Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[G.W. Haywood via Freedos-user]

Hi there,

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, Liam Proven via Freedos-user wrote:

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 at 23:45, G.W. Haywood via Freedos-user wrote:


... DOS introduced the idea of packaged software to the world


I'd argue that was CP/M in the previous decade (the 1970s). ...


You have a point, although I'd suggest that CP/M introduced it only to
a select few - not to the whole world. :)

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Ged.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Liam Proven via Freedos-user]

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 at 23:45, G.W. Haywood via Freedos-user
 wrote:
>
> What would be the point?  DOS introduced the idea of packaged software
> to the world

I'd argue that was CP/M in the previous decade (the 1970s). I own
packaged CP/M software, bought used (I am old but not that old) but it
was off-the-shelf once.

> without that packaged software, DOS is more or less
> useless.

True!

>  Even if one day some version of DOS does run directly on ARM,
> none of the packaged software ever will.

This is true.

For fairness I should mention the closest thing to a non-x86 DOS:
Atari GEMDOS on the Atari ST family.

GEMDOS was a very basic single-user OS based on CP/M-68K and what
would later become DR-DOS. However it shipped without a command line
interpreter because the machines had the GEM GUI in ROM, and were
GUI-only.

There is a modern FOSS re-implementation, called EmuTOS.

https://emutos.sourceforge.io/

It's worth saying, though, that CP/M-68K was a bit of a commercial
flop, as were other non-8080 (or maybe more to the point non-Z80)
forms of CP/M (CP/M-86, CP/M-8000) -- because as you say no existing
apps worked.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Louis Santillan via Freedos-user]

DM&P who make the Vortex86 CPUs, chipsets, SOMs, and some of the other
designs are Taiwanese.  PCBWay is Chinese but the weeCee designs are on
github.  If you have another way of printing the PCBs, you're not
restricted to PCBWay.  Over the last 15 years, there's been several
DM&P/Vortex86 based designs of small computers, thin clients, laptops.

https://www.vortex86.com/
https://shop.dmp.com.tw/INT/products-516
https://shop.dmp.com.tw/INT/products-517
https://shop.dmp.com.tw/INT/products-518
https://shop.dmp.com.tw/INT/products-519
https://github.com/rasteri/weeCee

On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 8:24 PM Roger via Freedos-user <
freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net> wrote:

> > On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 02:19:51PM +0200, Eric Auer via Freedos-user
> wrote:
> >
> >Hi Michał,
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >>  > I'm still looking for an inexpensive X86 type SBC that can be used to
> >> build a dos only machine.
> >>
> >> I have one word for you - weeCee.
> >
> >This is interesting, sort of a DIY designed device:
> >
> >
> https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/weeCee___Tiny_DOS_Gaming_PC.html
> >
> >https://circuitmaker.com/Projects/Details/rasteri/weeCee
> >
>
> Yup.  I like it.  However, has a China origin.
>
> Also Firefox Internet browser failed rendering the cost of the sale
> price of the completed PCB, along with requiring a login for using the
> cart and purchasing.
>
> >> ...perhaps the smallest MSDOS gaming PC ever made that doesn't use
> emulation.
> >>
> >> It is based around an ICOP Vortex86 CPU module, which is a
> >> pentium-class x86-compatible embedded system-on-module that is
> >> intended for industrial control. However the module also works great
> >> for DOS gaming, as it includes a highly-compatible VGA graphics chip.
> >>
> >>
> >> To this I also added a Soundblaster Pro-compatible sound chip from
> >> Crystal Semiconductor, which is still available new-old-stock...
> >PCBWAY sells you either the empty circuit board or the
> >complete board. Similar to Raspberry Pi, no housing is
> >included, as you buy that separately.
> >
> >Are there other vendors offering complete weeCee sets?
> >
> >Best regards, Eric
>
> A quick Google search showed an Ebay.com seller, of Czech origin,
> selling a WeeCee for ~$400-440.
>
> ... expensive.
>
>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Roger via Freedos-user]

> On Sun, Oct 20, 2024 at 02:19:51PM +0200, Eric Auer via Freedos-user wrote:
>
>Hi Michał,
>
>> Hi,
>> 
>>  > I'm still looking for an inexpensive X86 type SBC that can be used to
>> build a dos only machine.
>> 
>> I have one word for you - weeCee.
>
>This is interesting, sort of a DIY designed device:
>
>https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/weeCee___Tiny_DOS_Gaming_PC.html
>
>https://circuitmaker.com/Projects/Details/rasteri/weeCee
>

Yup.  I like it.  However, has a China origin.

