDOS group, I'm going to assume this is the operating system you want to boot. I believe that you can create a working FreeDOS installation on USB, however I can't test it this evening, as I am busy doing other testing, of an alcohol based nature! I'd say give it a go. What's the worse that can happen? On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, 18:12 Aitor Santamaría, wrote: > Hello, > > To those that have used/experience with RUFUS: what is the concept behind > it? > I don't get a clear picture of how this software operates, either reading > the site or the wikipedia: > > It makes "bootable USB" and supports "a variety of ISO", so > (a) does it make truly bootable drives, like "SYS D:", where the drive > gets a OS file (rewritable) distribution, after transferring the files to > the drive (mimicking a INSTALL)? > (b) copies the ISO into the drive, and somehow mounts the ISO file and > boots from there, thereby creating a read-only in memory drive? > (c) ... > > Thanks in advance, > Aitor > > ___ > Freedos-user mailing list > Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user > ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
[Freedos-user] Concept behind RUFUS
Hello, To those that have used/experience with RUFUS: what is the concept behind it? I don't get a clear picture of how this software operates, either reading the site or the wikipedia: It makes "bootable USB" and supports "a variety of ISO", so (a) does it make truly bootable drives, like "SYS D:", where the drive gets a OS file (rewritable) distribution, after transferring the files to the drive (mimicking a INSTALL)? (b) copies the ISO into the drive, and somehow mounts the ISO file and boots from there, thereby creating a read-only in memory drive? (c) ... Thanks in advance, Aitor ___ Freedos-user mailing list Freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/freedos-user
