Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Xavier Dury]

Thanks for all the feedback! :-)

As I said before, DOSBox is not an option to me as I have already done it 
before on my PC and my RPi (there is nothing hard/challenging in installing 
DOSBox on windows or linux)... and don't get me wrong: I have absolutely 
nothing against emulators. It's just that I work everyday with linux/windows, 
hypervisors, containers, (java) VMs.

I wanted to try something different in my free time and somehow go back to my 
roots (DOS).

I initially wanted to run rpix86 on a RPi2 for its tiny form factor but it can 
only emulate a 486@20Mhz which is a bit slow for the last DOS games like Quake, 
DN3D, Magic Carpet, Hi-Octane... So I thought, why not use a recent x86 as DOS 
was intended to be run on instead of an ARM one.

I knew beforehand that it was going to be a challenge as I had so many 
questions (how does DOS behave with USB keyboard and mouse, UEFI, SATA, sound 
chips?) but that's where the fun is.

And I chose FreeDOS over MS-DOS because I had better hope it could handle the 
last x86 evolutions (the last version is only 4 years old while the last MS-DOS 
came with windows 98).

So, that's why I wanted to know if someone already did it:

- If yes then what are the difficulties?
- If no then why?
- Is it because nobody thought about doing that before? (I hardly doubt it)
- Is it because it's not possible anymore?
- Then, at what point in the x86 evolution have we lost the capability to run 
DOS (which ruled that platform for years)?

Now that I know that current sound chips aren't SB compatible at all, this is a 
blocking issue.

The 2 options I got left are indeed use DOSBox on linux (and launch DOSBox on 
boot to have something that looks like an old DOS computer) or dig up my old 
Pentium@166Mhz from the basement (but its size and noise are not so convenient 
and won't please my wife :-) ).

Once again, thank you for the great discussion and information.

Regards,

Xavier


> From: dennis.mccun...@gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 7 Jan 2016 19:13:18 -0500
> To: freedos-user@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick
>
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Rugxulo <rugx...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 5:43 PM, dmccunney <dennis.mccun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Rugxulo <rugx...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seem intent to *only* run atop this
>>>> new Intel Compute stick thingy. Have you never tried a bootable USB before?
>>>
>>> His stated intent is to run old DOS games on a cheap HD monitor with
>>> the Compute Stick plugged into it. A bootable USB drive requires a
>>> computer to plug it into so you can boot from it. The Compute Stick
>>> *is* a bootable computer.
>>
>> Great, but so is the machine he's sending email from (which, more than
>> likely, already has a BIOS).
>
> Yep. But what if that's not what he wants to use that computer for?
> He's looking at a cheap, dedicated games device.
>
>> Besides, he hasn't bought either the stick *or* the monitor yet!
>> Surely he must've known that a simple bootable USB jump drive is
>> easier to find and get working (and cheaper too).
>
> I'm certain he does. At the moment, he's exploring whether his notion
> is doable.
>
> The answer seems to be, if he gets one that boots Windows or Linux and
> installs DOSBox, he can do it. If he insists on using FreeDOS, he has
> a problem because he may not be able to get it to boot due to the
> Compute Stick design.
> __
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 4:52 AM, Xavier Dury  wrote:
> Thanks for all the feedback! :-)
>
> As I said before, DOSBox is not an option to me as I have already done it 
> before on my PC and my RPi
> (there is nothing hard/challenging in installing DOSBox on windows or 
> linux)... and don't get me wrong:
> I have absolutely nothing against emulators. It's just that I work everyday 
> with linux/windows, hypervisors,
> containers, (java) VMs.

If you work every day with those, then do you know about VT-X?
"Unrestricted guest mode execution"? Hyper-V?

> I wanted to try something different in my free time and somehow go back to my 
> roots (DOS).
>
> I initially wanted to run rpix86 on a RPi2 for its tiny form factor but it 
> can only emulate a 486@20Mhz
> which is a bit slow for the last DOS games like Quake, DN3D, Magic Carpet, 
> Hi-Octane...

Yes, it's slow, especially if you choose such a (relatively) low-end
host cpu. That can barely be helped.
You could try some unofficial forks of DOSBox, but I don't know of any
perfect solution to speeding it
up on a RPi2.