Also Firefox Internet browser failed rendering the cost of the sale
price of the completed PCB, along with requiring a login for using the
cart and purchasing.

>> ...perhaps the smallest MSDOS gaming PC ever made that doesn't use emulation.
>> 
>> It is based around an ICOP Vortex86 CPU module, which is a
>> pentium-class x86-compatible embedded system-on-module that is
>> intended for industrial control. However the module also works great
>> for DOS gaming, as it includes a highly-compatible VGA graphics chip.
>> 
>> 
>> To this I also added a Soundblaster Pro-compatible sound chip from
>> Crystal Semiconductor, which is still available new-old-stock...
>PCBWAY sells you either the empty circuit board or the
>complete board. Similar to Raspberry Pi, no housing is
>included, as you buy that separately.
>
>Are there other vendors offering complete weeCee sets?
>
>Best regards, Eric

A quick Google search showed an Ebay.com seller, of Czech origin,
selling a WeeCee for ~$400-440.

... expensive.



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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi Michał,


Hi,

 > I'm still looking for an inexpensive X86 type SBC that can be used to 
build a dos only machine.


I have one word for you - weeCee.


This is interesting, sort of a DIY designed device:

https://www.pcbway.com/project/shareproject/weeCee___Tiny_DOS_Gaming_PC.html

https://circuitmaker.com/Projects/Details/rasteri/weeCee


...perhaps the smallest MSDOS gaming PC ever made that doesn't use emulation.

It is based around an ICOP Vortex86 CPU module, which is a
pentium-class x86-compatible embedded system-on-module that is
intended for industrial control. However the module also works great
for DOS gaming, as it includes a highly-compatible VGA graphics chip.


To this I also added a Soundblaster Pro-compatible sound chip from
Crystal Semiconductor, which is still available new-old-stock...

PCBWAY sells you either the empty circuit board or the
complete board. Similar to Raspberry Pi, no housing is
included, as you buy that separately.

Are there other vendors offering complete weeCee sets?

Best regards, Eric


Best regards,

Michał Dec






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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Mateusz Viste via Freedos-user]

On 18/10/2024 21:43, tsie...@softcon.com wrote:
Won't work.  Dos itself uses a *lot* of interrupt calls to do things. 
The raspberry pies run processors that don't support interrupts. 
Therefore, porting a stand-alone version of dos to the pie just won't work.


That's not really what I meant, and it wasn't also Eric's idea (which he 
clarified in the meantime). A RPi-looking-like-DOS would necessarily 
include emulation, obviously.


I'm still looking 
for an inexpensive X86 type SBC that can be used to build a dos only 
machine.  That would be awesome, but inexpensive doesn't seem to be a 
buzzword when it comes to x86 compatible single board computers


I do not understand the need of such thing. A hardware-compatible PC has 
the advantage that it can be fitted with standard ISA cards and 
peripherals. That's not the case of an SBC, so what difference does it 
make that the system is emulated, if it behaves like the real thing? You 
could just as well use 86box on a RPi, paint the whole thing black and 
call it a "x86 SBC". For all practical purposes, it would be 
indistinguishable (ok, boot time would be somewhat longer).


Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Michał Dec via Freedos-user]

Hi,

> I'm still looking for an inexpensive X86 type SBC that can be used to 
build a dos only machine.


I have one word for you - weeCee.

Best regards,

Michał Dec

W dniu 19.10.2024 o 21:37, Mateusz Viste via Freedos-user pisze:

On 18/10/2024 21:43, tsie...@softcon.com wrote:
Won't work.  Dos itself uses a *lot* of interrupt calls to do things. 
The raspberry pies run processors that don't support interrupts. 
Therefore, porting a stand-alone version of dos to the pie just won't 
work.


That's not really what I meant, and it wasn't also Eric's idea (which 
he clarified in the meantime). A RPi-looking-like-DOS would 
necessarily include emulation, obviously.


I'm still looking for an inexpensive X86 type SBC that can be used to 
build a dos only machine.  That would be awesome, but inexpensive 
doesn't seem to be a buzzword when it comes to x86 compatible single 
board computers


I do not understand the need of such thing. A hardware-compatible PC 
has the advantage that it can be fitted with standard ISA cards and 
peripherals. That's not the case of an SBC, so what difference does it 
make that the system is emulated, if it behaves like the real thing? 
You could just as well use 86box on a RPi, paint the whole thing black 
and call it a "x86 SBC". For all practical purposes, it would be 
indistinguishable (ok, boot time would be somewhat longer).


Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[G.W. Haywood via Freedos-user]

Hi there,

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024, Liam Proven via Freedos-user wrote:


... DOS is deeply tied to the x86-16 CPU model, with some x86-32
extensions. It is not meaningfully possible to create anything
usefully like DOS for an Arm chip.


