Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Russ Abbott]

Haidt has a nice TED
talkbased
on the book.

My sense is that a lot of it is emotional--rather than rational--for a lot
of people. Nick, how did your experiment go?

We might do the experiment here. One standard way of proceeding is to
paraphrase (in as positive a way as possible) the position of the person
who just spoke. That would demonstrate that the new speaker at least
understands the position of the previous speaker.

A second approach (which does not preclude the first) is to be as honest as
one can about the emotional content of one's own position. E.g., "I favor X
because not-X makes me feel icky."

Anyone care to suggest a topic and start? Nick, Jochen, how about one of
you.


*-- Russ Abbott*
*_*
***  Professor, Computer Science*
*  California State University, Los Angeles*

*  My paper on how the Fed can fix the economy: ssrn.com/abstract=1977688*
*  Google voice: 747-*999-5105
  Google+: plus.google.com/114865618166480775623/
*  vita:  *sites.google.com/site/russabbott/
  CS Wiki  and the courses I teach
*_*



On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote:

> Jochen, 
>
> ** **
>
> At this week’s FRIAM meeting, we talked briefly about politics and it was
> clear that there was some disagreement around the table.  We were about to
> let it go, on that ground, when I decided, spurred by my newly embraced
> pragmatist ideology, to beg that they all put their minds for 5 minutes to
> the question, “How do we go about having a conversation with people with
> whom we disagree?  A conversation that would actually get somewhere.”  ***
> *
>
> ** **
>
> Our usual way of proceding is what I call “FogHorns on a Shrouded Bay.”
> Each individual sounds off while the others listen politely or check their
> email on their cell phones.  That goes around the circle a couple of times,
> and then people just drop the topic and go on to something else.  
>
> ** **
>
> On the whole, most people I know would rather be force fed castor oil than
> be convinced to change their minds.
>
> ** **
>
> So, back to you, Jochen.  Is it truly different where you are?  Have you
> ever sat in on a political discussion in which anybody ever changed his or
> her mind?  How did that happen?  
>
> ** **
>
> Nick
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Jochen
> Fromm
> *Sent:* Saturday, November 03, 2012 3:20 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election
>
> ** **
>
> Interesting read. Sometimes we wonder why other peoples voting decisions
> are fundamentally different from ours even if all good reasons speak
> against it. Are they backward or brainwashed? Jonathan Haidt has written a
> book named "The Righteous Mind" where he argues that people don't really
> listen to arguments or reasons. Guided by their emotions, they often come
> to a quick conclusion what is good or bad, and this decision is in
> accordance with their worldview and their moral system (regardless how
> skewed it may be).
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/the-righteous-mind-by-jonathan-haidt.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
>
> -J.
>
> Am 03.11.2012 21:18, schrieb Roger Critchlow: 
>
> Here's how backward the conservative heart of america beats:
>
> ** **
>
>   http://www.thebaffler.com/past/the_long_con
>
> ** **
>
> -- rec --
>
> ** **
>
>
>
>
> 
>
> 
>
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ** **
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Nicholas Thompson]

Jochen, 

 

At this week's FRIAM meeting, we talked briefly about politics and it was
clear that there was some disagreement around the table.  We were about to
let it go, on that ground, when I decided, spurred by my newly embraced
pragmatist ideology, to beg that they all put their minds for 5 minutes to
the question, "How do we go about having a conversation with people with
whom we disagree?  A conversation that would actually get somewhere."  

 

Our usual way of proceding is what I call "FogHorns on a Shrouded Bay."
Each individual sounds off while the others listen politely or check their
email on their cell phones.  That goes around the circle a couple of times,
and then people just drop the topic and go on to something else.  

 

On the whole, most people I know would rather be force fed castor oil than
be convinced to change their minds.

 

So, back to you, Jochen.  Is it truly different where you are?  Have you
ever sat in on a political discussion in which anybody ever changed his or
her mind?  How did that happen?  

 

Nick

 

From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 3:20 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

 

Interesting read. Sometimes we wonder why other peoples voting decisions are
fundamentally different from ours even if all good reasons speak against it.
Are they backward or brainwashed? Jonathan Haidt has written a book named
"The Righteous Mind" where he argues that people don't really listen to
arguments or reasons. Guided by their emotions, they often come to a quick
conclusion what is good or bad, and this decision is in accordance with
their worldview and their moral system (regardless how skewed it may be). 
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/the-righteous-mind-by-jonatha
n-haidt.html?pagewanted=all
 &_r=0

-J.

