Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again
Glen/Marcus - Once again, a nicely chewy (if mildly pithy) exchange here: To try to summarize my own responses... I think Glen is suggesting (via Aaronson quotes/references) that some folks believe that by invoking an aphorism of a well-respected/famous person and finding fault with it (sneering?) that they thereby gain some of the power that person has (socially?) not unlike a cannibal-warrior eating a vanquished opponent's organ of choice. Or racing for pink slips? As for "Apex Predator of the Signalling World", I assume that the allusion is to replacing the actual discussion at hand in an arguement or investigation with a meta-discussion, a superset of ad-hominism? FWIW I've just been watching Hugh Laurie's new (to me) role as Dr. Chance (Neuropsychologist cum Vigilante) in the Hulu series of that name (Chance), who is doing his own version of Walter White-style breaking bad, and there are a lot of parallels to what I *think* you are pointing out here. Regarding this Robinson fellow, he does *seem to be* a lot more credible (or grounded, or ???) than most of his brethren in arms. Given that both of you have a strong contrarian streak of your own, I want to be careful in observing that "contrarianism" is one of the stronger signals (in my experience) for conspiracy whackadoodlery. Just as with cinema, food, literary and really any form of criticism it is generally easier to let someone else do the heavy lifting of building something up and then just come along and chisel away at some of the weak spots and claim to have done something equally worthy (or meaningful or utilitarian?), not unlike the original point made by Aaronson above. Another signature element in my experience is strong examples of confirmation bias. "mainstream science" is also guilty of same, and perhaps that is what "alt science" legitimately has a claim against them (us?) for, is that there are *structural* biases built into funding and peer-review/publication. That said, there has to be some useful "corollary" to the idea of "just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!". Maybe "just because you recognize and call out the biases of that which is mainstream doesn't make YOUR contrarian biases any more legitimate"? I'm not personally that focused on cancer itself, but am generally interested in human metabolism and the effects of the "diseases of affluence" that our first-world lives lead us to. I find this to be an interesting microcosm of the global scale issues such as global climate change, travel-aggravated-epidemics, and diversity collapse. I found it acutely interesting that Robinson (and colleagues) would play the "hedge" of "if there is climate change, it seems to be good for humanity!". Why can't they take those two issues fully independently and corroborate the "mainstream"s observations about the anthropogenic effects they CAN observe and then maybe (or not) make their own case for evaluating (not cherry picking) models of ways that might "help" the biosphere (or even the anthroposphere)? I may be being sloppy, but it seems to me that there is a strong correlation between mere "contrarian" and a more insidious "strong conflation". This leaves me wondering if there are natural language processing tools suitable for identifying these kinds of structural failures in written discussion/arguement? Maybe Google is doing this already and using the results to mine what is superficially fringe/crackpot/pseudo-science for the real thing (revolutionary science marginalized by the mainstream?) Carry On, - Steve On 10/12/17 4:25 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: Like upsides to global warming, perhaps there are benefits to the irrationality of scientists, like Robinson's and others'. It suggests that science is an activity or an algorithm, that can be conducted in parallel with arbitrary if closely-held beliefs. But I'm cynical. I'm inclined to think the scientific method is just a weapon in the hands of a sufficiently wacko person to pummel the world into a form they think they can manage or profit from. Better have more non-wacko people with the same skills to balance things out. Sure, there is herd behavior in all kinds of people, even the science-policy elites in Washington. Is there some harm being done by them other than to direct money in a worthy direction that happens not to be to him? The contrarian needs to be clever to navigate these things and do more than complain. Marcus "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? ? Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 4:01 PM To: FriAMSubject: Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again Yep. One of my homunculi does that to his brethren. This came out today: The Grandfather Of Alt-Science
Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again