What would be the point?  DOS introduced the idea of packaged software
to the world, and, without that packaged software, DOS is more or less
useless.  Even if one day some version of DOS does run directly on ARM,
none of the packaged software ever will.

--

73,
Ged.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Sabina Zelená . via Freedos-user]

‎Greetings,yes,some x86 SBCs allow to install standard ISA(&/or PCI) 
cards,generally those using backplanes,i have 3 such SBCs,for 1 of them I miss 
the backplane,& it has damaged plastic holders for SDRAM modules & CMOS battery 
is missing,i saved all 3 from scrapping,they r Rocky P258 & P247 or 248 or so 
brands,the latter I have 2 pcs of it,the damaged 1 could be released from my 
collection,if some1 feels to be able to fix those SDRAM slot holders,i can gift 
it,but U will have to pay for shipping(or visit me),they r P2 Slot 1 
Machines,pure x86,integrated VGA,IDE,FDC,PS/2,COM,LPT,but U have to find a 
backplane elsewhere,or do it Yourself,not tested,as I cannot fix those memory 
slots,& it also has DoC slot.
If interested,reply.
Sent from my BlackBerry Passport.
With regards Sabina Zelená[=Green].
LIVE LONG & PROSPER,live & let live=DO NOT EAT,NOR WEAR ANIMALS,nor do not pay 
Their Murderers & oppressors,please.
Shalom/Peace/Shanti/Mier/Nyugalom.
...
  Original Message  
From: Mateusz Viste via Freedos-user.‎
Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2024 21:56.‎
To: Discussion and general questions about FreeDOS.
Cc: Mateusz Viste
Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

On 18/10/2024 21:43, tsie...@softcon.com wrote:
> Won't work.  Dos itself uses a *lot* of interrupt calls to do things. 
> The raspberry pies run processors that don't support interrupts. 
> Therefore, porting a stand-alone version of dos to the pie just won't work.

That's not really what I meant, and it wasn't also Eric's idea (which he 
clarified in the meantime). A RPi-looking-like-DOS would necessarily 
include emulation, obviously.

> I'm still looking 
> for an inexpensive X86 type SBC that can be used to build a dos only
> machine.  That would be awesome, but inexpensive doesn't seem to be a 
> buzzword when it comes to x86 compatible single board computers

I do not understand the need of such thing. A hardware-compatible PC has 
the advantage that it can be fitted with standard ISA cards and 
peripherals. That's not the case of an SBC, so what difference does it 
make that the system is emulated, if it behaves like the real thing? You 
could just as well use 86box on a RPi, paint the whole thing black and 
call it a "x86 SBC". For all practical purposes, it would be 
indistinguishable (ok, boot time would be somewhat longer).

Mateusz


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Liam Proven via Freedos-user]

On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 at 21:24, tsiegel--- via Freedos-user
 wrote:

> Won't work.  Dos itself uses a *lot* of interrupt calls to do things.

Er, kinda sorta, ish, but this is not a useful statement in any way I
can interpret. It's a bit like saying, er, "boats use a *lot* of
propellers so you can't make a boat without a propeller!" To which I'd
say: canoe.

> The raspberry pies run processors that don't support interrupts.

That bears no resemblance to any form of truth, no.

> Therefore, porting a stand-alone version of dos to the pie just won't work.

That is true but not for why you say. The Raspberry Pi is an Arm
device. DOS is deeply tied to the x86-16 CPU model, with some x86-32
extensions. It is not meaningfully possible to create anything
usefully like DOS for an Arm chip.

So, in summary, no really, no, and oh my no.

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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[tsiegel--- via Freedos-user]

Useless. end of life, and over 100 bucks, neither one of which is my 
target goal for building dos based devices with SBC components.


Good catch though, they could have been helpful had I known about them 
10 years ago.


On 10/19/2024 8:54 AM, G.W. Haywood via Freedos-user wrote:

Hi there,

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024, tsiegel--- via Freedos-user wrote:


...  That one the guys on that forum made is (currently) the only
one I've found that doesn't cost more than 100 bucks for an X86 SBC
capable of running dos. ...


I don't know if you're looking for something you can buy off the shelf
new, or if you'd consider used devices.  I've had very good experience
using the old Alix SBCs - with Linux only - for many years.

I've run many of them 24/7 and I've never had one fail in any way.
Not a single crash.

It's claimed DOS will run on them but I've never tried it myself. :/

https://www.pcengines.ch/alix.htm

I've no experience of the later (APU2 etc.) models.

They *might* be available used for under 100 USD.  I'd never sell one. :)




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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi!