Am 03.11.2012 21:18, schrieb Roger Critchlow: 

Here's how backward the conservative heart of america beats:
 
  http://www.thebaffler.com/past/the_long_con
 
-- rec --
 







FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

 


FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Jochen Fromm]

Interesting read. Sometimes we wonder why other peoples voting decisions 
are fundamentally different from ours even if all good reasons speak 
against it. Are they backward or brainwashed? Jonathan Haidt has written 
a book named "The Righteous Mind" where he argues that people don't 
really listen to arguments or reasons. Guided by their emotions, they 
often come to a quick conclusion what is good or bad, and this decision 
is in accordance with their worldview and their moral system (regardless 
how skewed it may be).
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/the-righteous-mind-by-jonathan-haidt.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 



-J.

Am 03.11.2012 21:18, schrieb Roger Critchlow:

Here's how backward the conservative heart of america beats:

   http://www.thebaffler.com/past/the_long_con

-- rec --




FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Owen Densmore]

I was surprised how complex the voting here was!  We just early-voted after
looking at the ballot,
http://www.santafecountynm.gov/userfiles/Pct_48.2.pdf
and checking the usual suspects (League of Women Voters, SF New Mexican).
 On one close call we even checked out a video between the two candidates.

Took 2 hours!  Hard to be a citizen.

Generally we do mail-in voting but were in Italy so had to do walk-in.
 Mail-in is nice: a good glass or two of wine/beer/booze, music, genial
conversation.

   -- Owen

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Carl Tollander]

Well, as someone who grew up in Nebraska and up until recently visited 
several times a year, I don't think its as weird a place as you 
portray.   The social networks formed in part from the state's rural 
origins, fallout from and reaction to politics (e.g. populist revolt, 
you could look it up) of the late 19th century, the formation of towns 
along the railroad routes, the relatively ethnically and religiously 
homogenous close-knit communities,  and of course a fair amount of 
gerrymand..., um, creative redistricting.   I don't think the 
republicanism has much to do with religious outlook, most churches seem 
to lean more progressive.   I just think most folks are pretty tolerant 
and try to get along, and they tend to vote the way their neighbors and 
relatives do. Because the next time the shit hits the fan (and in 
Nebraska, it does fairly regularly), they'll need them.


C.

On 11/3/12 12:48 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:


XKCD has a nice graphic about the red/blue history of the congress 
which shows the impacts of various events

http://www.xkcd.com/1127/

I have heard that in some states (Nebraska for instance) some people 
really fear that their souls go straight to hell if they vote for the 
democrats, although Obama is the best president the US had for a long 
time, and his actions are in deep agreement with true Christian values 
such as charity and care. How backwards is America's heartland??


-J.


Am 03.11.2012 18:44, schrieb Douglas Roberts:

Since you bring up the election, Jochen, see the attached graph for some
interesting correlations.  Equally interesting is that the impact of the
second and third debates are indiscernible.

--Doug

On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:


I have the impression that the list has become a bit quiet in the last
weeks. Are you involved in a campaign for one of the candidates? New Mexico
is a blue state, so most of you will be for President Obama. For a
European, it is hard to understand why one would make a different choice
anyway. What is your opinion on the presidential election?

Steven Pinker recently wrote a nice article why states are so red and
blue. Do you agree?
http://opinionator.blogs.**nytimes.com/2012/10/24/why-**
are-states-so-red-and-blue/

-J.





==**==
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps athttp://www.friam.org





FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps athttp://www.friam.org





FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Roger Critchlow]

Here's how backward the conservative heart of america beats:

  http://www.thebaffler.com/past/the_long_con

-- rec --

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Robert Holmes]

Oh, so you're a Romney supporter?

On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 1:04 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES  wrote:

> 
> P.S. I have a nice Gary Johnson sign outside my house.
>
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Jochen Fromm]

Perhaps Gary Johnson would be an interesting alternative. Although there 
is nothing better than Obama in my opinion: his humble beginnings are 
the proof that America is not ruled by a small number of super rich 
families.


-J.

Am 03.11.2012 20:04, schrieb ERIC P. CHARLES:


Jochen,
I was deep intrigued by the more detailed maps that were produced to
go along with the 2008 elections. I suspect Pinker is trying to explain a not
real phenomenon (such is often my impression with Pinker, but that's another
discussion). Take for example the "purple" graph at the bottom of this article:


Our country is not as geographically fractured as the talking heads want us to 
think.

Eric

P.S. I have a nice Gary Johnson sign outside my house.