Native x86 is fast, but it lacks sound. Even under DOSEMU, sound
doesn't always work.
(Although I played the heck out of Hexen2 [Hammer of Thyrion] under
DOSEMU in recent years, which is Quake-based.)

Most people would tell you to use a modern source port (e.g. Doom,
Quake, Duke Nukem 3D) compiled for Windows or Linux.
Seriously, if at all possible, the consensus is not to run under DOS
at all, if the .EXE can be recompiled. Heck, even Tyrian
was ported to modern systems.

> So I thought, why not use a recent x86 as DOS was intended to be run on 
> instead of an ARM one.

Sound is the big problem. But if you can live without that, then
you're "probably" okay (more or less).

> I knew beforehand that it was going to be a challenge as I had so many 
> questions
> (how does DOS behave with USB keyboard and mouse,

Depends on the built-in BIOS emulation (if any) and drivers.

> UEFI,

Depends on if CSM is available.

> SATA,

None.

> sound chips?)

Almost none.

> but that's where the fun is.

Depends on your level of patience and skill, but some things are
(almost) impossible.

> And I chose FreeDOS over MS-DOS because I had better hope it could handle the 
> last x86 evolutions
> (the last version is only 4 years old while the last MS-DOS came with windows 
> 98).

Nope, FreeDOS doesn't have extra cpu or driver support at all. And
there are no companies contributing in recent years to DOS at all.
There is no upstream interest in DOS as anything but bare bones (i.e.
minimal bootup to do low-level recovery or BIOS flashing).
DOS is not supported nor recommended by any big companies anymore.
Even hobbyist projects have mostly dropped it,
esp. once NTVDM got buggier and buggier (after XP) and AMD64 became
mainstream (no V86 mode).

> So, that's why I wanted to know if someone already did it:
>
> - If yes then what are the difficulties?
> - If no then why?
> - Is it because nobody thought about doing that before? (I hardly doubt it)
> - Is it because it's not possible anymore?
> - Then, at what point in the x86 evolution have we lost the capability to run 
> DOS (which ruled that platform for years)?

If you have a BIOS, you can run DOS. But 99% of the time, things like
sound don't work. And all the other stuff (power management,
multiple cores) is almost totally ignored or broken. There are no huge
modern enhancements to FreeDOS. If you're expecting
FreeBSD levels of compatibility with ultra-modern hardware, you're
sorely mistaken (sadly).

> Now that I know that current sound chips aren't SB compatible at all, this is 
> a blocking issue.
>
> The 2 options I got left are indeed use DOSBox on linux (and launch DOSBox on 
> boot to have something that looks like
> an old DOS computer) or dig up my old Pentium@166Mhz from the basement (but 
> its size and noise are not so convenient
> and won't please my wife :-) ).
>
> Once again, thank you for the great discussion and information.

I almost forgot that ReactOS has been heavily working on their own
NTVDM, and I just found a video of them playing Duke
Nukem 3D in (unreleased) 0.4 previews. So it's not all hopeless, but
that depends on whether you find that acceptable
or if you still insist on using exactly "DOS only" or not.

P.S. Did you hear about Retro City Rampage DX?

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[dmccunney]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
> Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seem intent to *only* run atop this
> new Intel Compute stick thingy. Have you never tried a bootable USB before?

His stated intent is to run old DOS games on a cheap HD monitor with
the Compute Stick plugged into it.  A bootable USB drive requires a
computer to plug it into so you can boot from it.  The Compute Stick
*is* a bootable computer.
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 5:43 PM, dmccunney  wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Rugxulo  wrote:
>>
>> Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seem intent to *only* run atop this
>> new Intel Compute stick thingy. Have you never tried a bootable USB before?
>
> His stated intent is to run old DOS games on a cheap HD monitor with
> the Compute Stick plugged into it.  A bootable USB drive requires a
> computer to plug it into so you can boot from it.  The Compute Stick
> *is* a bootable computer.

Great, but so is the machine he's sending email from (which, more than
likely, already has a BIOS).

Besides, he hasn't bought either the stick *or* the monitor yet!
Surely he must've known that a simple bootable USB jump drive is
easier to find and get working (and cheaper too).