The Raspberry Pi idea seems like far more work than necessary.  All the 
more reason for choices.  So that those who can explore this door can, 
but those who  want access to freedos on hardware can enjoy this as well.
The lack of a keyboard made this a nonstarter  as far as I am concerned. 


This might be a misunderstanding. The Pi Zero has USB, so you can
connect a keyboard to it without problems. However, somebody did
mention the Pi Pico, which is not part of the normal Raspberry Pi
family at all, while confusingly using the same brand name.

The Pi Pico is more similar to an Arduino controller: A controller,
not a general purpose computer. You are not supposed to run DOS there.

For those wanting MANY details, there is a huge list of devices here:

https://www.raspberrypi.com/documentation/computers/raspberry-pi.html

Normal Raspberry Pi are typically 56 x 85 mm in size, Most users will
buy those, as most models have 2 or 4 USB ports, HDMI, LAN and more.
Some variants are a bit smaller and have fewer ports.

The Pi Zero is significantly smaller, at 30 x 65 mm, which means that
it has significantly fewer connectors, for example only 1 real USB port
(the other one is for power supply) and no LAN ethernet connector:

https://learn.adafruit.com/introducing-the-raspberry-pi-zero/a-tour-of-the-pi-zero

So the Pi Zero is the bare minimum for a complete computer, while most
users will prefer the normal models with more connectors, including LAN.

This ends the list of Pi variants most computer users are likely to use.

Raspberry Pi also sells "compute modules". Those are boards with the
usual electronics on them, but without ANY of the normal connectors.

Those are meant to be plugged into custom devices, but you can also
buy generic adapter boards to just give them all the usual connectors.

Finally, and not a classic computer at all:

The Pi Pico microcontrollers are not similar to the Pi computers at
all. They just make use of the popular brand name, but are meant for
entirely different tasks, such as controlling your lights, a robot,
a toy, a coffee machine etc. Those are not usable as normal computers.

As the name suggests, Pi Pico are tiny, about the size of an 1990s
chip, and people like to plug them into breadboards or solder them
to their hobby projects. Again, those are not "normal" computers.

Regards, Eric





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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[G.W. Haywood via Freedos-user]

Hi there,

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024, tsiegel--- via Freedos-user wrote:


...  That one the guys on that forum made is (currently) the only
one I've found that doesn't cost more than 100 bucks for an X86 SBC
capable of running dos. ...


I don't know if you're looking for something you can buy off the shelf
new, or if you'd consider used devices.  I've had very good experience
using the old Alix SBCs - with Linux only - for many years.

I've run many of them 24/7 and I've never had one fail in any way.
Not a single crash.

It's claimed DOS will run on them but I've never tried it myself. :/

https://www.pcengines.ch/alix.htm

I've no experience of the later (APU2 etc.) models.

They *might* be available used for under 100 USD.  I'd never sell one. :)

--

73,
Ged.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Karen Lewellen via Freedos-user]

Far be it for me to judge creative expression.  still I recall  the goal 
of Mike I believe where dos and accessibility is concerned.
Between  computers put aside because someone decided they were out of 
date.   desire for independence.  Ease of putting the access together and 
so forth?
The Raspberry Pi idea seems like far more work than necessary.  All the more 
reason for choices.  So that those who can explore this door can, but 
those who  want access to freedos on hardware can enjoy this as well.
The lack of a keyboard made this a nonstarter  as far as I am concerned. 
Add in the price, and  well..not for me smiles.

Karen



On Sat, 19 Oct 2024, tsiegel--- via Freedos-user wrote:

Yeah, all of the x86 single board computers are well over the $100 mark, and 
some are as high as 400, so that's a nonstarter.  I have yet to find one 
that is an X86 SBC for a lower price point. If I was going to spend 400 
bucks, I'd not bother with a single board computer, I'd get a real one.


That's the issue I keep finding.  That one the guys on that forum made is 
(currently) the only one I've found that doesn't cose more than 100 bucks for 
an X86 SBC capable of running dos.  They're using for running dos games, but 
no reason we can't use it for other things.



On 10/18/2024 11:43 PM, Eric Auer via Freedos-user wrote:


 Hi! Just to clarify:

> >  I am *not* planning to transform a RPi into a standalone "DOS computer 
> >  that talks". That was Eric's idea. A perfectly valid idea with 
> >  possible practical applications, but outside of my specific interest.