On Sat, Nov  3, 2012 01:20 PM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
I have the impression that the list has become a bit quiet in the last

weeks. Are you involved in a campaign for one of the candidates? New
Mexico is a blue state, so most of you will be for President Obama. For
a European, it is hard to understand why one would make a different
choice anyway. What is your opinion on the presidential election?

Steven Pinker recently wrote a nice article why states are so red and
blue. Do you agree?
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/why-are-states-so-red-and-blue/

-J.






FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org







Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601







FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Douglas Roberts]

Even more backwards than you make it sound; that's how backwards this
country is.

Sent from Android.
On Nov 3, 2012 12:48 PM, "Jochen Fromm"  wrote:

>
> XKCD has a nice graphic about the red/blue history of the congress which
> shows the impacts of various events
> http://www.xkcd.com/1127/
>
> I have heard that in some states (Nebraska for instance) some people
> really fear that their souls go straight to hell if they vote for the
> democrats, although Obama is the best president the US had for a long time,
> and his actions are in deep agreement with true Christian values such as
> charity and care. How backwards is America's heartland?
>
> -J.
>
>
> Am 03.11.2012 18:44, schrieb Douglas Roberts:
>
> Since you bring up the election, Jochen, see the attached graph for some
> interesting correlations.  Equally interesting is that the impact of the
> second and third debates are indiscernible.
>
> --Doug
>
> On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Jochen Fromm  
>  wrote:
>
>
>
> I have the impression that the list has become a bit quiet in the last
> weeks. Are you involved in a campaign for one of the candidates? New Mexico
> is a blue state, so most of you will be for President Obama. For a
> European, it is hard to understand why one would make a different choice
> anyway. What is your opinion on the presidential election?
>
> Steven Pinker recently wrote a nice article why states are so red and
> blue. Do you agree?http://opinionator.blogs.**nytimes.com/2012/10/24/why-**
> are-states-so-red-and-blue/
>  
> 
>
> -J.
>
>
>
>
>
> ==**==
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[ERIC P. CHARLES]

Jochen,
I was deep intrigued by the more detailed maps that were produced to
go along with the 2008 elections. I suspect Pinker is trying to explain a not
real phenomenon (such is often my impression with Pinker, but that's another
discussion). Take for example the "purple" graph at the bottom of this article:


Our country is not as geographically fractured as the talking heads want us to 
think.

Eric

P.S. I have a nice Gary Johnson sign outside my house.




On Sat, Nov  3, 2012 01:20 PM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
I have the impression that the list has become a bit quiet in the last 
>weeks. Are you involved in a campaign for one of the candidates? New 
>Mexico is a blue state, so most of you will be for President Obama. For 
>a European, it is hard to understand why one would make a different 
>choice anyway. What is your opinion on the presidential election?
>
>Steven Pinker recently wrote a nice article why states are so red and 
>blue. Do you agree?
>http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/why-are-states-so-red-and-blue/
>
>-J.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>




Eric Charles
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Jochen Fromm]

XKCD has a nice graphic about the red/blue history of the congress which 
shows the impacts of various events

http://www.xkcd.com/1127/

I have heard that in some states (Nebraska for instance) some people 
really fear that their souls go straight to hell if they vote for the 
democrats, although Obama is the best president the US had for a long 
time, and his actions are in deep agreement with true Christian values 
such as charity and care. How backwards is America's heartland??


-J.


Am 03.11.2012 18:44, schrieb Douglas Roberts:

Since you bring up the election, Jochen, see the attached graph for some
interesting correlations.  Equally interesting is that the impact of the
second and third debates are indiscernible.

--Doug

On Sat, Nov 3, 2012 at 11:20 AM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:


I have the impression that the list has become a bit quiet in the last
weeks. Are you involved in a campaign for one of the candidates? New Mexico
is a blue state, so most of you will be for President Obama. For a
European, it is hard to understand why one would make a different choice
anyway. What is your opinion on the presidential election?

Steven Pinker recently wrote a nice article why states are so red and
blue. Do you agree?
http://opinionator.blogs.**nytimes.com/2012/10/24/why-**
are-states-so-red-and-blue/

-J.





==**==
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org





FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org



FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[FRIAM] The Presidential Election

[Jochen Fromm]

I have the impression that the list has become a bit quiet in the last 
weeks. Are you involved in a campaign for one of the candidates? New 
Mexico is a blue state, so most of you will be for President Obama. For 
a European, it is hard to understand why one would make a different 
choice anyway. What is your opinion on the presidential election?


Steven Pinker recently wrote a nice article why states are so red and 
blue. Do you agree?

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/24/why-are-states-so-red-and-blue/

-J.






FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org