Re: [FRIAM] Nondualism

[Benny Lichtner]

>
> In your terminology, the Dualist sees IS, etc. only as a threat to be
> hammered back into the ground (think Whack-a-Mole) while the NonDualist
> perhaps sees IS, etc. as a "natural" response to the conditions the
> participants have been put under.The Dualist, despite suffering acute
> fear-of-other may well be more-happy than the NonDualist who does not have
> the benefit of a "simple answer" who must suffer *some of* the same fear as
> the Dualist as well as the angst of guilt (perhaps) for recognizing one's
> part in the larger pattern yielding the acute symptoms underway.
>

I like this example/description, and it reminds me that a lot of
political/philosophical arguments seem to boil down to arguments about
causality, or which phenomena are more or less responsible for which other
phenomena.

In my experience, non-dualism is difficult enough to grasp fully, and rare
enough to find (in most of the western world), that I'm almost certain
there are lots of Important Goodies tucked away somewhere in there.

--Benny

On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 10:19 PM,  wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Snow Removal (Owen Densmore)
>2. Nondualism (glen)
>3. Re: Nondualism (Nick Thompson)
>4. Re: Nondualism (Steve Smith)
>5. Re: Nondualism (Nick Thompson)
>6. A physics question (Nick Thompson)
>7. Re: Nondualism (Steve Smith)
>8. Re: A physics question (Owen Densmore)
>9. Re: A physics question (Steve Smith)
>   10. Re: Nondualism (Carl)
>   11. Re: A physics question (Carl)
>   12. Re: A physics question (Sarbajit Roy)
>   13. Re: Nondualism (Nick Thompson)
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Owen Densmore 
> To: Complexity Coffee Group , Wedtech <
> wedt...@redfish.com>
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 11:19:34 -0700
> Subject: [FRIAM] Snow Removal
> Sorry for cross post, but:
>
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a good snow removal service?
>
>-- Owen
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: glen 
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Cc:
> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 2015 13:03:24 -0800
> Subject: [FRIAM] Nondualism
>
> OK.  I've had some chance to read a bit about this spiritualist concept of
> nondualism.  It's much too spiritual for me, since I don't believe in
> spirits or anything of the sort. >8^)
>
> But one question came to the front everytime I tried to read about it:
> Why do all these New Thought religions insist that their religious
> experiences always be _good_ or pleasant?  They always talk about being at
> peace or "at one with the universe" or whatnot.  I'm not a big fan of
> Christianity.  But at least, there, when you encounter an angel, it can be
> very frightening, almost Lovecraftian... and there's all this lore
> surrounding not being able to look God in the face and such.  I've had what
> I could easily call religious experiences (like the way time slowed to a
> crawl right before a car crash when I was in high school ... or the near
> catatonic state induced by Catholic Mass as a kid) and I'd say that maybe
> 2/3 of them were good or pleasant.  The rest were frightening or anxious,
> especially the "gestalt-busting" ones that caused me to rethink my whole
> world view.
>
> This is why the New Thought religions, including nondualism, seem like
> advertisements for multi-level marketing schemes... like Amway.  Become one
> of us and you, too, can own 3 mansions and a yaht!  They're only one or a
> few steps more interesting than things like the "prosperity gospel" (
> http://www.ourladyofperpetualexemption.com/).
>
> Why would religious experience necessarily be pleasant or good?
> (Especially as a former libertarian, the thought of becoming one with he
> universe is horrifying... It's socialist propoganda!  It's heat death!
> Run!  Run towards your perverted individuality!)
>
>
> On 11/02/2015 04:17 PM, Rich Murray wrote:
>
>> I enjoyed Friam for a few years -- glad to see a few others have ventured
>> into expanded awareness explorations, like Zen -- shared paranormal
>> experience is core to conveying mysticism -- this is becoming more
>> prominent in recent years with the proliferation of free video teaching,
>> crafted to induce expanded states in the viewers -- just Google
>> "nonduality" ... the style is to deepen the real-time process of intimate
>> communication about moment by moment raw experience, while 

[FRIAM] Windows Q

[Gillian Densmore]

I have no idea if the is the mailing list to ask

I have about enough of windows rebooting crashing and being a POS.