 Not transform. You run DOS in an emulator. Only the emulator
 runs on the RPi hardware, DOS does not. As Mateusz has shown
 with EMUBNS, you can tell an emulator that the virtual serial
 port has to be connected to something virtual. This can be,
 for example, a simulation of a speech synthesizer connected
 to that, not actually existing, serial port. The simulation
 uses a Linux software speech synthesizer, but it looks like
 a hardware one for the DOS inside the emulator and for DOS,
 it makes no difference on which hardware the emulator is
 physically is running. It may even be running on a phone.

>  Of course, using linux and virtual emulation to make a dos subsystem can 
>  work, and that's how dosemu works (well, now there's dosemu2, which I 
>  can't get to work), but again, those use emulation...


 Yet that is what I actually meant. DOS in an emulator on a
 machine which runs a speech synthesizer software, while DOS
 thinks it is connected to a speech synthesizer hardware.

 The ORIGINAL suggestion was to turn the RPi into a HARDWARE
 simulation of a speech synthesizer. So you connect another
 computer to the serial port of the RPi and the RPi uses a
 collection of software to pretend that the RPi IS a speech
 synthesizer hardware. The other computer, which can be a
 computer physically capable of running DOS without needing
 an emulator, will not be able to tell the difference.

 As far as running dosemu2 on RPi, the maintainers of that
 software think it should be easy to compile for the RPi,
 but because they have no RPi, they cannot provide pre
 compiled binaries for the RPi. Having to compile dosemu2
 oneself is a bit tedious, so maybe somebody could help us
 by compiling it and sharing the binaries with more people.

 A quick search for x86 single board computers suggests:

 - Normal computers in the smaller standard form factors
   Mini ITX, Nano ITX and Pico ITX

 - All-in-one single board computers such as the
   LattePanda family, ODROID H3, UDOO Bolt  and similar

 http://docs.lattepanda.com/content/3rd_delta_edition/specification/

 https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h3/

 https://www.makeuseof.com/5-best-x86-single-board-computers-in-2023/

 However, I have significant doubts that such SBC with x86
 processor still come with a DOS compatible BIOS. They may
 be limited to running UEFI compatible operating systems.

 Does anybody here have one of those? Can they run DOS?

>  a real shame, there's so much legacy software out there that could 
>  benefit from such a system, I'm honestly extremely surprised...


 Modern computers simply have too much power, so you can just
 run DOS at full speed on emulators instead, even if those
 run on hardware which has nothing to do with DOS any more.

 Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[tsiegel--- via Freedos-user]

Yeah, all of the x86 single board computers are well over the $100 mark, 
and some are as high as 400, so that's a nonstarter.  I have yet to find 
one that is an X86 SBC for a lower price point. If I was going to spend 
400 bucks, I'd not bother with a single board computer, I'd get a real one.


That's the issue I keep finding.  That one the guys on that forum made 
is (currently) the only one I've found that doesn't cose more than 100 
bucks for an X86 SBC capable of running dos.  They're using for running 
dos games, but no reason we can't use it for other things.



On 10/18/2024 11:43 PM, Eric Auer via Freedos-user wrote:


Hi! Just to clarify:

I am *not* planning to transform a RPi into a standalone "DOS 
computer that talks". That was Eric's idea. A perfectly valid idea 
with possible practical applications, but outside of my specific 
interest.


Not transform. You run DOS in an emulator. Only the emulator
runs on the RPi hardware, DOS does not. As Mateusz has shown
with EMUBNS, you can tell an emulator that the virtual serial
port has to be connected to something virtual. This can be,
for example, a simulation of a speech synthesizer connected
to that, not actually existing, serial port. The simulation
uses a Linux software speech synthesizer, but it looks like
a hardware one for the DOS inside the emulator and for DOS,
it makes no difference on which hardware the emulator is
physically is running. It may even be running on a phone.

Of course, using linux and virtual emulation to make a dos subsystem 
can work, and that's how dosemu works (well, now there's dosemu2, 
which I can't get to work), but again, those use emulation...


Yet that is what I actually meant. DOS in an emulator on a
machine which runs a speech synthesizer software, while DOS
thinks it is connected to a speech synthesizer hardware.

The ORIGINAL suggestion was to turn the RPi into a HARDWARE
simulation of a speech synthesizer. So you connect another
computer to the serial port of the RPi and the RPi uses a
collection of software to pretend that the RPi IS a speech
synthesizer hardware. The other computer, which can be a
computer physically capable of running DOS without needing
an emulator, will not be able to tell the difference.

As far as running dosemu2 on RPi, the maintainers of that
software think it should be easy to compile for the RPi,
but because they have no RPi, they cannot provide pre
compiled binaries for the RPi. Having to compile dosemu2
oneself is a bit tedious, so maybe somebody could help us
by compiling it and sharing the binaries with more people.