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[dmccunney]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:49 PM, Rugxulo <rugx...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 5:43 PM, dmccunney <dennis.mccun...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Rugxulo <rugx...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seem intent to *only* run atop this
>>> new Intel Compute stick thingy. Have you never tried a bootable USB before?
>>
>> His stated intent is to run old DOS games on a cheap HD monitor with
>> the Compute Stick plugged into it.  A bootable USB drive requires a
>> computer to plug it into so you can boot from it.  The Compute Stick
>> *is* a bootable computer.
>
> Great, but so is the machine he's sending email from (which, more than
> likely, already has a BIOS).

Yep.  But what if that's not what he wants to use that computer for?
He's looking at a cheap, dedicated games device.

> Besides, he hasn't bought either the stick *or* the monitor yet!
> Surely he must've known that a simple bootable USB jump drive is
> easier to find and get working (and cheaper too).

I'm certain he does.  At the moment, he's exploring whether his notion
is doable.

The answer seems to be, if he gets one that boots Windows or Linux and
installs DOSBox, he can do it.  If he insists on using FreeDOS, he has
a problem because he may not be able to get it to boot due to the
Compute Stick design.
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:49 AM, Xavier Dury  wrote:
>
> Thanks for your answer.
>
> Yes, I know about DOSBox, Bochs and rpix86 but I don't want to take the easy 
> road :-)

DOSEMU (V86)? VirtualBox (VT-X)? Neither of those is "slow", they are
both (partially) native.

> I spent my youth tweaking my config.sys and autoexec.bat... and I want to do 
> it again
> (I know, it's a bit foolish

How is it foolish? It's old-fashioned, but it still (sometimes) works.
You don't have to apologize
for listing to old music, so why apologize for old software?

> but I am in my mid 30s and I miss that feeling having all
> drivers/TSRs loaded and still having 630k+ of conventional mem :-) ).
>
> Now that everything runs in emulators/VMs, I want something that runs on 
> "bare metal"
> for a change

There's nothing wrong with emulators ... as long as they 1). function
properly and are technically correct, and 2). aren't so slow as to
watch paint dry.

> but I must admit that I don't know where to start or even whether it's
> possible or not with modern computers.

If you're using UEFI, you presumably need a CSM, but I don't know much
about it (and
apparently not all machines come with that).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#CSM_booting

> Regarding the BIOS issue, could something like SeaBIOS help?

Doubt it.

> I just wanted to know if somebody had already done such a thing.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but you seem intent to *only* run atop this
new Intel Compute
stick thingy. Have you never tried a bootable USB before? That is
native and can run on any
semi-modern machine with a BIOS. Do you not have any such machines
available? Didn't
you know this could already be done (at least in that way, which is of
course different
to what you're asking but still works)?

1). http://rufus.akeo.ie/
2). http://unetbootin.github.io/
3). http://joelinoff.com/blog/?p=431

But for games I do recommend only DOSBox. Anything else I'd probably
suggest VBox or QEMU.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Rugxulo]

Hi,

Just one more quick reply,

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 3:56 AM, Xavier Dury  wrote:
>
> Did anyone try to install FreeDOS on an Intel compute stick or other similar 
> x86
> (non-arm) pc on a stick ?
>
> I would like to use such a stick to play my old DOS game collection (with a 
> cheap
> HDMI monitor) but I don't know if FreeDOS will install correctly on such a 
> machine

Install? Yes. Work fully? Maybe not.

> and how the games will see the embedded sound chip (will that chip be seen as
> some sort of SoundBlaster compatible card ?).

Okay, here's the deal: modern sound hardware is totally SB
"incompatible". Sound is
perhaps the weakest link in all of FreeDOS. There is (almost) no hope
at all for that,
and you would definitely be wasting your time if that's a deal breaker.

Honestly, although DOSBox is 100% software-only emulation (not a real DOS, only
for games!), it does have excellent soundcard emulation (e.g. SB16, GUS). It is
almost perfect for old games that need a "fast" 486 or "slow" Pentium. A lot of
YouTubers (e.g. Pixelmusement/ADG) use it extensively, and it fits
their needs quite
well. Heck, a lot of old games (e.g. GOG.com) come bundled with DOSBox nowadays.