Is there anyway to get this crappy os to not insist on rebooting when I
don't want. Or spamming me with adds about crap I don't want (Java updates
and 10K spamware)
It's slower than cerillos traffic and sucking to use to the point that I'd
rather chuck the damn box off a tall building  and hit it with a large
mallet to the toon of the 1812 Overture.run it over and replace it with
something that's actually fun and simple to use.

I have checked it's update settings. nothing stands out, the neither Avast
or MS's Essentials reports malware or rootkits. Seven forums says uh just
reformat and start over. I somehow doubt that'd fix it.




-G

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Nondualism

[glen]

On 11/17/2015 05:25 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> More to the point, I think Glen is questioning the pervading idea that in the
> process of reducing this "distance" that we will naturally find more peace and
> happiness, or even that seeking peace and happiness is a worthy (or 
> reasonable?)
> goal?

Yes, that's very close to what I'm questioning.  The nondualism I've been 
reading about (avoiding the misapplication of more justified types) talks about 
the different _forms_ of reality being equivalent to every other form.  So, 
while there's the ability to "unify" in realizing that the different forms are 
all expressions of the underlying stuff, it's not reducible to the underlying 
stuff.  It _must_ be experienced at the "leaves".  You can't get to the "trunk" 
... indeed, there really is no "trunk".  The "unified" feeling you get during 
their spiritual experiences is an (temporary) ability to embrace this trunkless 
bush (which sounds kinda fractal to me).

But what I'm questioning more is why would we expect such an embracing to feel 
good?  Why can't it be terrifying and still be legitimate "enlightenment"?  My 
suspicion is that if I went in amongst a bunch of self-described nondualists 
and said I have such experiences and am always terrified by them, they would 
(perhaps without saying it) believe I'd gotten it WRONG... that somehow I 
wasn't doing it right.


On 11/17/2015 06:15 PM, Carl wrote:
> I subscribe to a more pragmatic take - Peace and Happiness are reinforcing 
> side-effects of praxis, the pursuit of clarity of one's process, in whatever 
> realm. P are not goals in themselves, worthy or not. The pursuit of them 
> can get in the way. Sort of like optimization ("Don't do it yet..") can.

But, again, why can't horror and discord be reinforcing side-effects of praxis? 
 Why are those emotions denigrated as things to avoid while P are elevated to 
idealistic positions?

> "It" is not, as the soap people would have us perceive, "All One". Dualism, 
> like politics, is local; there is a term in physics "emergent locality" that 
> I find compelling. What if the only monism is dualism? A gene is only what 
> you can do today with your genome, not a result of some global optimization.

I think "dualism is the only monism" gets at the point at least as well as my 
metaphor of the trunkless bush ... I dislike the trivial distinction between 
monism and dualism, though.  Dualism is a relatively trivial case of 
non-monism.  If this concept holds any truth, there are definitely more than 2 
paths, ways to be.  And, although it's tempting to claim that going from 1 to 2 
is more significant than, say, 2 to 3 ... or from 1e100 to its successor, that 
misses the forest for too much focus on the trees.

The question I'm asking, though, is why would we think it's a Good Thing to 
think beyond any given scope?  Not only intellectually, but emotionally.  Why 
would we expect it to feel good or be a pleasant feeling?

On 11/17/2015 10:48 PM, Rich Murray wrote:
> you can gaze this way in all directions at once, and also from ever vaster
> to ever tinier distances --
> 
> if a notable phase change of awareness happens, enjoy it, and gently seek
> to allow more, and more...

The former paragraph is very different, I think, from the latter paragraph.  
I'm _very_ attracted to the idea of swapping from one leaf to another leaf on 
the trunkless bush.  I've done that sort of thing for as long as I can 
remember.  But changing scopes is a different thing.  I do that, too.  But it's 
more sporadic and has more to do with what I do and don't eat than whatever 
ideology is coursing through the gel in my head.

Flitting from one locale to another (phase changes) seems appropriately tied to 
emotions.  E.g. putting yourself into the shoes of an impoverished Syrian with 
a wife and 3 children to take care of rightly induces a bit of anxiety, rather 
than pleasure.

But when we think of enlarging our scope, from our mundane little world of, 
say, paying bills or mowing the lawn, up to the scale of a comet flying through 
the solar system, or the center of a galactic whirl eating its steady diet, we 
tend to associate that with WONDER, and AWE... all those Good Things the 
mystics yap about constantly.  Why can't enlarging the scope cause fear and 
loathing?  And why would those emotions be any less legitimate?



--
⊥ glen ⊥


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Re: [FRIAM] Windows Q

[Owen Densmore]

It is difficult to do a clean install? I.e. put all your data on Dropbox or
some other cloud storage? Ditto for apps, make sure they are easy to
restore from an AppStore or elsewhere?

I find whenever I run into your problem I:
  - Use the Activity Monitor (mac) or equivalent (windows, linux) to check
for high CPU, Disk, Memory use, sometimes that showes the problem. In fact
I just did that and found Atom editor had problems with the Mac spell
checker!
  - Use a disk listing program like (mac) OmniDiskSweeper. I'm sure there's
a similar one for all systems. Clean up as well as I can from that. I'm
often surprised how much I don't need.
  - If that doesn't improve things then check recently installed apps being
bad.
  - Use the AppStore to do a clean install
  - Reinstall the apps and data.

   -- Owen

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 9:56 AM, Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> I have no idea if the is the mailing list to ask
>
> I have about enough of windows rebooting crashing and being a POS.
>
> Is there anyway to get this crappy os to not insist on rebooting when I
> don't want. Or spamming me with adds about crap I don't want (Java updates
> and 10K spamware)
> It's slower than cerillos traffic and sucking to use to the point that I'd
> rather chuck the damn box off a tall building  and hit it with a large
> mallet to the toon of the 1812 Overture.run it over and replace it with
> something that's actually fun and simple to use.
>
> I have checked it's update settings. nothing stands out, the neither Avast
> or MS's Essentials reports malware or rootkits. Seven forums says uh just
> reformat and start over. I somehow doubt that'd fix it.
>
>
>
>
> -G
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Windows Q

[Gary Schiltz]

I have no idea what version of Windows you have. From my limited recent
experience with MS OS’es, Windows 10 seems solid and efficient. I’d follow
the advice of saving relevant data to an external HD, install Windows 10
from scratch, and then reinstall whatever apps you really need. If you have
enough horsepower, install VirtualBox and try out a few Linux distros for
endless fun :-)  After a while, you might very well want to reverse the
process: install a Linux version as the base OS, install VirtualBox on
that, and install Windows 10 on that. If you do go that way, you can use
VMware’s free converter (www.vmware.com/products/converter) to save your
physical Windows 10 installation as a virtual machine, which can then be
run with VMware Player or VirtualBox under Linux after wiping and
installing a distro from scratch.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> I have no idea if the is the mailing list to ask
>
> I have about enough of windows rebooting crashing and being a POS.
>
> Is there anyway to get this crappy os to not insist on rebooting when I
> don't want. Or spamming me with adds about crap I don't want (Java updates
> and 10K spamware)
> It's slower than cerillos traffic and sucking to use to the point that I'd
> rather chuck the damn box off a tall building  and hit it with a large
> mallet to the toon of the 1812 Overture.run it over and replace it with
> something that's actually fun and simple to use.
>
> I have checked it's update settings. nothing stands out, the neither Avast
> or MS's Essentials reports malware or rootkits. Seven forums says uh just
> reformat and start over. I somehow doubt that'd fix it.
>
>
>
>
> -G
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Windows Q

[Gillian Densmore]

lol yeah admtedly while the admin side to ubuntu for me is little tricky.
It doesn't seem to have the issue of random spam.

For what it's worth it's a realy old dell with Windows 7 it was somewhat
top end when I got it.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 1:23 PM, Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> I have no idea what version of Windows you have. From my limited recent
> experience with MS OS’es, Windows 10 seems solid and efficient. I’d follow
> the advice of saving relevant data to an external HD, install Windows 10
> from scratch, and then reinstall whatever apps you really need. If you have
> enough horsepower, install VirtualBox and try out a few Linux distros for
> endless fun :-)  After a while, you might very well want to reverse the
> process: install a Linux version as the base OS, install VirtualBox on
> that, and install Windows 10 on that. If you do go that way, you can use
> VMware’s free converter (www.vmware.com/products/converter) to save your
> physical Windows 10 installation as a virtual machine, which can then be
> run with VMware Player or VirtualBox under Linux after wiping and
> installing a distro from scratch.
>
> On Wed, Nov 18, 2015 at 11:56 AM, Gillian Densmore  > wrote:
>
>> I have no idea if the is the mailing list to ask
>>
>> I have about enough of windows rebooting crashing and being a POS.
>>
>> Is there anyway to get this crappy os to not insist on rebooting when I
>> don't want. Or spamming me with adds about crap I don't want (Java updates
>> and 10K spamware)
>> It's slower than cerillos traffic and sucking to use to the point that
>> I'd rather chuck the damn box off a tall building  and hit it with a large
>> mallet to the toon of the 1812 Overture.run it over and replace it with
>> something that's actually fun and simple to use.
>>
>> I have checked it's update settings. nothing stands out, the neither
>> Avast or MS's Essentials reports malware or rootkits. Seven forums says uh
>> just reformat and start over. I somehow doubt that'd fix it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -G
>>
>>
>> 
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] A physics question

[Sarbajit Roy]

Check these study links too
http://www.physics.utoronto.ca/nonlinear/papers_icicles.html

On 11/18/15, Nick Thompson  wrote:
> That is such a great article.
>
> I loved the idea that a growing icicle is necessarily a hollow tube filled
> with water.
>
> Will change how I see them.
>
> N
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
> Clark University
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Sarbajit Roy
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2015 11:02 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A physics question
>
> Nice question. Probably needs more information though to answer for near
> some boundary conditions.
>
> http://www.igsoc.org:8080/journal/34/116/igs_journal_vol34_issue116_pg64-70.
> pdf
>
> "ABSTRACT : A theory of icicle growth is presented. ... A time-dependent
> computer model based on the theory shows that the growth of an icicle is a
> complicated process, which is very sensitive to the atmospheric conditions
> and water flux"
>
> I'm crossposting your query to some physics experts at
> http://www.physicstutordelhi.in to ask students as a test question
>
> On 11/18/15, Nick Thompson  wrote:
>> Chiefly for the Church Fathers of the Santa Fe Mother Church:
>>
>> Can one grow an icicle off the sunny side of a building if the air
>> temperature is above freezing?
>>
>> Nick
>>
>> Nicholas S. Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
>>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>


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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] Windows Q

[Tom Johnson]

Perhaps relevant:

"My boomerang is homeand the solution was something I'd never heard of,
so there is a chance it will help some of you.

First: Tried unplugging external drives as suggested. No help.

Ran chkdsk again. No help.

Ran memtest66. No help

Scanned with Dell online hardware troubleshooter (My system is Vestros
470). Nope

Uninstalled all MS updates for last 2 months. NopeAt this stage was
still getting freezes, BSOD, log off and shut down stalls. Decided  to try
Resource monitor. Couldn't get anything useful (to me, at least) there, but
saw a link to something in my Win7Pro system called*Reliability**
monitor. *Bingo!
Showed some problems were Windows ("We're working on a solution and will
get back to you when we find one"), but most were either the Dell datasafe
(included with the system) or a program I had installed months before and
forgotten about because I thought I hadn't activated it - a firewall call
*Glasswire**. *I uninstalled both the Dell and Glasswire programs, and have
been problem free for the last week...long enough to stop holding my
breath. The takeaway here is the Reliability Monitor may be a good addition
to your bag of tricks. Hope it helps. Thanks again to everyone for the many
suggestions.

Larry Aronberg, DPM"

--tj
On Nov 18, 2015 10:57 AM, "Gillian Densmore"  wrote:

> I have no idea if the is the mailing list to ask
>
> I have about enough of windows rebooting crashing and being a POS.
>
> Is there anyway to get this crappy os to not insist on rebooting when I
> don't want. Or spamming me with adds about crap I don't want (Java updates
> and 10K spamware)
> It's slower than cerillos traffic and sucking to use to the point that I'd
> rather chuck the damn box off a tall building  and hit it with a large
> mallet to the toon of the 1812 Overture.run it over and replace it with
> something that's actually fun and simple to use.
>
> I have checked it's update settings. nothing stands out, the neither Avast
> or MS's Essentials reports malware or rootkits. Seven forums says uh just
> reformat and start over. I somehow doubt that'd fix it.
>
>
>
>
> -G
>
>
> 
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com