A quick search for x86 single board computers suggests:

- Normal computers in the smaller standard form factors
  Mini ITX, Nano ITX and Pico ITX

- All-in-one single board computers such as the
  LattePanda family, ODROID H3, UDOO Bolt  and similar

http://docs.lattepanda.com/content/3rd_delta_edition/specification/

https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h3/

https://www.makeuseof.com/5-best-x86-single-board-computers-in-2023/

However, I have significant doubts that such SBC with x86
processor still come with a DOS compatible BIOS. They may
be limited to running UEFI compatible operating systems.

Does anybody here have one of those? Can they run DOS?

a real shame, there's so much legacy software out there that could 
benefit from such a system, I'm honestly extremely surprised...


Modern computers simply have too much power, so you can just
run DOS at full speed on emulators instead, even if those
run on hardware which has nothing to do with DOS any more.

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi! Just to clarify:

I am *not* planning to transform a RPi into a standalone "DOS computer 
that talks". That was Eric's idea. A perfectly valid idea with 
possible practical applications, but outside of my specific interest.


Not transform. You run DOS in an emulator. Only the emulator
runs on the RPi hardware, DOS does not. As Mateusz has shown
with EMUBNS, you can tell an emulator that the virtual serial
port has to be connected to something virtual. This can be,
for example, a simulation of a speech synthesizer connected
to that, not actually existing, serial port. The simulation
uses a Linux software speech synthesizer, but it looks like
a hardware one for the DOS inside the emulator and for DOS,
it makes no difference on which hardware the emulator is
physically is running. It may even be running on a phone.

Of course, using linux and virtual emulation to make a dos subsystem can 
work, and that's how dosemu works (well, now there's dosemu2, which I 
can't get to work), but again, those use emulation...


Yet that is what I actually meant. DOS in an emulator on a
machine which runs a speech synthesizer software, while DOS
thinks it is connected to a speech synthesizer hardware.

The ORIGINAL suggestion was to turn the RPi into a HARDWARE
simulation of a speech synthesizer. So you connect another
computer to the serial port of the RPi and the RPi uses a
collection of software to pretend that the RPi IS a speech
synthesizer hardware. The other computer, which can be a
computer physically capable of running DOS without needing
an emulator, will not be able to tell the difference.

As far as running dosemu2 on RPi, the maintainers of that
software think it should be easy to compile for the RPi,
but because they have no RPi, they cannot provide pre
compiled binaries for the RPi. Having to compile dosemu2
oneself is a bit tedious, so maybe somebody could help us
by compiling it and sharing the binaries with more people.

A quick search for x86 single board computers suggests:

- Normal computers in the smaller standard form factors
  Mini ITX, Nano ITX and Pico ITX

- All-in-one single board computers such as the
  LattePanda family, ODROID H3, UDOO Bolt  and similar

http://docs.lattepanda.com/content/3rd_delta_edition/specification/

https://www.hardkernel.com/shop/odroid-h3/

https://www.makeuseof.com/5-best-x86-single-board-computers-in-2023/

However, I have significant doubts that such SBC with x86
processor still come with a DOS compatible BIOS. They may
be limited to running UEFI compatible operating systems.

Does anybody here have one of those? Can they run DOS?

a real shame, there's so much legacy software out there that could 
benefit from such a system, I'm honestly extremely surprised...


Modern computers simply have too much power, so you can just
run DOS at full speed on emulators instead, even if those
run on hardware which has nothing to do with DOS any more.

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[tsiegel--- via Freedos-user]

On 10/18/2024 8:07 AM, Mateusz Viste via Freedos-user wrote:


I am *not* planning to transform a RPi into a standalone "DOS computer 
that talks". That was Eric's idea. A perfectly valid idea with 
possible practical applications, but outside of my specific interest.


Won't work.  Dos itself uses a *lot* of interrupt calls to do things.  
The raspberry pies run processors that don't support interrupts.  
Therefore, porting a stand-alone version of dos to the pie just won't work.


Of course, using linux and virtual emulation to make a dos subsystem can 
work, and that's how dosemu works (well, now there's dosemu2, which I 
can't get to work), but again, those use emulation.  I'm still looking 
for an inexpensive X86 type SBC that can be used to build a dos only 
machine.  That would be awesome, but inexpensive doesn't seem to be a 
buzzword when it comes to x86 compatible single board computers, which 
is a real shame, there's so much legacy software out there that could 
benefit from such a system, I'm honestly extremely surprised such a 
system does not currently exist.


I've seen do it yourself forums where folks have built such machines, 
and one of them is still pretty active, but you need to send the board 
design to a company to do the building for you, since circuit boards are 
involved, and several surface mount chips are needed.  It does work 
though, and perhaps I'll be able to get into the queue at some point, 
and have some of those built, then I can implement any number of dos 
projects, but that's probably 2 years or more away for me.