So no, don't even waste your time with literally anything else. I
don't think even
DOSEMU, QEMU, or VBox support SB16 properly in most cases (sadly), or at least I
had horrible luck. So honestly, your best bet (for old games, only)
truly is DOSBox.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Jim Hall]

> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>> I remembered one other thing about this device: It uses EFI. I don't
>> think there's a proper BIOS on the ComputeStick. But FreeDOS needs
>> BIOS.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:06 AM, dmccunney  wrote:
> Do you recall what was involved on getting Linux booted?
>
> If Xavier can get Linux up, he might be able to install DOSBox and run
> his old DOS games that way.  It's what DOSBox is for.


It's a very locked down device. There's an option in the EFI to select
"Linux" or "Windows" boot mode. But you could simply buy the
ComputeStick model that has Ubuntu Linux pre-loaded on it:
http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Compute-Stick-Linux-BOXSTCK1A8LFCCR/dp/B00UYHE60Y

However, I don't have experience with that model. We purchased the
ComputeStick to evaluate it as a possible replacement in our campus
computer labs, which run Windows. So we bought the Windows
ComputeStick. I was able to boot a Fedora Linux LiveUSB on it, just to
try it out, but it was really slw to boot and (IIRC)
didn't recognize the wireless interface.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Jim Hall]

I had a ComputeStick at my previous job; we bought it to experiment with
for campus computer labs. That device is weirdly locked down. I didn't get
a chance to boot FreeDOS on it, but even booting a Linux distribution was a
pain.
On Jan 7, 2016 3:57 AM, "Xavier Dury"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Did anyone try to install FreeDOS on an Intel compute stick or other
> similar x86 (non-arm) pc on a stick ?
>
> I would like to use such a stick to play my old DOS game collection (with
> a cheap HDMI monitor) but I don't know if FreeDOS will install correctly on
> such a machine and how the games will see the embedded sound chip (will
> that chip be seen as some sort of SoundBlaster compatible card ?).
>
> I would like to know if such a setup is possible before I buy the stick
> and the monitor.
>
> Thanks a lot,
>
> Xavier
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[dmccunney]

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Jim Hall  wrote:
> I remembered one other thing about this device: It uses EFI. I don't
> think there's a proper BIOS on the ComputeStick. But FreeDOS needs
> BIOS.

Do you recall what was involved on getting Linux booted?

If Xavier can get Linux up, he might be able to install DOSBox and run
his old DOS games that way.  It's what DOSBox is for.
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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[Jim Hall]

> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 10:19 AM, Jim Hall  wrote:
>> It's a very locked down device. There's an option in the EFI to select
>> "Linux" or "Windows" boot mode. But you could simply buy the
>> ComputeStick model that has Ubuntu Linux pre-loaded on it:
>> http://www.amazon.com/Intel-Compute-Stick-Linux-BOXSTCK1A8LFCCR/dp/B00UYHE60Y
>>
>> However, I don't have experience with that model. We purchased the
>> ComputeStick to evaluate it as a possible replacement in our campus
>> computer labs, which run Windows. So we bought the Windows
>> ComputeStick. I was able to boot a Fedora Linux LiveUSB on it, just to
>> try it out, but it was really slw to boot and (IIRC)
>> didn't recognize the wireless interface.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:34 AM, dmccunney  wrote:
> The variant with Ubuntu pre-loaded looks interesting, and would save a
> fair bit of work.
>
> I can imagine the fun getting Fedora up on the Windows variant.  I can
> also imagine "sloow to boot".
>
> I doubt the Ubuntu variant will be a speed demon, either, but for
> things like that, my practice is to boot it and simply leave it up.
> If you don't need to shutdown and reboot, why do so?

To clarify: The ComputeStick was very fast to boot from the internal
storage. It was just booting from the LiveUSB that took forever. I'm
sure if I'd managed to install Fedora Linux on the ComputeStick,
Fedora would likely have booted very quickly too.

We regularly shut down the ComputeStick at the end of the day when we
were done experimenting. You can leave it up, but the network was
wireless network only, and our wireless network would "time out"
connections about every 3 hours. So there wasn't any value in leaving
it running overnight anyway.

> What was the lab's experience with trying to use the Windows model?

We found it was a nice device that would meet most workloads. We were
a Google Apps for Education campus, so most of the workload was via a
web browser, although (IIRC) the Windows ComputeStick came with a
local copy of Office. You really only noticed a "dip" in performance
when opening a big spreadsheet (I had a lot of those, as part of our
project management process). If you were just opening an empty Google
spreadsheet or an empty Excel spreadsheet or a Word document or a
Google Docs document, it was fine.