On 10/12/2017 03:25 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >> The Grandfather Of Alt-Science >> https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-grandfather-of-alt-science/ > > Like upsides to global warming, perhaps there are benefits to the > irrationality of scientists, like Robinson's and others'. > It suggests that science is an activity or an algorithm, that can be > conducted in parallel with arbitrary if closely-held beliefs. > But I'm cynical. I'm inclined to think the scientific method is just a > weapon in the hands of a sufficiently wacko person to pummel the world into a > form they think they can manage or profit from. Better have more non-wacko > people with the same skills to balance things out. Sure, there is herd > behavior in all kinds of people, even the science-policy elites in > Washington. Is there some harm being done by them other than to direct > money in a worthy direction that happens not to be to him? The contrarian > needs to be clever to navigate these things and do more than complain. I agree for the most part, especially given the false reification surrounding the scientific method. Woo peddlers and conspiracy theorists rely on the real hermeneutical depth of real science as cover for their rhetoric. The real benefit of thinking seriously about Robinson (or other pseudoscience like acupuncture, or even things like informal fallacies) is as a foil for learning what *to* do, from examples of what *not* to do. If the Robinsons of the world were earnest failures, they'd be wholesome contributors to science. But because they're deluded, blind to their failures, it is difficult to learn from them. This post makes the argument nicely: The Case for Contrarianism http://quillette.com/2017/10/10/the-case-for-contrarianism/ from the post: > So even if Gilley’s paper does as little to support its conclusion as its > critics seem to think, it nonetheless might have provided a valuable service > to the anti-colonial literature, by making a case at all. That would provide > anti-colonial academics something to point to and say: “Here is the best case > for colonialism available. It’s very bad, and so it’s reasonable to conclude > that the case against colonialism is much stronger than the case for > colonialism.” This helps actually to buttress the field’s theoretical > foundations, especially as a pedagogical matter. Nor will it do for critics > to say simply that the paper could find a place in a discipline with > different foundations. If we hope to achieve with our intellectual inquiry > even roughly objective knowledge of reality, we must go beyond having a field > that assumes P and a field that assumes not-P – we must investigate whether > or not P is actually true. -- ☣ gⅼеɳ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again
Like upsides to global warming, perhaps there are benefits to the irrationality of scientists, like Robinson's and others'. It suggests that science is an activity or an algorithm, that can be conducted in parallel with arbitrary if closely-held beliefs. But I'm cynical. I'm inclined to think the scientific method is just a weapon in the hands of a sufficiently wacko person to pummel the world into a form they think they can manage or profit from. Better have more non-wacko people with the same skills to balance things out. Sure, there is herd behavior in all kinds of people, even the science-policy elites in Washington. Is there some harm being done by them other than to direct money in a worthy direction that happens not to be to him? The contrarian needs to be clever to navigate these things and do more than complain. Marcus "It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? ? Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 4:01 PM To: FriAMSubject: Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again Yep. One of my homunculi does that to his brethren. This came out today: The Grandfather Of Alt-Science https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-grandfather-of-alt-science/ Anyone whose spent any time in Oregon knows this whack job. And my apex predator of the signaling world homunculus yells at me to hate him as the crackpot he clearly is, as well as his neolithic social postions. But *most* of my other homunculi have immense respect for someone who hacks their own path through the thicket, going to bat for every wannabe crackpot or inventor who spends their spare time breathing solder smoke in the basement or suffers regular chemical burns because they care more about their objective than safety. Yes, DIY biology is dangerous. But hey, we can't all work in the belly of some bureaucratic leviathan. On 10/12/2017 02:44 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > "Apex predator of the signaling world." > > Cute, know it well. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? ? > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 3:37 PM > To: FriAM > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again > > I know. I just thought it was an interesting post. That we'd recently > discussed Feynman was only a segue. I could also have used Russell as the > segue, since Marcus quoted him in our thread. > > The 1st part of Aaronson's post re: Gowers is more interesting than the later > stuff. > > On 10/12/2017 02:26 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: >> I took issue not with Feynman as a person ... > >> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3488 >> >>> if you write, for example, that Richard Feynman was a self-aggrandizing >>> chauvinist showboater, then even if your remarks have a nonzero inner >>> product with the truth, you don’t thereby “transcend” Feynman and stand >>> above him, in the same way that set theory transcends and stands above >>> arithmetic by constructing a model for it. Feynman’s achievements don’t >>> thereby become your achievements. > > > -- > ☣ gⅼеɳ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe > at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > -- ☣ gⅼеɳ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again