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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[G.W. Haywood via Freedos-user]

Hi there,

On Fri, 18 Oct 2024, Eric Auer via Freedos-user wrote:

...
To bump a related topic: DOSEMU2 does work on ARM64
hardware, but their Ubuntu packages do not run on a
Raspberry Pi PC out of the box. If somebody is bored,
it would be nice to have pre-compiled Rasbperry Pi
OS Linux DEB or FLATPAK packages for DOSEMU2 :-)
...


FWIW I've never tried DOSEMU2 but I routinely run DOSBOX on a
Raspberry Pi to run very old compilers/assemblers.

Building from a couple of hundred source files takes a few minutes and
occasionally it does crash.  Then I just start it up again, delete the
most recently created object file, and re-start 'make'. :)

I haven't tried to do anything with sound on an emulated DOS.

--

73,
Ged.


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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Eric Auer via Freedos-user]

Hi Mateusz, hi FreeDOS people,

thank you for creating that emulation of the
speech part of Braille n Speak :-)


http://emubns.sourceforge.net


Question about the other half, are components of
Braille displays freely available? Like single char
parts, similar to 7-segment LED numbers, only with
significantly higher current draw? Then it would
be interesting to know whether there are some do
it yourself Raspberry controlled Braille display
projects out there - could be more affordable and
more flexible than commercial versions.


My goal is to prepare a RPi that I will connect to my 386 PC so
it talks to me when I enter commands and such. Nothing more.

I am *not* planning to transform a RPi into a standalone "DOS computer 
that talks". That was Eric's idea. A perfectly valid idea with possible 
practical applications, but outside of my specific interest.


To bump a related topic: DOSEMU2 does work on ARM64
hardware, but their Ubuntu packages do not run on a
Raspberry Pi PC out of the box. If somebody is bored,
it would be nice to have pre-compiled Rasbperry Pi
OS Linux DEB or FLATPAK packages for DOSEMU2 :-)

https://github.com/dosemu2/dosemu2/issues/2277

Regards, Eric




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Re: [Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Mateusz Viste via Freedos-user]

On 18/10/2024 03:29, Mike Coulombe via Freedos-user wrote:
Hey, that sounds promising. So was that dos install software speech or 
did you have a newer braille an speak connected? The only braille an 
speak I know about is the one I use to have in the late eighties.


I do not own any Braille 'n Speak. Some years ago I created a software 
emulation of such device, limited to the function of the BNS 
synthesizer, or "speech box mode" as the BNS manual calls it. This 
emulation is a Linux program that I named emubns. It can be "attached" 
to a virtual machine that runs DOS and mimic a BNS synth. I described 
the process in more details on the emubns website:

http://emubns.sourceforge.net

Anyway, if this is all software speech, could it work on a regular 
laptop?


Yes it can, but the laptop has to run Linux, and then the DOS system has 
to be executed within a virtual machine, for example under VirtualBox or 
QEMU. It's exactly how I created the video that I uploaded to youtube.


For such setup there is no need for a Raspberry Pi. The Raspberry is a 
solution that may be used to attach emubns to a physical PC that runs 
DOS. For example if someone uses an old computer with DOS and a Braille 
'n Speak device for synth output, then emubns on a Raspberry could be a 
drop-in replacement for the Braille 'n Speak.


My goal is to prepare a RPi that I will connect to my 386 PC so it talks 
to me when I enter commands and such. Nothing more.


I am *not* planning to transform a RPi into a standalone "DOS computer 
that talks". That was Eric's idea. A perfectly valid idea with possible 
practical applications, but outside of my specific interest.


Mateusz


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[Freedos-user] Dos on raspberry pi.

[Mike Coulombe via Freedos-user]

Hey, that sounds promising. So was that dos install software speech or 
did you have a newer braille an speak connected? The only braille an 
speak I know about is the one I use to have in the late eighties. 
Anyway, if this is all software speech, could it work on a regular 
laptop? This gave me an idea. How about using a very basic Linux setup 
that works with dos emu and making a talking dos disk that way? This way 
Linux would find sound cards and speak up could be the screen reader. 
It's been some time, but I at one time did get this to work using the -t 
switch with dos emu. Now that I think about this I did run into one 
issue I'm sure could be corrected by someone who knows programming. When 
playing text based games for some reason the buffer didn't always clear 
and lines were repeated. It seems to me I had the same issue using Orca 
in the gnome terminal. If this can't be easily done and you get it 
working on a raspberry pi. I'll get one. That would make a nice small 
computer I could take with me. I look forward to seeing how your system 
turns out.




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Re: [Freedos-user] DOS on Raspberry Pi

[Ralf A. Quint]

At 07:05 PM 3/27/2013, Jim Hall wrote:


On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 2:11 AM, john s wolter 
<johnswol...@wolterworks.com> wrote:
Okay, had anyone done a name search prior to production?  MINiX3.org 
might not be amused.  Go was the last test of overlapping  names.




I don't see the name conflict. "rpix86" and "MINIX" look entirely 
different to me. Just because there's an "x" or "-ix" in there 
doesn't make it a name conflict, just like "FreeDOS" (or the 
original name, "PD-DOS") didn't make it a name conflict with "MS-DOS".


And MINIX is different from rpix86: MINIX is a whole Unix kernel 
plus Unix userspace, rpix86 is a virtual x86 machine for ARM plus 
DOS kernel. And "rpix86" is just the name of the binary package, 
anyway. It really stands for "R. Pi x86".


He was likely rather referring to the Hong Kong based company/web 
site called MiniX that offers the media hub which Robert mentioned in his reply
Doom on my MiniX NEO X5 
(http://www.minix.com.hk/Products/NEOX5.html)

connected to a 37" LCD TV. ;-)


Ralf --
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Re: [Freedos-user] DOS on Raspberry Pi

[Jim Hall]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 2:11 AM, john s wolter
wrote:

> Okay, had anyone done a name search prior to production?  MINiX3.org might
> not be amused.  Go was the last test of overlapping  names.
>


I don't see the name conflict. "rpix86" and "MINIX" look entirely different
to me. Just because there's an "x" or "-ix" in there doesn't make it a name
conflict, just like "FreeDOS" (or the original name, "PD-DOS") didn't make
it a name conflict with "MS-DOS".

And MINIX is different from rpix86: MINIX is a whole Unix kernel plus Unix
userspace, rpix86 is a virtual x86 machine for ARM plus DOS kernel. And
"rpix86" is just the name of the binary package, anyway. It really stands
for "R. Pi x86".
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Re: [Freedos-user] DOS on Raspberry Pi

[john s wolter]

Okay, had anyone done a name search prior to production?  MINiX3.org might
not be amused.  Go was the last test of overlapping  names.

Cheers,
John S Wolter

LinkedIn: johnswolter 

johnswol...@wolterworks.com
USA, Eastern Standard Time, -5 GMT, -4 GMT DST



On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Robert Riebisch wrote:

> Jim Hall wrote:
>
> > I thought this was cool: Patrick Aalto ported DSx86 to the Raspberry Pi,
>
> The LineWars guy. :-)
>
> > as rpix86 (as in "R. Pi x86"), so now you can run DOS on the Pi.
> >
> > http://rpix86.patrickaalto.com/
>
> He's also working on a port to Android: http://ax86.patrickaalto.com/
> Doom on my MiniX NEO X5 (http://www.minix.com.hk/Products/NEOX5.html)
> connected to a 37" LCD TV. ;-)
>
> Robert Riebisch
> --
>   +++ BTTR Software +++
>  Home page:  http://www.bttr-software.de/
>  Blog (German):  http://notepad.bttr-software.de/
> DOS ain't dead:  http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/
>
>
> --
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> Rise to greatness in Intel's independent game demo contest.
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Re: [Freedos-user] DOS on Raspberry Pi

[Robert Riebisch]

Jim Hall wrote:

> I thought this was cool: Patrick Aalto ported DSx86 to the Raspberry Pi,

The LineWars guy. :-)

> as rpix86 (as in "R. Pi x86"), so now you can run DOS on the Pi.
> 
> http://rpix86.patrickaalto.com/

He's also working on a port to Android: http://ax86.patrickaalto.com/
Doom on my MiniX NEO X5 (http://www.minix.com.hk/Products/NEOX5.html)
connected to a 37" LCD TV. ;-)

Robert Riebisch
-- 
  +++ BTTR Software +++
 Home page:  http://www.bttr-software.de/
 Blog (German):  http://notepad.bttr-software.de/
DOS ain't dead:  http://www.bttr-software.de/forum/

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[Freedos-user] DOS on Raspberry Pi

[Jim Hall]

I thought this was cool: Patrick Aalto ported DSx86 to the Raspberry Pi, as
rpix86 (as in "R. Pi x86"), so now you can run DOS on the Pi.

http://rpix86.patrickaalto.com/


>From his blog (http://rpix86.patrickaalto.com/rblog.html) I gather that
this is running its own DOS kernel, but does provide some FreeDOS things
(such as Keyb). He uses 4DOS as the command interpreter.
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