We recommended that the ComputeStick would be a better fit for
classroom computers and conference rooms, where the workload was more
predictable (i.e. mostly Google Slides or Powerpoint). The
ComputeStick could be directly attached to the projector or display
(also makes the ComputeStick more difficult to steal, as it's either
locked away or really hard to get at) and use a BT keyboard/mouse. We
also recommended a USB adapter to provide a wired network connection,
rather than use wireless.

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Re: [Freedos-user] FreeDOS on a compute stick

[dmccunney]

> On Thu, Jan 7, 2016 at 9:34 AM, dmccunney  wrote:
>> The variant with Ubuntu pre-loaded looks interesting, and would save a
>> fair bit of work.
>>
>> I can imagine the fun getting Fedora up on the Windows variant.  I can
>> also imagine "sloow to boot".
>>
>> I doubt the Ubuntu variant will be a speed demon, either, but for
>> things like that, my practice is to boot it and simply leave it up.
>> If you don't need to shutdown and reboot, why do so?
>
> To clarify: The ComputeStick was very fast to boot from the internal
> storage. It was just booting from the LiveUSB that took forever. I'm
> sure if I'd managed to install Fedora Linux on the ComputeStick,
> Fedora would likely have booted very quickly too.

Ah.  I can see where that might be the case.  I'd guess the LiveUSB
was USB 2, and you would probably want USB 3 to boot from it quickly.

(My desktop is USB 2.  That's not a drawback in practice because what
plugs into USB is mostly things like flash drives used for archival
storage where USB 3 speeds aren't required.)

> We regularly shut down the ComputeStick at the end of the day when we
> were done experimenting. You can leave it up, but the network was
> wireless network only, and our wireless network would "time out"
> connections about every 3 hours. So there wasn't any value in leaving
> it running overnight anyway.

Since it booted quickly from internal storage, my "Just boot it and
leave it up" comment is less relevant.  I do that to avoid rebooting,
but if you have fast enough booting, you may not care.

>> What was the lab's experience with trying to use the Windows model?
>
> We found it was a nice device that would meet most workloads. We were
> a Google Apps for Education campus, so most of the workload was via a
> web browser, although (IIRC) the Windows ComputeStick came with a
> local copy of Office. You really only noticed a "dip" in performance
> when opening a big spreadsheet (I had a lot of those, as part of our
> project management process). If you were just opening an empty Google
> spreadsheet or an empty Excel spreadsheet or a Word document or a
> Google Docs document, it was fine.

My experience has been that opening really big spreadsheets is always
a resource intensive process.

At a former employer, the facility manager at the office I worked out
of complained his PC was slow.  His machine was basically identical in
configuration with most of the others, and no one else complained.  It
turned out what was really slow was opening a big spreadsheet that
contained the current stats on work in process.  The spreadsheet
resided on an NT server in my computer room.  Another employee would
update it nightly, and email it to him.  He'd open it in the morning.

We used Outlook talking to Exchange Server, and the Exchange Server
was in another office at a remote location.  So when he opened the
spreadsheet, he was opening it across the WAN from the Exchange Server
mail store.  Gee.  No wonder things were slow.  The solution was for
the employees doing the updates to include a pointer to the local copy
in her email instead of actually attaching the file.  The manager's
speed complaints went away.  :-)

> We recommended that the ComputeStick would be a better fit for
> classroom computers and conference rooms, where the workload was more
> predictable (i.e. mostly Google Slides or Powerpoint). The
> ComputeStick could be directly attached to the projector or display
> (also makes the ComputeStick more difficult to steal, as it's either
> locked away or really hard to get at) and use a BT keyboard/mouse. We
> also recommended a USB adapter to provide a wired network connection,
> rather than use wireless.

Compute Sticks might get up and walk off if not closely watched?  :-p

But yes, that experience sounds like what I'd expect, and especially
USB for network connectivity.  If you don't need x86 compatibility,
you can do similar things with ARM based devices.  We are firmly in
the age of "Getcher computer!  Onna stick!  'Ardly moving at all!"
CMOT. Dibbler would be in his element...
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