Yep. One of my homunculi does that to his brethren. This came out today: The Grandfather Of Alt-Science https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-grandfather-of-alt-science/ Anyone whose spent any time in Oregon knows this whack job. And my apex predator of the signaling world homunculus yells at me to hate him as the crackpot he clearly is, as well as his neolithic social postions. But *most* of my other homunculi have immense respect for someone who hacks their own path through the thicket, going to bat for every wannabe crackpot or inventor who spends their spare time breathing solder smoke in the basement or suffers regular chemical burns because they care more about their objective than safety. Yes, DIY biology is dangerous. But hey, we can't all work in the belly of some bureaucratic leviathan. On 10/12/2017 02:44 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > "Apex predator of the signaling world." > > Cute, know it well. > > -Original Message- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? ? > Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 3:37 PM > To: FriAM> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again > > I know. I just thought it was an interesting post. That we'd recently > discussed Feynman was only a segue. I could also have used Russell as the > segue, since Marcus quoted him in our thread. > > The 1st part of Aaronson's post re: Gowers is more interesting than the later > stuff. > > On 10/12/2017 02:26 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: >> I took issue not with Feynman as a person ... > >> https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3488 >> >>> if you write, for example, that Richard Feynman was a self-aggrandizing >>> chauvinist showboater, then even if your remarks have a nonzero inner >>> product with the truth, you don’t thereby “transcend” Feynman and stand >>> above him, in the same way that set theory transcends and stands above >>> arithmetic by constructing a model for it. Feynman’s achievements don’t >>> thereby become your achievements. > > > -- > ☣ gⅼеɳ > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > -- ☣ gⅼеɳ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again
"Apex predator of the signaling world." Cute, know it well. -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? ? Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 3:37 PM To: FriAMSubject: Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again I know. I just thought it was an interesting post. That we'd recently discussed Feynman was only a segue. I could also have used Russell as the segue, since Marcus quoted him in our thread. The 1st part of Aaronson's post re: Gowers is more interesting than the later stuff. On 10/12/2017 02:26 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > I took issue not with Feynman as a person ... > https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3488 > >> if you write, for example, that Richard Feynman was a self-aggrandizing >> chauvinist showboater, then even if your remarks have a nonzero inner >> product with the truth, you don’t thereby “transcend” Feynman and stand >> above him, in the same way that set theory transcends and stands above >> arithmetic by constructing a model for it. Feynman’s achievements don’t >> thereby become your achievements. -- ☣ gⅼеɳ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again
I know. I just thought it was an interesting post. That we'd recently discussed Feynman was only a segue. I could also have used Russell as the segue, since Marcus quoted him in our thread. The 1st part of Aaronson's post re: Gowers is more interesting than the later stuff. On 10/12/2017 02:26 PM, Nick Thompson wrote: > I took issue not with Feynman as a person ... > https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3488 > >> if you write, for example, that Richard Feynman was a self-aggrandizing >> chauvinist showboater, then even if your remarks have a nonzero inner >> product with the truth, you don’t thereby “transcend” Feynman and stand >> above him, in the same way that set theory transcends and stands above >> arithmetic by constructing a model for it. Feynman’s achievements don’t >> thereby become your achievements. -- ☣ gⅼеɳ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again
Glen, etc. I took issue not with Feynman as a person, but with the off-quoted "aphorism", attributed to him, that scientists have no more use for philosophy of science than birds have for ornithology. The only reason birds don't have use for ornithology is that they can't read. I assume that that disability does not apply to the scientists mentioned in the aphorism. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ -Original Message- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of g??? ? Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2017 3:03 PM To: FriAMSubject: [FRIAM] on Feynman, again Since we recently went 'round about quoting and criticizing people who quote Feynman, I thought this would be interesting. https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3488 > if you write, for example, that Richard Feynman was a self-aggrandizing > chauvinist showboater, then even if your remarks have a nonzero inner product > with the truth, you don’t thereby “transcend” Feynman and stand above him, in > the same way that set theory transcends and stands above arithmetic by > constructing a model for it. Feynman’s achievements don’t thereby become > your achievements. -- ☣ gⅼеɳ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
[FRIAM] on Feynman, again
Since we recently went 'round about quoting and criticizing people who quote Feynman, I thought this would be interesting. https://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=3488 > if you write, for example, that Richard Feynman was a self-aggrandizing > chauvinist showboater, then even if your remarks have a nonzero inner product > with the truth, you don’t thereby “transcend” Feynman and stand above him, in > the same way that set theory transcends and stands above arithmetic by > constructing a model for it. Feynman’s achievements don’t thereby become > your achievements. -- ☣ gⅼеɳ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] Chriopracter(sp) what takes insurances?
Moving the hurting part might somehow help it heal. I have no idea how. or why though. Chi Gong excersizes, yoga, resting the neck on a rolled pillow and just getting up and moving, walking etc.Is helping the tech Nech part. I have no idea why. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 9:47 AM, ┣glen┫wrote: > That's interesting. Tennis doesn't strike me as particularly good for any > part of the body, especially all that herky-jerky jumping back and forth. > But there's no doubt that *any* activity is good. And "alive" coordination > with and against other actors in the world is a notch above what I do. > There are 3 basic tiers: 1) canalized activity like weight machines or > treadmills (or typing), 2) full 4D "space-filling" activity like free > weights, calisthenics, or rock climbing, and then 3) engaging a living > system like sparring or team sports. > > On 10/11/2017 07:27 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > > My lower back pain has almost completely disappeared since I've been > playing tennis three days a week. Ironically, I think it's from bending > over to pick up balls rather than from running and striking the ball. On > the other hand, some of the other elders that I play with have been injured > by falls, etc. > > -- > ␦glen? > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] Chriopracter(sp) what takes insurances?
OH! that sounds like one of Scot Mcneally(?)'s projects while he was at SUN. I simply don't know if if was a SUN per SUN project or one of personel interest. Andy Ruhen (Android guy) I thought had something like that in the works before his stint with Google I/O Sunk Works. On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 9:37 AM, ┣glen┫wrote: > Yes! I've forgotten who proposed it. But what ever happened to the CPU > fabric we were supposed to line our walls with so that our computing would > wander around with us, flowing from wall to wall as we walked around? I > supposed I'd settle for some sort of AR or HUD that paints whatever's there > with information, but equipped with accelerometers for 3D organization. > > On 10/11/2017 11:58 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > > Now I need some large monitors on the wall for reading documents. > Like a 20x1 aspect ratio so I can find things quickly, by walking. > > > -- > ␦glen? > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
Re: [FRIAM] Chriopracter(sp) what takes insurances?
That's interesting. Tennis doesn't strike me as particularly good for any part of the body, especially all that herky-jerky jumping back and forth. But there's no doubt that *any* activity is good. And "alive" coordination with and against other actors in the world is a notch above what I do. There are 3 basic tiers: 1) canalized activity like weight machines or treadmills (or typing), 2) full 4D "space-filling" activity like free weights, calisthenics, or rock climbing, and then 3) engaging a living system like sparring or team sports. On 10/11/2017 07:27 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > My lower back pain has almost completely disappeared since I've been playing > tennis three days a week. Ironically, I think it's from bending over to pick > up balls rather than from running and striking the ball. On the other hand, > some of the other elders that I play with have been injured by falls, etc. -- ␦glen? FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove